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AKA_Bait
2007-07-31, 09:45 AM
I am creating a NE rat lich. He is going to be a relativley high level sorcerer and was wondering what sorts of minions you might suggest for him. All cool ideas welcome.

Swooper
2007-07-31, 09:54 AM
Finally some interesting threads, this place has been dead all day :smallsmile:

Let's see... a rat lich. High level as in what? 10? 15? 18? What's his lair supposed to be like, or at least, where is it? Is it a rathole in a warehouse basement, or a magnificent fortress on a mountaintop, perpetually surrounded by a flashing lightning storm?

Off the top of my head: Advanced wererats, maybe a small tribe of kobolds hired as trapsmiths, some nasty undead (a group of wraiths led by a dread wraith might be a nasty encounter). Give me some more info and I might get more ideas.

Edit: Ooh, maybe some kind of brutish monster (troll?) possessed by a ghost. That would be cool.

Attilargh
2007-07-31, 09:56 AM
Cat people, for the delicious irony. Maybe even Rakshasas. Possibly with undead templates.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-31, 09:58 AM
lots of poisen and spring traps, and the lair should definately be a rathole, possibly with gates between planes to make it a cosmic spanning rathole.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-31, 09:59 AM
You can never get enough undead as a lich. But get a few flesh goloems with a wererat subtype thing goin on, that would be cool. Also set a few traps with just regular old were rats, and a few just summon swarm (verman) to creep the people out.

AKA_Bait
2007-07-31, 10:05 AM
More Details:

Awakened Rat: Silus
Wizard 13
Not actually a Lich yet, but about to become one. He has gotten old (which happens rather quickly for a rat) and wants to find a away to make his children smart (I've decided that awakened critters do not pass on their new intelegence to offspring) and is becoming a lich to have more time to do this.

Location: Catacombs below a large necropolis.
Already in the crypt: A dread wraith with some cleric levels (this is the actual BBEG). He was attempting to become a lich a long time ago but messed up the spell and became a wraith instead. He is trapped in the toumb. Silus got the idea to become a lich from him and the wraith is hoping to use Silus to escape his entrapment.

Minions already around:
Lots of rats and dire rats. These are his kids or other relatives.

Traps around: Lots and lots of unopened coffins. Most have traps (glyphs of warding, symbols etc. to mess with grave robbers).

Thoughts?

The party is a Druid, Sorcerer, Meat Shield, Beguiler, and Favored Soul. All level 9.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-31, 10:05 AM
give the minions a homebrew feat: Wriggle, +1 to tumble and escape artist roles and move through constricted spaces as though you are one size catagory smaller,

Then make the lair a tiny labyrinth.

most parties will be medium, some might have small creatures, reduce size and blasting walls will only get you so far,

Swooper
2007-07-31, 10:20 AM
A spirit naga is CR9. Some outsiders bound via Planar Binding spells would work. But mainly, I think you just want undead. Page through whatever monster manuals you have available and look for cool undead. Some aberrations (and oozes?) might be appropriate, too.

TranquilRage
2007-07-31, 10:22 AM
Experimental Psionic Rats. Contributing to a Rat hive Mind. And eventually getting usurped by the Ratty the collective conciousness.

Mutant brain rats.

Maybe he could use a Rod/spell of Splicing to join Rats and local towns people.

Undead Composite Rat Golems! Giant monstrous Rats made from the mangled skeletons of lesser Rats.

Quincunx
2007-07-31, 10:40 AM
Mounted combat rats (any flavor) riding the skeletons of their defeated feline enemies?

13_CBS
2007-07-31, 10:42 AM
Minions you say? How about an awakened raven that is obsessed with eating eyes or eye like objects.

On a more serious note, perhaps the wraith BBEG could provide him with certain undead minions?

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-31, 10:48 AM
How about a few Ephemeral Swarms? (MM III)

It's a swarm of undead, ghostly rats that are quite brutal (deals no physical damage, but instead deals strength damage). They're incorporeal, too. Seems to fit the bill of undead minion(s) for a 'Rat Lich'.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-31, 10:52 AM
buy a size staff and enlarge all these rats, huge giant rats.. ahahahahahah.and gate in a few of these Uridezus (http://us.geocities.com/paranoidus_maximus/Uridezu.htm) then kill them, awaken undead, and then use comand undead, shazam undead half rat demon guards. hehe, made it on the fly.

