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Person_Man
2007-07-31, 10:39 AM
For a long time, I've been anti-ranged combat for most full BAB builds. Compared to standard melee combat combos, their damage is usually a joke. It works well if you're a Cleric archer and buff yourself to godhood, and decently if you're a Precision archer and add high amounts of Sneak Attack or Skirmish to the equation. I've even seen some workable Soulbow builds. But most Ranger, Fighter, Paladin, and other full BAB classes usually lag far behind their friends if they make the choice of using ranged combat.

But now I've found a way for ranged combat to be on par with melee builds. Here's how:


Dungeoncrasher: Dungeonscape: Alternate Fighter class feature. You give up your second and sixth level feats. If you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or other solid object, you deal 8d6 + 3(Str bonus) damage.

Shock Trooper: Complete Warrior: A much loved feat, thanks to the Heedless Charge maneuver. That's where most players stop - but I'd ask you to read further my friends. The Directed Bull Rush maneuver allows you to move an enemy one square to the left or right for each square you move them back, after a successful Bull Rush at the end of a Charge. And the Domino Bull Rush maneuver allows you to push Enemy A into Enemy B's square, getting a free Trip attempt against both foes, and importantly, it works on any successful Bull Rush.

Knockback: Complete Warrior: A +3 Weapon Enhancement that shares a name with a similar feat from Races of Stone (but that's another combo - Google Flaming Homer on this board to see it). Initiates a free Bull Rush as a Medium creature with a +8 bonus in addition to dealing normal damage. Only ranged weapons can be enchanted with this quality, and they bestow it on their ammunition.


By now, you can see where this is going. Invest Greater Manyshot (so that you can Move into the best angle and then fire multiple arrows), Power Attack, (required for) Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. Buy a +1 Composite Knockback Longbow. Have a friend cast Greater Magic Weapon on it to increase the enhancement bonus. Buy a wide variety of useful arrows, with different magical properties (so that you shoot +X Knockback Flaming Shocking whatever arrows), special materials, blunt arrows, etc.

Shoot enemies repeatedly until you knock them into wall, dealing 1d8+Str+Magic+8d6+3(Str bonus) damage. Note that once the enemy is next to the wall, there's nothing that stops you from Bull Rushing them into it repeatedly, wracking up very high damage without ever having to drop your To-Hit or AC in order to do so.

If there is no wall, shoot enemy into other enemies, doing normal damage to one, and potentially tripping both.

Alternatively, there are a wide variety of ways to create solid objects in the middle of any battlefield - Animate Object, various Wall spells, etc. Get Use Magic Device and buy a Wand, or better yet, work with the spellcasters in your party as a team for maximum effect.


Question: Does anyone know a way that you can make a ranged weapon count as a melee weapon? If so, you have the option of charging your enemy, shooting them with your bow, and using the Directed Bull Rush maneuver. I'm aware of Arrowmind, Exotic Weapon Master, and Order of the Bow Initiate. Each allows you to threaten with a ranged weapon or avoid AoO, but none of them make your bow count as both a ranged and a melee weapon. Is it possible?

Also, general ideas for any builds beyond the required Fighter 6 are welcome. As are any ideas about what this build should do when faced with sufficiently big and strong enemies, which generally laugh off Bull Rushes from Medium foes.

Iku Rex
2007-07-31, 11:09 AM
2 big problems.

1. The most recent version of Knockback is in the Magic Item Compendium as a +1 ability that works 3/day and pushes an opponent back 5 feet if he fails a Fort save.

2. The Knockback ability in CWar lets the weapon bull rush an opponent. It has it's own bull rush bonus and size category. In order to use dungeon crasher you must bull rush an opponent into a wall.


The way to take advantage of dungeon crasher is to use a creature with maxed out bull rush and the Knockback (RoS) feat or (not as good) the brutal surge (MIC) weapon ability.

Maxing bull rush/Str checks beyond Large+ size, Improved Bull Rush and high Str: Armbands of might (MIC), brute gauntlets (MIC), torc of the titans (MIC), belt of the champion (MIC), Str themed Complete Champion orgs, warforged juggernaut (ECS) PrC.

Edit: Also, the Kobold Endurance (RotD) feat. Thy +4 on Str checks only makes up for the -4 from Small size but would be worth it just to see the DM's face when your kobold fighter starts swatting ogres around. :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man
2007-07-31, 11:18 AM
Well then, I guess it doesn't work. I guess there is no high damage ranged combat combo available. Is there?

