Help Me Solve This Puzzle

[Mars Ultor]

I'm planning on giving my players the following puzzle, and I want to make sure it can be solved/isn't too easy before giving it to them. Note that each player will be given a simulated stone tablet made from hardened dough, and a printout with the clues.

You enter a chamber with a large metal door set into the cave wall. There are four keyholes spaced equally on the door, and a large crank-wheel on the right-side wall. On the left-hand wall is a mural of four heroes fighting a winged creature.

The mural depicts each warrior with his name written beneath him, but the part of the painting with the heroes’ shields are missing, there are instead depressions in the wall. Lined up on a shelf are eight pieces that can be inserted into the mural. The first four pieces are shields, the second four pieces are the coat-of-arms that were displayed on their shields.

Four warriors came together to defeat the Dragon of Aller. There was Arth, Eldred, Gudrun, and Rathgar. Each came armed with a shield of a particular size, and each warrior’s shield was painted with his coat-of-arms. They bravely fought the foul beast, finally defeating the creature and trapping it its lair. Then they sealed the entrance with a door of the strongest steel, each hero used their own key to lock the chamber, and each turned their key at the same time.

To keep the entrance locked, the warriors devised this puzzle. They left behind four stone puzzle tablets engraved with the clues listed below. To open each lock you must find the key, and the key is in the puzzle.


Gudren’s coat-of-arms is the Lion.
Arth carried a Heavy shield.
Eldred’s shield was just larger than Gudrun’s.
The person with the Heavy shield is either Rathgar or the warrior with the Dragon coat-of-arms.
Eldred’s shield was somewhat smaller than the warrior with the Unicorn coat-of-arms.

[Sian]

While it probably wouldn't be to hard to do if you get Paper, a pencil and ten minutes to fill out a logic grid, Its probably to difficult for D&D.

That Said





Arth
Eldred
Gudrun
Rathgar
|
Buckler
Light Shield
Heavy Shield
Tower Shield


Dragon CoA
Yes
No
No
No
|
No
No
Yes
No


Lion CoA
No
No
Yes
No
|
Yes
No
No
No


Unicorn CoA
No
No
No
Yes
|
No
No
No
Yes


Unknown CoA
No
Yes
No
No
|
No
Yes
No
No


-
-
-
-
-
+
-
-
-
-


Buckler
No
No
Yes
No
|
x
x
x
x


Light Shield
No
Yes
No
No
|
x
x
x
x


Heavy Shield
Yes
No
No
No
|
x
x
x
x


Tower Shield
No
No
No
Yes
|
x
x
x
x




Gudrun - Buckler - Lion CoA
Eldred - Light Shield
Arth, Heavy Shield, Dragon CoA
Rathgar - Tower Shield - Unicorn CoA

Note that nothing defines the Shield Weights (or types, picked the existing 4 types and went from there) relative to Heavy shield, hence no clue where on that scale that Arth fits, Note that nothing states what the forth CoA is

[Gildedragon]

Pen and pencil solved it quick
In ascending order of weight:
G with the Lion
E with the ???
R with the Unicorn
A with the Dragon

[Mars Ultor]

While it probably wouldn't be to hard to do if you get Paper, a pencil and ten minutes to fill out a logic grid, Its probably to difficult for D&D.

I'm not setting a time limit and there's no particular rush.


Note that nothing defines the Shield Weights (or types, picked the existing 4 types and went from there) relative to Heavy shield, hence no clue where on that scale that Arth fits, Note that nothing states what the forth CoA is[/Spoiler]

I'm going to provide pictures of the four shield types, tower, heavy, light, buckler, and the four animals. Griffon, dragon, lion, unicorn.

However, the puzzle grid you solved is completely unnecessary to opening the doors and accomplishes nothing.

[Mars Ultor]

Pen and pencil solved it quick
In ascending order of weight:
G with the Lion
E with the ???
R with the Unicorn
A with the Dragon


That's incorrect, but I think that's my fault because I didn't list the shields. Buckler, Light, Heavy, Tower. Also, the fourth animal is a griffon.

However, solving the riddle actually accomplishes nothing in regard to opening the door.

[Gildedragon]

That's incorrect, but I think that's my fault because I didn't list the shields. Buckler, Light, Heavy, Tower. Also, the fourth animal is a griffon.

However, solving the riddle actually accomplishes nothing in regard to opening the door.
Um... so why have the riddle at all then?




Gudren’s coat-of-arms is the Lion.
Arth carried a Heavy shield.
Eldred’s shield was just larger than Gudrun’s.
The person with the Heavy shield is either Rathgar or the warrior with the Dragon coat-of-arms.
Eldred’s shield was somewhat smaller than the warrior with the Unicorn coat-of-arms.


A must be heavy and the Dragon

E cannot be the buckler, heavy or tower (because G (and only G) is lighter) thus must be light. They cannot be the Unicorn, Dragon or Lion. Thus must be Griffon.

