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Yael
2017-04-28, 03:54 AM
I'm about to run a roll20 adventure set in Rokugan (using most L5R books, but with the d20 system), and I thought about implementing ToB there.

I know it doesn't quite "feel" like Rokugan, mostly because the maneuvers and stances are pretty much stronger than any class there (except for the tier 1 casters), but I wanted some advice, here.

Would it be a good idea implementing them? And if so, any change to do to ToB's maneuvers (regarding key skills, or something else.)

Florian
2017-04-28, 04:22 AM
This is actually pretty simple. You might want to associate one major school with every clan and give the samurai class automatic access to half Swordsage maneuver/Stance advancement, courtier and shugenja quarter that. The Different School and Advanced School feats work as intending, letting you either deviate from you clans associated school or add a different clans school.

Uncle Pine
2017-04-28, 04:52 AM
I know it doesn't quite "feel" like Rokugan, mostly because the maneuvers and stances are pretty much stronger than any class there (except for the tier 1 casters), but I wanted some advice, here.
If you follow this line of reasoning, why should t1 classes be included in the setting to begin with? If a new option sits right in the middle of the floor and the ceiling of what can already be done, then by definition it won't break the pre-established balance, unless it interacts with other options in unforeseen ways.

I think Florian's idea of splitting schools into the various clans fits the way Rokugan is organized nicely. Moreover, both ToB and Rokugan are deeply influenced by the same source (the Far East (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FarEast) and other wuxia stuff) so it shouldn't be too difficult to just mix the two of them.

BWR
2017-04-28, 12:05 PM
Some stuff I found on the WOTC boards years ago. Can't remember who did it, but here's what little of it I did get. There may be more floating around out there but I haven't checked.


IAIJUTSU DUELS

In order to participate meaningfully in an iaijutsu duel, both samurai must have prepared an iaijutsu strike. Theoretically, another martial strike could be used, but since the duelists must both begin with swords sheathed, it would be rather difficult.

Stance: In the first round of an iaijutsu duel, the two samurai stand a few steps apart and appraise each other, looking for signs of their opponent’s skill, training, and reflex in the samurai’s martial stance. Many duels go no further: One samurai concedes victory to the other, recognizing a clearly superior opponent. Such duels are the only bloodless iaijutsu duels. Conceding in this manner is not dishonorable.
After the duelists assume their stances, they each make a Martial Lore check. The check result determines how much information they discern about the other samurai:

Code:
MARTIAL
LORE DC INFORMATION GLEANED
15 Opposing samurai’s stance
20 Opposing samurai’s initiator level
25 Level of highest maneuver prepared and highest iaijutsu strike prepared

Focus: Both duelists make an opposed initiator level check to focus their ki; if you can make iaijutsu strikes as a standard action, you gain a +4 bonus on this check. If you do not have an initiator level, you can substitute a standard initiative check (and you probably shouldn’t be in an iaijutsu duel).

Strike: After the initiator level check, both duelists draw their katanas and strike. The result of the check replaces each character’s normal initiative roll unless the character’s normal initiative modifier (Dexterity modifier plus feat bonuses) is better than her initiator level, in which case she makes a normal initiative check.

The duel begins when each duelist draws her katana and strikes. The initiative winner strikes first, naturally, and initiates any iaijutsu strike maneuver she has prepared. The initiative loser, if she survives, must attack on her action as well-she cannot hold back the ki she has focused. Note that since the loser is not attacking a flat-footed foe, she does not get the opportunity to initiate an iaijutsu strike.

If the initiative check is a tie, the strikes actually occur simultaneously, with both samurai considered flat-footed. On rare occasions, two samurai have been known to strike each other down in the same instant in what is called a karmic strike. If a duelist does not know any iaijutsu strike maneuvers, she has a single standard action in which she can act in the first round. If she can draw her sword as a free or swift action (for example, if she has the Quick Draw feat), then she can either make a normal melee attack, or initiate a standard action martial strike. Otherwise, she can do nothing other than draw her weapon, and must wait until the next round to act. After the initial round of the duel, the two samurai can continue fighting in normal combat, if both survive. They can no longer initiate iaijutsu maneuvers unless the circumstances under which such can be initiated somehow arise again in the course of the fight (one samurai returns her sword to its sheathe and the other becomes flat-footed).


UNIVERSAL MANEUVERS

THE EMPIRE RESTS ON ITS EDGE
Universal (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn

The first common truth that Mirumoto Uso and Kakita Kaiten discovered about their ancestors’ styles is that both men applied the art of the sword to every aspect of life. Each endeavor requires devotion, training, and a goal. Those who learn this maneuver realize that everything must be treated as if it rests upon the edge of a sword. When you first learn this maneuver, choose a single Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom-based skill you know. When you initiate this maneuver, you gain a competence bonus on all attack rolls equal to one fourth of the chosen skill’s bonus (rounded up).

IAIJUTSU STRIKE
Universal (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisites: One iaijutsu strike maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

This ancient technique is taught all over the Empire, though its greatest masters are found in the Kakita family of the Crane clan. It is used both on the battlefield and in formal iaijutsu duels, and is widely considered the very pinnacle of the art of the sword. You draw your katana and strike with it in one fluid motion. In order to use this maneuver, you must begin the round with your sword sheathed. This maneuver allows you to draw your weapon and then make a single melee attack, dealing an extra 10d6 damage. An iaijutsu strike can only be initiated against a flat-footed opponent or an inanimate object.

IAIJUTSU STRIKE, GREATER
Universal (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisites: Two iaijutsu strike maneuvers

This maneuver functions like iaijutsu strike, except as noted above and that it deals an extra 20d6 damage.

IAIJUTSU STRIKE, LEAST
Universal (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Prerequisites: None
This maneuver functions like iaijutsu strike, except as noted above and that it deals an extra 2d6 damage.

IAIJUTSU STRIKE, LESSER
Universal (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisites: None
This maneuver functions like iaijutsu strike, except as noted above and that it deals an extra 6d6 damage.

