How powerful are monsters from the ELH?

[danielxcutter]

Yes, the simple answer is "very", but that's not too helpful.

Why I'm asking is that in a campaign log I'm reading, Tales of Wyre, Grazz't got jumped by two Glooms(sent in by an epic-level spellcaster) and while he most certainly won, he still took a beating initially, although that was more because of the surprise round they got. It's also mentioned that his DR(20/Good and Cold Iron and Epic) helped a lot.

That made me think about how powerful the other guys are, not just the Glooms. Some are weak compared to their CR, and some are powerful even for epic encounters. The biggest example of wimps(compared to their CR) are the Hecatoncheires, which, if what I hear is correct, are used to test the power of a ECL 20 gish - if the Gish solos it, it's okay. However, I doubt that they're a pushover against anything else.

So?

[Buufreak]

Yes, the simple answer is "very", but that's not too helpful.

Why I'm asking is that in a campaign log I'm reading, Tales of Wyre, Grazz't got jumped by two Glooms(sent in by an epic-level spellcaster) and while he most certainly won, he still took a beating initially, although that was more because of the surprise round they got. It's also mentioned that his DR(20/Good and Cold Iron and Epic) helped a lot.

That made me think about how powerful the other guys are, not just the Glooms. Some are weak compared to their CR, and some are powerful even for epic encounters. The biggest example of wimps(compared to their CR) are the Hecatoncheires, which, if what I hear is correct, are used to test the power of a ECL 20 gish - if the Gish solos it, it's okay. However, I doubt that they're a pushover against anything else.

So?

Nah, the simple answer is another question: Are you using epic spellcasting? Because that changes things from "ridiculous bags of hitpoints" to "jokes that we not only laugh at, but also point."

[Eldariel]

Casting ones are strong. Phane, epic dragons, etc. However, epic rules are vorked in the extreme as are high level spells. The game is less about numbers and more about strategy, immunities, magic negation and such.

[danielxcutter]

Nah, the simple answer is another question: Are you using epic spellcasting? Because that changes things from "ridiculous bags of hitpoints" to "jokes that we not only laugh at, but also point."

Uh, how many DMs allow free reign on Epic Spellcasting? I'm guessing, not many(if at all).

So, no, not for this thread.


Casting ones are strong. Phane, epic dragons, etc. However, epic rules are vorked in the extreme as are high level spells. The game is less about numbers and more about strategy, immunities, magic negation and such.

Point taken. Having literally thousands of hit points doesn't help when they can be burned away faster than a haystack faced with a pyromaniacal kender, and are even less useful when you fail a save against a SoD.

[ATHATH]

I thought that Tales of Wyre took place in either 1e or 2e (I can't remember which), NOT 3.5e...

[Inevitability]

I thought that Tales of Wyre took place in either 1e or 2e (I can't remember which), NOT 3.5e...

You're both wrong and right: it's 3.0.

[Fizban]

I feel like the Hecatoncheires was CR'd based on the ridiculous 100 attacks, and then someone limited the attacks based on size without reducing the CR, making it massively over CR'd because they're an idiot. Jumping around, the rest seem to have high enough numbers to match reasonable 20th+ numbers, except for a crushing deficit of hit points on many of them. It wasn't until later 3.5 when they really started pouring on the hp to combat the ever increasing full attack op. For comparison look at the guys in Elder Evils: even the weakest (CR16-18) seem to be on-par with the low-epic stuff in ELH.

[danielxcutter]

I feel like the Hecatoncheires was CR'd based on the ridiculous 100 attacks, and then someone limited the attacks based on size without reducing the CR, making it massively over CR'd because they're an idiot. Jumping around, the rest seem to have high enough numbers to match reasonable 20th+ numbers, except for a crushing deficit of hit points on many of them. It wasn't until later 3.5 when they really started pouring on the hp to combat the ever increasing full attack op. For comparison look at the guys in Elder Evils: even the weakest (CR16-18) seem to be on-par with the low-epic stuff in ELH.