G must be the Lion cannot be light, heavy or tower (as they must be lighter than G), and thus must be the buckler

R must be the unicorn and because all the other sizes are taken: Tower

Note that "somewhat smaller" implies they are adjacent in sizes, implying the unicorn is the next bigger type of shield from E's

[Mars Ultor]

Um... so why have the riddle at all then?

Because it gives the players something entertaining to do, and it conceals the real way to get the keys. The answer is plainly stated but I think it's going to be misinterpreted, initially at least.




Note that "somewhat smaller" implies they are adjacent in sizes, implying the unicorn is the next bigger type of shield from E's

I guess the wording is misleading, "somewhat smaller" is too vague. How about "Eldred’s shield was smaller than the warrior with the Unicorn coat-of-arms"? If I eliminate "somewhat" completely, would you still infer that it was only one size smaller?

[Gildedragon]

Because it gives the players something entertaining to do, and it conceals the real way to get the keys. The answer is plainly stated but I think it's going to be misinterpreted, initially at least.


Tie the unlocking to the riddle. Reward them for that. And add a riddle free answer.




I guess the wording is misleading, "somewhat smaller" is too vague. How about "Eldred’s shield was smaller than the warrior with the Unicorn coat-of-arms"? If I eliminate "somewhat" completely, would you still infer that it was only one size smaller?

That would free the riddle from that misunderstanding

You needn't have everything be a creature.
Stuff like
The Tower is not a Tower
The Dragon Could Swallow the Sun
... etc

[John Longarrow]

3rd level crusader is the answer if you don't care about the pieces...

Any attack that overcomes hardness (most crusaders should have one at 3rd) will let them cut through the door... given time. :smallcool:

[ATHATH]

I break down the mural to see if there are keys behind/inside of it. Failing that, I just break down or teleport past (or use Gaseous Form to see the insides of/get past) the iron door. If the iron door is invulnerable to damage, I just dig into whatever material is next to it.

Why did the heroes make this test to "keep the entrance locked"? Shouldn't it only take a few minutes or so (for the forces of Good OR Evil (or Neutrality)) for intruders to solve the puzzle?

[illyahr]

Are the keys in the stone tablets? It sounds like the keys are in the stone tablets.

[Deophaun]

I'm planning on giving my players the following puzzle, and I want to make sure it can be solved/isn't too easy before giving it to them. Note that each player will be given a simulated stone tablet made from hardened dough, and a printout with the clues.

...

To keep the entrance locked, the warriors devised this puzzle. They left behind four stone puzzle tablets engraved with the clues listed below. To open each lock you must find the key, and the key is in the puzzle.
So, the question is, if your players break the dough tablets you gave them, will there be real keys inside?

Edit: And I'd probably make the puzzle logically impossible. Frustration is a good motivator for breaking things.

[Mars Ultor]

So, the question is, if your players break the dough tablets you gave them, will there be real keys inside?

Edit: And I'd probably make the puzzle logically impossible. Frustration is a good motivator for breaking things.

Yes, I'm putting real keys inside. They're ordinary keys I found in my house, I'm not sure what they're for, but they'll be real keys

I think the frustration part comes from solving the logic-puzzle and finding out nothing at all happens.

[Mars Ultor]

Are the keys in the stone tablets? It sounds like the keys are in the stone tablets.

Yes. Was it too obvious or did you rely on the other responses? Would you have gotten the answer if you were confronted with the puzzle?

[Mars Ultor]

Why did the heroes make this test to "keep the entrance locked"? Shouldn't it only take a few minutes or so (for the forces of Good OR Evil (or Neutrality)) for intruders to solve the puzzle?

"To open the doors, you must find the keys, and the keys are in the puzzle." The keys are literally inside the puzzle tablets.

If you're not wise, you shouldn't be messing with dragons. Actually the characters are low level and it's a wyvern, but same thing.

I've had a lot of recent adventures where it's just them hitting people and breaking things. I thought it would be interesting to have them face what seems to be a mental puzzle, but it turns out the answer is breaking something.

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly, I assumed the solution was to just turn the crank.

Anyway, the main problem is that the puzzle had just one solution, i suspect it'll take the better part of an hour for the players to figure out at, at least.

[Thunder999]

They'll probably resort to smashing the door before smashing the tablets.

[Gildedragon]

They'll probably resort to smashing the door before smashing the tablets.

+1

they'll try the puzzle. when it doesn't work they'll knock down the doors.

[John Longarrow]

Or they'll ignore the puzzle, do an open lock skill check, and when that fails break the door down...

[Sian]

I'm not setting a time limit and there's no particular rush.



I'm going to provide pictures of the four shield types, tower, heavy, light, buckler, and the four animals. Griffon, dragon, lion, unicorn.

However, the puzzle grid you solved is completely unnecessary to opening the doors and accomplishes nothing.

