DMs vs. Spears

[Scorponok]

Some DMs don't really like dealing with PCs who use spear weapons due to their reach, and the PCs getting attacks of opportunities whenever an NPC enemy without a reach weapon needs to get in close.

Personally, I don't mind PCs who use spears and other reach weapons. The only problem is if you want to go tit for tat with them, you also have to equip the enemy NPCs with reach weapons. This is fine, but then your other PCs have a disadvantage against all your enemy NPCs who now have reach weapons.

Is there a way to give the NPCs without reach weapons some advantage when fighting against spear PC? I was thinking maybe a way to "trap" the weapon while the PC is making an Attack of Opportunity, or a way to fight defensively while moving into the threat range.

So far, every about one in five NPCs of mine have a reach weapon. Was thinking of increasing this to 2 of 5, but didn't want to overwhelm the PCs without reach weapons - though historically, putting a sharp object on the end of a long stick was a lot cheaper and cost effective than forging a whole sword. Someone told me most militias and armies were made of spearmen. The glorious battles with armies filled with knights in full plate armor were very very rare.

[ImperatorV]

Never had a problem with spears. Giving the melee character attacks of opportunity against every opponent is not overpowered in the slightest and helps them feel relevant. Pretty much any spellcaster can do things a lot more impressive than some free attacks.

Also, you are correct that most ancient and medieval armies were composed of spearmen. Spears are cheap and when massed in large numbers could form big spiky blocks that can deter cavalry charges. Only nobles would become knights, because knight armor and horses were so expensive that only the wealthiest of the wealthy (the equivalent to modern day CEOs and stock brokers) could afford them. The whole feudal system was set up to encourage these wealthy people to become knights, so various kings would have a small core of elite heavy cavalry, which could plow through untrained infantry easily. They had problems with elite infantry with pikes (aka longer spears).

The Roman legionaries, notably, did not use spears (although they did use javelins). They preferred stabbing swords which were easier to use with the iconic large squarish shields they used.

Granted, D&D is not very much like real life (see above note regarding spellcasters) and that changes how militaries would function (aka, if you have the highest level spellcaster you win).

[Sun Elemental]

Uh... it isn't a problem. Any DM or player that can't handle reach isn't using everything in the PHB.

1) Archers beat reach. Spellcasters beat reach. Even thrown alchemical weapons work, but they suck past lvl1 or 2.

2) Reach squares off evenly vs reach.

3) Most importantly, 5ft steps beat reach.

4) If someone happens to get adjacent to someone with reach (or is Summoned there), the spear-wielder will actually have to move to attack them. Free AoO! Or they sheath their spear, also provoking an AoO. Or they drop it. Either way, no more reach.

5) The tankiest guy on any battlefield isn't afraid of AoO's from weaklings. If the NPC squad has a captain with better stats, let him charge spear-wielders care-free. Unless they're bracing the spear for a charge.

[Scorponok]

I don't have a problem with spears as it relates to the PC killing all my minions. It's great when the PC has combat reflexes, has a DEX bonus of +4 and can attack and kill several minions coming at him.

However, it does make the other PCs feel a bit irrelevant when out of 10 minions, one PC is killing more than half of them.

[Crake]

Uh... it isn't a problem. Any DM or player that can't handle reach isn't using everything in the PHB.

1) Archers beat reach. Spellcasters beat reach. Even thrown alchemical weapons work, but they suck past lvl1 or 2.

2) Reach squares off evenly vs reach.

3) Most importantly, 5ft steps beat reach.

4) If someone happens to get adjacent to someone with reach (or is Summoned there), the spear-wielder will actually have to move to attack them. Free AoO! Or they sheath their spear, also provoking an AoO. Or they drop it. Either way, no more reach.

5) The tankiest guy on any battlefield isn't afraid of AoO's from weaklings. If the NPC squad has a captain with better stats, let him charge spear-wielders care-free. Unless they're bracing the spear for a charge.

You'll have to excuse me if apparently I wasn't aware of this rule, but since when did sheathing a weapon provoke?

[ImperatorV]

I don't have a problem with spears as it relates to the PC killing all my minions. It's great when the PC has combat reflexes, has a DEX bonus of +4 and can attack and kill several minions coming at him.

However, it does make the other PCs feel a bit irrelevant when out of 10 minions, one PC is killing more than half of them.

It sounds like the problem is not with the spears, but with the party. Could you maybe describe the characters and which ones are feeling irrelevant?