To be fair, the source I read about them being used as standard solo material for gish builds also said that this was for a non-modified vanilla Hec. To indirectly quote, "it would make sense if they had 100 epic adamantine weapons".

To directly quote(and translated to the best of my ability):


...a proper DM will search every supplement to totally rehaul their feats and give them class levels and proper magic items, and prepare a proper battlefield instead of a bare plain.15

[15]If you see Magic Item Compendium, Complete Warrior and Tome of Battle beside the DM who brought up a Heca at the same time, ponder how you contracted the ire of the DM and have a serious talk.

[Bronk]

To be fair, the source I read about them being used as standard solo material for gish builds also said that this was for a non-modified vanilla Hec. To indirectly quote, "it would make sense if they had 100 epic adamantine weapons".

To directly quote(and translated to the best of my ability):

A lot of those monsters may have seemed tough when they first came out, but didn't fare well as new spells and equipment came out. Once the 'stormrage' spell, or the 'starmantle cloak' came out? You could walk (or float) right up to a hecatoncheires without much danger at all.

It's also pretty funny that it calls out that it's natural weapons count as epic, evil, and chaotic when it doesn't have any.

[Inevitability]

It's also pretty funny that it calls out that it's natural weapons count as epic, evil, and chaotic when it doesn't have any.

Unarmed strike?

[Bronk]

Unarmed strike?

I think they'd need a level of monk or ar least a monk's belt to count their unarmed attacks as a natural weapon though.

[danielxcutter]

Unarmed strike?

Indeed, the article I read said that they'd be better off using "epic slaps" than their mundane weapons, especially against monsters with DR/Epic. Of course, Improved Unarmed Strike is needed, but just how hard is that?

[Gusmo]

Proteans have some potential. They've basically got a better version of shapechange at will.

[emeraldstreak]

Uh, how many DMs allow free reign on Epic Spellcasting? I'm guessing, not many(if at all).

I remember reading the FRCS' ad hoc epic spellcasting rules and thinking "that's not so bad" and then being so underwhelmed with the ELH.

[martixy]

Hm... I've not yet played any epic.

Can someone give some practical examples of epic magic that completely trivializes these monsters(one that's actually a challenge, not the hecaton)?

[eggynack]

Depends on the monster. A good number of them suffer from the tarrasque problem, not in that they have potent but secret vulnerabilities, but in that you can kill them by just kinda being a bit away from them and shooting them to death. A devastation beetle is CR 50, and its long range option is an acid cloud that goes out 60 feet. Stay out of range of that, and have a sufficient damage bonus to bypass DR 20/-, and you can take it out trivially. I don't know precisely what archery damage bonuses look like, but I wouldn't be surprised by a character taking this creature out at level ten. With zero risk. It's not even an especially powerful plan. All the crazy vermin are kinda like that, and I don't think they're alone. Behemoth gorilla doesn't even need a damage bonus, cause it lacks DR. You could literally send a third level wizard after this creature, to peck away at it for a couple hours a day using alter self for a flight form, and the wizard would win.

Stone colossus seems doable as well. Maybe iron too, if you can do the damage through an AMF. Primal earth and air elementals, maybe water too, the epic golems, the two legendary animals are technically listed there for some reason, prismasaurus, tayellah, torciasid, elder treant (its SLAs seem kinda crap at stopping a flying archer), and maybe winterwight (its stuff might be able to stop standard archery, but won't necessarily manage). That's a ton of creatures, most of whom have CR reflective of their presence in the ELH, which basically any archer with a flight item can kill trivially. Make the flight speedy in nature, and you add a few of the decent flying creatures onto that list, and make the creature capable of doing good damage without the need for breaks and you can kill some of the fast healing and regen creatures too.