That helps nothing ... in fact that proves that it's a bad idea since it would probably only frustrate your players to the point where their characters would deliberately do stupid things to get the plot off the rail-tracks

[Fizban]

Sounds like a pretty standard misdirection. If they solve the "puzzle" and don't get it when you tell them nothing happens, throw an int or whatever check to have one of the characters catch it.

[Mars Ultor]

That helps nothing ... in fact that proves that it's a bad idea since it would probably only frustrate your players to the point where their characters would deliberately do stupid things to get the plot off the rail-tracks

"I don't like it" and "it's a bad idea" are not the same thing.

My players like puzzles, props, and unconventional approaches. If I thought they would become frustrated and act out I wouldn't includes those kinds of things.

[Sian]

in that case, you're asking people here the wrong questions

[Keltest]

Puzzles like this always bug me. If they wanted to keep the door locked, they wouldn't have left their keys in the same blasted room, let alone literally announce that theyre there. That means that they expect somebody will need to get in eventually, but the riddle requires nothing that would indicate youre on the list of people who can get in, you just need to be clever and/or incredibly destructive. So why even bother with the riddle? Its not restricting access in any consistent way, and it only works until one person solves it. it smacks of having a puzzle for a puzzle's sake, which breaks me out of my verisimilitude really fast unless I'm explicitly playing a puzzle game like Legend of Zelda.

Anyway, theyre probably going to think of breaking down the door long before they start tearing apart the puzzle itself. Especially if its a giant adamantine door.

[Gildedragon]

Anyway, theyre probably going to think of breaking down the door long before they start tearing apart the puzzle itself. Especially if its a giant adamantine door.

There was a thread on this just a bit ago. Yes. Giant adamantine doors are a bad idea unless they're all the treasure there is

[Keltest]

There was a thread on this just a bit ago. Yes. Giant adamantine doors are a bad idea unless they're all the treasure there is

That gives me a rather amusing idea for, say, dwarves to invest all their wealth in a giant adamantine door, coat it so it superficially looks like Iron, and then just put an empty treasure room behind it.

[Paddywagon Man]

Problem is, how do they convert the adamantine door into money in smaller quantities? Say that they need 3000 gp to pay for Rathgar's medical bills and the giant adamantine door costs a million gp or something - do they chip off a corner? Give the chirurgeon a shiny adamantine doorknob?

Awesome idea though. Very Dwarf Fortress.

[Gildedragon]

Problem is, how do they convert the adamantine door into money in smaller quantities? Say that they need 3000 gp to pay for Rathgar's medical bills and the giant adamantine door costs a million gp or something - do they chip off a corner? Give the chirurgeon a shiny adamantine doorknob?

Awesome idea though. Very Dwarf Fortress.

Fabricate into a bunch of ingots
Also the real savings are in getting gear for themselves and then not having to buy it (fabricate into a suit of armor, a hacksaw, a few arrows, a dagger, etc)

In some subterranean ruins a pair of Adamantine doors leading to the granaries or armory would make a fair share of sense.
Grain has rotted, weapons rusted to dust... The door endures

[Keltest]

Fabricate into a bunch of ingots
Also the real savings are in getting gear for themselves and then not having to buy it (fabricate into a suit of armor, a hacksaw, a few arrows, a dagger, etc)

In some subterranean ruins a pair of Adamantine doors leading to the granaries or armory would make a fair share of sense.
Grain has rotted, weapons rusted to dust... The door endures

You see a door, I see a set of emergency adamantine tower shields.

[icefractal]

I did guess that the keys were in the tablets, but not really by an IC route. My thought process was:
* Physical prop of the tablets.
* Other info is in a printout.
* Why aren't the tablets just a printout too? Maybe just to look cool, but maybe because the physicality is important.
* Tablets are made out of dough, not styrofoam, wood, or other materials. Dough is breakable and easy to embed something inside.
* Four keys, four tablets, it fits.

However, until you mentioned the riddle was useless, I assumed that the tablets would self-shatter, or indicate the need to shatter them, once put in the correct places. Still not sure they shouldn't. Making the riddle-solving useless is kind of using the players' politeness (choosing to engage the puzzle rather than just break in, so as not to waste the GMs effort in designing it) against them. It might discourage them from engaging with future puzzles.

Note: If the tablets are different sizes, and they fit in slots in the mosaic, then there's no solving needed; it's obvious what goes where. Is this the case, or is there padding-space around the shield to make them equally-sized?

Suggestion: Unless you want "break the frame around the door" to be a viable method for gaining entrance, make the door a portal instead. Smashing one's way in is a solution that often comes to mind, especially with the twist you have here.

[Mars Ultor]

Puzzles like this always bug me. If they wanted to keep the door locked, they wouldn't have left their keys in the same blasted room, let alone literally announce that theyre there. That means that they expect somebody will need to get in eventually, but the riddle requires nothing that would indicate youre on the list of people who can get in, you just need to be clever and/or incredibly destructive. So why even bother with the riddle? Its not restricting access in any consistent way, and it only works until one person solves it. it smacks of having a puzzle for a puzzle's sake, which breaks me out of my verisimilitude really fast unless I'm explicitly playing a puzzle game like Legend of Zelda.


