Character concept: something like the ogre mage, but with less suck

[dehro]

Pretty much what it says in the title... How does one go about making an ogre mage melee focused character who uses sorcery to bring the pain?
I'm not in need of a new character but am curious a to how to make the above work in the campaign I'm currently playing.
We're epic levels (23 as of yesterday) and it's entirely possible that I'll die the next session. As a group we like to keep optimisation at the basics, avoiding the umpteen dips and limiting ourselves to the use of one, two classes at most, and one single prestige class (I could swing two, but only after having taken all the levels of the first prestige class, to justify moving on to a second one).
I like the general combination of abilities and skills that an ogre mage has, but I am also aware that he'd make a piss poor frontline character and that -7LA might just be to much to overcome. I very much like the idea of enhancing his fighting chops with sorcerer spells.. but I'm not sure if it would be at all feasible or whether I'd just fall behind at every turn..
Has anybody tried to make an ogre mage melee gish?
If that just wasn't possible, how would you go about making something of the same flavour?
Think hulking creature that uses arcane spells to buff/debuff self and others and physically beat the tar out of things and people...

[Inevitability]

Primordial Giant Half-Ogre, perhaps? Large size, reasonable ability bonuses for a gish, and more than enough room for class levels. Also, Invisibility on the whole party all-day is neat.

[Karl Aegis]

Psychic Warrior
Psionic Body
Psionic Talent x 8-10
Expanded Knowledge Metamorphosis
Metamorphic Transfer

Metamorphosis into a Phasm then change shape into whatever Large or smaller creature you want to (including some guys in the epic level handbook)

Use the rest of your powers for COOL STUFF! like expansion and breath of the black dragon.

[dehro]

I should've specified, psionics (and monks) are off limits

[Buufreak]

I should've specified, psionics (and monks) are off limits

I really want to know the reason why. Like, its actually going to stay on my mind all day at work.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Could do a fairly standard gish with a large/powerful build creature - with Half-Giant banned as a psionic, Goliath is the obvious choice. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook)for general gish advice.

Another possibility would be a gish based off of Wu Jen, to get the Giant Size spell (or getting that spell some other way). Maybe Crusader or Warblade 1/Wu Jen 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant* Champion 4 as the 20 level stub, attaching the last level of Abjurant Champion and more Wu Jen levels post-epic, or possibly taking a race with some LA. This also gets you the Body Outside Body and Transcend Mortality/Emerald Immolation tricks, incidentally.

You could also get the hulking creature part via other spells, such as shapechange.

*Two prestige classes, yes, but you have finished the first one.

[dehro]

I really want to know the reason why. Like, its actually going to stay on my mind all day at work.

Both me and the DM (and most of our co players) agree that the monk should only be present in an Asian inspired setting, with ninjas and samurai and such. It's a flavour thing and as a rule we don't redesign the flavour of classes to fit in the campaign. In this particular setting, if there are any monks within the enemy ranks, it's only to enhance the feeling of alienation/otherworldliness they bring to the table, in their role of enemies from another plane/dimension.

[Particle_Man]

Wasn't the Ogre Mage (Japanese Ogre) originally from an Asian idea too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre_mage

[Buufreak]

Both me and the DM (and most of our co players) agree that the monk should only be present in an Asian inspired setting, with ninjas and samurai and such. It's a flavour thing and as a rule we don't redesign the flavour of classes to fit in the campaign. In this particular setting, if there are any monks within the enemy ranks, it's only to enhance the feeling of alienation/otherworldliness they bring to the table, in their role of enemies from another plane/dimension.

Wow. Okay, I totally accept this as solid reasoning. I salute you for it!