[Naez]

Never had that issue. Between teleporting, earthglide, incorporeality, invisibility, and large or larger creatures most things are able to get into range without provoking. Also due to the clause that they can't attack enemies adjacent to them there's a way to maneuver on a grid that doesn't provoke at all if you use the standard diagonal rules.

[Scorponok]

It sounds like the problem is not with the spears, but with the party. Could you maybe describe the characters and which ones are feeling irrelevant?

Party is level 3. We have bard, spear fighter, arcane trickster, sorceress1/fighter2, cleric, and sorceress focused on buffing.

[Metahuman1]

I'll second needing a description of the whole party in there entirety, and being confused about sheathing a weapon provoking an AoO.

[Zanos]

How melee engagements with reach weapon users go, with Spearguy being A and Non-spear dirty peasant being B.

B Closes to Melee A. A Makes an attack of opportunity.
B Attacks A.
A five foot steps back and attacks B.
B five foot steps in and attacks A.
A five foot steps back and attacks B.
B five foot steps in and attacks A.
etc.

At most, the guy with the spear is only ever one attack above the guy who didn't use a spear. Notably, if the spear guy had just won initiative and moved up to B and attacked first, this would look the same. And you can't make AoOs when you're flat-footed.

Reach weapons have other uses, and they get better if you have stuff like combat reflexes, but just getting an extra attack on people closing with you is not a big deal.

[Kayblis]

Okay, it's a level 3 party and I assume OP is a newbie GM. There are tons of ways to counter reach.

OP, did you know that charging negates your target any AoOs against you?

Archers are a hard counter to reach fighters, as they can attack from afar and usually spear fighters have low mobility(it's their job to lock down the battlefield, after all).

Spellcasters can cast from afar, and can summon monsters inside the spearman's reach so his weapon is actually a hindrance.

Also, as mentioned above, Large or bigger monsters have natural reaches. Use more monsters like that, they're fun and a good change in dymnamic, and the spearman doesn't get the benefit he's so used to.

No offense OP, but you seem to be using only common melee bandits and guards as enemies. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but you're missing out on the best things a GM can use, namely tactics and non-PC group composition.

[Vaz]

Why are Spears allowing you to hit targets getting in close? I mean, unless they provoke anyway, sure, but they can always take a Withdraw action or cast a teleport spell defensively.

And no, you don't need to go tit-for-tat; you can charge in, and unless an individual has readied their action to attack someone charging in (which is when the Longspears etc get double damage), or has some other method (such as Thicket of Blades, which doesn't come online until 5th (6th?) level anyway) of attacking anything in a threatened area, then no Attack of Opportunity is generated.

Also, you're complaining about Spears being "OP". What happens when the PC's discover that they can throw rocks, or perhaps pick up a bow and arrows, or maybe even throw fireballs. Or do the Psionic Save Point Trick, or call in a half dozen Great Wyrm Gold Dragons under their control for 20 rounds in a single action?

Your PC's have a choice - either just simply running at spears, and hoping that their AC and HP keep them alive long enough to cut through, or by sitting out of reach and killing them at range. An individual with a spear is rarely more dangerous even in a corridor environment, and is often weaker unless they have a Spiked Gauntlet or secondary natural attack like a Bite to allow them to hit individuals adjacent to them. Longspears etc get the ability to use their reach with an intervening person, or have something else to make them more dangerous, but it's not the weapon that's allowing them to be more dangerous.

Spears allow more people to hit in combat, but they're rarely dangerous or OP compared to other tactics.

[Crake]

Never had that issue. Between teleporting, earthglide, incorporeality, invisibility, and large or larger creatures most things are able to get into range without provoking. Also due to the clause that they can't attack enemies adjacent to them there's a way to maneuver on a grid that doesn't provoke at all if you use the standard diagonal rules.

Actually, the rules on reach state that you specifically ignore the diagonal rules when determining reach, likely specifically to avoid that particular oddity (lets be honest, it would be dumb if you could strangely avoid an attack of opportunity by coming in at a certain angle on an imaginary grid)

[Sun Elemental]

You'll have to excuse me if apparently I wasn't aware of this rule, but since when did sheathing a weapon provoke?

Look at the table of Move actions, and if they provoke. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon)



OP, did you know that charging negates your target any AoOs against you?


Wait what. That's not in the Charge section or the AoO section. Source?