What if the logic puzzle and placing the shield pieces on the wall aren't meaningless. They let you into the room where the metal door and four keyholes are. That's when you need to figure out that the keys are actually in the tablets. The first step keeps out the riff-raff, the second step requires thinking. Both steps are necessary, you don't feel that either one is pointless.

Now you're inside, and perhaps there's a third room and that resets itself when you enter. Just getting in the room doesn't give you permanent access. What would that be?

Or actually, what if it's the other way around? There's some riddle indicating the keys are inside the puzzle, that lets you into the second room. Then there's the logic puzzles with the shields, but it's got more variable so it's more complicated, you've got to match the warrior with the shield, the coat-of-arms, and a color or weapon. Or should there be a third room, that's what really lets you in. What's the hurdle there?

Logic puzzle/mural, then keys, then the actual barrier. What's the actual barrier though, what sort of requirement to get in wouldn't bug you? Keep in mind it's a low-magic campaign.

[Mars Ultor]

However, until you mentioned the riddle was useless, I assumed that the tablets would self-shatter, or indicate the need to shatter them, once put in the correct places. Still not sure they shouldn't. Making the riddle-solving useless is kind of using the players' politeness (choosing to engage the puzzle rather than just break in, so as not to waste the GMs effort in designing it) against them. It might discourage them from engaging with future puzzles.

Note: If the tablets are different sizes, and they fit in slots in the mosaic, then there's no solving needed; it's obvious what goes where. Is this the case, or is there padding-space around the shield to make them equally-sized?


The tablets don't go anywhere, the shield/icons are the cut-outs that go in the wall. The recesses for the shields are oversized--they include part of the background image. That way you don't just pickup the buckler and see it can only go one place.

What if there's just a stone door in the room, you need to solve the logic puzzle as to whom owns each shield, then you put the pieces in the wall? Putting the correct pieces in the mural opens the door, you enter a room with a metal door and the keyholes. You get rewarded for solving the shield puzzle, it opens the first door. In the new room is where you need to break open the tablets to get at the keys. Now it's a two-step process, you have to solve both puzzles, and each step does something.

There was a criticism that leaving the keys laying around and making it be a one-time puzzle (break the tablets, get the keys) makes him question why there's a puzzle to begin with. You can just walk up and open the door in the future. Should there be a next step? The shield puzzle keeps out the kids, finding the keys is a little more difficult, now there's the thing that actually lets you in? What might that be? It's a low-magic campaign, a low-magic solution works best.

[icefractal]

What if there's just a stone door in the room, you need to solve the logic puzzle as to whom owns each shield, then you put the pieces in the wall? Putting the correct pieces in the mural opens the door, you enter a room with a metal door and the keyholes. You get rewarded for solving the shield puzzle, it opens the first door. In the new room is where you need to break open the tablets to get at the keys. Now it's a two-step process, you have to solve both puzzles, and each step does something.That seems fine to me - "the keys are inside the tablets" is a cool twist if it doesn't invalidate the rest of the puzzle.

As for being reusable - maybe it doesn't need to be? If the purpose of the vault is that there's a dragon sealed inside there, then once it's freed there's no point closing it again.

Otherwise, I think the low-magic way to reset it would be to have a nearby order of monks whose duty is to reseal the vault if it's ever opened.

[John Longarrow]

If its a low magic setting, how long has the dragon been locked in? After enough time its a self correcting issue since the thing does need to EAT...

[Dezea]

Puzzles like this always bug me. If they wanted to keep the door locked, they wouldn't have left their keys in the same blasted room, let alone literally announce that theyre there. That means that they expect somebody will need to get in eventually, but the riddle requires nothing that would indicate youre on the list of people who can get in, you just need to be clever and/or incredibly destructive. So why even bother with the riddle? Its not restricting access in any consistent way, and it only works until one person solves it. it smacks of having a puzzle for a puzzle's sake, which breaks me out of my verisimilitude really fast unless I'm explicitly playing a puzzle game like Legend of Zelda.

Anyway, theyre probably going to think of breaking down the door long before they start tearing apart the puzzle itself. Especially if its a giant adamantine door.

So much this. I am not fond of puzzle in D&d in general, since when I want to do puzzle I do them, and when I play D&d I want to feel heroic. That being said, I guess that different playstyle exist, and that your players might enjoy them...But in this case, this puzzle makes no sense from a narrative standpoint, and I think it's always a big mistake to hurt the big picture for the sake of a tiny little bit of intrigue.

To get back at the topics of the difficulty of the puzzle : It's not that hard...If your player are used to logical test, if they even know how to put up a logic grid, and If they are OK with breaking the immersive exploration of a dungeon with getting out sheet of paper to do some irl writing. That's probably 3 "IF" too much for any of my game.

