The oddest and most overpowered weapon in the game?

[SangoProduction]

So, in Sandstorm. Mastering The Perils Of Fire And Sand, they introduced some new weapons, and arguably the most powerful baseline weapon so far. The Scorpion-tail whip is a one handed exotic weapon that deals 1d33 damage for a small creature, or 1d43 damage for a medium creature.

Now, this is a very odd die type, but based on this pattern, it would also go up to 1d53 for a large creature, which is pretty huge. Admittedly, the damage value is unreliable, but the potential is enormous.

For those that don't understand, yes, I know it is a typo.

[ComaVision]

Curse you.

Only a munchkin like you would go dumpster diving so hard that you made the already OP Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat even worse! In my game, every enemy would be trying to sunder your weapon for being a rollplaying, minmaxing, meta-gaming, munchkin.

[Technetium43]

I actually got permission to use this once in a game. With the stipulation that I had to find an actual 43 sided die to use it with. :smalltongue:

No I didn't find one, and I looked.

[Firechanter]

Wait, is there anyone in the world that would _actually_ try to have a glaringly obvious typo be taken at face value?

[SangoProduction]

Curse you.

Only a munchkin like you would go dumpster diving so hard that you made the already OP Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat even worse! In my game, every enemy would be trying to sunder your weapon for being a rollplaying, minmaxing, meta-gaming, munchkin.

roflmao. awesome

[DarkSoul]

As far as weapons with actual stats, the kaorti resin keen fullblade is probably the most ridiculous weapon I can think of.

[icefractal]

For more plausible weapons, there's the Talenta Sharrash and Greathorn Minotaur Hammer. Both are arguably typos too, but not as blatantly so. However, they're also not that amazing, so it's probably not worth using up GM patience on those.

I think the Meteor Hammer / Rope Dart might be the most powerful weapons that unambiguously work the way they're printed. Double-reach (that can hit closer targets too) is extremely potent for the right type of character.

Runner up, the OA Kusari-gama. Can be used as either a reach weapon (that can hit adjacent) or a double weapon, weapon finesse applies, and I think it can trip/disarm as well.

There are better ways to get high damage, but a Heavy Mercurial Fullblade is kind of amusing for being triple-Exotic.

[Snowbluff]

There are better ways to get high damage, but a Heavy Mercurial Fullblade is kind of amusing for being triple-Exotic.

Can you add Kaorti for a 4th exotic?

[icefractal]

Not sure if it'd be compatible with Heavy (made out of gold or lead, IIRC), but maybe if you fluff it as some kind of alchemically modified resin. That would be ... 3d8 19-20/x4, I believe.

[ShurikVch]

So, in Sandstorm. Mastering The Perils Of Fire And Sand, they introduced some new weapons, and arguably the most powerful baseline weapon so far. The Scorpion-tail whip is a one handed exotic weapon that deals 1d33 damage for a small creature, or 1d43 damage for a medium creature.

Now, this is a very odd die type, but based on this pattern, it would also go up to 1d53 for a large creature, which is pretty huge. Admittedly, the damage value is unreliable, but the potential is enormous.

For those that don't understand, yes, I know it is a typo.Book of Vile Darkness WE: Even More Archfiends! (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/Archfiends.zip)
Daglum Shiverstone: Male dwarf Clr 5/Rgr 6; CR 11; Medium-size humanoid; HD 5d8+13 plus 6d10+12; hp 65; Init +2; Spd 20 ft.; AC 15, touch 12, flatfooted 13; Atk +10/+5 melee (1d8+3/x3, +1 cursespewing battleaxe) and +10 melee (1d62/x3, +1 handaxe); SQ Dwarf traits, favored enemies (humans +2, beasts +1), scent; AL LE; SV Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +9; Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 4.

[flappeercraft]

I want to make a lighting mace build with those things as aptitude weapons......

[daremetoidareyo]

I actually got permission to use this once in a game. With the stipulation that I had to find an actual 43 sided die to use it with. :smalltongue:

No I didn't find one, and I looked.

You'de have to make it bruva.

I too have been given the you gotta find a real rollable die verdict.

A guy on stackexchange wrote a proof for the non-existence of regular convex polyhedrons (I think? I'm no mathematician) with odd numbers of sides: nerdspeak (http://puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/8604/fair-n-sided-dice)
The guy below him in that thread suggested cylindrical dice, which can have an arbitrary number of sides that the die can settle on. The ends would be shaped such that they wouldn't be landed on.

