5e Optimal Swashbuckler (SCAG)/Fighter multiclass build

[NathanielGarro]

Hi all,

First post here! I've tried looking everywhere but I haven't found any viable advice when it comes to the build path I'm looking at. I'm trying to crunch some numbers regarding my fighter dip, how far to dip, and when exactly to dip, but there are inevitably some class features that fall out of the purview of stats alone, so I'll be needing some advice from experienced players who might've dabbled with a rogue/fighter. Just to preface my breakdown, I'm playing a combat heavy rogue. I won't get into the justification behind that, as the purpose here isn't really to discuss RP, but assume that I'll be darting in and out of the front line to help peel attackers off of my tanks and then shredding them 1v1.

Current stats:

Half Elf: 8/16/12/8/14/16
Lvl 3 Swashbuckler

End state for the build will be lvl 11, but feel free to give me advice with the assumption I get to 20.

I figure I have 3 options:

Option A: Go 5 lvls into Swashbuckler, pick up evasion, the extra 1d6 sneak attack, an ASI, then dip 6 lvls into fighter to get Duelist, Shield Prof, Second Wind, TWF, Action Surge, Battle master, 2 ASIs and extra attack.

I'll be doing 5d6+4 fairly early on, and Swashbuckler helps me get sneak attack more often. AC will be 16, which isn't terrible, and I'll continue rocking Shortswords until my Fighter extra attack, wherein I'll switch to Rapier+Shield.

By the time I'm lvl 11 I'll be 5 Swashbuckler/6 Battlemaster, have 20 Dex, 19 AC w/ Shield, and be doing 2d8+14 +3d6 (inc the +2 dmg from Duelist). Overall, I'll be tanky, have Battle maneuvers to use up a reaction/or get half dmg from evasion if I'm out of dice, get free disengages from my attacks via Fancy footwork, and be hard as hell to hit.

Stats will be 8/20/12/8/14/18 (CHA for the additional initiative from Rakish Audacity, but I'm open to other suggestions).

Avg dmg is 36 per round, assuming no riposte, I hit, and sneak attack triggers. Riposte would net me another 3d6, but is situational. Initiative will be +9.

Option B: I keep my dip small, go 2 into fighter for TWF+second wind+Action surge, then go 9 Swashbuckler. End state sees me with 2 ASIs instead of 3. Pick up evasion, an in combat charm, and some additional expertise. AC will be 17.

Stats will be 8/20/12/8/14/16.

Using two shortswords I'll be doing 7d6+10 (mod on offhand attack from TWF).

Avg dmg will be 38 per round, so higher, but more situational on sneak attack (which isn't much of a problem as a swashbuckler, I get it practically for free every round). Downside is lower AC, lower Initiative at +8, and very little chance to secure sneak attack via reactions.

Option C: Complete my dip into BM and pick up 3 maneuvers. Not really viable, unless I'm mistaken, as I'll losing 1d6 of sneak attack, charm, and not getting any of the fighter benefits.

At this point I'm not quite sure where to go. I'm leaning towards option A, as I feel that the 2d8 rapier will be reliable, BM maneuvers will help the party as a whole, and the additional AC will allow to me maintain my skill monkey status while still going toe to toe with some serious baddies. Downsides are lack of evasion vs aoe spell effects, missing out on 2 expertise (although I'd like pick up a lvl in Rogue to get that), and losing several die worth of sneak attack damage.

Let me know what you all think.


Thanks!

[Specter]

I say multiclass after you get evasion. The main draw out of fighter would be the archetype abilities (maneuvers or improved crit). And CON is more important than CHA.

[Corran]

Are you set on playing a hit&run type of character? If yes, you could look at BB (either from halfelf, though go variant, or through magic initiate which will also get you a familiar and one more cantrip -pick a utility one, like minor illusion).