STANDING ON THE HEAVENS
Universal (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
The ultimate lessons of Kakita and Mirumoto teach that the blade is a living thing, guided by the soul of the samurai. Like anything that is alive, it is bound by the will of the Heavens in action-though a truly skilled samurai can stand above the Celestial Pattern to get a better understanding of destiny. It is this view of the world and its patterns as a whole that leads to ultimate mastery, not only of the sword, but of one’s own destiny. This maneuver focuses the samurai’s soul to be an indomitable force that is assured of the outcome of a fight-his victory.
When you would otherwise be struck in combat, you can initiate this maneuver to force the attack roll to be rerolled.

STRIKING AS EARTH
Universal (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

This simple stance draws upon the vast inner reserves of Earth within the body. Just as Earth is shielded from harm, so does it often fail to perceive the world around it. You suffer a +2 natural armor bonus for the duration, but suffer a -2 penalty to all Wisdom- and Charisma-based skill checks.

STRIKING AS FIRE
Universal (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

This simple stance is adaptable to any weapon or empty hand. Schools that primarily focus on speed over power teach this stance right away, improving the accuracy and repetition of a student’s strike. While using this stance, you gain a +1 insight bonus to melee attack rolls and initiative checks, but suffer a -2 penalty to all weapon damage rolls.

STRIKING AS WATER
Universal (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Focusing on pure strength, Striking as Water brings to bear the power of Water, sacrificing precision for the pure ability to inflict damage. Given the nature of this stance, however, bladed weapons gain no benefit from it (though penalties still apply). Only bludgeoning weapons or unarmed attacks benefit from Striking as Water. While using this stance, you gain a +2 insight bonus on all melee damage rolls, but suffer a -2 penalty to your initiative check and all attack rolls.

STRIKING AS WIND
Universal (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

This stance relies upon speed and maneuverability at the cost of all else. Striking as Wind allows phenomenally quick movements at the cost of both power and accuracy. While using this stance, you gain a +6 insight bonus to your initiative check, but suffer a -3 penalty to all attack and damage rolls.

STRIKING AS VOID
Universal (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisites: Four elemental stances
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Three rounds

Striking as Void broadens the mind so that other stances may be utilized more easily. It allows you to use two stances simultaneously. You must name a second stance (aside from the one you are currently using) when you initiate this maneuver, and you cannot thereafter change it.

THE VICTORY OF THE RIVER
Universal (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Central to the master’s control of swordplay is the relaxation of mind and body. This maneuver helps the samurai to adapt to the changing tides of warfare and the art of combat. In this stance, the samurai’s strikes flow beautifully and cleanly; ten strikes blend into one flowing arc of steel. The strikes this stance favors flow together, causing one effective attack to create another, and then another.
For each successful attack you make against an opponent while in this stance, all additional melee attacks you make against that opponent in the same round receive a cumulative +5 insight bonus.

THE VICTORY OF THE WIND
Universal (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

In both the art of iaijutsu and in a skirmish, the master of the sword understands that it is not he who strikes first who is victorious, but he who strikes first with perfect form. This stance enforces the idea that a hindered man strikes slowly and poorly, and the man who can attack with precision and speed is to be feared. By focusing on disabling the opponent instead of overpowering him, this stance’s quick, shallow strikes take advantage of opponents who attack with sheer force.
Each time you deal 10 or more points of damage with a single melee attack against an opponent, you gain a cumulative +1 insight bonus to attack that opponent, to a maximum of half your initiator level.

THE WORLD IS EMPTY
Universal (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn

Both Mirumoto Hojatsu and Kakita were mortal men, but ones who walked alongside the Kami in the armies that defeated the Dark Brother Fu Leng. Even though they were not as powerful as the Kami, they found that seven mortals could reach within to find a point of perfection: the Void. Both men sought to hone this ability through training with the sword. This maneuver, a natural outgrowth of their styles, draws out and expends this inner power in a swift display of awesome skill. The focus of this maneuver is more intense than most, and it strains a samurai who uses it.
When you initiate this maneuver, you gain an insight bonus to all rolls equal to the number of maneuvers you have ready. All of your maneuvers are expended by this boost, and at its end you become fatigued. You cannot recover your maneuvers or recover from your fatigue until you rest for at least one hour.

THE WAY OF THE CRANE

1. Watchful Falcon: Stance-Gain a +4 bonus to Sense Motive, Spot, and Search checks, and a -2 penalty on Diplomacy and Bluff checks.
1. Way of the Crane: Stance-Gain a +1/5 levels bonus to initiative and draw your katana or wakizashi as a swift action. Use iaijutsu more effectively.
1. Wielding the Inner Fire: Boost-Refocus initiative as a move action.

2. One Strike Blade: Boost-For every attack you sacrifice in a round, add +5 to your initiative in later rounds.
2. Strength of the Crane Thunder: Stance-Gain a +1/4 levels morale bonus to all attacks when fighting alongside other Cranes.
2. Strike Beneath the Veil: Strike-Gain extra attack.

3. The Force of Honor: Boost-Gain damage reduction based on initiator level.
3. Silent Talon: Stance-Gain a +2 competence bonus to all Hide and Move Silently checks and to saves against divinations, and +2d6 sudden strike.
3. Moving the Shadow: Stance-Gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to the armor check penalty (if any) of the opponent striking you.
3. Strike at the Heart: Counter-Attack an opponent who readies an action against you and cause the action to be lost.

4. Blade of Whispers: Boost-Add your total Diplomacy bonus to all attack rolls using the katana.
4. Hoturi’s Speed: Counter-Re-roll any attack roll that misses with a +2 bonus.
4. Kakita's Technique: Counter-Make an iaijutsu strike against a charging opponent.
4. Strike from the Void: Boost-Deal maximum damage with an iaijutsu strike.
4. Unforgiving Steel: Counter-If an opponent attacks you and misses the roll by more than 5 points, immediately make a counter-attack.

5. Doji’s Scrutiny: Boost-Gain a +10 insight bonus on attack roll with successful Spot check.
5. One Strike, Two Cuts: Strike-Make two attacks with a katana as a standard action.
5. Iron Feather: Strike-Deal triple damage with a melee attack against a flat-footed opponent.