43-sided cylindrical die might look like this: http://i.imgur.com/IvmQ6N5.png .
http://i.imgur.com/IvmQ6N5.png

So I started hewing an old table leg into a 43 sided cylinder, but that guy wound up getting hooked on heroin, so now we don't hang out.

[LordOfCain]

So I started hewing an old table leg into a 43 sided cylinder, but that guy wound up getting hooked on heroin, so now we don't hang out.

Well that took a turn for the macabre... but thanks for pointing to the StackExchange thing... Must control urge to make d43...

[atemu1234]

Well that took a turn for the macabre... but thanks for pointing to the StackExchange thing... Must control urge to make d43...

Hey, if you have the talent to make it, go ahead.

[Necroticplague]

An odd one I've seen was the Executioner's Mace (what Kyuss is using on Elder Evil's cover). While it's mostly unremarkable (2d6/x3 for medium), Bludgeoning and Piercing or Bludgeoning and Slashing is certainly an interesting spread of damage types. So it makes a decent enough backup weapon, to make sure you can cover all your bases at once. Curiously, it's actually a martial weapon, despite being almost a strict upgrade from a Greataxe (and WOTC's and Paizo's love of making non-core weapons Exotic to ensure they never, ever get used).

Plus, it looks pretty wierd as well. it's the big Freudian thing Kyuss is using on the cover of Elder Evils.

[atemu1234]

An odd one I've seen was the Executioner's Mace (what Kyuss is using on Elder Evil's cover). While it's mostly unremarkable (2d6/x3 for medium), Bludgeoning and Piercing or Bludgeoning and Slashing is certainly an interesting spread of damage types. So it makes a decent enough backup weapon, to make sure you can cover all your bases at once. Curiously, it's actually a martial weapon, despite being almost a strict upgrade from a Greataxe (and WOTC's and Paizo's love of making non-core weapons Exotic to ensure they never, ever get used).

Plus, it looks pretty wierd as well. it's the big Freudian thing Kyuss is using on the cover of Elder Evils.

Granted, that's the colossal version, so it's probably like 6d8 damage or something. Which is probably kind of small considering he's shown wiping out a castle with it.

[Inevitability]

I actually got permission to use this once in a game. With the stipulation that I had to find an actual 43 sided die to use it with. :smalltongue:

No I didn't find one, and I looked.

We live in the age of technology! Having a 3D printer create a tetracontakaitrigonal shape for you should be trivial. :smalltongue:

[MHCD]

An odd one I've seen was the Executioner's Mace (what Kyuss is using on Elder Evil's cover). While it's mostly unremarkable (2d6/x3 for medium), Bludgeoning and Piercing or Bludgeoning and Slashing is certainly an interesting spread of damage types. So it makes a decent enough backup weapon, to make sure you can cover all your bases at once. Curiously, it's actually a martial weapon, despite being almost a strict upgrade from a Greataxe (and WOTC's and Paizo's love of making non-core weapons Exotic to ensure they never, ever get used).

Plus, it looks pretty wierd as well. it's the big Freudian thing Kyuss is using on the cover of Elder Evils.

Best things about the Executioner's Mace:

1) Flavor.

2) It has excellent stats and versatility for a martial weapon.

3) Delicious flavor.

4) It works with both (Greater) Mighty Wallop and Whirling Blade.

5) What do you mean it's not awesome - dripping with cilantro lime jalapeño garlic flavor.

[Necroticplague]

More on the subject of 'slightly obscure with unusual mechanics', there's also the Crescent Knife. It's base stats are, well, to not mince words, crap. A medium one does 1d3, and it's crit is 20/x2. This makes it compare unfavorably to a dagger. However, it has the tasty bit where it gets two attack rolls per attack, which resolve separately. Or, in other words, it doubles your attacks with it. So it takes the optimization mantra of 'it's not the damage dice, it's the modifier', and runs with it. Sadly, it has two more downsides:
1. Light weapon, so not compatible with the biggest multipliers (PA and charging)
2. Looks like a tiny bat'leth.