Iku Rex
2007-07-31, 11:21 AM
Depends on: what you mean by "high damage", cheese factor, the character's level and books allowed.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-31, 11:36 AM
IIRC, elvencraft (or something) bows count as either clubs or quarterstaves, but I think that allows switching between the two. Ah, here we are. Switching is a free action, you always threaten, even if using the bow as a ranged weapon. Longbows are quarterstaves, shortbows are clubs.

Darrin
2007-07-31, 11:52 AM
Well then, I guess it doesn't work. I guess there is no high damage ranged combat combo available. Is there?

Bloodstorm Blade (ToB) lets you make ranged attacks with melee weapons. Got to be something fairly obscene in there somewhere.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-31, 11:57 AM
Actually, it lets you make melee attacks with ranged weapons which are really melee weapons :smallconfused:

Thrown weapons can be treated as melee weapons, so you can power attack, shock trooper, charge, etc.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-31, 01:11 PM
Well then, I guess it doesn't work. I guess there is no high damage ranged combat combo available. Is there?

You could get quite far with either a high STR composite long bow, or use the oathbow in combination with arrows of combined baneX/holy/axiomatic that could add another 8d6 (plus higher critical) in some cases.

For ranged weapons, the best thing usually is the high number of attacks (and/or often availibility of the full attack option). If you somehow can climb up to 10 attacks/round (don't know any way in core), then it is quite likely that you hit one critical for the nice x3 damage modifier. Combine with some save-or-suck effect on the arrows/missiles (poison, or slaying arrows, even the normal ones are OK), and eventually the opponent is hit and rolls a low enough save. Also, while it may be difficult to get damage per arrow up to 50 for massive damage saves, it may be doable with the above 6d6 damage added.

- Giacomo

Person_Man
2007-07-31, 01:27 PM
You could get quite far with either a high STR composite long bow, or use the oathbow in combination with arrows of combined baneX/holy/axiomatic that could add another 8d6 (plus higher critical) in some cases.

For ranged weapons, the best thing usually is the high number of attacks (and/or often availibility of the full attack option). If you somehow can climb up to 10 attacks/round (don't know any way in core), then it is quite likely that you hit one critical for the nice x3 damage modifier. Combine with some save-or-suck effect on the arrows/missiles (poison, or slaying arrows, even the normal ones are OK), and eventually the opponent is hit and rolls a low enough save. Also, while it may be difficult to get damage per arrow up to 50 for massive damage saves, it may be doable with the above 6d6 damage added.

- Giacomo

Well, a Factotum 8 can take 1 extra Standard Action per encounter. And using White Raven Tactics from Tome of Battle, you can switch the Initiative order, potentially granting another full round action.

But using the same actions, you can usually get a lot more out of melee attacks. I'm hoping to find a way to have scaled damage on a ranged weapon comparable to the damage of a melee combo.

Also note that extra dice of damage are never multiplied during a crit, and a bow's crit range is garbage, and lots of enemies are immune to crit. So I don't think that any build that relies on crit is viable.


Re: Bloodstorm Blade

With a Harpoon (same damage coming out as going in) and the Power Throw feat, you can already wrack up massive thrown weapon damage. Throw in Master Thrower for Touch Attacks and Trip attacks as well. I was hoping for a ranged weapon combo, because I know how popular bows are, and I'd like to be able to cater to players who want to use them without being a Cleric Archer or something similar.

AlterForm
2007-07-31, 05:56 PM
What would you consider "high damage" in an archer PC?

IIRC, my scout/ranger was pumping out 24d6+4d8+12d6+STR*4+MAGIC*4 per round. I also have a core-only archer managing 4d8+12d6+18*4 per round on a single ranged touch attack per round. :smallbiggrin: (that's ~128 dmg per round on the core-only, btw)

Fax Celestis
2007-07-31, 06:01 PM
Isn't there a Ranged Bullrush feat, like there's Ranged Pin and Ranged Disarm?

Iku Rex
2007-07-31, 06:18 PM
I also have a core-only archer managing 4d8+12d6+18*4 per round on a single ranged touch attack per round. :smallbiggrin: (that's ~128 dmg per round on the core-only, btw)Spill. :smalltongue:

(I'm thinking Manyshot + brilliant energy, which means you have a -8 penalty on the attack and it's not actually a touch attack.)

Aximili
2007-07-31, 06:38 PM
Isn't there a Ranged Bullrush feat, like there's Ranged Pin and Ranged Disarm?
Not in complete warrior, but if there is one somewhere else, it's probably a Standard acation.

AlterForm
2007-07-31, 06:40 PM
Spill. :smalltongue:

(I'm thinking Manyshot + brilliant energy, which means you have a -8 penalty on the attack and it's not actually a touch attack.)