So, in conclusion, while some of the ELH monsters are quite strong, a good percentage, enough that it can't really be considered cherry picking, are really really really weak. They're just a bundle of HP and tough weapons with limited capacity to actually apply those statistics to a prepared party. These aren't even good defenses or a good offense. I'm literally just talking about being kinda far away and shooting these creatures with arrows. Handing the creatures a sling or maybe a bow would be enough to crush the plan, but they do not have a sling. Actually optimize to face these monsters, building up a defense particularly designed to deal with their capabilities, using an offense that pierces all their immunities and bypasses their HP by way of doing something besides damage, and I'd expect a majority to be workable before you get 9th's. Some would still be a challenge, of course, but it's weird how many are weak.

[Bronk]

Hm... I've not yet played any epic.

Can someone give some practical examples of epic magic that completely trivializes these monsters(one that's actually a challenge, not the hecaton)?

Even just creating a very simple epic spell by adding two seeds together can be powerful, because you base the spell's characteristics (saves, SR yes or no, range, duration, etc.) based on the 'base seed', then you can stick on another seed for the actual desired effect.

This means that for offensive spells, you can pick a seed with no save and no SR for a base, like contact, then tack on whatever other seed as a rider.

For helpful spells, which normally have a duration, you can pick the 'heal' or 'forsee' seed with a duration of 'instantaneous', then tack on whatever the other effect is.

Finally, there's the 'mythal' seed, to which you can tack on whatever regular spell you want.

If you keep it simple, the Spellcraft DCs stay relatively low. If you add too many extra bits to your spell, the Spellcraft DCs can get comparatively higher, but since quite a bit of the higher modifiers come from altering the range, target, etc. of the spells, and you bypass most of that by picking different base seeds, it's usually easy to knock the DC back down.

Here's a simple one.

Start with the 'contact' seed as base, which allows no saving throw and no spell resistance. The seed specifies two usages, and the first is to form a telepathic bond between people you know or are familiar with. However, it has a second usage that allows you to cast it on any creature or object. Normally, this is so that the creature can be your messenger, but not this time. Spellcraft DC +20.

Next, add the 'transport' seed, specifying that you're sending the target to somewhere dangerous... The positive energy plane? That's a spellcraft DC of +27, +4 for interplanar travel, and +4 for an unwilling subject. The seed normally specifies will saves, but not anymore, since it isn't the base seed.

Done! I'll call it 'Bursting With Life', because it sends whoever I'm looking at to an airless void where they gain temporary hit points, and they'll have to make a save every round of the spells 200 minute duration or explode and die. This would work pretty well against anything that can't use planar travel spells to get back, or needs breathable air to cast them with. It has a Spellcraft DC of 55 to cast, with no saving throw and no spell resistance, and with no specified range. Any epic spellcaster could easily cast this spell by maxing out spellcraft and having a non-epic +30 skill item.

Also note that you could simply cast the 'contact' seed by itself, DC 20, to send anything away for a while, presumably towards someone you don't like.

That's the simplest way of making epic spells. Beyond that, can make your own spells and basically do whatever you want by throwing in 'ad hoc' adjustments to the DC.

(All of this is why you hear of DMs either not allowing, or being very strict with, epic spells in their games.)

[Flickerdart]

Even just creating a very simple epic spell by adding two seeds together can be powerful, because you base the spell's characteristics (saves, SR yes or no, range, duration, etc.) based on the 'base seed', then you can stick on another seed for the actual desired effect.

This means that for offensive spells, you can pick a seed with no save and no SR for a base, like contact, then tack on whatever other seed as a rider.

For helpful spells, which normally have a duration, you can pick the 'heal' or 'forsee' seed with a duration of 'instantaneous', then tack on whatever the other effect is.

Finally, there's the 'mythal' seed, to which you can tack on whatever regular spell you want.

If you keep it simple, the Spellcraft DCs stay relatively low. If you add too many extra bits to your spell, the Spellcraft DCs can get comparatively higher, but since quite a bit of the higher modifiers come from altering the range, target, etc. of the spells, and you bypass most of that by picking different base seeds, it's usually easy to knock the DC back down.

Here's a simple one.