If you are not 100% set on hit&run, you could go with a tank/dpr approach, which will work great if your party is melee heavy. It involves battlemaster and either arcane trickster or thief, and there are many different variations. @9 or @11 level you are pretty much set to include sentinel for some off-turn sneak attack. I quite like this approach, and it can make for a very versatile build (for example, if you go with arcane trickster you can always change to hit and run with BB and cunning action, whenever necessary). Though I will not detail further as you might not be interested in sth like that. Cant blame me for trying to tempt you...:smallbiggrin:

[NathanielGarro]

Are you set on playing a hit&run type of character? If yes, you could look at BB (either from halfelf, though go variant, or through magic initiate which will also get you a familiar and one more cantrip -pick a utility one, like minor illusion)

It's something I considered, but my approach isn't one of pure 100% optimization. At the end of the day, my character isn't exactly magically inclined, has shunned his elvish heritage, and serves as the resident party skill monkey. Dropping two skill proficiencies for BB, while it'd make perfect sense on paper, would hurt the party too much, and wouldn't make much RP sense.

And with my party comp, it being a Barb, a Fighter, and a Druid, I figured that someone that can be both a front and backline fighter would be best.

Thanks for your suggestions though!

[Zman]

I just had a guy do Option A, but he went with Champion over Battlemaster mainly for simplicity's sake. It is a solid combo, but there is a slog levels 9 and 10 where it feels a bit weak, then Extra attack happens and life is good again.

[NathanielGarro]

I just had a guy do Option A, but he went with Champion over Battlemaster mainly for simplicity's sake. It is a solid combo, but there is a slog levels 9 and 10 where it feels a bit weak, then Extra attack happens and life is good again.

Interesting, maybe I rush the 5 levels of fighter now and jump back in to rogue at lvl 8?

How much of a role did Uncanny dodge play in combat?

[Zman]

Interesting, maybe I rush the 5 levels of fighter now and jump back in to rogue at lvl 8?

How much of a role did Uncanny dodge play in combat?

Uncanny dodge is quite amazing. Only problem there is that you'll end up missing out on Rogue Skills, and won't get to spend the whole game rockign cunning action.

It still works going Rogue 5 first, but there will be some times where you'll feel the loss of the Rogue levels. It works, just be prepared for a bit of grind while other rogus are rolling 4d6 or 5d6 sneak attack, and the straight fighters have more ASIs and are getting Indomitable, etc.

[NathanielGarro]

Uncanny dodge is quite amazing. Only problem there is that you'll end up missing out on Rogue Skills, and won't get to spend the whole game rockign cunning action.

It still works going Rogue 5 first, but there will be some times where you'll feel the loss of the Rogue levels. It works, just be prepared for a bit of grind while other rogus are rolling 4d6 or 5d6 sneak attack, and the straight fighters have more ASIs and are getting Indomitable, etc.

Oh, sorry if that was unclear, I meant rush into 5 levels of fighter now that I'm a lvl 3 swashbuckler. I'm 8 sessions into a campaign, so those three levels are invested, but I'm wondering if getting extra attack by lvl 8 instead of 11 will make a huge difference.

Granted, I'll be using shortswords until then, so I only lose out on 2d2 worth of damage.

[Drackolus]

Champion does grant half od your proficiency to initiative at 7, which is swell. But then that's only 4 levels of rogue.
6 levels of rogue grants your 2nd set of expertise, too.
Me personally? Swashbuckler's already a great fighter. Get you a pair of cutlasses and have a hayday. Having two attacks is enough. An 11th level rogue is looking at 33 damage with nothing but 20 dex and two scimitars, and you get to keep all your fun rogue tricks and get your asi's at the proper times. And reliable talent! How cool is that!?
Levels taken in fighter are levels you aren't progessing sneak attack.
If you aren't going for a shield master build, fighter has little to offer the rogue.

[Theodoxus]

Food for thought, my ideal swashbuckler build is going swash to 9 for the persuasion charm, and then MCing into ancient pally for 11 levels. Smites piggy back on the 5d6 sneaks when you crit very nicely. You're going to want to max out Cha anyway (if you want the crazy Init bonus (I grab Alert, because a +15 initiative is too much fun)... Your self heal with LoH will be better than second wind, your spells will be arguably better than action surge...