6. One Leg Stance: Stance-Make one additional attack at your highest base attack bonus, but sacrifice your mobility.
6. Spirit Strike: Stance-Gain a +1/4 levels bonus to initiative and draw your katana or wakizashi as a free action. Use iaijutsu more effectively.

7. Strike with No Thought: Counter-Make an iaijutsu strike when opponent closes range.
7. To Tread on the Sword: Boost-Prevent opponent from initiating maneuvers against you.

8. Echoes of the Edge: Strike-Strike at a creature an additional time as a swift action, if you successfully damage the target on the initial strike.

9. True Iaijutsu Strike: Strike-Draw katana and deal 30d6 damage against flat-footed opponent.


BLADE OF WHISPERS
Crane [Kakita] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisites: Two Kakita maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn

The Blades of Hoturi train in the basic diversification of skills that made Hoturi so talented, learning subtlety both in the courts and on the battlefield. This maneuver allows you to add half your Diplomacy bonus (rounded up) to attack rolls using the katana.

DOJI’S SCRUTINY
Crane [Doji] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisite: 1 Doji maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn

None of the Kami were as Perceptive and insightful as the Lady Doji. The Doji Elite Guards learn the techniques she once used. When you initiate this maneuver, you make a Spot check against a single opponent (DC 20). If successful, you gain a +10 insight bonus on all attack rolls against that opponent.

ECHOES OF THE EDGE
Crane [Kakita] (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisites: Three Kakita maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

This maneuver allows you to strike at a creature an additional time as long as you successfully damage the target on the initial strike. This additional attack is resolved at your highest base attack bonus and must be directed at the same creature your previous attack struck; the strike lands on precisely the same location as the cut before, but slices yet deeper. If this strike hits, it deals an amount of damage equal to the previous strike. If the previous strike was a critical hit, this free strike is a critical hit as well and it inflicts the same damage as the prior strike. If this strike echoes an iaijutsu strike delivered from the spirit strike stance, it is visible (though still incredibly fast).

THE FORCE OF HONOR
Crane [Daidoji] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: 1 Daidoji maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round

Bushi of the Daidoji Yojimbo school learn to focus their inner strength to greatly increase their endurance. This boost grants damage reduction 1/- per two initiator levels. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0. (That is, you cannot actually gain hit points in this manner.)

HOTURI’S SPEED
Crane [Kakita] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisites: Two Kakita maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

So great was the speed of Hoturi that even a missed strike was not a failure. If one of your melee attacks misses, you can initiate this maneuver to reroll that attack roll with a +2 bonus.

IAIJUTSU STRIKE, TRUE
Crane [Kakita] (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 9, Warblade 9
Prerequisites: Four Kakita maneuvers, two iaijutsu strike maneuvers

This maneuver is the pinnacle of Kakita’s art, and only the greatest Kakita duelists ever learn it. It functions like iaijutsu strike, except as noted above and that it deals an extra 30d6 damage.

KAKITA’S TECHNIQUE
Crane [Kakita] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisites: Two Kakita maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

As your mastery of Kakita’s teachings increases, your deadliness in combat grows. When an opponent charges you, you can initiate this maneuver and simultaneously initiate any iaijutsu strike maneuver that you have readied. The strike is resolved before that of your opponent, and she is considered flat-footed. In order to initiate this counter, you must have your sword sheathed and be able to execute iaijutsu strikes as a standard action.

MOVING THE SHADOW
Crane [Daidoji] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisites: Two Daidoji maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Bushi of the Daidoji Yojimbo school are taught to dodge and move in ways that force their opponents to work against the restrictions of their own armor. While in this stance, you gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to the armor check penalty (if any) of the opponent striking you.

ONE LEG STANCE
Crane (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisites: Three Crane maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Like a crane, the warrior tucks one leg beneath her body, performing a flurry of rapid strikes all about them. While in this stance, you may make one additional attack each round at your highest base attack bonus. However, while in this stance your speed is halved, and you cannot run or charge.

ONE STRIKE BLADE
Crane [Kakita] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

The Kakita bushi use this technique to emulate the speed and accuracy of their founder. This maneuver can only be initiated at the beginning of your turn, before a full attack action. You choose to forgo one or more of your iterative attacks, starting with the one with the lowest bonus, and in exchange gain a +5 bonus per attack to your initiative in subsequent rounds.

ONE STRIKE, TWO CUTS
Crane [Kakita] (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisites: Two Kakita maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

You wield the katana with the grace and elegance of a Kakita master. This maneuver allows you to make two attacks with a katana at your highest base attack bonus. Both attacks must be directed against the same target.

SILENT TALON
Crane [Daidoji] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisites: One Daidoji maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

A Daidoji Harrier strikes from the shadows, catching her prey unaware and cutting them down before they can respond to her. While in this stance, you gain a +2 competence bonus to all Hide and Move Silently checks, and gain +2 to saves versus any divination spells or magic that would reveal your location or identity.

In addition, while you are in this stance you gain the sudden strike ability, if you do not already have it, which deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. If you already have the sudden strike class feature, your existing sudden strike ability deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. See the ninja class feature for a complete description of sudden strike.

SPIRIT STRIKE
Crane [Kakita] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisites: Two Kakita maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

A more advanced version of Way of the Crane, this was the stance favored by the legendary Kakita himself. While you are in this stance, you gain a bonus to Initiative rolls equal to 1/4 your initiator level.

In addition, you can initiate iaijutsu strike maneuvers as a standard action instead of a full round action. At the end of such maneuvers, you can resheathe your katana as a swift action. This strike is so fast that no blood stains your blade, and the victim may not initially realize he has been cut. (A successful Spot check opposed by your initiator level check allows an observer to notice a faint blur about the target as the strike connects.)

Finally, this stance allows you to take a swift action during the first round of an iaijutsu duel, either before or after your iaijutsu strike.