Start with the 'contact' seed as base, which allows no saving throw and no spell resistance. The seed specifies two usages, and the first is to form a telepathic bond between people you know or are familiar with. However, it has a second usage that allows you to cast it on any creature or object. Normally, this is so that the creature can be your messenger, but not this time. Spellcraft DC +20.

Next, add the 'transport' seed, specifying that you're sending the target to somewhere dangerous... The positive energy plane? That's a spellcraft DC of +27, +4 for interplanar travel, and +4 for an unwilling subject. The seed normally specifies will saves, but not anymore, since it isn't the base seed.

Done! I'll call it 'Bursting With Life', because it sends whoever I'm looking at to an airless void where they gain temporary hit points, and they'll have to make a save every round of the spells 200 minute duration or explode and die. This would work pretty well against anything that can't use planar travel spells to get back, or needs breathable air to cast them with. It has a Spellcraft DC of 55 to cast, with no saving throw and no spell resistance, and with no specified range. Any epic spellcaster could easily cast this spell by maxing out spellcraft and having a non-epic +30 skill item.

Also note that you could simply cast the 'contact' seed by itself, DC 20, to send anything away for a while, presumably towards someone you don't like.

That's the simplest way of making epic spells. Beyond that, can make your own spells and basically do whatever you want by throwing in 'ad hoc' adjustments to the DC.

(All of this is why you hear of DMs either not allowing, or being very strict with, epic spells in their games.)

And you can also use spell slot mitigation to cast a "target takes a billion damage, no save" spell with Spellcraft 0. Chain-gating Solars ahoy!

[Bronk]

And you can also use spell slot mitigation to cast a "target takes a billion damage, no save" spell with Spellcraft 0. Chain-gating Solars ahoy!

Truly, there are just so many possibilities for shenanigans!

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, what about the original example - that is, glooms? Anything that remotely gives an archdemon trouble isn't going to be exactly weak.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm, what about the original example - that is, glooms? Anything that remotely gives an archdemon trouble isn't going to be exactly weak.
It's pretty much just a high level Rogue with a few built-in magic items. I can't imagine it would be too hard to kill.

[martixy]

Hmm, what about the original example - that is, glooms? Anything that remotely gives an archdemon trouble isn't going to be exactly weak.

Well, in the SRD version I see nothing apart numbers that can keep up with a demon lord.

At that point in the game the problem I see more is how exactly said demon got into a position where these things were a threat.

[danielxcutter]

It's pretty much just a high level Rogue with a few built-in magic items. I can't imagine it would be too hard to kill.

Well, considering said Glooms got the jump(read: surprise round) on him and stabbed him no less than ten times, I'd say guess that this is the main reason the archdemon had trouble?

[danielxcutter]

Well, in the SRD version I see nothing apart numbers that can keep up with a demon lord.

At that point in the game the problem I see more is how exactly said demon got into a position where these things were a threat.

An epic-level spellcaster summoned them and presumably teleported them down into his realm. And maybe buffed them too, but that wasn't actually stated.

[noob]

I believe that if you base an epic spell on one seed with a duration of instantaneous it will not necessarily take that as a duration:
for example

GATHERING OF MAGGOTS
Conjuration (Healing)
Spellcraft DC: 49
Components: V, S, D F
Casting Time: 7 days
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 441,000 gp; 9 days; 17,640 XP. Seeds: life (DC 27), transform (DC 21). Factors: change creature type to aberration (+5 DC); add worm that walks’ spell-like, extraordinary, and supernatural abilities (+40 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC); increase casting time by 7 days (-14 DC).