Ranger/Monk/PsyWar (monk mostly just cuz I had a few extra levels, and +3 saves is nice)

Important feats:

Manyshot
Psionic Shot
Fell shot

Manyshot(expend focus for fellshot). Recharge as move. And it still pwns undead+constructs.

Uses a Composite(+7) Longbow +5 of Flaming and Frost and Shocking and Collision

I have him statted up in PCGen...PM me with an email if anyone wants the file.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-31, 06:44 PM
Ranger/Monk/PsyWar (monk mostly just cuz I had a few extra levels, and +3 saves is nice)

Important feats:

Manyshot
Psionic Shot
Fell shot

Manyshot(expend focus for fellshot). Recharge as move. And it still pwns undead+constructs.

Uses a Composite(+7) Longbow +5 of Flaming and Frost and Shocking and Collision

I have him statted up in PCGen...PM me with an email if anyone wants the file.
Important to know: You cannot use Psionic Shot or Fell Shot with Manyshot.

AlterForm
2007-07-31, 06:51 PM
Important to know: You cannot use Psionic Shot or Fell Shot with Manyshot.

Why not?

I couldn't apply psionic shot to all four arrows of manyshot (since it's four damage rolls), but I could to one of them.

Fell shot calls for an attack roll, which manyshot has one of to connect with four arrows.

Iku Rex
2007-07-31, 06:53 PM
AlterForm, that's a good combo if the DM allows it.

(Psionics aren't usually considered part of the core rules though.)

Fax Celestis
2007-07-31, 06:53 PM
Why not?

I couldn't apply psionic shot to all four arrows of manyshot (since it's four damage rolls), but I could to one of them.

Fell shot calls for an attack roll, which manyshot has one of to connect with four arrows.

Psionic Shot and Fell Shot, first off, both require the expenditure of psionic focus. Psionic focus cannot be expended once to power two effects, so it's a one or the other deal. Further, Psionic Shot and Fell Shot are errated to require a standard action to use, one that includes an attack action. Manyshot does the same. You either get one or the other again.

AlterForm
2007-07-31, 07:01 PM
source/quote?

The "Official DnD Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a)" for the XPH has no mention of Fell Shot or Psionic Shot.

Also, does that mean they're completely worthless in a full-attack action? And would this also then apply to Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact?

And I know you get one effect per focus. That was just me touching on your two points.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-31, 07:14 PM
source/quote?

The "Official DnD Errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a)" for the XPH has no mention of Fell Shot or Psionic Shot.

Also, does that mean they're completely worthless in a full-attack action? And would this also then apply to Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact?

And I know you get one effect per focus. That was just me touching on your two points.

I...hm. I've no idea where I saw that, but I'm fairly certain I've read that somewhere. Let me check my XPH when I get home.

And as an answer to all your questions: Yes.

namo
2007-08-01, 01:46 PM
The FAQ has a small blurb about how "it probably doesn't work" (sic) to expand both your focus and your psicrystal's to use Deep Impact and Psionic Weapon at the same time. As part of a full attack, you could still use DI on the 1st attack and PW on the 2nd (for instance).

But the Fell Shot + Manyshot should work well. I wonder how I missed that... Thanks, AlterForm.

Person_Man
2007-08-01, 02:34 PM
To my knowledge, there is no feat or ability that grants a free Bull Rush attempt except for Knockback (Races of Stone). Knockback counts for any attack which you apply Power Attack to. So unless we can find a way to apply Power Attack (the specific feat, not some random Power Attack-ish X to Y ability) to ranged attacks, then its a non-starter.

Again, Bloodstorm Blade could pull it off with thrown weapons (since they can treat thrown weapons as melee weapons), not ranged weapons.

Also, I'm not sure about exactly what the RAW says, but I don't know any DMs who would allow you to expend your psionic focus on two different abilities at the same time. I think its clearly intended that once you expend your focus on one ability, its gone until you regain it somehow.

People have asked "What do you mean by a lot of damage?" This obviously varies based on the group you're playing with. But a modestly optimized melee build can easily deal 2*[Base+(Str*1.5)+(BAB*2)] damage per attack using a variety of methods, while providing some degree of battlefield control (i.e., standing in the way, preferably with a reach weapon, which is why they're called meatshields).

So a "strong" ranged build should be able to provide comparable consistent damage, plus some sort of special ability (Bull Rush, Disarm, Stun, whatever) to help control enemies. Again, a Cleric Archer could do it, but I was hoping for some non-magical version that I could hand to a new-ish player who wants to use a bow, but also doesn't want to be left in the dust by other more experienced players using somewhat optimized builds.