STRENGTH OF THE CRANE THUNDER
Crane [Daidoji] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

The first lesson taught to the Daidoji Heavy Regulars is that of solidarity. While in this stance, if you are fighting alongside at least one other Crane (an ally within 30 feet), you gain a morale bonus on attack rolls equal to 1/4 your initiator level (minimum +1).

STRIKE AT THE HEART
Crane (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisites: One Crane maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Your speed and skill are such that you slice through your enemy’s defenses. When an opponent readies an action in combat against you, you may use this counter to make a single melee attack against her. If this attack strikes successfully, her readied action is lost.

STRIKE BENEATH THE VEIL
Crane [Daidoji] (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Bushi of the Daidoji Yojimbo school learn to better penetrate their enemies’ defenses, gaining an extra melee attack. As part of this maneuver, you take a full attack action and make your normal melee attacks. However, you can make one additional attack this round at your highest base attack bonus. All the attacks you make this round, including the extra attack granted by this maneuver, are made with a -2 penalty.

STRIKE FROM THE VOID
Crane [Kakita] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisites: Two Kakita maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn

You have vast reserves of inner strength, and have learned to focus them through your sword. This boost, if initiated directly before an iaijutsu strike, causes the strike to deal maximum damage.

STRIKE WITH NO THOUGHT
Crane [Kakita] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisites: Three Kakita maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

The greatest Kakita duelists understand that the principles of iaijutsu apply to all forms of combat. When an opponent moves into a square adjacent to you, you can initiate this counter and simultaneously initiate any iaijutsu strike maneuver that you have readied. The opponent is considered flat-footed for this attack. In order to initiate this counter, you must have your sword sheathed and be able to execute iaijutsu strikes as a standard action.

TO TREAD ON THE SWORD
Crane [Daidoji] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisites: Three Daidoji maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: End of combat

The final lesson taught at the Daidoji Yojimbo school is how to use an opponent’s school against her. If you succeed on a Martial Lore check opposed by the target’s initiator level check, she cannot initiate any strikes or counters against you, nor can she apply benefits of boosts or stances to her actions against you, for the duration of combat.

WATCHFUL FALCON
Crane [Doji] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Doji courtiers and magistrates both make use of this technique in order to focus their senses. While in this stance, you gain a +4 bonus to Sense Motive, Spot, and Search checks. However, you also take a -2 penalty on Diplomacy and Bluff checks due to your distant demeanor.

WAY OF THE CRANE
Crane [Kakita] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Centuries of tradition and excellence have honed your swordsmanship to a razor’s edge. While you are in this stance, you gain a bonus to Initiative rolls equal to 1/5 your initiator level (minimum +1), and can draw a katana or wakizashi as a swift action.

In addition, you can initiate iaijutsu strike maneuvers as a standard action instead of a full round action.

WIELDING THE INNER FIRE
Crane [Daidoji] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 move action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

This centering technique is taught by the Daidoji Yojimbo school, and is usually combined with a full defense action. This maneuver allows you to refocus your initiative as a move action. You immediately move up in the initiative count and are positioned as though you had rolled a natural 20 on your initiative check.



BORN DUELIST [ANCESTOR: MIRUMOTO]
You claim descent from Mirumoto, one of the first two samurai to join Togashi in his meditative retreat.
Clan: Dragon.
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 AC bonus from the use of any way of the dragon stance.

UNSTOPPABLE BLADE [ANCESTOR: MIRUMOTO MUSAYA]
Your skill with the blade often goes unnoticed, but never fails you.
Clan: Dragon.
Benefit: Martial Lore is always a class skill for you, and you gain a +2 competence bonus on Martial Lore checks. In addition, you gain a +2 competence bonus to your initiator level during Iaijutsu Duels.



Both the Mirumoto and Kitsuki schools typically train swordsages. Warblades are uncommon in the Dragon clan.


THE WAY OF THE DRAGON
Two Swords as One: Strike-Attack with two weapons.
Let Him Go By: Counter-Ruin charge attack, force charging foe to move away from you.
The Eyes See the Heart: Stance-Defeat lies and falsehoods.
Way of the Dragon I: Stance-Gain +1/+2 shield bonus when using two swords.

Breaking Waves: Counter-Defeat abilities that increase weapon damage.
Defy the Enemy: Strike-Gain extra attack.
The Empire Rests on Its Edge: Boost-Gain a bonus on attack rolls based on skill check.
Heart of the Dragon: Counter-Grant shield bonus + 4 as AC bonus to ally
My Brother’s Soul: Strike-Use targeted dispel magic effect.


Half-Beat Strike: Counter-As an immediate action, provoke an attack, then counter.
The Hand is My Sword: Stance-Make unarmed strikes and throw wakizashi.
Hold the Enemy: Boost-Foes you strike must attack you or provoke attacks of opportunity.
Way of the Dragon II: Stance-Gain +2/+4 shield bonus, other benefits when using two swords.


Aid Shugenja: Counter-Enhance divine magic that targets you.
Dragon’s Talons: Counter-Prevent spellcaster from casting defensively.
Elemental Attunement: Boost-Resist magic more effectively.
Standing on the Heavens: Counter-Force reroll on successful attack.
The Victory of the Wind: Stance-Gain +1 insight bonus each time you successfully attack.


Hojatsu's Technique: Boost-Make one extra attack with each weapon.
Know the Enemy: Counter-Strike opponent who attacks you and misses.
Way of the Dragon III: Stance-Gain +3/+6 shield bonus, other benefits when using two swords.


The Cuts of Harmony: Counter-Deflect attack and redirect it against opponent.
Dragon’s Eyes: Boost-Use true seeing.
Steal the Spirits’ Strength: Strike-Use targeted greater dispel magic effect.
The World is Empty: Boost-Gain insight bonus to all rolls based on maneuvers readied.


Two Heavens as One: Counter-Wakizashi strike cancels foe’s attack.
Truth is in the Killing: Boost-Prevent enemies from using maneuvers.
The Unrighteous Must Fall: Strike-Gain extra damage against weakened foe.
The Victory of the River: Strike-With each attack that hits, make another attack with increasing penalty.
Way of the Dragon IV: Stance-Gain +4/+8 shield bonus, other benefits when using two swords.