[Naez]

Actually, the rules on reach state that you specifically ignore the diagonal rules when determining reach, likely specifically to avoid that particular oddity (lets be honest, it would be dumb if you could strangely avoid an attack of opportunity by coming in at a certain angle on an imaginary grid)

Ahh missed that bit.

[Scorponok]

OP, did you know that charging negates your target any AoOs against you? If you charge the spear wielder, you don't take an AoO at all.

Wait, what? I've been playing with several players in various campaigns who each have 10+ years of player and DMing experience, and this is the first time I've ever heard of this. Book and page please? If this is true, it must be one of those rules a lot of people (at least in my circle of 3.5 players) miss.

[Kayblis]

OP, did you know that charging negates your target any AoOs against you? If you charge the spear wielder, you don't take an AoO at all.

I stand corrected. After double-checking, that line is actually a houserule in my years-long group after a discussion about the Action Table saying "Charges don't provoke". Charges by themselves don't provoke, but the movement can still provoke AoOs if you leave a threatened area. The rules compendium also makes that clear. I'll correct my post on that point.

[Funky Odor]

One opponent approaching with shield/tower shield and total defense for a +6/+8 AC, and if he survives the opportunity attack to get close then he provides soft cover to every attack through his square


When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Cover and Attacks of Opportunity
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

Just an idea if your NPC's are organized. A couple approach cautiously maybe one survives and the others can move up close with little worry from opportunity attacks.

[Karl Aegis]

Idea: Stop having minions jump into the blender.

I think gnolls can pick up a feat from Unapproachable East that gives them more melee range on their turn. But, since your party is level 3, I don't think they'll survive intelligently played humanoids unless they ambush them.

[Scorponok]

Can you fight defensively while moving into the threatened square? The d20srd says:


Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action
You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

The part that might be debatable is the "when attacking". If the NPC is moving out of a threatened square as part of his attack, does he gain the +2 to AC?

Also, in terms of trying to disarm the combat reflexes spearman, does he get two attacks of opportunity? (One for moving out of the threatened square while moving in, and one for the disarm attempt) Technically, according to game mechanics, the longspear can't be used to attack an enemy in the square adjacent, but the rules say they get an AoO regardless.

[Deophaun]

You'll have to excuse me if apparently I wasn't aware of this rule, but since when did sheathing a weapon provoke?
i'm more interested in why anyone would stop in the middle of battle to put a leather bag on the tip of his spear, myself. Is he concerned that he'll hurt someone, or what?

[J-H]

Can you fight defensively while moving into the threatened square? The d20srd says:



The part that might be debatable is the "when attacking". If the NPC is moving out of a threatened square as part of his attack, does he gain the +2 to AC?

Also, in terms of trying to disarm the combat reflexes spearman, does he get two attacks of opportunity? (One for moving out of the threatened square while moving in, and one for the disarm attempt) Technically, according to game mechanics, the longspear can't be used to attack an enemy in the square adjacent, but the rules say they get an AoO regardless.

He would not get the AOO because he would not have a weapon he could attack with.

You're overthinking it with fighting defensively. Put 2 points in Tumble (cross-class) and it's a trained skill. If you can hit DC15 on your Tumble check, you can move at half speed through the threatened area with no AOO. It's a flat non-scaling DC.
Boom, all of your intelligent enemies have a 30%+ chance of skipping the AOO.

[tedcahill2]

I didn't see anyone mention tumble. Even with 0 ranks and +0 dex you have a 25% chance to not provoke an AoO for moving through a threatened square (DC 15 if I remember right).

[zergling.exe]

I didn't see anyone mention tumble. Even with 0 ranks and +0 dex you have a 25% chance to not provoke an AoO for moving through a threatened square (DC 15 if I remember right).

Right above you. Also Tumble is trained only.

[Zanos]

ACP does apply to tumble though, and if your enemies are humanoids they are probably wearing some kind of armor.

[Elkad]

I didn't see anyone mention tumble. Even with 0 ranks and +0 dex you have a 25% chance to not provoke an AoO for moving through a threatened square (DC 15 if I remember right).

You just got swordsaged. And specifically, you need a skill point in Tumble (just one, cross-class, so your modifier would still be zero, but it's trained now.)
"Tumble (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty)"


Edit: speaking of swordsaged.. Zergling beat me.

