PF Looking for something awful to try and optimize

[Azoth]

So, I apparently make characters that are too strong for my group. The latest one was a sword and board switch hitter fighter with no archetypes. So, I am turning to the forum for ideas of classes, archetypes, weapons, combat styles, ect... That are just so subpar that it would take a mountain of optimization to make them passable.

I am not looking to blow my legs off at the knee with ideas that invalidate themselves, like giving up the ability to ever have a familiar and then multiclassing Witch. I am just looking to hobble myself enough my character can fall in line with the rest of the group.

Allowed sources are any Paizo and DSP.

[Waker]

How about Rogue with some of the talents like Minor/Major Magic, feats like Eldritch Heritage and the like? Basically the idea is to make a Not-Mage, who's only real magic talents are a slim selection of SLAs and the rest is just Sleight of Hand or UMD.

[Florian]

So, I apparently make characters that are too strong for my group. The latest one was a sword and board switch hitter fighter with no archetypes. So, I am turning to the forum for ideas of classes, archetypes, weapons, combat styles, ect... That are just so subpar that it would take a mountain of optimization to make them passable.

I am not looking to blow my legs off at the knee with ideas that invalidate themselves, like giving up the ability to ever have a familiar and then multiclassing Witch. I am just looking to hobble myself enough my character can fall in line with the rest of the group.

Allowed sources are any Paizo and DSP.

Bad example. Sword´n´Board Fighters offer maybe the most reliable performance of all martial classes.

Try Slayer and Shadowdancer. Might be the weakest base class and PrC right now.

[Malroth]

Bard With a 4 lv Gunslinger Dip

[Ellrin]

I heard the Spheres of Power guys did an upsample of the Truenamer.

[CasualViking]

Wildsoul Vigilante, especially the spiderman package.

[TheIronGolem]

So, I apparently make characters that are too strong for my group. The latest one was a sword and board switch hitter fighter with no archetypes. So, I am turning to the forum for ideas of classes, archetypes, weapons, combat styles, ect... That are just so subpar that it would take a mountain of optimization to make them passable.

I am not looking to blow my legs off at the knee with ideas that invalidate themselves, like giving up the ability to ever have a familiar and then multiclassing Witch. I am just looking to hobble myself enough my character can fall in line with the rest of the group.

Allowed sources are any Paizo and DSP.

I'm trying to understand how anyone can find a vanilla Fighter to be overpowered but still be okay with DSP content.

[Azoth]

I'm trying to understand how anyone can find a vanilla Fighter to be overpowered but still be okay with DSP content.

Basically, I was leading the pack in numbers (To Hit, AC, saves), and had 8 skills/level. Because I was a switch hitter melee or ranged didn't matter to me, so I always had a way to contribute in combat. Outside of combat maxing Stealth, Bluff, Diplomacy, Linguistics, Disable Device, and keeping a few others passable (no one wants to drown in full plate) could interact with most skill challenges. By using wealth properly, I managed to snag relevant skill boosters so I wasn't a clanking tin can when trying to stealth or putting my foot in my mouth when talking to people.

So between high numbers (to them), and being able to interact with the entire game (even without magic) I was too strong. It was a "Is there anything your "Fighter" can't do?"

[Kurald Galain]

So, I apparently make characters that are too strong for my group. The latest one was a sword and board switch hitter fighter with no archetypes. So, I am turning to the forum for ideas of classes, archetypes, weapons, combat styles, ect... That are just so subpar that it would take a mountain of optimization to make them passable.
Go to any handbook (such as mine) and pick any of the archetypes rated red, that should be a good start. And in a group like this, I suggest playing a support/buff build to make everybody else look awesome.


Basically, I was leading the pack in numbers (To Hit, AC, saves), and had 8 skills/level.
...how? Did you get much higher rolled stats than the rest?

[Florian]

...how? Did you get much higher rolled stats than the rest?

It´s not that difficult between AMH/WMH and PoW/PoW:E.

But I agree with you. In a group with an apparent very low overall power level, I´d be more of a challenge to build a decent buffer and see how high you can push the others performance. Skald?

[Azoth]

Go to any handbook (such as mine) and pick any of the archetypes rated red, that should be a good start. And in a group like this, I suggest playing a support/buff build to make everybody else look awesome.


...how? Did you get much higher rolled stats than the rest?