Anyway, Rogue 9/Pally 2 is kinda meh, so this is definitely an idea if you do go out to 20. But from my experience playing this build, it's useful at every level, and just gets better as it matures.

That first level of paladin, when I finally got to buckle that swash... mighty fun. It's got a very Errol Flynn feel.

[Khrysaes]

Some alternative or additional Dips.
TL:DR:
Pally Vengeance Oath 7.
Warlock 3.
Spell-less Revised Ranger 3.
Tunnel Fighter.

You could do Swash 10/BattleMaster 6/Spell-less Revised Ranger 4. this will still net you the 6 ASI, grant 8 superiority dice, and 2 fighting styles. Pair Tunnel Fighter, Sentinal and Riposte, you can get a lot of Opportunity attacks. Also get Advantage on Initiative, and a couple other ranger benefits like the Archetype.

Or you could do 9 Swash/7(8) Veng pally/ 3 Fighter or 3 Ranger or 4 Warlock. You do only get 4 ASI, but you get tunnel fighter, and Relentless attack, making you more mobile. And smites. Fighter gets better maneuvers and action surge, ranger gets advantage on initiative, and a bonus attack in the first round or a free hunter's mark equivalent, Warlock gets slots/short rest and Cha to damage, use slots to fuel smite. Take the 8th Pally or 4th warlock to get more spell slots/spells known.


Paladin of Vengeance 7 gets relentless attack, allowing them to move after they make an attack of opportunity. Pairs well with your concept for a mobile attacker. Also Smites.

And a little bit of what may be cheese.
Warlock 3+ Depending on how its read or ruled, the Invocations are based on character or warlock level. If it is Character level, taking this later can let you get hex, which is another boost to damage, a couple cantrips, and you will need Pact of the Blade. At level 12 +(take warlock 3+ here) you can get your charisma as bonus damage to you strikes. You also get 2+ spell slots to use with the Paladin above for smites on a short rest. And can use the Paladin slots to cast the warlock spells, like hex. I like hexblade and Raven Queen, which are in UA, but any warlock is decent.

Spell-Less Revised Ranger 2(or 3 for archetype). This is UA, in fact there are four to look at. First is the Revised Ranger, which is better than the normal ranger.

if you can take tunnel fighter as your fighting stance, which is in another UA in Light, Dark, Underdark, as a bonus action, your attacks of opportunity wont take your reaction. Pair this with Sneak attack and Paladin of vengence, you can dance around the battle field by moving to whoever is next in initiative, trying to incite an attack of opportunity. And any attack of opportunity per TURN is a sneak attack. You can take tunnel fighter as Fighter or Paladin too.

Spell Less is in the UA modifying Classes. Give up your ranger spells, and at level 2, gain 4 superiority dice and 2 battle master manuevers. This, along with advantage on Initiative from natural explorer and the extra fighting stance, is arguably better than taking fighter 6 and 7(which gets you 1 ASI, 2 Maneuvers and 1 dice). You can still take the fighter levels afterwards.

the 3rd level of Ranger gives you the archetype, Deep stalker in both the Revised Ranger and Underdark one will give you some bonus movement, and an extra attack on the first round of combat, and dark vision. Monster Slayer grants you something like Hunter's Mark or Hex, but in unlimited supply.

[djreynolds]

Hi all,

First post here! I've tried looking everywhere but I haven't found any viable advice when it comes to the build path I'm looking at. I'm trying to crunch some numbers regarding my fighter dip, how far to dip, and when exactly to dip, but there are inevitably some class features that fall out of the purview of stats alone, so I'll be needing some advice from experienced players who might've dabbled with a rogue/fighter. Just to preface my breakdown, I'm playing a combat heavy rogue. I won't get into the justification behind that, as the purpose here isn't really to discuss RP, but assume that I'll be darting in and out of the front line to help peel attackers off of my tanks and then shredding them 1v1.