[Fizban]

If its a low magic setting, how long has the dragon been locked in? After enough time its a self correcting issue since the thing does need to EAT...
Dragons can survive on dirt if necessary and are often depicted as capable of hibernation (though I don't think the latter is supported by Draconomicon).

[Gildedragon]

If its a low magic setting, how long has the dragon been locked in? After enough time its a self correcting issue since the thing does need to EAT...

Sustaining spoon

I'm more worried about... The other thing

[Fizban]

I'm more worried about... The other thing
Dragons can eat anything.
(More likely they'd just breath weapon it away).

[Hiro Quester]

I've had a lot of recent adventures where it's just them hitting people and breaking things. I thought it would be interesting to have them face what seems to be a mental puzzle, but it turns out the answer is breaking something.

Our group would totally appreciate the irony and fun of this approach.

After we solve the logic puzzle (we like those too).

And after we tried attacking the door itself. But you can just make the door's CD impossibly high. after all, it's designed to imprison a freakin; dragon (wyvern).

But yeah, an intelligence or wisdom check might be appropriate if things get too off the rails.

[Mendicant]

I don't see why breaking out a pencil and paper to do a logic grid would be immersion-breaking at all. I've DMed for or played multiple characters who would do just that. I also agree that solving the logic puzzle should be part of solving the riddle. Revealing the keyholes is both a good partial reward and a hint.

[icefractal]

But in this case, this puzzle makes no sense from a narrative standpoint, and I think it's always a big mistake to hurt the big picture for the sake of a tiny little bit of intrigue.If we're talking about IC reasons to create a puzzle-lock like this, the obvious one is vanity.

Imagine you're a knight who just managed the ridiculously dangerous feat of trapping an ancient dragon in a vault. You want people to remember that! So, while the only info that people who want to open it need to know is that there's a dragon inside, why not make them learn about your names and crests also?

...

Now I want to make a treasure vault where each room is opened by reciting the long (and rather bad) poem inscribed on the wall nearby. The Lich who built it just wants to make people read his terrible poetry. He even refills the treasure periodically.

[Keltest]

I don't see why breaking out a pencil and paper to do a logic grid would be immersion-breaking at all. I've DMed for or played multiple characters who would do just that. I also agree that solving the logic puzzle should be part of solving the riddle. Revealing the keyholes is both a good partial reward and a hint.

Its not the logic grid that's immersion breaking, its the idea that anybody of any intelligence would lock a door with one. "only people with a quill, some paper and 10 minutes free time may pass". It doesn't actually stop anybody any better than a regular locked door would, because the literal keys are right there for anybody to access. If the door is keeping something in, then you've pointlessly risked it opening for some random shmoe. If its meant to keep people out or selectively grant access, its failing at that job miserably.

[druid zook]

Puzzles like these challenge the minds of the players, and don't take into account the abilities of the PCs. The brilliant player of a half-orc barbarian may figure it out before the average intellect player of a grey elven wizard with 25 intelligence --who decides to use disintegrate to get through the door. Do you allow anyone to roll an Intelligence check to solve the riddle?

[Mendicant]

Its not the logic grid that's immersion breaking, its the idea that anybody of any intelligence would lock a door with one. "only people with a quill, some paper and 10 minutes free time may pass". It doesn't actually stop anybody any better than a regular locked door would, because the literal keys are right there for anybody to access. If the door is keeping something in, then you've pointlessly risked it opening for some random shmoe. If its meant to keep people out or selectively grant access, its failing at that job miserably.

It'd make more sense in the context of some sort of proving, where the purpose is to assess both cunning and combat ability (since the "reward" for solving the puzzle is you fight a monster.) That said, I'd personally be fine with it as written depending on campaign tone. Plenty of core conceits of D&D are fairly silly if you look at them too closely.


Puzzles like these challenge the minds of the players, and don't take into account the abilities of the PCs. The brilliant player of a half-orc barbarian may figure it out before the average intellect player of a grey elven wizard with 25 intelligence --who decides to use disintegrate to get through the door. Do you allow anyone to roll an Intelligence check to solve the riddle?

I wouldn't except as a last resort/admission of total failure. (I also think the core conceit in this riddle is more WIS than INT, fwiw) It's ok to challenge the players as well the characters, and it's usually trivially easy to explain it in character. In this case it's especially easy--breaking the puzzle is exactly the sort of "dumb" decision a low-int, extremely literal barbarian might make when confronted with "the key is in the puzzle."

[icefractal]

Puzzles like these challenge the minds of the players, and don't take into account the abilities of the PCs. The brilliant player of a half-orc barbarian may figure it out before the average intellect player of a grey elven wizard with 25 intelligence --who decides to use disintegrate to get through the door. Do you allow anyone to roll an Intelligence check to solve the riddle?While that's true, you could say that about anything in the game that requires thought.