Dragon’s Teeth: Strike-Prevent spellcasting for 1 round.
Master the Enemy: Counter-Reflect foe’s attack
Mirumoto’s Technique: Boost-Make two extra attacks with each weapon.


The River Sword: Counter-Make devastating counterattack against opponent who strikes you in melee.
Way of the Dragon V: Stance-Gain +5/+10 shield bonus, other benefits when using two swords.


AID SHUGENJA
Dragon [Mirumoto]/Phoenix [Shiba] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisite: One Mirumoto or Shiba maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Through her study with the shugenja, the bushi learns to use her own personal energy to enhance a shugenja’s magic. Whenever you are the target of a divine spell, you can initiate this counter. The spell is treated as if the caster had used the Empower Spell metamagic feat, including the longer casting time. You cannot empower an already empowered spell with this maneuver.

BREAKING WAVES
Dragon (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Breaking waves teaches the bushi one of Mirumoto’s greatest lessons-any tide can be stemmed, and any force can be used against itself. Emphasizing defensive movements and techniques creates a mindset that is the undoing of those who wish to overpower the bushi with flashy strikes.

Whenever an opponent uses Power Attack, Reckless Attack, or other such abilities to gain a damage bonus (including charging), you can initiate this counter. Make a melee attack roll. If your result is greater than your foe’s attack roll, your opponent gains no damage bonus from these abilities.

THE CUTS OF HARMONY
Dragon [Kitsuki] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisites: Two Kitsuki maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

When you initiate this maneuver, you can attempt to block an enemy’s melee attack that targets you and redirect it to another target adjacent to you. Make a melee attack roll. If your result is greater than your foe’s attack roll, you deflect the strike and direct it against a target of your choice that stands adjacent to you. You must decide whether to initiate this maneuver after the enemy attacks, but before you know whether or not the attack you are attempting to deflect actually hits. If the attack misses, you can still attempt to deflect it.

If you succeed in deflecting the attack, use the result of your opponent’s attack roll to determine if it strikes the new target.
This maneuver functions only against armed melee attacks, you cannot use it against unarmed attacks, natural weapons, or touch spells.

DEFY THE ENEMY
Dragon [Kitsuki] (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
Range: Personal
Target: You

You can make an extra melee attack. As part of this maneuver, you take a full attack action and make your normal melee attacks. However, you can make one additional attack this round at your highest base attack bonus. All the attacks you make this round, including the extra attack granted by this maneuver, are made with a -2 penalty.

DRAGON’S EYES
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisites: Two Mirumoto maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round

You can draw on your connection to the spirit world to see things as they truly are. When you initiate this maneuver, you gain arcane sight and true seeing, as the spells, for 1 round. This is an extraordinary ability.

DRAGON’S TALONS
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisite: One Mirumoto maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

The Mirumoto Elite Guards develop an understanding of the ways of the kami so deep that they can dispel them with a forceful chi strike. When an enemy spellcaster attempts to cast a spell defensively in an adjacent space, you can initiate this counter and cause her Concentration check to automatically fail.

DRAGON’S TEETH
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisites: Three Mirumoto maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round

Mirumoto Elite Guards learn how to completely disrupt creature’s chi, preventing them from focusing their energies. Make a melee attack. If successful, the target takes damage as normal and must also make a caster level check, opposed by your initiator level check. A failure means that the target is rendered completely unable to cast spells or use innate abilities, spell-like abilities, or Kiho feats for 1 round.

ELEMENTAL ATTUNEMENT
Dragon/Phoenix (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisite: One Dragon or Phoenix maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round

Bushi who train with the shugenja develop a special connection with the spirit world. You can draw on this connection to resist hostile magic. Whenever you make a saving throw that would allow you to reduce the effect of a spell, the spell’s effects are instead completely negated if the saving throw is successful. This applies only when making a saving throw against a divine spell or a spell with an elemental (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) or Void descriptor.

THE EYES SEE THE HEART
Dragon [Kitsuki] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Kitsuki investigators have a keen awareness for falsehood. This stance grants a +5 competence bonus on Sense Motive checks. In addition, anyone attempting to lie in your presence must make a Will save (DC 10 + your Wisdom modifier). If this save fails, you immediately know that the subject is lying. This is an extraordinary ability.

HALF-BEAT STRIKE
Dragon (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Dragon maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

One of the signature techniques of the Dragon schools is the Half-Beat Strike. Performing this maneuver involves a series of staggered movements and feinted strikes, all intended to throw the opponent’s rhythm off just enough to give the bushi an advantage.

When your enemy makes an attack of opportunity against you, but before you know the result of the attack, you can initiate this maneuver. If her attack misses, she provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If her attack of opportunity hits you, she provokes an attack of opportunity from any of your allies who threaten her.

THE HAND IS MY SWORD
Dragon [Kitsuki] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Kitsuki maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

The Jotomon Shinrai learn that they must be adaptable in combat to be truly powerful. While in this stance, you gain the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as a bonus feat and can throw a wakizashi without the usual -4 penalty. In addition, you can initiate any strike from the Dragon schools with a thrown weapon. The strike must be one that has a target of one creature.

HEART OF THE DRAGON
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

As an immediate action, you grant an AC bonus to an adjacent ally equal to your shield bonus to AC + 4. You apply this bonus in response to a single melee or ranged attack that targets your ally. You can initiate this maneuver after an opponent makes his attack roll, but you must do so before you know whether the attack was a success or failure.

HOJATSU'S TECHNIQUE
Dragon [Mitumoto] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisites: Two Mirumoto maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn

You can perform an extraordinary number of quick attacks. After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with your katana and wakizashi (to a maximum of two extra attacks if you wield both). These extra attacks are made at your highest attack bonus for each of your respective weapons. All of these attacks must be directed against the same opponent.

HOLD THE ENEMY
Dragon [Kitsuki] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisites: One Kitsuki maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round

A Kitsuki investigator excels at controlling the battlefield around her. Her enemies must pay heed to the thread she poses. If they ignore her in favor of attacking other targets, she takes advantage of their lapses with a punishing counterattack.