[Uncle Pine]

So, in Sandstorm. Mastering The Perils Of Fire And Sand, they introduced some new weapons, and arguably the most powerful baseline weapon so far. The Scorpion-tail whip is a one handed exotic weapon that deals 1d33 damage for a small creature, or 1d43 damage for a medium creature.
I mean, a scorpion-tail whips only deals nonlethal damage unless you score a crit, so that already puts a severe limit on how overpowered it can be given that entire types of relatively common creatures are immune to it.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519659-Optimize-this-Weapon-EtherBlade-from-Fiend-Folio-p-68)'s a thread by daremetoidareyo about the etherblade, aka a the nonmagical force rifle you can crit incorporeal undeads with.

[Inevitability]

More on the subject of 'slightly obscure with unusual mechanics', there's also the Crescent Knife. It's base stats are, well, to not mince words, crap. A medium one does 1d3, and it's crit is 20/x2. This makes it compare unfavorably to a dagger. However, it has the tasty bit where it gets two attack rolls per attack, which resolve separately. Or, in other words, it doubles your attacks with it. So it takes the optimization mantra of 'it's not the damage dice, it's the modifier', and runs with it. Sadly, it has two more downsides:
1. Light weapon, so not compatible with the biggest multipliers (PA and charging)
2. Looks like a tiny bat'leth.

Sounds like sneak attack/iaijutsu focus material to me.

[flappeercraft]

Sounds like sneak attack/iaijutsu focus material to me.

I think you forgot Ubercharger in there

[Necroticplague]

I think you forgot Ubercharger in there

IDk, being a light weapon really puts a damper on most ubercharger shenanigans. Loses all benefits from PA (and thus Leap Attack and similar PA multipliers), doesn't get 1.5*STR to damage, can't be made into a more-than-two-handed weapon. Battle Jump still works, though.

[flappeercraft]

IDk, being a light weapon really puts a damper on most ubercharger shenanigans. Loses all benefits from PA (and thus Leap Attack and similar PA multipliers), doesn't get 1.5*STR to damage, can't be made into a more-than-two-handed weapon. Battle Jump still works, though.

You could get pounce and dual wield them. Then there is Valorous weapon enhancement, Battle jump and Headlong rush which leaves you at a 4x damage multiplier which is still some pretty good damage and even more if you add in Power lunge especially since its not too hard to get some ridiculous strength scores with some spellcaster help or magic items.

[ATHATH]

Nobody's mentioned this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization) yet?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I actually got permission to use this once in a game. With the stipulation that I had to find an actual 43 sided die to use it with. :smalltongue:

No I didn't find one, and I looked.

I ran into the same thing actually. It was tempting to pay someone to carve me a d43 just so I could use it here.

[Goladar]

In CAdv, The Vigilante PrC gets 33 3rd level spells.

[daremetoidareyo]

In CAdv, The Vigilante PrC gets 33 3rd level spells.

Did the errata catch it?

[mabriss lethe]

Nobody's mentioned this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization) yet?

Oh, god, the Sandblaster. It's not the most overpowered weapon in the game, but it certainly has its share of bizarre and hilarious optimization potential.
highlights:
-Creates a cone shaped area attack
-Doesn't normally use an attack roll, which makes it pointless to acquire EWP for it.
-Said lack of attack roll limits special ammunition types (overcome by taking the Penetrating shot, but then you actually need EWP for it.)
-Plays obscenely well with the Aptitude property (mostly for rapid reload shenanigans and boomerang daze)
-piddling base damage and range, but both can be improved easily, it also has a debuffing rider effect with a scaling DC based on your con.
-A poison user's best friend.
-Still useful as a throw-away tactic with zero optimization.

[Vizzerdrix]

IDk, being a light weapon really puts a damper on most ubercharger shenanigans. Loses all benefits from PA (and thus Leap Attack and similar PA multipliers), doesn't get 1.5*STR to damage, can't be made into a more-than-two-handed weapon. Battle Jump still works, though.

Why not apply alchemical gold/platinum to it to make it no longer a light weapon then?

[Ellrin]

This is a Pathfinder weapon, but all this talk about the sandblaster made me think of it. Anyone know any interesting ways to optimize the poisoned sand tube (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/poisoned-sand-tube/)?

[Swaoeaeieu]

Why not apply alchemical gold/platinum to it to make it no longer a light weapon then?

iirc, gold/platinum makes a weapon exotic and increases damage, but doesnt change the category from light->one handed->two handed

[ben-zayb]

I actually got permission to use this once in a game. With the stipulation that I had to find an actual 43 sided die to use it with. :smalltongue:

No I didn't find one, and I looked.
Have you asked the DM if a 100-sided is also available?