[Doctor Awkward]

Is there a way to give the NPCs without reach weapons some advantage when fighting against spear PC? I was thinking maybe a way to "trap" the weapon while the PC is making an Attack of Opportunity, or a way to fight defensively while moving into the threat range.

Spring Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) and Ride-By Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rideByAttack) never provoke AoO's from the defending target.

Any NPC can have Spring Attack by level 6, and Ride-By Attack at level 1. Mounted Combat in general is a great way to deal with melee player's that have reach.

[denthor]

all things mentioned about arrows and such

How,about this without combat reflexes 1 attack of opportunity per round. Have three opponents step up at the same time at 3rd he can miss now he is out of his element and alone. Others can come to his aid

[Deeds]

Aren't most reach weapons piercing? You can mix up the minions by using creatures with damage reduction. Zombies have DR 5/ slashing, skeletons have DR 5/ bludgeoning, and Gricks have DR 5(10?)/ magic. Your other players who chose greatswords or maces get the benefit of overcoming damage reduction and your spearman still gets to attack of opportunity rushing minions. :smalltongue:

[Pugwampy]

Is there a way to give the NPCs without reach weapons some advantage when fighting against spear PC?

In all my years of gaming i never had one butt kicker ever wanting to play with spears . Everyone and i guess including me want to play with axes and swords. Spears are "ugly" weapons that primitive monsters enjoy playing with .

I would say your easiest answer is tower shield ,full cover mode and close the gap.
One tower shield fighter for every PC spearman .
If i was the DM , well I would just make use of wizards and archers .

[Arkhios]

It's been a while since I played 3rd edition (or rather, 3.5), but couldn't you just use Tumble and try to get into better range (from 10 feet to 5 feet) without being poked in the eye when doing so?

[Kesnit]

3) Most importantly, 5ft steps beat reach.


How melee engagements with reach weapon users go, with Spearguy being A and Non-spear dirty peasant being B.

B Closes to Melee A. A Makes an attack of opportunity.
B Attacks A.
A five foot steps back and attacks B.
B five foot steps in and attacks A.
A five foot steps back and attacks B.
B five foot steps in and attacks A.
etc.

I had a player who used a spear. "Strangely," he always "forgot" to take his 5' step back to attack with his spear, so I started moving his mini "for him." To be fair to him, I only ever moved the mini one square straight back. Of course, since the player was not paying attention, he never noticed his PC was being backed into a wall. Until, of course, he had backed up to the wall and I asked him how he was attacking with a reach weapon. His only choice was to Tumble out of there (and he did have Tumble).

[Zanos]

It's been a while since I played 3rd edition (or rather, 3.5), but couldn't you just use Tumble and try to get into better range (from 10 feet to 5 feet) without being poked in the eye when doing so?
You could just take a 5 foot step. Tumble works, but I believe it requires you to move at half speed, which would be 15 feet for a good number of creatures.

[Vhaidara]

I don't have a problem with spears as it relates to the PC killing all my minions. It's great when the PC has combat reflexes, has a DEX bonus of +4 and can attack and kill several minions coming at him.

A little surprised no one else commented on this
How much damage is a level 3 Fighter who shelled out for an 18 Dex while using a non-finesse weapon dealing with a single AoO?

[Agahnim]

Let the martial shine.
Besides, if a single PC with reach prevents you from reaching his squishy buddies, it means you're not even trying. Just eat up the AoO (be it through AC or HP), use ranged attacks, or just walk around the threatened area, or use ranged attacks. Don't forget that if that PC tried to "tank" alone for the whole party, he's going to go down fast.

[Karl Aegis]

Let the martial shine.
Besides, if a single PC with reach prevents you from reaching his squishy buddies, it means you're not even trying. Just eat up the AoO (be it through AC or HP), use ranged attacks, or just walk around the threatened area, or use ranged attacks. Don't forget that if that PC tried to "tank" alone for the whole party, he's going to go down fast.

Squishy buddies? Tank? Where did you see those? The topic is a spear fighter butchering half an encounter by themselves and the rest of the party having to share the rest.

[Agahnim]

Didn't he kill them with AoOs ? When used on your turn, a spear doesn't really provide you with any significant benefit - except maybe reaching targets more easily and safely, especially if they have reach themselves.

[Dappershire]

.....sunder?

[Psyren]

It's far easier for monsters to get reach than PCs. Just use big monsters. Or if you must use humanoids, give some of them reach weapons too (or the Lunge feat, if playing PF.)

