Bard Level 4 Thunderwave vs Shatter

[MarkVIIIMarc]

My character is a Lore Bard and I'm concerned I have two overlapping spells, Thunderwave and Shatter.

Thunderwave has the advantage of backing opponents off.

Shatter is ranged.

They do similar damage when used at level 2 but Thunderwave can be used as level 1.

Which do you all prefer and why?



Thunderwave
Casting Time: 1 Action

Range: Self (15-foot cube)

Components: V, S

Duration: Instantaneous

A wave of thunderous force sweeps out from you. Each creature in a 15-foot cube originating from you must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 2d8 thunder damage and is pushed 10 feet away from you. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage and isn't pushed.

In addition, unsecured objects that are completely within the area of effect are automatically pushed 10 feet away from you by the spell's effect, and the spell emits a thunderous boom audible out to 300 feet.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by a 1d8 for each slot level above first.

Shatter:
2nd-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 60 feet

Components: V, S, M (a chip of mica)

Duration: Instantaneous

A sudden loud ringing noise, painfully intense, erupts from a point of your choice within range. Each creature in a 10-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Constitution saving throw. A creature takes 3d8 thunder damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature made of inorganic material such as stone or metal has disadvantage on this saving throw.

A nonmagical object that isn’t being worn or carried also takes the damage if it’s in the spell's area.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 2nd.

[JAL_1138]

Shatter because it has a better range.

Pretty much. The damage is the same from level 2 slots and up, and Thunderwave can shove enemies back, but its range means the cube has to be adjacent to you. Shatter doesn't push, but has a range of 60ft, allowing you to target more-distant enemies, which can be much more useful in the long run.

[BW022]

That would be a choice you need to make.

Bards have remarkably few "get out of jail" abilities. However, it depends upon your character build, other spells, and party make-up for how likely you are to be caught in melee and/or how deadly it is for your character to end up in melee.

If your party has a good tank, off-tank, etc. and your positions, tactics, and adventuring style are such that you don't normally end up caught in melee... then go for shatter. It is a good spell against elementals, undead, and such due to the disadvantage on the save, level, and ability to destroy objects. If you do end up caught in melee a lot, sure thunderwave isn't bad. Its low-level so not slot heavy. However, thunderwave isn't a great "get out of jail" spell. Damage is secondary (highly unlikely to outright kill most creatures beyond CR 1) and the constitution save means lots of beasts, ogres, giants, undead, etc. likely won't be knocked back. Its fine around 1st-4th, but at 5th, you probably want another spell anyway. Fog cloud or invisibility are probably better towards higher levels.

Personally... unless you are built for an intentionally entering melee with some type of build which favours knockbacks (save polearm mastery or something)... I would consider shatter and ensuring that you have a better "get out of jail" spell -- typically invisibility or at least fog cloud.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

All very good points and thank you.

I want to clarify something I have done with Thunderwave.

Probably my most effective use of it was running up to an enemy who was in melee with our Monk and blasting him back 10 feet. Our DM figured that gave our Monk an attack of opportunity which caused even more damage.

Is that legal?

If so it gives the attack a chance to cause more damage and freed a partner up from Melee.

[djreynolds]

Yes the movement must be of their own will, not an explosion or a warlock hitting you with repelling blast. Same goes for booming blade and the subsequent damage, they must move on their own.

Remember thunderclap is similar to thunderwave and actually might be better since it is a cantrip, it doesn't push though. But you could use thunderclap and misty step in the same round I believe, AFB

[Yuroch Kern]

I use both. Thunder damage is good, and the riders for both spells are great. It's true that Shatter has the range with objects at disadvantaged saves, but Thunderwave has the knockback, which I'm sure has saved multiple players from mobs. They are about equal, and having both is almost having a spell that simply does one of two things. Thunderwave does get more potential uses too, being first level.

[Waazraath]

My tempest cleric has both, and used both. Even though he is build to be in melee, I still use shatter more often. The problem with melee is that it's often difficult to exclude allies from the blast. If I had to pick one (which a cleric fortunately doesn't :smallsmile:) I'd go for shatter.

[JellyPooga]

Neither spell is top-tier blasting and on that basis alone, I would advocate Thunderwave because of it's additional push effect and lower level; Bards have some great options on their level 2 list, including Hold Person, Invisibility, Suggestion and Silence, so Shatter really takes a back seat in my book, with Thunderwave filling a similar niche but with a less significant investment.

However, if you are looking for a blasting spell, then Shatter is the better option; the longer range and better AoE speak for themselves.

[Citan]

My character is a Lore Bard and I'm concerned I have two overlapping spells, Thunderwave and Shatter.

Thunderwave has the advantage of backing opponents off.

Shatter is ranged.

They do similar damage when used at level 2 but Thunderwave can be used as level 1.

Which do you all prefer and why?

Hi!
Personally I don't "prefer" either one, they just answer to different needs.

I really like Thunderwave on any Bard character that usually sticks close to the front line or likes to go solo (because let's not forget there is friendly-fire on both, it may sometimes be difficult to position correctly). Either a Valor Bard or some multiclass Bard, whoever cares. Because it means you get a damaging escape whenever you need it, and that is good.
For any Bard though, I may still pick it first and then swap it later because I feel I manage good enough without it.

Shatter is the one I usually pick for all other Bard characters because of the better range, sligtly better area, and versatility (damage, object breaking, diversion creating).

In short, I often have both for a bit of time then swap either one depending on many factors such as Magic Secrets choice (ex Fireball = exit Shatter, Misty Step or Blur = exit Thunderwave), usual tactic (keep at range + maybe Longstrider? No need for Thunderwave anymore) and survivability.
But at low levels, Thunderwave may be (maybe) more useful because any hit made to you is quite dangerous, so "mass disengaging" is good, as long as it succeeds though.

Some could argue that if you are really in deep sh**, instead of casting a spell which may fail, you'd better Dodge or Disengage and just run away.