[Inevitability]

This is a Pathfinder weapon, but all this talk about the sandblaster made me think of it. Anyone know any interesting ways to optimize the poisoned sand tube (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/poisoned-sand-tube/)?

Well, it seems like you'd get multiple uses out of a single vial of poison at no real cost, so it's got that going for it.

[Vizzerdrix]

iirc, gold/platinum makes a weapon exotic and increases damage, but doesnt change the category from light->one handed->two handed
I just looked it up. You are correct. Why do I remember otherwise though? :smallconfused:

[Swaoeaeieu]

I just looked it up. You are correct. Why do I remember otherwise though? :smallconfused:

the odd wording between light weapons and heavy weapons making you think they are related when in truth they are different mechanical rules?

[Keral]

More on the subject of 'slightly obscure with unusual mechanics', there's also the Crescent Knife. It's base stats are, well, to not mince words, crap. A medium one does 1d3, and it's crit is 20/x2. This makes it compare unfavorably to a dagger. However, it has the tasty bit where it gets two attack rolls per attack, which resolve separately. Or, in other words, it doubles your attacks with it. So it takes the optimization mantra of 'it's not the damage dice, it's the modifier', and runs with it. Sadly, it has two more downsides:
1. Light weapon, so not compatible with the biggest multipliers (PA and charging)
2. Looks like a tiny bat'leth.

This sounds awesome with the wounding property. Better yet if every iterative attack also resolves twice.
Get two and you could deal huge con damage pretty fast. ( against everything who isn't immune to it)

[CIDE]

The answer is the war hammer.


In the hands of the smallest playable race with the titan bloodline

[Mato]

A weapon grafted +3 morphing(crescent knife) manyfanger dagger wielded by an antromorphic snake cleric wearing a collar of venom and that cast an admixture venomfire is pretty close.

Weapon graft out of the fiendish codex turns the crescent knife into a natural weapon. As a snake it already has a natural weapon allowing it to be a target of venomfire and the collar imbues the knife with poison. All together it deals four times your normal damage and twice your caster level in d6s, and you get twice as many attacks as normal.

Unarmed strike, with a large amount of size increases, can deal even more as well as benefit from much of the same combo by using morphing to create a gauntlet.

[ComaVision]

Here's a d43:
http://dicecollector.com/images/large/3f/4a8b525f00df22b228d84361377eb8.jpgImage from Kevin Cook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?50601-Got-any-Dice-Questions).

[Seerow]

Interestingly pretty much all weapons end up turning into d6s or d8s once they step up to large, but how many depends on the base damage (since it needs to be an upgrade).

A d43 has an average of 22 damage, so a large one would need to be either 5d8 damage or 7d6 damage. So if you get up to Colossal you are looking at either 15d8 damage or 21d6 damage.

This both gets you ridiculous damage and ignores the need to find the ever elusive d43 for your damage rolls.

[Dagroth]

More on the subject of 'slightly obscure with unusual mechanics', there's also the Crescent Knife. It's base stats are, well, to not mince words, crap. A medium one does 1d3, and it's crit is 20/x2. This makes it compare unfavorably to a dagger. However, it has the tasty bit where it gets two attack rolls per attack, which resolve separately. Or, in other words, it doubles your attacks with it. So it takes the optimization mantra of 'it's not the damage dice, it's the modifier', and runs with it. Sadly, it has two more downsides:
1. Light weapon, so not compatible with the biggest multipliers (PA and charging)
2. Looks like a tiny bat'leth.

What book is this from? Throw a level of Warblade in to use Shadow Blade for +Dex damage while in Assassin's Stance and you're doing some highly respectable damage when you're flanking or otherwise sneak-attacking.

Make them Colossal and throw them with Hulking Hurler.

[Necroticplague]

What book is this from? Throw a level of Warblade in to use Shadow Blade for +Dex damage while in Assassin's Stance and you're doing some highly respectable damage when you're flanking or otherwise sneak-attacking.

Make them Colossal and throw them with Hulking Hurler.

Dragon 275. Has an article on exotic weapons, it's one of them.