[Gildedragon]

Primordial Half Minotaur Giant Eneko

+12 str, -2 dex, +8 con, +2 int, +0 wis, +2 cha
(a 22 point buy gets you ogre mage stats)

Large with powerful build LA +2 which ends up being bought out and caught up by 20th lvl

You look a lot like the usual Ogre Mage because of the heritage of the Eneko

Go Sorcerer or Wizard into some gish PRC JPM or Abjurant Champ

Wield a Huge weapom

[Grod_The_Giant]

Could do a fairly standard gish with a large/powerful build creature - with Half-Giant banned as a psionic, Goliath is the obvious choice. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook)for general gish advice.
I'll second this. Something like a Goliath Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 10/Sorcerer +1 ought to do you fine-- BAB +19, 21st level Sorcerer spellcasting

If you want a simpler route, a straight Battle Sorcerer, with the Stalwart Sorcerer ACF stapled on top, works decently well. Your spells known are shot to crap, but you have a medium BAB, effectively a d12 HD, can cast in light armor and get some martial weapon proficiencies to boot. A straight Bard (or a Bard/Abjurant Champion) works surprisingly well too, especially if you're looking at the buffing/debuffing side of things.

[fulong]

Primordial Menta Cyclopean with Venerable age.

Total LA: +0

So much better than half giant or eneko with those awful +1 LA adjustments especially when you wanna be a wizard.

Of course if you also wanna boost your str as well, I would go with something along the line of Primordial Giant Incarnated Construct Half Minotaur Lolth Touched Warforged.

[dehro]

dragon magazine is a bit too far out, as sources go.. we've a point based system of things beyond core and perfect manuals we can pick.. and if I went to my DM with a race lifted from a dragon magazine, he'd throw said magazine in my face.. and since I've got it on my laptop, I'd rather not get smacked in the face with it:smallbiggrin:
also, our setting is faerun-inspired, which means stuff from eberron is not kosher either, ruling out the eneko.

[Gildedragon]

dragon magazine is a bit too far out, as sources go.. we've a point based system of things beyond core and perfect manuals we can pick.. and if I went to my DM with a race lifted from a dragon magazine, he'd throw said magazine in my face.. and since I've got it on my laptop, I'd rather not get smacked in the face with it:smallbiggrin:
also, our setting is faerun-inspired, which means stuff from eberron is not kosher either, ruling out the eneko.

It also rules out the primordial giant template too.
But try pitching your DM the Eneko as half ogre-mages... Which is essentially what they are
Goliath or Half Giant are your best choices then.

Dragmag "Magic Blooded" template might be handy to sorcerer out

You might also want to look at homebrew monster classes for Ogre Mage

[dehro]

well.. drat!
I'm starting to think that the whole concept of a large melee sorcerer with a few special abilities just isn't a very good option overal...
oh, well...I guess I'll have to try not to die then.

[Grod_The_Giant]

well.. drat!
I'm starting to think that the whole concept of a large melee sorcerer with a few special abilities just isn't a very good option overal...
oh, well...I guess I'll have to try not to die then.
Goliath is from Races of Stone, and Half-Ogres are also in Savage Species-- both are just LA +1, which is doable, and both should fill your "big and Giant" needs without falling outside your source limits, I don't think.

[dehro]

Goliath is from Races of Stone, and Half-Ogres are also in Savage Species-- both are just LA +1, which is doable, and both should fill your "big and Giant" needs without falling outside your source limits, I don't think.

agreed. they seem the best options.

[ATHATH]

I should've specified, psionics (and monks) are off limits
Why is (are?) Psionics banned?

[Rizban]

Goliath is from Races of Stone, and Half-Ogres are also in Savage Species-- both are just LA +1, which is doable, and both should fill your "big and Giant" needs without falling outside your source limits, I don't think.

Half-ogre was updated to 3.5 in Races of Destiny and given a +2 LA.

[dehro]

Why is (are?) Psionics banned?