Each enemy you strike after initiating this maneuver becomes vulnerable to your further attacks. If such an opponent attacks anyone other than you in melee for the duration of the maneuver, that attack provokes an attack of opportunity from you (each separate attack a target makes provokes an attack of opportunity, making this boost especially lethal if you have Combat Reflexes). Enemies you strike become aware of the consequences of this maneuver.

KNOW THE ENEMY
Dragon [Kitsuki] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisite: Two Kitsuki maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

A Kitsuki investigator’s timing is such that he can step into the vulnerable areas of an opponent just after he is attacked. You can initiate this maneuver any time an opponent attempts a melee attack against you and misses. You gain an immediate counter attack against that opponent, and she is considered flat-footed for the attack. This is not an attack of opportunity.

LET HIM GO BY
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

“When the enemy charges you with strength and urgency, let him go by.” - Mirumoto’s Niten.

With this counter, you can attempt to redirect a creature that intends to make a charge attack against you. Immediately before the creature makes its charge attack, make your choice of an opposed Strength or Dexterity check against it. The target makes its check using the same ability you chose for your check.

If you are of a larger size category than the attacking creature, you use your superior bulk to redirect your foe and gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check (if you opt for a Strength check). If you are of a smaller size category, you use leverage, misdirection, and trickery to gain a +4 bonus on your Dexterity check (if you use that option).

If you succeed on the Strength or Dexterity check, the creature does not get to attack you. You can then move it up to 2 squares in a direction of your choice away from you.

If you fail the Strength or Dexterity check, the creature gains a +2 bonus on its charge attack, in addition to the normal +2 bonus from taking the charge attack action.

MASTER THE ENEMY
Dragon [Kitsuki] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisite: Three Kitsuki maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

Once the Kitsuki has mastered his art, he is an irreproachable figure of honor and obvious ability, and a nearly impassible barrier to his foes. When an enemy attacks you on its turn, you can attempt to block the blow and send it back at that creature. You step into the attack and redirect it. This maneuver pits your skill against that of your foe.

If an opponent attacks you, you can initiate this maneuver to make an opposed attack roll as an immediate action. If your foe’s result is higher, he attacks you as normal. If your result is higher, your foe rolls damage as normal for the attack and takes that much damage.

MIRUMOTO’S TECHNIQUE
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisites: Three Mirumoto maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn

You make a flurry of deadly attacks. After initiating this boost, you can make two additional attacks with your katana and wakizashi (to a maximum of four extra attacks if you wield both). These extra attacks are made at your highest attack bonus for each of your respective weapons. You can spread these attacks out among the as many foes as you wish.

MY BROTHER’S SOUL
Dragon (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

Dragon samurai, who train closely with the shugenja of their clan, are capable of talking to an erudite Agasha master about the ways of spellcraft for hours on end. This training teaches the bushi something else as well-how to defeat their brothers. This maneuver focuses on striking between the elements, anticipating the shugenja’s defensive tactics and abilities.

As part of this maneuver, you make a normal melee attack roll. If this attack is successful, instead of dealing damage the strike acts as a targeted dispel magic effect with a caster level equal to your initiator level. This is an extraordinary ability.

STEAL THE SPIRITS’ STRENGTH
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisites: Two Mirumoto maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

The Nemuranai seekers train closely with the Tamori family, even more so than the normal close training that Mirumoto bushi receive. While they cannot command the kami as their shugenja brethren do, they are trained to sense them and affect them in subtle ways that aid them in their quest.

As part of this maneuver, you make a normal melee attack roll. If this attack is successful, instead of dealing damage the strike acts as a targeted greater dispel magic or break enchantment effect (your choice) with a caster level equal to your initiator level check. This is an extraordinary.

TRUTH IS IN THE KILLING
Dragon (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisites: Three Mirumoto maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round

Your overpowering will causes enemies to lose their focus. When you initiate this maneuver, you prevent any creature in your threatened area from initiating maneuvers until your next turn.

TWO HEAVENS AS ONE
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade7
Prerequisites: Two Mirumoto maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

As an immediate action, you can attempt an off-hand attack against an opponent you threaten. This attack is made with a -2 penalty. If your off-hand attack hits, your target’s next attack automatically misses. You can use this maneuver immediately after an opponent declares an attack, but you must do so before the attack’s result has been determined.

TWO SWORDS AS ONE
Dragon (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

“Some people say I am a coward. A samurai’s duty is to protect his lord. Are they so simple-minded that they cannot see that two swords serve their lord better than one?” ~Mirumoto.

You must fight with two weapons to use this maneuver. If you carry only one weapon, you can choose to make an unarmed strike with your off hand (as an unarmed attack) if you so wish. As part of this maneuver, you make an attack with both weapons you wield against one opponent. Both attacks must target the same creature, and you take a -2 penalty on each attack roll. If your first attack drops your foe to -1 hit points or fewer, you cannot make a second attack.

THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL FALL
Dragon (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade7
Prerequisites: Three Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature

You cut down your foes with brutal efficiency. As part of this maneuver, you make a melee attack against a creature. This attack deals an extra 4d6 points of damage. If the target’s current hit points are less than its full normal hit points, the attack instead deals an extra 6d6 points of damage. If its hit points are equal to or less than one-half its full normal hit points, the attack instead deals an extra 14d6 points of damage.

WAY OF THE DRAGON I
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Unique among the samurai of Rokugan, bushi of the Mirumoto family learn to fight with the katana in one hand and the wakizashi in the other. Unlike the style of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, however, this technique does not teach the use of the off-hand weapon to attack. Instead, the wakizashi serves as a shield, granting a +1 shield bonus to your AC while you are wielding both weapons. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2. You do not suffer a penalty to your primary attack while wielding the wakizashi in this way. If you use the wakizashi to attack, you lose this AC bonus until your next action (Mirumoto strikes that utilize both weapons are exceptions to this). A magic wakizashi does not add its enhancement bonus to your AC unless it is a defending weapon or has been otherwise specially enhanced for defense.