Freelance Henchman
2007-07-31, 10:56 AM
Loads of Dire Rats? Or ROUSes?

Also, have a heavily locked down and guarded "treasure room", which turns out to be a huge cold storage full of cheese, just for lolz.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-31, 10:58 AM
Great idea for a setting!

Since it's underneath old graveyards/catacombs, you could apply various undead templates/monsters to some of the rats (ghoul rats, for instance), with not necessarily all of them aligned with Silus.

Additionally, to pick up on the idea to use a huge labyrinth of small tunnels etc. , you could require the pcs to use reduce person/PaO on themselves to get in (with the problem that it might get dispelled and they get stuck etc...).

For more flavour, have a look at the Mrs. Brisby & Secret of Nimh movie (it has a quite scary giant owl in it....). This way, you could establish a DrowOfTheUnderdark-like system of rat states below the catacombs, with Silus being only the most intelligent head of the most advanced state (maybe starting to construct buildings, crafting items, using weapons and clothes, getting bats as mounts); pcs getting maybe assistance/allies from other rats etc.

Additionally, you may make use of wererats/inflict one of the party members with the curse to involve them even more in the rat action.

Have fun!

- Giacomo

hewhosaysfish
2007-07-31, 11:10 AM
Doesn't one of the MMs have something called Moonrats in it. They get smarter/magical under a full moon and/or in large swarms (I can't really remember). Perhaps a failed experiment of Silus' (either he created some or, in his quest for intelligent offspring, got some Moonrat mail-order-brides).

I am amused by the idea of undead rats riding undead cats. If the culture that built the necropolis had an Egyptian, "lets worship our moggies and mummify them when they croak" thing going on then that could work quite well. Hmm... mummies... maybe in groups or with class levels to up the CR a bit....

Why isn't mummy a template? Mummified cas, mummified dragons, mummified tarrasque... The possibilities are endless.

But back on topic, if the creators saw fit to trap the coffins they might have put in some golems as well. Stone or clay would fit the theme best, brass if you have the right MM (and glass could work). Alternatively, statues and grave goods with Animate Objects on them. If you're feeling mean, mummify a statue and watch the druid and favored soul waste all their cure spells trying to kill it (would be better with an actual cleric but meh).
Without a rogue in the party you can fill the place with undead and constructs without anyone feeling put out about lost sneak attacks. And don't go mad with the traps... but do have some fun. :)

If you feel like the "tomb with undead'n'constructs" theme has been done to death, fill the place with vermin, swarms and a few animals. Again dependent on the country, I'm imagining giant scorpions and those killer-scarab things from The Mummy.
If that too seems a little passe, have some bandits/slave raiders/smugglers/goblins/drow/lumberjacks using the upper part of the necropolis as a hideout (or the lower levels of the catacombs, if they have a tunnel in as the drow or smugglers might). Living, humanoid opponents may be the last thing your players expect in such an environment. Alternatively, place some mighty magical MacGuffin (or just a really famous/valuable/collectable doodat) in one of the tombs and have group of tomb-robbers/archeologists/adventurers be trying to get it at the same time. Have them ally with the party or used as pawns by the rat. Have them mistake the party for rivals for the treasure or agents of the Dark Lord Bob (the last one could be quite funny if both sides are convinced the other is Evil).

lord_khaine
2007-07-31, 11:45 AM
mummy is a template, its found in liber mortis

AKA_Bait
2007-07-31, 11:49 AM
How about a few Ephemeral Swarms? (MM III)

It's a swarm of undead, ghostly rats that are quite brutal (deals no physical damage, but instead deals strength damage). They're incorporeal, too. Seems to fit the bill of undead minion(s) for a 'Rat Lich'.

This idea is perfect. I can toss in a few of these as the screw ups of Silus in earlier attempts to awaken a bunch whole bunch of rats at the same time without knowing what he was doing.

JellyPooga
2007-07-31, 12:02 PM
For minions, you can't beat the Tomb Mote Lord and his army of underlings as allies.

The Tomb Mote Lord is an advanced HD Tomb Mote (Libris Mortis) with the Swarm Shifter:Tomb Dust and Evolved Undead templates (both also Libris Mortis). His underlings are simply standard Tomb Motes (or potentially, for mega-death TMs, give them all the Swarm Shifter template and/or advance their HD).