[Jack_McSnatch]

I saw a martial weapon in manual of the planes called the ripper. Not very impressive by itself, it's exactly like a greatsword, no reach or trip or anything, but it's a polearm. This becomes fairly awesome if you use haft fighting from dragon compendium. It effectively becomes a double weapon with 2d6/1d6 19-20×2/x2. I think you could only add heavy or kaorti to the spearhead, but I'm sure you could do something with the haft. Not the most overpowered weapon I don't think, but it could be strong with the right build.

Edit; actually it was the Planar handbook. Whoops

[bekeleven]

Did the errata catch it?
Let's let the pros handle this one

Errata in this file includes material that the Wizards of the Coast RPG R&D department and editors feel might affect your gameplay experience. It does not include minor, typographical errors—the sort of thing that might be fixed in a reprint but has no impact on your game.

[atemu1234]

Let's let the pros handle this one

And then it was never actually reprinted?

[daremetoidareyo]

And then it was never actually reprinted?

Vigilante has 33 3rd level spells. Whoop! But no 4th level spells. Boo!

Man, too bad that spell list is terrible. You can be an illusory script factory I guess.

[Rebel7284]

Manyfanged Dagger?

[AOKost]

So, in Sandstorm. Mastering The Perils Of Fire And Sand, they introduced some new weapons, and arguably the most powerful baseline weapon so far. The Scorpion-tail whip is a one handed exotic weapon that deals 1d33 damage for a small creature, or 1d43 damage for a medium creature.

Now, this is a very odd die type, but based on this pattern, it would also go up to 1d53 for a large creature, which is pretty huge. Admittedly, the damage value is unreliable, but the potential is enormous.

For those that don't understand, yes, I know it is a typo.

Every group I ever played in ruled this as a misprint and therefore it was 1d3 for small and 1d4 for medium.

One of my favorite weapons is the Chainblade, from Arms and Armor, p. 8, for 1d6 for small, and 1d8 for medium, and it has a 17-20 x2 crit, slashing/piercing... I can't remember if it has gives a threat range farther than farther than 5 feet as a normal melee weapon.

I also love the Greatbow, the Dragonbone Bow, Great Crossbow, Scimitars, great Scimitars, the Elven weapons, and more.

[Doc_Maynot]

No mention of the Duom from dragon compendium? Martial spear. 1d8/x3 piercing, reach, can attack adjacent targets. While not powerful, it still has to be my favorite.

[Vizzerdrix]

If we are going with favorites, Id like to mention both the spikards, the alchemy blade, and the gnome calculus. The last one is amazing and everyone should have one.

[Mato]

Manyfanged Dagger?Where else but Serpent Kingdoms? Page 152, I guess it's +1 not +3 through. Reverse engineered, quadruple damage is only thirty thousand gold.

[bekeleven]

Where else but Serpent Kingdoms? Page 152, I guess it's +1 not +3 through. Reverse engineered, quadruple damage is only thirty thousand gold.

Lucky for the sanity of GMs everywhere, weapon special abilities don't work that way.

[Rebel7284]

Lucky for the sanity of GMs everywhere, weapon special abilities don't work that way.

Well, special abilities can be added to existing items, so taking a Manyfang Dagger and adding morphing to turn it into a Crescent Knife for lolz could be a thing because why have 4x the damage when you can have 8x ;)

[bekeleven]

Well, special abilities can be added to existing items, so taking a Manyfang Dagger and adding morphing to turn it into a Crescent Knife for lolz could be a thing because why have 4x the damage when you can have 8x ;)

OK then. I want to add the Flaming special ability to my Forceful Skylance (MIC). How much does it cost?

[druid zook]

Regarding the greathorn minotaur's greathammer from MM4, has anyone found a price for it?

[CIDE]

Regarding the greathorn minotaur's greathammer from MM4, has anyone found a price for it?


No offically listed price but with the exception of the crit multiplier it's identical to the Goliath Greathammer. Which I think was 30gp. And no, the Goliath Warhammer was not an errata to the Minotaur Greathammer for those that claim otherwise.

[Inevitability]

Regarding the greathorn minotaur's greathammer from MM4, has anyone found a price for it?

Can't you just get it through the Morphing property or with Call Weaponry?

[Rebel7284]

OK then. I want to add the Flaming special ability to my Forceful Skylance (MIC). How much does it cost?

Probably 6000gp, but ask your DM as this is not made 100% clear and I can see an argument for 10000gp. :)

Magic Weapons/Armor can further be enhanced IS a rule, but, unsurprisingly, it's not always 100% clear HOW to actually do it.