In addition, this stance allows you to use a katana as if you had the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana) feat.

WAY OF THE DRAGON II
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 3, Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Mirumoto maneuver

This stance functions like way of the dragon I, except as noted above and that it grants a +2 shield bonus to AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +4. This stance also allows you to make attacks of opportunity while using the total defense action.

WAY OF THE DRAGON III
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisites: Two Mirumoto maneuvers

This stance functions like way of the dragon II, except as noted above and that it grants a +3 shield bonus to AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +6 and you can make one additional attack of opportunity per round.

WAY OF THE DRAGON IV
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisites: Three Mirumoto maneuvers

This stance functions like way of the dragon III, except as noted above and that it grants a +4 shield bonus to AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +8 and you can use one counter per round without taking an immediate action. You cannot use the same maneuver two times in a round. In essence, one counter you use during the round does not require an immediate action. If you have already taken an immediate action within the past round, such as casting a feather fall spell, you can still use this stance to initiate a counter.

WAY OF THE DRAGON V
Dragon [Mirumoto] (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 9, Warblade 9
Prerequisites: Four Mirumoto maneuvers

This stance functions like way of the dragon IV, except as noted above and that it grants a +5 shield bonus to AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +10 and you gain spell resistance equal to 10 + your initiator level.

thoroughlyS
2017-04-28, 01:13 PM
Would it be a good idea implementing them? And if so, any change to do to ToB's maneuvers (regarding key skills, or something else.)
Tome of Battle is a very middle of the road book as far as power goes. There shouldn't be any problem just using it as is.

You might want to associate one major school with every clan and give the samurai class automatic access to half Swordsage maneuver/Stance advancement, courtier and shugenja quarter that.
I agree about associating each discipline with a major clan, but I do not think handing out initiator progression is necessary. A simpler solution for giving Samurai access to maneuvers is to add Martial Study and Martial Stance (Tome of Battle p.31) to their bonus feat list.

Gildedragon
2017-04-28, 02:04 PM
For Rokugan with its five element theme...
The Desert Wind maneuvers ought be adaptable to different energy types by Shugenjas depending on their elemental alignment.
Fire/heat, water/cold, earth/acid, metal/electric, wood/ uuuuh? Splinters?, and void/sonic

Possibly substitute Samurai with Crusader, and give them a bonus Clan discipline

Florian
2017-04-28, 02:30 PM
I agree about associating each discipline with a major clan, but I do not think handing out initiator progression is necessary. A simpler solution for giving Samurai access to maneuvers is to add Martial Study and Martial Stance (Tome of Battle p.31) to their bonus feat list.

The real question is how close this should stick to the L5R/Rokugan setting rules.

Canine
2017-04-28, 04:47 PM
This seems like a great idea!

As an aside, I'm not sure that Shugenja necessarily break into T1 in Rokugan. The elements are very limiting, and I havn't seen an analysis on all of the added spells in the non-core d20 Rokugan books.

torrasque666
2017-04-28, 06:28 PM
Tome of Battle is a very middle of the road book as far as power goes. There shouldn't be any problem just using it as is.

I agree about associating each discipline with a major clan, but I do not think handing out initiator progression is necessary. A simpler solution for giving Samurai access to maneuvers is to add Martial Study and Martial Stance (Tome of Battle p.31) to their bonus feat list.

This only works if you give them some sort of recovery method and the ability to select Martial Study more than 3 times.

Vaz
2017-04-28, 07:43 PM
Tome of Battle is a very middle of the road book as far as power goes. There shouldn't be any problem just using it as is.

I agree about associating each discipline with a major clan, but I do not think handing out initiator progression is necessary. A simpler solution for giving Samurai access to maneuvers is to add Martial Study and Martial Stance (Tome of Battle p.31) to their bonus feat list.

In Rokugan it's pretty high though. There are no Druids, Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Psionics, Incarnum, and if you do, you are Gaijin, which completely ruins your ability to operate in high social circles within Rokugan and is the basis of the story.

Florian
2017-04-28, 11:56 PM
This seems like a great idea!

As an aside, I'm not sure that Shugenja necessarily break into T1 in Rokugan. The elements are very limiting, and I havn't seen an analysis on all of the added spells in the non-core d20 Rokugan books.

Shugenja is the only casting class available in Rokugan, with the elements tied to your great clan and the orders tied to your clans schools. All other casting classes are either banned or modified to lose their spellcasting, like bards and rangers. As a side note, the old "secrets of" books nearly always had a clan-specific PrC for shugenja, really improving on the class in this way.

Metahuman1
2017-04-29, 12:07 AM
Wu Gen says Hi.



That said, frankly, I'd just give Initiators who decide to be Samurai Iai-Jutsu as a class skill and a Daisho, maybe Yumi proficiency while your at it, and call it a day. Unarmed Swordsage's and Warblades/Crusaders with Improved and Superior Unarmed Strike and other unarmed feats make solid Monks. The Initiators made solid and varied Samurai/Ronin and solid and respectable general purpose warriors who aren't monks, aren't samurai/Ronin, aren't ninja, and may or may not be specialist's in some other form of weaponry based combat. And Swordsages can be excellent Ninja. Though it might not hurt them to give them Trapfinding/disable device, and maybe craft alchemy/poison making and UMD as class skills to make sure they can cover the fact that in Rokugan, Ninja are basically setting specific Rogues.

Factotums also make excellent ninja's as well, if you want to add a way to vary them some more, and can also be half decent at any of the other things I just listed with the right skill rank assignments and feats.

Florian
2017-04-29, 12:44 AM
Nah, they did a horrible job by converting the L5R Ninja(s) to the d20 Ninja. What the class should be able to do and what you get with the rogue chassis is vastly different.

Metahuman1
2017-04-29, 01:46 AM
I meant in terms of "You absolutely positively simply must have one of these in the group or traps are going to be essentially insurmountable for you." on the mechanics level.

What your generally, from the fluff, suppose to get, is much better covered by a Factotum or a Swordsage if you make the recommended tweaks.

Florian
2017-04-29, 02:16 AM
I meant in terms of "You absolutely positively simply must have one of these in the group or traps are going to be essentially insurmountable for you." on the mechanics level.