Current stats:

Half Elf: 8/16/12/8/14/16
Lvl 3 Swashbuckler

End state for the build will be lvl 11, but feel free to give me advice with the assumption I get to 20.

Option A: Go 5 lvls into Swashbuckler, pick up evasion, the extra 1d6 sneak attack, an ASI, then dip 6 lvls into fighter to get Duelist, Shield Prof, Second Wind, TWF, Action Surge, Battle master, 2 ASIs and extra attack.

Option B: I keep my dip small, go 2 into fighter for TWF+second wind+Action surge, then go 9 Swashbuckler. End state sees me with 2 ASIs instead of 3. Pick up evasion, an in combat charm, and some additional expertise. AC will be 17.

Option C: Complete my dip into BM and pick up 3 maneuvers. Not really viable, unless I'm mistaken, as I'll losing 1d6 of sneak attack, charm, and not getting any of the fighter benefits.

Thanks!

You train of thought is good, but your answer is in your stats... 14 wisdom

Currently I'm still running a battlemaster/swashbuckler.... strength based in plate with shield master

Anyhow

Battlemaster gives you maneuvers, especially as a dex based combatant, you need. Trip, riposte, precision, menacing... trip is awesome from ranged or melee as it is their strength save versus your dex or strength. Menacing is awesome. So 3 levels of this is better than you think, especially for precision... 1d8 when you need it to hit and riposte. A round is made up of everyone's turn and you can only sneak attack once per turn.... there can be lots of turns in a round

But there is another class, ranger, who will give you more.

2 levels hunter's mark and archery style
3 levels horde breaker/colossus slayer... pick one
5 levels Pass without a trace, because your druid is not wasting this on your fighter clanking up and down in full plate and an extra attack

I would go with 4 ranger/ 7 swashbuckler as hunter's mark/colossus slayer will easily make up for the 3d6 in SA damage you will miss out on.... don't worry about the extra attack... worry about hiding and getting advantage so when you strike you roll 2d20s, better odds to land your sneak attack and crit as well

[Khrysaes]

I would go with 4 ranger/ 7 swashbuckler as hunter's mark/colossus slayer will easily make up for the 3d6 in SA damage you will miss out on.... don't worry about the extra attack... worry about hiding and getting advantage so when you strike you roll 2d20s, better odds to land your sneak attack and crit as well

If he can/did go Spell-less Revised Ranger with Monster Slayer chosen.

get 2 maneuvers, as you mentioned, those 4 are good. 4 dice.

Monster slayer gets basically endless hunter's mark(no bonus to track).

You do lose out on Hunter's Mark/Colossus combo, but you will have more sustainability. As the maneuvers restore per short rest rather than long rest, they are one shot though, but it frees your concentration.

Spell Less loses its power after 4th level. and I would recommend taking spells otherwise.

1 Warlock would net you hex, which is like hunter's mark but lower's all checks of one ability, say dex for their initiative, or wisdom for perception. Also restores on a short rest. Hexblade is awesome too, especially if you get curse bringer(req warlock 3) and lifedrinker. Also warlock can get cantrips, like booming blade or greenflame blade. Hexblades get the paladin spell that makes your attacks invoke fear, which is basically a lot more uses of Menacing maneuver. Wrathful Smite.

Curse Bringer makes hexblade hex act like hunter's mark or Hex, still only a minute long per short rest, but it also allows you to smite, if you didn't want to multiclass paladin, and just make a rogue/Warlock combo(although I would still get fighter or ranger for the extra attack). Or maybe you can use both smite and curse bringer, making a double smite?
I am literally repeating my post i made before yours. I am tired and rambling, My apologies.

[djreynolds]

This good advice, especially warlock for hex. I will often grab magic initiate as fighter just for hex, 1hour a day, ain't too shabby for 1d6 to all of my attacks and 2 cantrips

He could just stay rogue period and grab magic initiate and get hex, EB, and BB or just take a level of warlock

Half Elf: 8/16/12/8/14/16
Level 3 Swashbuckler

He will get 4 ASI by 10th level as a rogue. Somewhere in there grab warlock.