[bekeleven]

Probably 6000gp, but ask your DM as this is not made 100% clear and I can see an argument for 10000gp. :)

Magic Weapons/Armor can further be enhanced IS a rule, but, unsurprisingly, it's not always 100% clear HOW to actually do it.

Taking the Bladed Crossbow, can I add 2310 GP to the price of any weapon and make it function like a battleaxe? Or does that only work heavy crossbows? Just crossbows? Just ranged weapons? Light weapons? Can I make a Ghost Net into a Ghost Spear, which deals damage - and can the "extrapolated weapon special ability" entangle a foe or is that a property of the net, meaning a Ghost Spear would be unable? Does Ghost Net include the price of Ghost Touch, meaning it costs more to upgrade, or is it a flat cost to never miss ghosts?

If applying a rule results in "ask your DM," either the rule is dysfunctional or it's not a rule. In this case, the latter.

[Dagroth]

Taking the Bladed Crossbow, can I add 2310 GP to the price of any weapon and make it function like a battleaxe? Or does that only work heavy crossbows? Just crossbows? Just ranged weapons? Light weapons? Can I make a Ghost Net into a Ghost Spear, which deals damage - and can the "extrapolated weapon special ability" entangle a foe or is that a property of the net, meaning a Ghost Spear would be unable? Does Ghost Net include the price of Ghost Touch, meaning it costs more to upgrade, or is it a flat cost to never miss ghosts?

If applying a rule results in "ask your DM," either the rule is dysfunctional or it's not a rule. In this case, the latter.

The Scorpion Kama (MIC) is a +1 weapon that does damage equal to a Monk's Unarmed Strike. The item lists at 6,302 GP. A +1 Kama lists at 2,302 GP. A +2 Kama is 8,302 GP. So would a +2 Scorpion Kama logically be 12,302 GP?

Would adding the "does damage equal to a Monk's Unarmed Strike" effect to another weapon logically be 4,000 GP? Or would it be less, because the Scorpion Kama is part of an Item Set and gives additional bonuses if you have 2 or 3 of the items?

[Rebel7284]

If applying a rule results in "ask your DM," either the rule is dysfunctional or it's not a rule. In this case, the latter.

Sorry, it's clearly a rule



ADDING NEW ABILITIES
A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no
restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not
magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword,
with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal
sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

There are clearly MANY cases where the cost difference can't be calculated by looking at a simple table.
That does not necessarily make this rule dysfunctional as long as the price difference exists in the particular game, which is up to the DM.
I can certainly see a DM creating a houserule that the price difference needs to be easily calculable by existing tables for new abilities to be added, but that would be a houserule.

I will note that PLENTY of other rules and abilities explicitly require DM adjudication. Take a look at Leadership.

[Rebel7284]

The Scorpion Kama (MIC) is a +1 weapon that does damage equal to a Monk's Unarmed Strike. The item lists at 6,302 GP. A +1 Kama lists at 2,302 GP. A +2 Kama is 8,302 GP. So would a +2 Scorpion Kama logically be 12,302 GP?


Logically, yes. However, since there isn't a table anywhere that explicitly states this, you have to find out if that logic holds true in your world.



Would adding the "does damage equal to a Monk's Unarmed Strike" effect to another weapon logically be 4,000 GP? Or would it be less, because the Scorpion Kama is part of an Item Set and gives additional bonuses if you have 2 or 3 of the items?

There is no rules as far as I know for moving individual abilities to different weapons, so it would be 100% a custom item.

Basically, I see a very important distinction between the two cases.
- When adding existing abilities to existing items, the rules explicitly say that you CAN. Then the rules proceed to break down unless the DM actually helps tell you the cost.
- When creating completely new items, there is nothing that says that you are guaranteed to have a way to make such an item.

[Dagroth]

Logically, yes. However, since there isn't a table anywhere that explicitly states this, you have to find out if that logic holds true in your world.



There is no rules as far as I know for moving individual abilities to different weapons, so it would be 100% a custom item.

Basically, I see a very important distinction between the two cases.
- When adding existing abilities to existing items, the rules explicitly say that you CAN. Then the rules proceed to break down unless the DM actually helps tell you the cost.
- When creating completely new items, there is nothing that says that you are guaranteed to have a way to make such an item.