I tried a buffer before, and they felt it was the buffs getting things done not them, same with a debuffer, and a third time with a BFC build.

As for my values being much higher, they went incredibly focused on one or two stats and dumped their non primary and secondary stats. This meant if they had a bad save, and it wasn't a focus stat it got dumped. I dumped Charisma but bought generally rounded out stats beyond that.

I also make sure to buy gear in the proper order. You know buy a cracked Green Prism Ioun Stone before upgrading a weapon from +2 to +3. Don't waste time on special weapon abilities until after it is a +5. Buy a Dusty Rose Prism before upgrading Armor from +3 to +4, or before upgrading a Ring of Prot/Necklace of Nat armor to +2. Buy a second Cracked Green Prism for saves before upgrading a Cloak of Resistance from +3 to +4.

Things like that add up, and the spare gold you have per level can be put to use getting things like skill booster, a Goz Mask, Unfettered Shirts, and more utility gear without sacrificing you efficiency at your job.

So if I have a +4 Scimitar, and someone else has a +1 Adaptable Cyclonic Composite Longbow, I am already +3 ahead in To Hit and damage. That doesn't account for Weapon Training or other items I have that boost my accuracy.

[Florian]

@Azoth:

This leads nowhere. When your fellow players have a basic grasp on PO and you´re into still acceptable TO, you´ll always end up with a clash and some bad feelings.

I´m getting the impression that you´re overall hogging too much spotlight. You don´t actually want the "weakest" class to optimize the living daylight out of and use that as a handy explanation, you might want the most focused build, excel and when you can use it and shut up outside your area of competency.

[stack]

I heard the Spheres of Power guys did an upsample of the Truenamer.

One of the authors of spheres of might (drop dead studios (DDS)) was previously working on a truenaming update with DSP (dreamscarred press), but that project is in limbo to my knowledge as the author and studio parted ways.

Spheres of power can be used to make a truenamer using the skilled casting drawback for linguistics, however.

As for the OP, maybe a cavalier without a mount? Or randomly pick an archetype for any mediocre class, many are terrible.

[Almarck]

I heard the Spheres of Power guys did an upsample of the Truenamer.


Incorrect. Interjection Games did it. Interjection Games is notable for creating lots and lots of unique subsystems and classes to go with.... most of which are under 10 USD

Their most notable pieces of 3rd party are a revised Invocation system that operates off of regeneration mana, a druidic chaos magic system where dice rolls at the begining of the day and the local terrain determine your access to magical plants and thus your spell load out, a system where you build and customize automatons to act as your small disposable army, and one really souped up magical music system.

As stated before, they remade Truenaming as seen here.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/144006
It's... beastly because they corrected the problem the old 3.5 Truenamer had with the massively scaling DC to use abilities.... since it's tied to the spell level... yiu basically have a load of spell uses for each recitation you know and most are pretty decent.






As to the OP. Go bard or scald, take options to maximize buffing and go for Masterpieces.


Since Dsp is allowed I also recommend Vitalist and Tactician.

[Fizban]

So, I apparently make characters that are too strong for my group. The latest one was a sword and board switch hitter fighter with no archetypes. So, I am turning to the forum for ideas of classes, archetypes, weapons, combat styles, ect... That are just so subpar that it would take a mountain of optimization to make them passable.
Same thing I said to the last guy: it doesn't matter what you played, what are they playing?

Followed by, how good are they at playing it? No insult intended, but the ability to fail will always be greater. The first thing a skilled player does is make sure no round is wasted, but some players waste a lot of rounds, and almost anything you can do will beat nothing, and I think that's a huge part of a lot of these problems. If the reason you were OP is because you simply played better and not because they played the same but with lower numbers, then you're gonna have to intentionally un-optimize your numbers enough to make up for it. And when I say numbers that's dps, spell KOs or debuff magnitudes, social maneuvers, whatever you want to convert it to.

So say, if you never waste a round but your fellow players find themselves unable to contribute even just 1 round for every 3 they do (1/4 failure), then you need to drop your own output 25% below their own numbers to compensate. If optimizing something weak lets you meet their output, you'd still be overpowered. If my guess on skill level and wasted turns is correct.

[Azoth]

@Azoth:

This leads nowhere. When your fellow players have a basic grasp on PO and you´re into still acceptable TO, you´ll always end up with a clash and some bad feelings.