When this spell is cast, worms or maggots slither and crawl their way inexorably toward the corpse touched. Over the course of the next week, they consume the flesh of the corpse, and when the last bit of the corpse is devoured, the creature is returned to a semblance of life as a worm that walks.
lasts permanently while the base seed is life(target is "Dead creature touched" and not "One creature or inanimate, nonmagical object" which is the target of the transform seed)
So basically the epic spell will take the worst duration so if you base an epic spell on an instantaneous seed and add a seed with a worse duration(like permanent) then it take the worse duration.
It is not written in the rules but since there is an example epic spell who is based on an instantaneous seed and which is not instantaneous and do not says it apply ad hoc modifiers we can conclude that using an instantaneous seed do not make the epic spell instantaneous automatically so you can not say "let us chose as a base seed an instantaneous seed and have all the effects we want as definitive undispellable stuff" because there is an unwritten rule preventing that.

[martixy]

And while technically it isn't explicitly stated for saves, I don't see a reasonable DM not ruling it to work in the same manner as the explicit stipulation for Spell resistance. I.e. if at least one seed has SR, the spell has SR.


An epic-level spellcaster summoned them and presumably teleported them down into his realm. And maybe buffed them too, but that wasn't actually stated.

I meant that I see the (potentially poor) narrative as allowing them to be a threat rather than any mechanical abilities of the creatures.

I imagine it as the kind of situation where if you find yourself in a battle not of your own volition, you've already lost the game.

Like, what self-respecting demon lord, much less Graz'zt, would allow himself to be surprise ambushed in his own realm?

There's either an epic backstory behind that, which would the more interesting part of the narrative, or some silliness has occurred.

The creatures themselves are merely thugs with high numbers.

[danielxcutter]

I meant that I see the (potentially poor) narrative as allowing them to be a threat rather than any mechanical abilities of the creatures.

I imagine it as the kind of situation where if you find yourself in a battle not of your own volition, you've already lost the game.

Like, what self-respecting demon lord, much less Graz'zt, would allow himself to be surprise ambushed in his own realm?

There's either an epic backstory behind that, which would the more interesting part of the narrative, or some silliness has occurred.

The creatures themselves are merely thugs with high numbers.

Admittingly, the spellcaster who sent them *did* know that they wouldn't kill him.

[martixy]

Admittingly, the spellcaster who sent them *did* know that they wouldn't kill him.

Which comes of as a threat/challenge/insult.

At which point that spellcaster better be on the level, because you can be damn well sure Grazzy is not gonna tolerate such a overt challenge to his authority. He's gonna be PISSED. And coming for you with all the resources a Demon Lord of the abyss has at his disposal.

I mean come on... if you pull that on him, you're either godlike or suicidal.

[Deadline]

Which comes of as a threat/challenge/insult.

That's basically what it was. The Tales of Wyre is a pretty solid campaign log of an Epic party and the things they get up to.

I believe it was the party wizard/alienist who sent the Glooms, and that Grazz't is one of the big bads of the campaign.


At which point that spellcaster better be on the level, because you can be damn well sure Grazzy is not gonna tolerate such a overt challenge to his authority. He's gonna be PISSED. And coming for you with all the resources a Demon Lord of the abyss has at his disposal.

I mean come on... if you pull that on him, you're either godlike or suicidal.

The party is very dangerous, and so are their friends (the paladin is the new face of his deity's religion, and has regular contact and dealings with divine creatures). Sure, they're not kick in the door to a demon lord's kingdom in the abyss powerful, but potent enough that Grazz't isn't going to risk himself on trying to take them out. It's almost more of a story about diplomacy between nations than it is your typical dungeon delving adventure.

[flappeercraft]

When comparing to average standards (Not average playground standards but like actual average standards) then they are pretty powerful, intimidating and threatening but when comparing to Practical optimization they are already pretty weak. When getting to theoretical optimization even if you bar infinite loops they are just like a half dead drunk high ant with no legs trying to fight a Great wyrm time dragon that has more template stacking than The Ultimate Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280524-Tarrasque-17-Templates-3-5e) (Yes, I know that is oddly specific)

[martixy]

Admittedly, I have not read the journal. Seems like it could be fun.

And about exactly what I would expect of a journal of an epic adventure. Dungeon delving is an adventurer's job, not a demigod's.