The Tomb Mote Lord is a good Leiutenant 'cos he can discorporate into a cloud of dust when things start going pear-shaped and run away, making for repeat encounters with him and his lesser brothers. Given that the setting is a large Necropolis, it is the perfect location for large numbers of Tomb Motes (which only rise in areas of high concentrations of negative energy, like Necropli and Mausoleums). when the Rat-Lich moved in, he discovered the vast number of these cunning critters and sought out their leader (the TM Lord), bent him to his will and now commands a legion of foot-high death through him.

Tomb Motes are horrendously difficult to fight in large numbers. One or two are a cakewalk for anyone over level 4, three or four can pose a challenge, but when you come across 10 or 12 or more of these guys, they start getting nasty. If you advance their HD (or switch out a feat they already possess) and give them all the Swarm Fighting feat (Complete Warrior) they can get truly deadly. Their Quickness ability gets exponentially better the more of them there are present because of the sheer number of options that become available to them.

Being literally mobbed by a bunch of them and being dragged underwater (don't forget that they have a Swim speed and don't need to breathe) is an encounter that can ruin any adventurers day.

Walking into a room that is apparently empty, but for a large amount of grave dust and detritus only to have it rise up and form itself into a horde of tiny creatures hell-bent on your destruction is an occurence to deter the most valient of knights (Swarm Shifter Tomb Motes only).


Alternatively, instead of the Tomb Mote Lord, you could use the big daddy of Swarm Shifter Tomb Motes...a Boneyard (again found in Libris Mortis) as their leader. Now thats an encounter I wouldn't want to have...a Boneyard backed up by a horde of Tomb Motes :smalleek: *shudders*.

Runolfr
2007-07-31, 12:22 PM
I totally agree with the Ephemeral Swarms, but maybe not so much as the villain's experiments. These would be rats that were killed by humans using poison or other means, and your villain has animated them so they may avenge themselves (and keep pesky humans and such out of his business). I also like the Moon Rat idea.

Wererats should be compatible. They would be his agents, gathering information from humans and handling transactions he can't do himself. With the right feats (and we already know he has Create Wondrous Item), he could provide them with some magic items in return for their service.

A druid with a mean streak who thinks civilization is a blight on the world might be a good minion. He'd have to be evil and a bit insane to hang with the undead, though. Perhaps a cleric of an appropriate deity would be better: someone with a grudge against the city.

Bat swarms, since the are likely to dwell in the same underground areas as rats.

Ghouls, since where you have corpses you tend to have ghouls.

Wraiths, since where there's a Dire Wraith there are likely to be lesser wraiths.

Any zombies or skeletons that your Rat Lich cares to animate, of course. You might get inventive with undead animals in this case. He'd probably be as likely to animate cats and dogs as humanoids.

Runolfr
2007-07-31, 12:26 PM
This should be a problematic adventure for the PCs. It stands to reason that the necropolis will be riddled with tunnels suitable only for rat-sized creatures. Intruders will mostly have to travel down well-trapped avenues, and all the real stuff is going to be accessible only to people who reduce themselves quite a bit, shape change, or use gaseous form or other means to get around. A not-too-smart party could easily spend all their time wandering from trap to ambush to dead end until worn down and killed.

Irreverent Fool
2007-07-31, 12:43 PM
Doesn't one of the MMs have something called Moonrats in it. They get smarter/magical under a full moon and/or in large swarms (I can't really remember). Perhaps a failed experiment of Silus' (either he created some or, in his quest for intelligent offspring, got some Moonrat mail-order-brides).

I am amused by the idea of undead rats riding undead cats. If the culture that built the necropolis had an Egyptian, "lets worship our moggies and mummify them when they croak" thing going on then that could work quite well. Hmm... mummies... maybe in groups or with class levels to up the CR a bit....

Why isn't mummy a template? Mummified cas, mummified dragons, mummified tarrasque... The possibilities are endless.