I´m getting the impression that you´re overall hogging too much spotlight. You don´t actually want the "weakest" class to optimize the living daylight out of and use that as a handy explanation, you might want the most focused build, excel and when you can use it and shut up outside your area of competency.

You know Florian, I think you hit the nail on the head...more or less.

I can honestly say, that it has not been my intention when building the characters that I have to end up being a spot light hog. I can, however; see how that could very well be the problem that is occurring. I guess, I kind of forgot that making your character useful in most situations even if they aren't his specialty (and he isn't the best in it in the group) is a form of optimization in and of itself.

I guess, aiming for a hyperfocused build, and at the same time not going for the tried and true "best returns at each level for WBL" gear selection scheme might be the best solution.

I do still feel that using a weaker class or chassis overall is still a good idea. That or picking a weaker trick to focus on. With that in mind, do you have any suggestions?

[EldritchWeaver]

@Azoth:

This leads nowhere. When your fellow players have a basic grasp on PO and you´re into still acceptable TO, you´ll always end up with a clash and some bad feelings.

I´m getting the impression that you´re overall hogging too much spotlight. You don´t actually want the "weakest" class to optimize the living daylight out of and use that as a handy explanation, you might want the most focused build, excel and when you can use it and shut up outside your area of competency.

As I have a similar experience with my group (although I'm probably less optimizing than you), I can expand on this. Offer other players help in optimizing their characters, especially if you can do it without compromising their original character vision (be sure to ask, what their vision is, before offering a particular solution). Try to find a niche no one else occupies as your primary niche. Secondary niches are nice to have to remain useful beyond one type of situation, but don't try to optimize beyond what other players have.

Effectively, be a decent backup and let others their chance to shine first. If they can't contribute (because they didn't think of a certain idea or their character isn't with yours), then feel free to use your capabilities. And last, but not least, talk about with the other players about their expectations of the game and what their characters are supposed to do. IMO, completely exclusive niches are bad, to some extent characters should overlap to compensate if the "I have dips on this"-character is out of commission and to lessen feelings that you invalidate other characters (which can happen if that invalidated character is a one-trick-pony).

[Thunder999]

If you're looking for something rather sub par to optimize then I suggest trying to two weapon fight with both a gun and a melee weapon, you need to eliminate AoOs from making ranged attacks while threatened, take the full ranged and TWF feat trees, get reloading down to a free action, and get around the fact it takes two hands to reload. It's just about the worst combat style you can go for in pathfinder. Try to do it with one of the terrible archetypes themed around it, like the Picaroon (swashbuckler archetype).

[noob]

Attempt to make a commoner who fights by using aoe heals that heals only opponents.

[Azoth]

If you're looking for something rather sub par to optimize then I suggest trying to two weapon fight with both a gun and a melee weapon, you need to eliminate AoOs from making ranged attacks while threatened, take the full ranged and TWF feat trees, get reloading down to a free action, and get around the fact it takes two hands to reload. It's just about the worst combat style you can go for in pathfinder. Try to do it with one of the terrible archetypes themed around it, like the Picaroon (swashbuckler archetype).

My first thought on this idea would be a Privateer Warlord working up to Point Blank Mastery. There is a stance from Solar Wind that lets you generate phantom ammo...or be a Tiefling with Prehensile Tail or a dip in Juggler Bard. You just need a way to fire a shot on a charge to really abuse Opening Volley to make your melee attacks land easily (who doesn't love a +4 to hit). *Edit: No need to charge, just use one of the boosts from Riven Hourglass to shoot as a Swift action, and then full attack.* It also isn't that feat strapped due to Training only being a +1 enchantment. If your DM rules you can benefit from it multiple times gaining a different feat each time it frees some things up.

Trying it with another class, would be harder no doubt. I may have to look into this. My only other immediate thought was to build a healer type character. Something like UnMonk1/Vitalist1/MedicX.

[Particle_Man]

What about a bard or other "make other PCs better" build?

[Florian]

With that in mind, do you have any suggestions?

I don´t know you nor do I know your gaming group.

Having said that and based upon what I read from you so far, I´d say that you should actually try a low T1/high T2 class. You want to bring power to bear when necessary, else you´re not going to have a good gaming experience, but full casters can also operate on a low output just fine without being bland.

I´d say Oracle or Witch. You can go full power when needed or simmer now-level when not.