Actually, all rules on creating custom items specifically mention that an items cost/value should be measured against existing items if an item with a similar/the same ability does exist.

[bekeleven]

The Scorpion Kama (MIC) is a +1 weapon that does damage equal to a Monk's Unarmed Strike. The item lists at 6,302 GP. A +1 Kama lists at 2,302 GP. A +2 Kama is 8,302 GP. So would a +2 Scorpion Kama logically be 12,302 GP?If you try to reverse engineer the scorpion kama's ability, then maybe it costs 6,000 GP to add to a new weapon. Or maybe it's costed as a +1 weapon with a cost reduction for being an exotic weapon. Any formula you decide for it will break down when applied to other weapons, meaning that there is no formula you can use without it being instantly player fiat.

Luckily, there's no rule that allows you to do so, so the situation never comes up.


Sorry, it's clearly a rule
No restriction, you say? And here I thought the restriction was that you could add new abilities, by selecting them from the section of the book that says "weapon abilities." And not by selecting them from a section of the book that does not say these words.

Here are some abilities that appear on weapons:

Hardening costs 480GP to bake into a weapon
Greater Magic Fang can be permanencied at CL20 8.65k GP, and monk unarmed strikes are manufactured weapons, so anybody paying 8k for a +2 weapon is a total sucker!
The ability to reroll any die 1/Day as an extraordinary ability and to cast Wish
Become intelligent if you take a feat
Gain immunity to specific spells and knock people down


If you think that things called "Specific weapons" present magical powers with the exact same rules as the section with "Weapon Properties" before it in every book, then why are there two sections? Why not present everything as weapon properties? What, in your mind, were the designers intending when they made the immunity to heat metal and chill metal part of a specific weapon? Was it "Players can still use this whenever they want, we're just making them do more math" and a mustache twirl?

Not to mention the issue with pricing multiple such abilities (like The Fist's 1/day power and its spell immunity power) - how do you price those two out, since we can apparently chop these things up? Or how about something like the Explosive Sling, which is a +1 Sling with extra powers for 36,300? Are its extra powers worth 34000, or are they worth a +3 bonus for one power and a 4000 GP bonus for the second? How about the Forceful Skylance, which is worth either a +1 power or 6000 GP?


There are clearly MANY cases where the cost difference can't be calculated by looking at a simple table.
Or, to rephrase:

This rule exists and is clearly stated, but using it as intended requires DM adjucation.
If playing in a game, you can make a weapon like this... and then submit it to the DM for approval, since it's homebrew. The DM may choose to accept that weapon. Or, if both of the weapons you mean to combine are bannably broken on their own, one from the worst-balanced 3.5 book outside of core and the other from the second dragon magazine issue after the release of 3.5, they may reject it.

In either case, it doesn't belong in optimization discussions, which are assumed to be DM-neutral.

[Rebel7284]

No restriction, you say? And here I thought the restriction was that you could add new abilities, by selecting them from the section of the book that says "weapon abilities." And not by selecting them from a section of the book that does not say these words.


"No restrictions" is the wording the DMG uses. I explicitly mention that I expect it to reference existing weapon abilities, so
Flaming: Yes
+2: Yes
Hardening: No, custom item.



Gain immunity to specific spells


Spellblade, being a flat 6000gp increase, can for sure be added to any and every weapon without any confusion. :)

The other ones I do not recognize as being specifically listed as weapon abilities.



If you think that things called "Specific weapons" present magical powers with the exact same rules as the section with "Weapon Properties" before it in every book, then why are there two sections? Why not present everything as weapon properties? What, in your mind, were the designers intending when they made the immunity to heat metal and chill metal part of a specific weapon? Was it "Players can still use this whenever they want, we're just making them do more math" and a mustache twirl?

Not to mention the issue with pricing multiple such abilities (like The Fist's 1/day power and its spell immunity power) - how do you price those two out, since we can apparently chop these things up? Or how about something like the Explosive Sling, which is a +1 Sling with extra powers for 36,300? Are its extra powers worth 34000, or are they worth a +3 bonus for one power and a 4000 GP bonus for the second? How about the Forceful Skylance, which is worth either a +1 power or 6000 GP?


None of this is applicable to my argument. While the "no restrictions" part can certainly be read as allowing custom items, I advocate adding existing abilities which the rule unambiguously allows.