In any system with tactical combat (such as 3.x), then it's the player's tactical abilities which are challenged, not the character. Int 18 isn't what determines whether you get a flanking bonus or provoke AoOs, the positional choices made by the player are.

When the players make any kind of plan - how to break into a castle, how to overthrow a corrupt ruler, how to establish a merchant company, etc - it's them who are thinking of those plans, not the characters. There may be skill checks to gain info that helps with the planning, but ultimately it's "We do X", not "We do whatever the best plan is, Int roll = 17"

When people make preparations - stocking up on supplies, preparing spells, deciding marching order - it's again the players who make that choice, not the characters. "I prepare whatever the best spells for the day will be, my Int is 30" is not a thing.

Ultimately, it's about being enjoyable for the real people playing, not being the most accurate simulation of the characters possible. Obviously don't run puzzles if your players don't like puzzles, but if they do it's no more 'wrong' than the majority of the game.

[Mars Ultor]

Its not the logic grid that's immersion breaking, its the idea that anybody of any intelligence would lock a door with one. "only people with a quill, some paper and 10 minutes free time may pass". It doesn't actually stop anybody any better than a regular locked door would, because the literal keys are right there for anybody to access. If the door is keeping something in, then you've pointlessly risked it opening for some random shmoe. If its meant to keep people out or selectively grant access, its failing at that job miserably.

I would think some random shmoe probably wouldn't want to mess with a dragon, believes that if the woman weighs the same as a duck, she's made out of wood, and therefore a witch; and doesn't own a sword anyway.

There's a compromise between bringing the game to halt by making something actually difficult, and just challenging the players to think a little differently. I know my players like puzzles, I know they like props, and I know they come up with unusual solutions, this is tailored to them. I think they're going to try to solve the puzzle, they're not going to debate the impracticalities of what the dragon was eating, or why the four warriors thought a puzzle was the best system of constraining him and potential dragonslayers.

[Mars Ultor]

If its a low magic setting, how long has the dragon been locked in? After enough time its a self correcting issue since the thing does need to EAT...

A million dwarves (and many other creatures) live underground, where do they get enough food? Do they only eat mushrooms? Why don't they have Rickets from Vitamin D deficiency? Who built all these dungeons anyway and for what purpose?

[icefractal]

A million dwarves (and many other creatures) live underground, where do they get enough food? Do they only eat mushrooms? Why don't they have Rickets from Vitamin D deficiency? Who built all these dungeons anyway and for what purpose?They do eat a lot of mushrooms, such as the Plump Helmet, as well as other underground crops like Cave Wheat. They also fish in underground rivers, although this can be a hazardous process. :smallwink: Also, giant spiders taste like crab ... with enough sauce on them anyway.

Or depending on the setting, Dwarves may be elemental beings that literally eat stone. It varies, but there usually is some answer.

My point is that you probably should have some explanation for how the dragon isn't long starved. Maybe dragons can naturally go into stasis, or maybe the vault causes it to do so. But for something that's this much in the spotlight, 'for no reason' doesn't really work, unless it's a comedy.

[John Longarrow]

Now I want to make a treasure vault where each room is opened by reciting the long (and rather bad) poem inscribed on the wall nearby. The Lich who built it just wants to make people read his terrible poetry. He even refills the treasure periodically.

Vogon lich?

[rel]

As long as giving up on the puzzle and having the party fighter bust through the dungeon walls while screaming 'Oh Yeah!' remains an option I think your puzzle is fine.

[Mars Ultor]

They do eat a lot of mushrooms, such as the Plump Helmet, as well as other underground crops like Cave Wheat. They also fish in underground rivers, although this can be a hazardous process. :smallwink: Also, giant spiders taste like crab ... with enough sauce on them anyway.

I feel like all of this is some double entendre I'm not getting.



My point is that you probably should have some explanation for how the dragon isn't long starved. Maybe dragons can naturally go into stasis, or maybe the vault causes it to do so. But for something that's this much in the spotlight, 'for no reason' doesn't really work, unless it's a comedy.


The wyvern had tunneled its way deeper underground and was eating the creatures that live there, and just now returned to the surface world.

The wyvern was dead most of this time and its egg just hatched.

Dragons have been dormant for a long time, but something has awakened them.


I don't want to run a big underground crawl, so I'm going to eliminate option number one.

Why did the eggs just hatch? I have no idea.

I prefer option number three, but that doesn't necessarily lend itself to my campaign. Each adventure is more episodic, it's a continuing series of adventurers out doing whatever they happen to come across. There's no grand quest or overarching theme. Other than recurring NPCs, the only continuing subplot is that there's a cult that's been a little more active lately, but they're not associated with dragons. Although I have dropped hints that people have spotted dragons in other areas. Why would dragons have gone dormant and are just now returning?

[Mendicant]

It's just that time of eon?