Me no likey. I've always associated psionic powers with science fiction/superheroes more than with fantasy, from Asimov all the way down to Scarlett Witch, and I'm not to keen on contamination. They may be well explained/integrated and all, but I'm still not in favour... there are enough classic fantasy alternatives to not have to read up on yet another set of rules and powers (and force my DM to do the same). Now...our other main opponents are the mindflayers, so if they happen to have psionic powers, again, that only helps giving them an alien feel, which would go away if one of us had the same skills.
As with the monks,I don't want to be this guy
https://vhx.imgix.net/thegamers/assets/6ff709a5-b132-4f9e-a8ce-68063dd87d58/9301290889_941185fa48_o.jpg?fit=crop&fm=jpg&h=720&w=1280

[Inevitability]

Goliath is from Races of Stone, and Half-Ogres are also in Savage Species-- both are just LA +1, which is doable, and both should fill your "big and Giant" needs without falling outside your source limits, I don't think.

There's an entirely reasonable case to be made that Half-Ogres are +2 LA as a result of being listed as having that in Races of Destiny, though.

[dehro]

How does that even work, anyway.. do you become large with powerful build bringing you on the verge of huge? What if you cast enlarge person on top of that?

[Dagroth]

How does that even work, anyway.. do you become large with powerful build bringing you on the verge of huge? What if you cast enlarge person on top of that?

Because Half-Ogre is Giant Type, Enlarge Person won't work on them.

Now, it means that for grappling you count as Huge (if you want). It means that you can use Huge weapons if you want. It means you're only Large (10'x10') for Space & Reach purposes.

If you can get the "Enlarge" spell from Savage Species, you can use that on yourself.

I second the Warblade/Stalwart Sorcerer/JPM route suggested earlier.

[dehro]

reading through stuff, I'd be inclined to consider the half ogre from races of destiny (what with savage species being 3.0 and therefore source for objection..) where however it is an actual race, rather than a template that can be added on top of another race...
so.. it doesn't really mesh with goliath? (not that I'd need it to, I guess.. I could just go half-ogre?)

[Inevitability]

reading through stuff, I'd be inclined to consider the half ogre from races of destiny (what with savage species being 3.0 and therefore source for objection..) where however it is an actual race, rather than a template that can be added on top of another race...
so.. it doesn't really mesh with goliath? (not that I'd need it to, I guess.. I could just go half-ogre?)

You can't be both a half-ogre and a goliath without the dragon magazine template, no.

However, you could take three levels in Stoneblessed, then a level in barbarian (goliath substitution level), which would give you Mountain Rage. It's kludgy, but in the end you'd grow one size whenever you're raging.

[dehro]

mmmh, no.. I'll stay away from that. I doubt our point buy system for non-core stuff would allow for it anyway.

I think the most palatable and least controversial build would be paladin/sorcerer/abjurant champion, possibly half-ogre as per RoD.
Ideally the feel of the character would be that of a large/sturdy melee damage dealer who fuels his battle prowess with sorcery, leaving possibly a couple of slots open for debuffing, a blast or two and/or battlefield control.
now... I guess making it work would depend a lot on how I'd balance these out and what feat and spell selection I made, but with 22 levels to play with, it has to be possible.

[GrayDeath]

You could also try a Warlock as your "Spells and Stuff" Side.

Less full Caster, more Melee-mageable (especially with Eldritch Glaive).

Just my 2 cents.

[Jack_McSnatch]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Duskblade/barbarian/rage mage. Now you're a frontline fighter with rage supplemented by arcane spellcasting, and you've got almost full bab. I think rage mage drops you one or two points, but you have more than enough to make up for it.

[dehro]

You could also try a Warlock as your "Spells and Stuff" Side.

Less full Caster, more Melee-mageable (especially with Eldritch Glaive).

Just my 2 cents.
we have a warlock in the party already... and the glaive is not really the path I'm looking for.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Duskblade/barbarian/rage mage. Now you're a frontline fighter with rage supplemented by arcane spellcasting, and you've got almost full bab. I think rage mage drops you one or two points, but you have more than enough to make up for it.

I'm not too keen on the barbarian/raging path..
duskblade however seems to go in the right direction..flavour-wise at least.