1 warlock/ 10 rogue

[Khrysaes]

This good advice, especially warlock for hex. I will often grab magic initiate as fighter just for hex, 1hour a day, ain't too shabby for 1d6 to all of my attacks and 2 cantrips

He could just stay rogue period and grab magic initiate and get hex, EB, and BB or just take a level of warlock

Half Elf: 8/16/12/8/14/16
Level 3 Swashbuckler

He will get 4 ASI by 10th level as a rogue. Somewhere in there grab warlock.

1 warlock/ 10 rogue

If you go with warlock, I would go with 9 rogue/2 warlock or 8/3, for the invocations and extra hex per rest.
You can change the invocations at level 12 to a combination of
Lifedrinker,
Curse Bringer(replicating Smite w/ spells on short rest cooldown),
Devil's Sight(its just really good), and Thirsting Blade(Extra Attack).

If you go 8 warlock, 10 rogue, you get 5 ASI and all 4 of those.

The last 2 levels, or 3 if you dont mind losing an ASI, I would say;
the Spell-less Revised Ranger, Fighting style, Natural Explorer, and 4 dice/2 Maneuvers. 2 still gets 5 ASI. I
f you take 3 levels, I would suggest Fighter Battle Master instead. Maybe even scout(if you get revised Ranger's natural explorer. )

[rooneg]

And a little bit of what may be cheese.
Warlock 3+ Depending on how its read or ruled, the Invocations are based on character or warlock level. If it is Character level, taking this later can let you get hex, which is another boost to damage, a couple cantrips, and you will need Pact of the Blade. At level 12 +(take warlock 3+ here) you can get your charisma as bonus damage to you strikes. You also get 2+ spell slots to use with the Paladin above for smites on a short rest. And can use the Paladin slots to cast the warlock spells, like hex. I like hexblade and Raven Queen, which are in UA, but any warlock is decent.

This is not a "how it's ruled" thing, the PHB Errata is clear, Warlock Invocations are based on Warlock level, not character level.

[Khrysaes]

This is not a "how it's ruled" thing, the PHB Errata is clear, Warlock Invocations are based on Warlock level, not character level.

AH, then never mind. I hadn't read the errata in quite a while. It makes warlock much less viable.

And of course, anything in UA needs to be approved by the DM.

[NathanielGarro]

You train of thought is good, but your answer is in your stats... 14 wisdom

Currently I'm still running a battlemaster/swashbuckler.... strength based in plate with shield master

Anyhow

Battlemaster gives you maneuvers, especially as a dex based combatant, you need. Trip, riposte, precision, menacing... trip is awesome from ranged or melee as it is their strength save versus your dex or strength. Menacing is awesome. So 3 levels of this is better than you think, especially for precision... 1d8 when you need it to hit and riposte. A round is made up of everyone's turn and you can only sneak attack once per turn.... there can be lots of turns in a round

But there is another class, ranger, who will give you more.

2 levels hunter's mark and archery style
3 levels horde breaker/colossus slayer... pick one
5 levels Pass without a trace, because your druid is not wasting this on your fighter clanking up and down in full plate and an extra attack

I would go with 4 ranger/ 7 swashbuckler as hunter's mark/colossus slayer will easily make up for the 3d6 in SA damage you will miss out on.... don't worry about the extra attack... worry about hiding and getting advantage so when you strike you roll 2d20s, better odds to land your sneak attack and crit as well

Just to let you know that I've decided to go with the UA Ranger as you suggested.

I realize now that with extra attack, colossus slayer, TWF, and the assorted Ranger spells I'll be getting that I'm guaranteed to be doing sneak attack+colossus slayer nearly every turn, and horde breaker will allow me to use my Swashbuckler Fancy Footwork feature to disengage freely regardless of how many enemies surround me.

I lose out on ASIs and maneuvers, but gain flat damage, spells, and features that sync better with swashbuckler.

Really wanted to thank you for this comment. Helped me out big time.