[Malroth]

How about a Stealth Druid who spends all day as a tiny bird well outside of combat and you just get a big cat animal companion to follow the party and eat whoever attacks them and otherwise just does his own thing.

[unseenmage]

That clockwork constructs cost +150% is baked into their subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types/#TOC-Clockwork-Subtype). I always thought that was pretty awful.

[Fouredged Sword]

Honestly I recommend not playing a weak class. Rather I suggest playing something where success means everyone else has more power so no mater how well you play you will automatically equalize the party to be playing at your mechanical power level.

So play a Guardian Method Vitalist. Do your best to never interact with hostile enemies.

[Barstro]

I tried a buffer before, and they felt it was the buffs getting things done not them, same with a debuffer, and a third time with a BFC build.
You have players who actually understand that? Impressed.


So if I have a +4 Scimitar, and someone else has a +1 Adaptable Cyclonic Composite Longbow, I am already +3 ahead in To Hit and damage. That doesn't account for Weapon Training or other items I have that boost my accuracy.
Get a Greater Magic Weapon spell going. Then the others have a +4 of Cyclonic while you just have a +4. If you want to make this particular PC feel good, slyly convince the DM to put the party in situations where Cyclonic is actually useful. Sure, it's a sort of railroading, but I don's see much harm in this one.

Personally, I think your example is a case of a player who spent too much on a situational enhancement and is annoyed about it. If I had someone buffing my PC as much as you think yours does, I'd be building around that to be a powerhouse. Actually, I wouldn't; I prefer to be the buffer and will gladly nerf a character so as to not outshine. But that's just me, I'm not critiquing you.


. Offer other players help in optimizing their characters, especially if you can do it without compromising their original character vision (be sure to ask, what their vision is, before offering a particular solution).
Difficult to do without it becoming "your" character. But certainly a decent option.

[Barstro]

Other thoughts (that may have already been addressed);

If direct buffing is seen as you still doing all the work, how about something a bit different? You could be someone who helps the team by constantly getting into flanking positions. You could specialize in moving opponents around the battlefield. Mainly, I'm trying to stay away from you doing damage or selfishly buffing other players.

How about an Oradin? That seems useful without actually doing anything.

[icefractal]

Yeah, I would say you want to be specialized, rather than necessarily weaker. Stealth and Face skills are the most spotlight-heavy, so stay away from those - or specialize in one of them and not in combat.

Do you tend to run into a lot of solo-BBEG types in your game? If not, then grappling can be a good combat tactic - defeats the crap out of one enemy, but ties you up not dealing with other foes at all for at least a round or two. Pwning the BBEG with it might make people jealous though.

Alternately, if the group doesn't like buffing or debuffing, maybe try being less of a team player. Be a Wizard (or other squishy caster), be paranoid, put your own defense as priority #1. Cast something to defeat the enemies? Sure, once you have Mirror Image up, and maybe another self-buff or two. That should give other people more time to shine. The nice thing about this approach is you can adjust it to be more helpful if needed.

[Zanos]

I'm still curious about the 8 skills per level fighter with no archetype. That's 20 intelligence, even on a human.

[Florian]

I'm still curious about the 8 skills per level fighter with no archetype. That's 20 intelligence, even on a human.

Can be done with Versatile Training. Gives you two class skills per weapon group and substitutes your BAB for the skill ranks. So Human Fighter 10 with int 12 could get 4 regular, 4 substitution.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm still curious about the 8 skills per level fighter with no archetype. That's 20 intelligence, even on a human.

Not with Advanced Weapon Training.

[Ellrin]

I'm still curious about the 8 skills per level fighter with no archetype. That's 20 intelligence, even on a human.

AFB and never looked too deep into fighter archetypes to begin with, but aren't there archetypes that grant fighters 4+Int? If he's human and sinking FCB into skill points, he only needs a 14. If he somehow got Finding Haleen to fly at table, that brings it down to 12, and that's before going into any weapon training stuff.

[Azoth]

2 from class +2 Int +2 Versatile Training +1 Human +1FCB=8

Overall, I had the build as an all rounder typical Jack of All Trades Master of None type.

I am strongly considering a healing focused build to replace him. I can't think of any tricks I can pull that could make a walking bandaid over powered. Obviously, drop Int or focus on useless skills aside Perception and Sense Motive. Maybe blow feats on Crafting as well.