But back on topic, if the creators saw fit to trap the coffins they might have put in some golems as well. Stone or clay would fit the theme best, brass if you have the right MM (and glass could work). Alternatively, statues and grave goods with Animate Objects on them. If you're feeling mean, mummify a statue and watch the druid and favored soul waste all their cure spells trying to kill it (would be better with an actual cleric but meh).
Without a rogue in the party you can fill the place with undead and constructs without anyone feeling put out about lost sneak attacks. And don't go mad with the traps... but do have some fun. :)

If you feel like the "tomb with undead'n'constructs" theme has been done to death, fill the place with vermin, swarms and a few animals. Again dependent on the country, I'm imagining giant scorpions and those killer-scarab things from The Mummy.
If that too seems a little passe, have some bandits/slave raiders/smugglers/goblins/drow/lumberjacks using the upper part of the necropolis as a hideout (or the lower levels of the catacombs, if they have a tunnel in as the drow or smugglers might). Living, humanoid opponents may be the last thing your players expect in such an environment. Alternatively, place some mighty magical MacGuffin (or just a really famous/valuable/collectable doodat) in one of the tombs and have group of tomb-robbers/archeologists/adventurers be trying to get it at the same time. Have them ally with the party or used as pawns by the rat. Have them mistake the party for rivals for the treasure or agents of the Dark Lord Bob (the last one could be quite funny if both sides are convinced the other is Evil).

Moonrats are from the monster manual II, page 151. Guess you beat me to it. The only problem with moonrats is that they have to be exposed at least partially to the moonlight in order to gain their increased stats, so our lovable little rat lich would want to keep these guys on the upper levels where gratings/reflective arrays/portals could keep the moonlight shining on them. I've been considering making a swarm of moonrats the actual BBEG in my campaign due to their nature of carrying out complicated long-term plans and easily remaining undetected.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-31, 12:51 PM
am telling you urizdues are the way to go, they can control lower rat minnions for you and you can give them an undead template, they are the beast of rat people.

just read Annilhilation, WotSQ book 5

AKA_Bait
2007-08-01, 11:23 AM
So for those that are curious...

The Rat Lich's Minions:

Flesh Golem (Dressed up with a black cloak and silver mask. The Rat Lich cast ventriloquism so it appeared to the PC's that the Golem was speaking and lured them into a trap.)
3 Ephemeral Swarms
Lots of Dire Rats
20 or so Spell Warped Dire Rats
The Demented One's Fingerling Swarm (You rock man)

The PC's have encountered everything but the two Swarms.

Here's the issue: After taking down the Flesh Golem, the favored soul, tank and druid are now trapped in a forcecage by Silus leaving only the sorcerer (who is now low on spells) and the beguiler free. It seems to me that the Ephemeral Swarms and a few spells from Silus could pretty much be a TPK if the other two don't run and a MotPK (most of the party kill) if not. I'd like to avoid that without it seeming like a Deus Ex DM.

Thoughts?

Keld Denar
2007-08-01, 12:09 PM
Undead rat swarms. Swarms are great monsters, as they are easy to scale, and don't discriminate amongs ACs. Undead swarms can inflict ability damage, and carry all sorts of fun diseases. DCs and damages all scale with swarm hit dice. Have 2-4 of them poor out of the walls and start surounding people. Most swarms need AoE damage to hurt, but you can't go nuking a square if it has your fighter friend in it as well.

You can always apply the Swarm Shifter template from Libris Mortis (Book of Bad Latin) to any corporial undead (like your lich). That way, when his hp get low, he can just burst into a swarm of rats and skitter away into holes. It's pretty much an auto-getaway for recuring fights.

Krrth
2007-08-01, 01:04 PM
If you want to avoid a TPK, one simple way to do it is to have the Rat Lord let them live. After all, he doesn't HAVE to kill them. They've already been beaten by a rat. Maybe he offers them their lives in return for help? Otherwise, he can just knock them out and strip them of any magic items they have. Or, if you are feeling mean, kill them and let him re-animate them as various undead, then play a slightly different style of campaine.

Runolfr
2007-08-01, 01:29 PM
Here's the issue: After taking down the Flesh Golem, the favored soul, tank and druid are now trapped in a forcecage by Silus leaving only the sorcerer (who is now low on spells) and the beguiler free. It seems to me that the Ephemeral Swarms and a few spells from Silus could pretty much be a TPK if the other two don't run and a MotPK (most of the party kill) if not. I'd like to avoid that without it seeming like a Deus Ex DM.

Thoughts?

It would not be unreasonable for Silus to choose to capture the party for interrogation. If he's not just randomly bloodthirsty, he might try ransoming them, letting one member go to obtain something he wants and return with it.

Remember, just because the villain can kill the party doesn't necessarily mean that he wants to. Just think of a logical reason for him to keep them alive a while.

Captain van der Decken
2007-08-01, 01:43 PM
I quite like the idea of being killed and animated, but it really depends if your players would like it.

