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ErebusVonMori
2017-04-30, 07:09 PM
More or less the title, which is stronger, a demilich or a lich who's of the same ECL and level through application of the Evolved Undead template. I mean thematically I far prefer the latter, but which is better stats wise.

Round 1. Begin!

JNAProductions
2017-04-30, 07:17 PM
Wrong subforum. This belongs in the 3.5 section, unless I'm mistaken.

In addition, do you mean more powerful in a 1v1 fight, how hard they are to kill permanently, how they fare against a dragon, a standard adventuring party, what?

noob
2017-04-30, 07:20 PM
3.5 Srd demilich do not have a la and thus can hardly have a defined ecl(ecl=hd+la so it is not defined if la is not defined)
so I guess that you are not in 3.5 srd for the purposes of that comparison.
Pathfinder demilich have as a cr the level of the base lich + 3(or 16 if 16 is higher)
So a pathfinder lich without other template of the same cr have 3 more levels.

Inevitability
2017-05-01, 12:23 AM
Wait, is this a fight between a demilich wizard 21 and a lich wizard 11 with Evolved Undead applied X times? Because in that case the lack of casting is going to result in the annihilation of the latter.

Esprit15
2017-05-01, 04:23 AM
Yeah, there is nothing in the evolved undead template that comes anywhere close to the demilich. Magic Immunity and the AC increase alone make it better, before adding in the at will spells and obnoxious mental stat increases. That the earliest it becomes available is 21st means that said wizard is also going to be epic. Evolved undead... heal a lot? Have a decent AC boost? They don't even compare.

ErebusVonMori
2017-05-01, 06:25 AM
Ah, yeah, increased challenge rating isn't increased LA, my mistake, too much homebrew. I was thinking stacking the evolved template six times to match the CR.

Inevitability
2017-05-01, 08:11 AM
Ah, yeah, increased challenge rating isn't increased LA, my mistake, too much homebrew. I was thinking stacking the evolved template six times to match the CR.

Lich still loses, insofar as a being that has access to epic spells can be said to be capable of 'losing'.

noob
2017-05-01, 09:14 AM
The lich saved a whole lot of gold in not creating the 8 soul gems so the lich have more items.
Not that it matters for epic spell-casters.

ErebusVonMori
2017-05-01, 10:05 AM
Does it though? If they're a Cha based caster their spells get a boost with each template stack,

JNAProductions
2017-05-01, 10:07 AM
Does it though? If they're a Cha based caster their spells get a boost with each template stack,

The Lich, at 11th level, has 6th level spells available. The Demilich has 9ths.

That's a WORLD of difference.

noob
2017-05-01, 10:33 AM
You did not understood he said the following:


More or less the title, which is stronger, a demilich or a lich who's of the same ECL and level through application of the Evolved Undead template. I mean thematically I far prefer the latter, but which is better stats wise.

He said same level for both and then apply the evolved template to the lich.

JNAProductions
2017-05-01, 10:38 AM
Huh. Okay, then there's a competition.

ErebusVonMori
2017-05-01, 11:08 AM
Now I've reread my Epic Level Handbook make that same CR and level, with the difference made up with the evolved template. Cause I'm a moron that mistook CR for LA, though seriously, what were they smoking when they didn't give that an LA?

I'm aware this won't be cut and dried, after all a wizard lich, cleric lich and dread nec lich will likely get different milage out of the two.

icefractal
2017-05-01, 04:09 PM
So are we talking about something like Evolved (x6) Lich [Caster] 21 vs Demilich [Caster] 21?
Because in that case it's not even close, the Demilich wins easily.

Let's look at what Evolved Undead x6 gets you:
+6 NA
Demilich gets +21 insight to AC, and (for a medium-sized Lich) +4 for being Diminutive.

SLAs: Variable, my pick would be greater invisibility 3/day, greater dispel magic 3/day
Demilich gets much better ones, most of which are at will.

Fast Healing 3 or 18 (unclear if it stacks)
Slight advantage to Lich, but Demilich is better in every other defensive way and has Harm at will for healing.

+12 Strength, +12 Charisma
Lich would be slightly better for Charisma-based casters, worse for anyone else. I think the other benefits of Demilich outweight a 2-point difference though, even for Sorcerer.

And that's ignoring all the other benefits of Demilich, such as Trap the Soul with a very high DC, 'wear' gear remotely so it can't be dispelled, no somatic components ever, rapid fly speed, huge bonus to attack rolls, huge bonuses to turn resistances, skills, etc.

noob
2017-05-01, 04:42 PM
You mostly do not care: the main feature is level 21 caster with epic spells.
If you think that having templates gives an advantage then both might start templatestacking indefinitely by alternating worms that walks,lich and demilich forever.