[Jack_McSnatch]

I'm not too keen on the barbarian/raging path..
duskblade however seems to go in the right direction..flavour-wise at least.

Well, I figured Ogre Mage. Maybe it's just me, but they sound like the types to do magic frenzy. You don't seem too keen about duskblade, so what spells are you looking at, exactly? If you really just want 9th level spells, why not just go stalwart battle sorceror?

[dehro]

Well, I figured Ogre Mage. Maybe it's just me, but they sound like the types to do magic frenzy. You don't seem too keen about duskblade, so what spells are you looking at, exactly? If you really just want 9th level spells, why not just go stalwart battle sorceror?
9th level spells aren't a must.. mostly I want to be able to buff myself to stupid levels of smashing melee power (and tanking prowess), and possibly do the same for the paladin of the group who already packs an impressive punch when he's not rolling ones.
Stuff like a means to fly consistently and to see what I should be smashing rather than be oblivious to it would also be nice (there's little point in magicing myself into a trouncing brute if I then can't see or reach my targets.)
Any offensive/healing/debuffing/battlefield control spells on top of that would be gravy but aren't a real necessity, since we have a bard and a warlock who can provide in that department.
Think Fezzik from the princess bride, except magically enhanced.
The ogre mage concept intrigues me because some of the above come as natural abilities to him, but the 7 LA costs a bit too much, considering how our DM doesn't believe in level buyoff.
That said this is somewhere in between a thought experiment and the preparation of a new character to play, so I'm not super invested in the outcome (but I might be should my main character die), and I'm also not to certain on what I want to accomplish, build-wise. I'm chasing a mix between flavour and practicality/survivability.
I realise this isn't very helpful at all:smallfrown:
Duskblade and swiftblade sound pretty good actually, if I can make it work with the brute-ish concept

[Grod_The_Giant]

Duskblade is sort of what you want... sort of. It's not so great at the "buff yourself up and hit things really hard," though; it's more of a "stab you and cast a spell through my sword" thing. Something like Duskblade 13/Ur Priest 10 would be a fantastic 23rd level Gish build, though. The Duskblade gives you channeling and blasty spells, while the Ur-Priest loads you up with Cleric spells for buffing and channeling. (Despite the name, Arcane Channeling works with any spell you know). Duskblade 3/Cleric 20 works too, though that doesn't get you full attack channeling. Or really, Duskblade + anything that puts more spells on your character.

[Dagroth]

Clerics are better at group buffing than Wizards... so the Ruby Knight Vindicator route might work better.

There are Cleric buffs for Haste & Flight, so you're not losing out there.

[Karl Aegis]

So you want to be the Red Oni in the Red Oni, Blue Oni pair using the Blue Oni as the base race. Ogre Mage is quite literally the Blue Oni of Japanese Legend. But, you want to be both the Red Oni and the Blue Oni for some reason or another. But, you don't like the dude in orange robes who ends up saving the world from some heinous villain (I think he murdered some college kids). And you like the spell-like abilities, but not these other things that are, quite literally, spell-like abilities under transparency rules. You prefer digging through fecal matter, sharp bits of wire, live arachnids, insect parts and diamond dust to get to the tarts at the bottom of your component pouch while doing a dance, waving your arms and shouting nonsense(that's a Japanese thing, by the way). While fighting things that had their humanity taken from them in an unwilling exchange for more power (that's a Japanese thing, too).

I think what you really need right now is a Gundam just to complete the whole thing.

[dehro]

that sounds about right :smallbiggrin:

[Gildedragon]

... You prefer digging through fecal matter, sharp bits of wire, live arachnids, insect parts and diamond dust to get to the tarts at the bottom of your component pouch while doing a dance, waving your arms and shouting nonsense
You make wizard school sound like a Japanese game show

[Dagroth]

You make wizard school sound like a Japanese game show

Don't Get Eliminated! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puhtuCsPz94)