What your generally, from the fluff, suppose to get, is much better covered by a Factotum or a Swordsage if you make the recommended tweaks.

Well, Rokugan doesn´t really have dungeons, locks and traps outside the Greater Carpenter Wall and the Tomb of Iuchiban, so Rogues are probably the most useless class in this setting.

Metahuman1
2017-04-29, 02:48 AM
Until the DM decides you need to get some kind of information out of a camp/palace/ext, and it's in a trapped room or chest. Oh, and that setting it off puts the whole place on alert, and you REALLY needed to make sure not to let that happen to succeed and get away with it.

TheTeaMustFlow
2017-04-29, 08:31 AM
Honestly, with the exception of the spellcasters I'd just avoid using the oriental adventures classes entirely, they're very poorly designed - in fact, the Samurai and Ninja are pretty much the basic non-core examples of poor class design. ToB classes honestly represent L5R Bushi anyway, though you might want to cut or restrict some of the more explicitly supernatural disciplines like Desert Wind. This extends to other classes as well - there's no reason you can't represent Ninjas with Rogues (or maybe swordsages for the more mystical ones - Shadow Hand screams Ninja), for example. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that having Samurai forces you to have the Samurai class.

BWR
2017-04-29, 08:49 AM
. ToB classes honestly represent L5R Bushi anyway, .

Huh?
How do reckon that?

R&K bushi do not have basically mini spells which they fire and temporarily forget, Frankly, properly designed PrCs and clan/organization-specific feats does a much better job than initatiors.

Gildedragon
2017-04-29, 09:01 AM
Huh?
How do reckon that?

R&K bushi do not have basically mini spells which they fire and temporarily forget, only shadow hand and desert wind are "magic"-y
The rest: very solid martial feel that let's PCs do quite a bit more with their turns.

TheTeaMustFlow
2017-04-29, 09:19 AM
Huh?
How do reckon that?

R&K bushi do not have basically mini spells which they fire and temporarily forget, Frankly, properly designed PrCs and clan/organization-specific feats does a much better job than initatiors.

Actually, they frequently do. Many Bushi schools* have abilities they can 'fire' once per encounter or something and then 'forget'. Furthermore, they do have specific, codified techniques, which fits the themes of the initiators well. Remember, from a lore standpoint manoeuvres are not 'spells', nor do initiators actually 'forget' them when they are expended, any more than a Hida Bushi in L5R forgets how to use his Devasting Blow ability* once he's used it once in an encounter. These are all mechanical abstractions that do not actually exist in universe.

Additionally, I'd say that mechanically they're in many ways similar to Kata and Kiho from L5R*.

Certainly, one could instead use properly designed PrCs and clan/organisation-specific feats. That would require such existing, which is very much not the case in d20, unless you know of some good homebrew you'd like to share.

Also, R&K? Is that a typo, or something I'm missing?

*These reference 4e L5R, since it's the only edition I have any familiarity with.

Florian
2017-04-29, 09:23 AM
Huh?
How do reckon that?

R&K bushi do not have basically mini spells which they fire and temporarily forget, Frankly, properly designed PrCs and clan/organization-specific feats does a much better job than initatiors.

That´s a conversion problem. You know that R&K bushi schools offer quite powerful techniques and the Kata you can learn boost this even more. Comparing the combat effectiveness to other, more regular characters in a Rokugan setting, we know that even a pure martial character should be able to wield some major oomph.

Florian
2017-04-29, 10:03 AM
Also, R&K? Is that a typo, or something I'm missing?

*These reference 4e L5R, since it's the only edition I have any familiarity with.

The basic system behind L5R is called "Roll And Keep", so short R&K or RNK.

You being familiar with 4E L5R, you should know which conversion problem I´m referencing to. A class is "done " reaching school level 5 and you´d have to either branch out into another school our aim towards an advanced school (ultimately, if your character survives that long, again having to go back to a basic school).

TheTeaMustFlow
2017-04-29, 11:07 AM
The basic system behind L5R is called "Roll And Keep", so short R&K or RNK.

You being familiar with 4E L5R, you should know which conversion problem I´m referencing to. A class is "done " reaching school level 5 and you´d have to either branch out into another school our aim towards an advanced school (ultimately, if your character survives that long, again having to go back to a basic school).

Ah, I see. Silly me.

BWR
2017-04-29, 01:13 PM
only shadow hand and desert wind are "magic"-y
The rest: very solid martial feel that let's PCs do quite a bit more with their turns.

I'm speaking mechanically, not in-game. Maneuvers basically work as mini-spells that you load up and use.



Actually, they frequently do. Many Bushi schools* have abilities they can 'fire' once per encounter or something and then 'forget'. Furthermore, they do have specific, codified techniques, which fits the themes of the initiators well. Remember, from a lore standpoint manoeuvres are not 'spells', nor do initiators actually 'forget' them when they are expended, any more than a Hida Bushi in L5R forgets how to use his Devasting Blow ability* once he's used it once in an encounter. These are all mechanical abstractions that do not actually exist in universe.

Additionally, I'd say that mechanically they're in many ways similar to Kata and Kiho from L5R*.

Certainly, one could instead use properly designed PrCs and clan/organisation-specific feats. That would require such existing, which is very much not the case in d20, unless you know of some good homebrew you'd like to share.

Also, R&K? Is that a typo, or something I'm missing?

*These reference 4e L5R, since it's the only edition I have any familiarity with.


4e sadly does have 'once per encounter' nonsense, which is one reason I don't bother playing it. In any case, this is one technique out of 5 (or even more if you count most advanced schools and you are lucky enough to get that powerful). The rest of the techniques are always on or situational or Void based, not fire-and-temporarily-forget; how is it then better to use initiating rather than feats and PrCs?
Kata and kiho are already converted so you can't really say that initiating does that better than the existing one. I'll grant you that the conversions are sometimes unimpressive, but that is easily fixed
And I do happen to have a (nearly) complete d20 conversion of almost everything from 1e-3e in feats and PrCs.