Do you *want* things to get less episodic? Because as of now it feels fine as-is, and trying to come up with an explanation like "dragons are now waking all over the world" seems like an invitation to a more plot-heavy campaign. If I remember your descriptions right from the mystery thread, your group doesn't sound super interested in overarching plot. "Dragons can hibernate indefinitely" is perfectly acceptable on its own, and actually solves some of the ecological problems with massive flying superpredators.

Too much logic imposed on it is going to create new plot holes, anyway. After all, the subset of people in a given D&D setting (or the real world, honestly) who can imprison something in an elaborate prison but can't just kill it is pretty small. I disagree with the notion that "Zelda-style" dungeons are a-priori bad in D&D.

[Calthropstu]

I have tried such tactics before.
The answer is invariably:

Bash through the door with an adamantine greataxe.

[Sian]

I feel like all of this is some double entendre I'm not getting.

Its a Dwarf Fortress reference

[Mars Ultor]

It's just that time of eon?

Do you *want* things to get less episodic? Because as of now it feels fine as-is, and trying to come up with an explanation like "dragons are now waking all over the world" seems like an invitation to a more plot-heavy campaign. If I remember your descriptions right from the mystery thread, your group doesn't sound super interested in overarching plot. "Dragons can hibernate indefinitely" is perfectly acceptable on its own, and actually solves some of the ecological problems with massive flying superpredators.

I'm happy with the campaign as-is and so are the players. Maybe I'll introduce that it's some kind of cyclical thing. The dragons were around a hundred years ago, then they were gone for a while, now they're back. No one knows why, maybe they're like big cicadas.


As far as the mystery goes, I introduced the Roboli clan and their symbol a couple of weeks ago. This time they killed a couple of leaders and found the bull insignia. I tried to suggest those bandits were tied in with bandits they had encountered in an earlier adventure and the players were fine with it. They'll definitely recognize the bull insignia when they find it in Miles' room. They'll also assume the Roboli bandits were involved when they hear about the lady's past, so when they find out the dead steward had some connection, they'll fill in the rest for themselves.

They thought the bandit raid was just a throwaway fight, but it allowed me to establish a motive for a crime that hasn't yet occurred. We'll do the puzzle/wyvern adventure tomorrow, and then it looks like we can't meet again until mid-June for the mystery adventure. I've heard a few players discussing the Murder on the Orient Express movie, and they seemed pretty eager to see it. I think they'll be pleased when they find out they're in the middle of a whodunnit.

[The_Jette]

So, why didn't the people who locked up the Dragon just write in huge letters (maybe ensorcelled so that any literate person can understand it) the following:

Ancient Evil Dragon inside. STAY OUT!!!

Sure, adventurers would still come, anyways. But, it does seem like an equally capable way of keeping people out than the key puzzle. Plus, why do the PC's wanna awake an evil sleeping dragon? That seems like the opposite of the intelligent thing to do.

[Keltest]

So, why didn't the people who locked up the Dragon just write in huge letters (maybe ensorcelled so that any literate person can understand it) the following:

Ancient Evil Dragon inside. STAY OUT!!!

Sure, adventurers would still come, anyways. But, it does seem like an equally capable way of keeping people out than the key puzzle. Plus, why do the PC's wanna awake an evil sleeping dragon? That seems like the opposite of the intelligent thing to do.

Because its there, obviously. I mean, ascribing intelligent motives to PCs? Sheesh.

[Mendicant]

No one knows why, maybe they're like big cicadas.

All of my dragons from here on out are going to chirp really loudly.

[Mars Ultor]

We played the adventure yesterday and it went strangely. Two players missed it so it turned out each player got their own tablet.

One issue that occasionally arises when we play is that I have a particular regional accent and I now live in a neighboring state. There are times when my accent is not clearly understood or may be mocked. For example, I pronounce "huge," meaning large, as "yooge."


They arrive in the village where the dragon had been sighted and they question some guy on the street.

Joe: Greetings. Is this where the dragon was seen flying around?

Me: Yes, it took some of Feran's sheep. A few others have spotted it, too. I haven't seen it myself.

Chris: Who's your leader?

Me: Hugh.

Chris: I'm not your leader. Who is your leader?

Me: Hugh is our leader.

Joe: We're not your leader, who's the guy in charge?

Me: Hugh is in charge.

Joe: Other than us, who is the leader?

Me: You aren't the leader, Hugh is the leader.

Chris: Is that all you can say?

Me: No. I'm saying other words. You asked a question. I'm telling you who our leader is. It's Hugh.

Joe: We're not your leader. What is the name of the person in this town who's in charge of things?

Me: I'm telling you, it's Hugh. Hugh is the leader.

Chris: You are the leader?

Me: Hugh is the leader.

Tim: Can you spell the leader's name?

Me: I can't read or write but a few words.

Joe: What's your name?

Me: Wilfrid.

Joe: You're not the leader?

Me: No, I'm a thatcher. Hugh is the leader.

Chris: I'm not the leader, so if I'm not the leader, who is the leader?