You could always fudge it. Don't use the swarms (just yet, at least). Have the rat run out of most his useful spells.

Bender
2007-08-01, 02:08 PM
The Wraight can intervene. He might need the PC's for some reason to be free (needing a living, good-aligned hand to bypass some ancient magic or something)
The rat lich might be influenced by the wraight without knowing it

more ideas: rooms that are so infested with rats that the entire room is one big ratswarm, that refreshes as soon as some rats are killed. Can be annoying if they have to fight something else in that room.
wererat vampires (if you decide that's possible, and as a DM, you can)

mostlyharmful
2007-08-01, 02:21 PM
Silus can win:smallsmile: , strip them of magic:smallredface: , Geas the bejesus out of 'em:smalleek: and then you've got great oppertunities for random quests, conflicts with the PCs allies as they're now minions of an evil rat genius and an oppertunity to have a BBEG that reoccurs with style, even if he is only 6' tall

Bender
2007-08-01, 02:35 PM
a secret sect of were-cats happen to be searching for the rat lich and stumble into the room at the right moment. Could be just a single were-cat, of course. They can summon cat-swarms to fight the rat-swarms.
Some PC's might want to be infected by a were-cat of course.

Runolfr
2007-08-01, 02:53 PM
Is curse of lycanthropy a spell that's within Silus reach? I think it's level 6 for a wizard/sorcerer, isn't it? He could just curse them all to be were-rats, take their stuff, and have them dumped on a street corner in a bad part of town. A month later, they're minions!

Party is now motivated to find a cure and then get revenge.

Koji
2007-08-01, 03:24 PM
Advanced (and possibly templated) shambling mounds and otyughs are good for creating that gross underground feel. Rats need water, remember, so don't be afraid to make the place wet. Maybe it's flooded? That makes for good environments, puzzles, and traps, as well as adding to the gross factor.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-01, 03:54 PM
Water's perfect for this, undead and constructs being the key elements in the construction, rat-like critters moving in subsequently. Lots of deep water, under water passages, sewer access, and (this one rules) tidal access (only works by the coast but most large cities in Medeaval worlds are).

Suddenly theres a time constraint in dungeon crawls beyound the characters with tidal changes, the undead + robots won't mind and the players have to time it right and not get caught and it changes the dungeon layout from encounter to encounter.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-01, 09:27 PM
Animated Rat Traps.

They're certainly terrifying to the rat lich, so naturally he might assume they are scary to the humans.

Hectonkhyres
2007-08-01, 10:56 PM
He might not be a lich yet... but no doubt he has made some progress extending his life through magic and medicine. He might be eight, even ten years old! Damn fine for a creature that rarely gets more than a month or two past its third birthday.

In that time, you rack up a lot of offspring. And, eventually, as many ratty corpses. Put them to use... but be more imaginative than a bunch of skeletal rats. Put them together as a giant, conglomerate organism composed of the bones of all you failed to save. Tentacles made from the spines and ribcages of dozens, each tipped with the toothy skull of a rat. And, being made up of tiny components, the entire thing can disarticulate and slide through all but the smallest of cracks.

I want to ask why the PCs are going up against this guy anyway? Most players (ie: all but the most fanatical pallies and clerics) would be content to either leave the rat alone or even join up with him. From everything you have said, he sounds like a very noble individual.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-02, 06:28 AM
I want to ask why the PCs are going up against this guy anyway? Most players (ie: all but the most fanatical pallies and clerics) would be content to either leave the rat alone or even join up with him. From everything you have said, he sounds like a very noble individual.


Reasons the PC's are there:

1. The Beguiler's backstory has him chasing down this necromancer. In the necromancers lair after he chased him off he found a list of locations, this place was on the list. So, there was a tacit assumption that Silus was in league with this fellow. Not actually true, it was a list of places the necromancer could use as potential backup lairs, but it looks that way.

2. The Favored Soul had a friend buried in the catacombs 200 years ago. When his friend was interred they put a ward on the coffin to alert him and other remaining friends, if the coffin was ever disturbed. Silus has been looting the coffins down there for parts of his flesh golem and fingerling swarm. His friend was among the defiled corpses.

3. The meatsheild is basically, in terms of personality, a paladin without the actual paladin class levels (he's a ToB and Fighter mishmash). He's pretty fanatically devoted to St. Cuthbert.