Or, to rephrase:

If playing in a game, you can make a weapon like this... and then submit it to the DM for approval, since it's homebrew. The DM may choose to accept that weapon. Or, if both of the weapons you mean to combine are bannably broken on their own, one from the worst-balanced 3.5 book outside of core and the other from the second dragon magazine issue after the release of 3.5, they may reject it.


My argument is that based on the rule on page 288, when you use and existing weapon and add existing weapon enhancements to it (listed and marked as such), the rules explicitly allow it. The cost may need to be defined separately, but such a change to the weapon is explicitly allowed. That is all and that is different, even if just philosophically, from a custom item.



In either case, it doesn't belong in optimization discussions, which are assumed to be DM-neutral.

Well in that case we can never talk about Leadership or a Monk's unarmed strike or anything Factotum then. :P

[Dagroth]

If you try to reverse engineer the scorpion kama's ability, then maybe it costs 6,000 GP to add to a new weapon. Or maybe it's costed as a +1 weapon with a cost reduction for being an exotic weapon. Any formula you decide for it will break down when applied to other weapons, meaning that there is no formula you can use without it being instantly player fiat.

Luckily, there's no rule that allows you to do so, so the situation never comes up.

1) There are no "cost reductions for being an exotic weapon".

2) The item has a list price of 6,302. A +1 Kama has a list price of 2,302. If you want to say that adding "do Monk unarmed damage and +1" is 6,000, that's fine. But given we already know the price of adding +1, it leaves a very clear value for the remaining ability. It's not like it has multiple unique abilities, unless you count the bonuses it gets when you have other items of the set. And if you say that the final list price is modified by those powers, then the value of "does Monk Unarmed Strike Damage" must be even less than 4,000.

However, it is reasonable to state that 4,000 is a valid price for such an enchantment. Because...

3) As I stated, the rules explicitly state you can make your own magic items that are not in the book. The rules explicitly give rules on making such magic items. The rules explicitly state that if an item does something similar to an existing item, it should have a cost similar to the existing item.

This is not "homebrew". Homebrew would be stating that all magic items cost triple the XP listed to make. Homebrew would be stating that weapons with greater than +5 enhancement bonus and/or greater than +10 total effective bonus can be made by non-epic characters.

Allowing a character to craft a +1 Meteor Hammer that does damage equal to the Monk wielder's Unarmed Strike Damage for a sale value of 6,315 (I don't recall what the crafting cost is and I don't have my books handy) is not "Homebrew".

Custom magic items made according to the rules are not "homebrew".

[Rebel7284]

Allowing a character to craft a +1 Meteor Hammer that does damage equal to the Monk wielder's Unarmed Strike Damage for a sale value of 6,315 (I don't recall what the crafting cost is and I don't have my books handy) is not "Homebrew".

Custom magic items made according to the rules are not "homebrew".

Even assuming that ANY item you can think of can be created (which I don't see spelled out and not how most games I know are ran), the exact requirements and costs associated with creating a particular magic item are guidelines that explicitly leave it up to the DM and vague things like "flavor" and "intuition" are allowed and encouraged to affect it! For example, I can totally see a price increase for adding the Scorpion Kama ability to something that is not a monk weapon.

[bekeleven]

3) As I stated, the rules explicitly state you can make your own magic items that are not in the book. The rules explicitly give rules on making such magic items. The rules explicitly state that if an item does something similar to an existing item, it should have a cost similar to the existing item.
Well, since the rules do so much explicit stating about making exactly this item, I eagerly await the formula telling me its cost. If it's just as valid as a +1 Warning Spellblade quarterstaff with a wand chamber (14400 GP), then surely the rules can explain.

Or maybe, just maybe, a weapon that deals 8 times your unarmed strike damage per hit isn't "doing something similar" in the first place, so your argument fails on that level too.

[Dagroth]

Even assuming that ANY item you can think of can be created (which I don't see spelled out and not how most games I know are ran), the exact requirements and costs associated with creating a particular magic item are guidelines that explicitly leave it up to the DM and vague things like "flavor" and "intuition" are allowed and encouraged to affect it! For example, I can totally see a price increase for adding the Scorpion Kama ability to something that is not a monk weapon.

But why? Just because the Scorpion Kama ability is on the weapon, doesn't mean the Monk can Flurry with it. That's a separate thing.

I would post the specific language used in the books, but that's frowned upon.