Me: Hugh.

Tim: Are you saying "Huh-yoo"?

Me: Yes, Hugh.

Everyone: Ohhh. Hugh.

Joe: Where's Hugh live?

Me: Third house down, with the red door.

Chris: Thanks.



After speaking to Hugh, he takes them to the cave where they begin to solve the puzzle. This takes them under three minutes.

Chris: So if Gudrun has the buckler, then he also has the Lion.

Joe: [Holding tablet.] Is this cookie dough? It smells like cookie dough. Can I eat it?

Me: I wouldn't suggest eating it.

Chris: I think I've got it. Almost done.

Joe: Wow, you even put runes on here! This is so cool! [Holds it up to the light.] There's a key inside the dough!

Me: You suck.

Chris: I throw my tablet on the ground!

Joe: Can I open this? Is this your house key? This isn't cookie dough?



[B]They put the puzzle pieces in the wall and break open all the tablets. They go into the room with the keys and turn them all at the same time according to the instructions.


Penny: One, two, three, turn! What happens?

Me: You hear the sound of locks unlocking.

Penny: Does the door open?

Me: No.

Chris: I push the door.

Me: Nothing happens.

Chris: I try to get my fingers underneath and lift the door.

Me: It appears the metal door goes below the stone threshold, you can't get your fingers underneath.

Joe: If I hit the door with my sword will I damage my sword?

Me: How would you know that?

Penny: Does a particular key go with a particular key hole? Are there any marking on the keys, or on the locks?

Me: The keys and key holes look identical.

Penny: Are there different colors?

Me: No.

Penny: Did the tablets have the four names? Like, this key is Arth's key, and it has to be used in Arth's lock?

Me: The tablets looked identical and the keys and key holes look identical.

Chris: We try different keys in different locks.

Me: If you turn them in unison they lock and unlock, otherwise nothing happens.

Chris: I'm going to search the room again. Penny is a elf, can't she find secret doors?

Joe: Describe the room again.

Me: It's a cavern about thirty feet across and forty feet deep. The ceiling is at least twenty feet high. The walls are made of dressed stone, the floor has paved stone. The wall behind you had the opening with the wooden doors, that's back into the mural room. The left-hand side is just a wall, the right-hand side has a big ship's wheel, like the steering wheel, mounted to the wall. It's almost six feet high and it's wooden with metal fittings, the axle disappears into the stone. The wall in front of you is the large metal door, it's about twenty feet across and goes from floor to ceiling. It's made of sheets of metal riveted together. You can't tell what's underneath the metal plates.There's a carved stone molding around the entire door and it looks like the door is set into the stone. Set equidistantly apart on the door are four key holes. They appear to match the keys you have.

Joe: Are there hinges?

Me: No visible hinges.

Chris: Can I lift the door?

Me: There are small rivets joining the metal plates that cover the door, but they're not large enough to get your hands on.

Penny: We try turning the keys the other way.

Me: The door makes a locking sound.

Penny: We turn them again.

Me: You hear an unlocking sound.



This goes on for another twenty minutes, with them crawling on the floor, tapping the wall, trying to push against the door. They ask me to read the description again.


Joe: I look at the wheel.

Me: It resembles a ship's wheel, it's wooden with metal fittings. About six feet in diameter. The part that it revolves around is set into the stone wall.

Joe: Can I turn it? I try clockwise.

Me: When you turn it you hear the sounds of chains moving and then there's some resistance. Make a strength check.

Chris: I'll help. [They make a successful roll.]

Me: You begin to turn the wheel and it sticks at first, then moves a little more smoothly. The door starts rising up into the ceiling. You hear the sounds of gears turning and chains moving.

Joe: You never told us about the wheel.

Me: I read the description several times and you guys even examined it before. [I read it again.]

Joe: Oh, when you said ship's wheel, I thought you meant one of those wheels like on a steamboat. Where it paddles through the water.

Me: Even if that's the case, why wouldn't you think the wheel might have a purpose?

Joe: There's no water.

Chris: Squire! Take the torch and step into the cavern.

Penny, Joe, Tim, Me: His name is Derek.

Me: Derek advances carefully with his shield and torch.

Chris: I move away from the opening and get my weapon ready.

Joe: I tell Derek to stay here, I'll check it out. Come on, Chris.

Chris: I'll stand near the wheel just in case. You go.

Joe: Dude, did you take an Oath of Cowardice? You're the world's worst paladin.



Later, after investigating the cave and the wyvern's lair.


Chris: Why did the dragon disappear for two hundred years and suddenly show up now?

Joe: Maybe it's not the same dragon.

Chris: But it's using the same cave.

Tim: It was trapped, and now it tunneled out somewhere else.

Chris: It took hundred of years to get out?

Joe: Maybe they hibernate.

Tim: Maybe dragons are like cicadas.

[ATHATH]

Maybe the dragon has a Ring of Sustenance?