[Sayt]

It's actually possible to get 11 ranks/level on an int 10 fighter (http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2017/02/iconic-design-the-skillful-fighter/)

[Captain Morgan]

2 from class +2 Int +2 Versatile Training +1 Human +1FCB=8

Overall, I had the build as an all rounder typical Jack of All Trades Master of None type.

I am strongly considering a healing focused build to replace him. I can't think of any tricks I can pull that could make a walking bandaid over powered. Obviously, drop Int or focus on useless skills aside Perception and Sense Motive. Maybe blow feats on Crafting as well.

Not a terrible idea I suppose. Playing a pacifist Oracle of Life would mean your party could handle substantially more punishment. Although as a charisma focused class it will still be possible to hog the spotlight in social situations.

I dunno how they would feel about you crafting their gear, either. I know I'd be greatful for someone making me better weapons and armor for cheaper, but I'd also enjoy someone casting haste on me. :p

Magical Vestment and Greater Magic Weapons seem like a good idea too if they will swallow their pride and take some buffs.

[Azoth]

I have just never seen a group, so against being buffed to the nine's. Every other group I have played with loved it. Whether it was just a tricked out Inspire Courage, or full blown Magic Jar possession extended/permanencied buffs...depending on optimization level of the group.

[Ellrin]

I have just never seen a group, so against being buffed to the nine's. Every other group I have played with loved it. Whether it was just a tricked out Inspire Courage, or full blown Magic Jar possession extended/permanencied buffs...depending on optimization level of the group.

I mean if they're really unhappy with anything remotely optimized, you could always just play a commoner without putting any ranks into Handle Animals.

[Barstro]

I have just never seen a group, so against being buffed to the nine's. Every other group I have played with loved it. Whether it was just a tricked out Inspire Courage, or full blown Magic Jar possession extended/permanencied buffs...depending on optimization level of the group.

I've been upset to receive buffs in the past. But that involved a character that was, by far, the greatest damage dealer of the party receiving what amounted to an extra turn in a round. I worried that others felt left out. In general, however, I join you in being perplexed.

[Wartex1]

Any kineticist. :smalltongue:

[Albertus Magus]

I suggest a Phantom Thief (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/phantom-thief-rogue-archetype/) rogue - A rogue without sneak attack with a high skill focus; he can get some minor SLAs and dex to dmg at 3rd lvl, but is mostly stuck then.

He may be useful out of combat thanks to plentyful skills; but in combat - and lots of PF is combat - he will need help.


Play a halfling with Helpful as racial trait, take Combat Reflexes and at 2nd lvl - via Combat Trick - Bodyguard; then take Well-Prepared (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/well-prepared/) at 3rd and Brilliant Planner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/brilliant-planner/) at 5th.

--------------

Kineticists may be dealing with cries of "overpowered" when they deal lots of single-target damage at level 5...and their "all-day-long" nature may be similarly regarded as "overpowered" akin to some reactions to 3.5 warlocks.

Despite both classes being far from "overpowered".

[Florian]

Kineticist is not that bad since we got Kinetic Knight. Wouldn't´t make fun around that one archetype, might even be a worse suggestion that the plain vanilla we already talk about.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It sounds like the issue is that, rightly or wrongly, you're being seen as hogging the spotlight. The solution would be to pick one part of the game (a part that other people aren't aimed at) and focus on that. What is everyone else playing?

[Kurald Galain]

Kineticists may be dealing with cries of "overpowered" when they deal lots of single-target damage at level 5...
The problem is that level five is literally the only moment when the kinny can compete with other classes, to some extent, because before level 5 it lacks its empower feature, and after level 5 other classes get iterative attacks. They're underpowered at every other level.

I don't see that kin knight help any, either. If you're truly looking for something awful and unoptimizable, kinny is a decent pick for that. But yeah, as people have pointed out this is really more about group dynamics.

[EvulOne]

Play a Marshal that works alongside the melee types who uses a Ranseur to disarm opponents. He could be a flanker to their attacks.

If you still find yourself way over optimized versus your fellow players....just stop optimizing so much. It's not hard.

[Epic Legand]

I agree with some of the others. You to well rounded for your team. Please give us the level your working on, and your group breakdown, plus any relevant house rules. At 5th LV, a wizard is not overpowering, while at 12th....

I feel you need to own a nich, and own it well, but not crush the other players toes...You need to make a build where you can push yourself all you want, and not overshadow everyone else. I have faced this issue many times.