Besides, I didn't mean he's gonna get up right that instant and go fight them in personal combat, more like you've just acquired a personal nemesis you really wouldn't want to have.

But it does make me wonder how appropriate it is to look at epic-level creatures in isolation. Like, the power behind the glooms was the caster who delivered them. Kinda seems like a completely different ballgame at that point.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It is not written in the rules but since there is an example epic spell who is based on an instantaneous seed and which is not instantaneous and do not says it apply ad hoc modifiers we can conclude that using an instantaneous seed do not make the epic spell instantaneous automatically so you can not say "let us chose as a base seed an instantaneous seed and have all the effects we want as definitive undispellable stuff" because there is an unwritten rule preventing that.
Examples are not usually considered to be primary rules, just like tables are secondary to text. That is because there are a number (quite a few) cases where examples are outright wrong, especially when a lot of details are close together (read: monster statblocks). I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple epic spell examples that don't quite conform to the guidelines. It's not unthinkable that the authors eyeballed the spells for the draft and wrote the guidelines ad hoc, without going back to change the original spells.

[ATHATH]

Admittedly, I have not read the journal. Seems like it could be fun.
I highly recommend reading it. It has the quality (and length!) of an actual novel, and is one of the best campaign logs that I've ever read.

[danielxcutter]

I highly recommend reading it. It has the quality (and length!) of an actual novel, and is one of the best campaign logs that I've ever read.

Indeed. The Gloom summoning? That's before the halfway mark.

[Inevitability]

I'm seconding, thirding, and nding all suggestions to read Tales of Wyre. It's great.
Too bad it abruptly ends.

[danielxcutter]

I'm seconding, thirding, and nding all suggestions to read Tales of Wyre. It's great.
Too bad it abruptly ends.

Darn spoilers. :smallannoyed: It does?

[remetagross]

The author stopped posting. His last post harks back to September 2014. Ever since, the thread has been undiscontinuously bumped up at least once a week by hopeful fans :D

But before you reach that moment in the story, you still have an estimated 120 pages long book to sift through :D

[Deadline]

But before you reach that moment in the story, you still have an estimated 120 pages long book to sift through :D

And it's amazing. We mentioned that part, right? :smalltongue:

Also amazing, Shemeska's Planescape Story Hour.

[Psyren]

Uh, how many DMs allow free reign on Epic Spellcasting? I'm guessing, not many(if at all).

So, no, not for this thread.

I would wager not many less than allow Epic at all.

But even if you ban Epic Spellcasting itself, that doesn't make Epic casters any less ridiculous. Improved Spell Capacity, Multispell, Ignore Material Components, Enhance Spell, Familiar Spell., Improved Metamagic...

[atemu1234]

I would wager not many less than allow Epic at all.

But even if you ban Epic Spellcasting itself, that doesn't make Epic casters any less ridiculous. Improved Spell Capacity, Multispell, Ignore Material Components, Enhance Spell, Familiar Spell., Improved Metamagic...

True, but that still scales a bit better than 'you know the rules of the game? you can tear them apart, eat them and **** them out. have fun.'

[flappeercraft]

True, but that still scales a bit better than 'you know the rules of the game? you can tear them apart, eat them and **** them out. have fun.'

Can I sig this?

[Psyren]

True, but that still scales a bit better than 'you know the rules of the game? you can tear them apart, eat them and **** them out. have fun.'

Obviously Epic Spellcasting is stronger. My point though was that saying anything along the lines of "Epic monsters become a challenge for high-level casters as long as you ban Epic Spellcasting" is still not at all correct.

[danielxcutter]

Obviously Epic Spellcasting is stronger. My point though was that saying anything along the lines of "Epic monsters become a challenge for high-level casters as long as you ban Epic Spellcasting" is still not at all correct.

Well, it depends on the monster, but if we're talking about non-modified ones with no class levels, then yeah. However, there are likely a few that can be major hard-hitters with a minimum amount of effort, although most of those probably already have racial casting.

[atemu1234]

Can I sig this?

Be my guest.