Someone also made a DR suggestion, that's a good solution (most reach and ranged weapons are piercing.)

[Coidzor]

It's far easier for monsters to get reach than PCs. Just use big monsters. Or if you must use humanoids, give some of them reach weapons too (or the Lunge feat, if playing PF.)

Someone also made a DR suggestion, that's a good solution (most reach and ranged weapons are piercing.)

Yeah, and most of the rest that aren't are slashing. So some creatures with DR/Bludgeoning with reach weapons would be a fight alright.

Like, say, a small phalanx of Skeleton, Skeletal Champion, and Spartoi (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spartolos) hoplites would be a thing.

[Mars Ultor]

Are you against Cleave because that also gives a Fighter an additional attack under some circumstances?

Will you be banning Entangle, Fireball, and all the other spells that affect more than one person at a time?

Is a Fighter having one slight circumstantial advantage really that terrible? He's occasionally getting a second attack against one other guy; is that really overpowered compared to a Druid who has a 1st-level Fighter as a pet, or Magic Missiles that never miss? In a few levels the Wizard is going to Fireball everyone in a one thousand, two-hundred plus foot circle, while the Fighter can make another attack roll against anyone ten feet away.

If he used a Feat to get Combat Reflexes, has a high Dex, and gets surrounded by a bunch of bloodthirsty mooks, he's "lucky" because he'll get a few extra attacks before they stomp him to death.

[Vaz]

Where are all of these attacks of opportunity coming from, though?

[Mordaedil]

Where are all of these attacks of opportunity coming from, though?

Combat reflexes gives the player the ability to make extra attacks of oppotunity equal to their dexterity modifier. I think it's 1 +modifier, but I could be wrong. Otherwise there's no point taking the feat unless you have at least 14 dex.

[Vaz]

Combat reflexes gives the player the ability to make extra attacks of oppotunity equal to their dexterity modifier. I think it's 1 +modifier, but I could be wrong. Otherwise there's no point taking the feat unless you have at least 14 dex.

Yeah, I worked that bit. But how are they being triggered? The Spear threatens a 10ft radius, you don't provoke when you move into the 5ft area, so the target would need to ready an action and set the spear against a Charger. Charging doesn't provoke unless you move out of the threatened square, and you don't provoke when you go into the square, which it cannot do without Thicket of Blades.

So essentially it's trying to get past the fighter, or get close to the fighter, and then retreat, without taking the withdraw, Tumble, 5ft step action or teleporting, at which point it's getting rinsed by the AoO's.

A Dextrous Creature, let's say an Elf Rogue 3 with an NPC array has a Dex of 16, and has some Ranks in Tumble - that's +9 to tumble, so they need to roll a +6. Let's say they've been outfitted with some decent tumbling boots; not magic, but Masterwork which grant a +2 to Tumble. Not only is it a nice little bit of loot for the party, but he can dodge through on 3 out of 4 rolls. A pair of them can quite comfortably go up to the fighter, and risk a 25% chance of getting AoO'd, but then strike back with a total of +4d6 sneak attack damage, which can hurt, given that a reach user has to then drop his spear or lay around him with a Spiked Gauntlet.

Edit; or you know, just use Ranged attacks while he's 120ft away.

[Zanos]

Yeah, I worked that bit. But how are they being triggered? The Spear threatens a 10ft radius, you don't provoke when you move into the 5ft area, so the target would need to ready an action and set the spear against a Charger. Charging doesn't provoke unless you move out of the threatened square, and you don't provoke when you go into the square, which it cannot do without Thicket of Blades.
You provoke when you leave the threatened square 10ft away from the spearmancer.

[Vaz]

So use the withdraw action or 5ft step, neither of which provoke.

I'm asking why is the DM not taking the tactical actions which are in game to avoid said AoO's?

[Ashtagon]

You'll have to excuse me if apparently I wasn't aware of this rule, but since when did sheathing a weapon provoke?

Sheathing a weapon would be a move-equivalent action, which provokes.

Dropping the spear is a free action, and the person could then draw a weapon (free action if they have +1 BAB or better). However, the spear would be on the floor, which may or may not be tactically desirable.

[Vhaidara]

So use the withdraw action or 5ft step, neither of which provoke.

I'm asking why is the DM not taking the tactical actions which are in game to avoid said AoO's?

If you are 30ft away from a man with a (long)spear, you cannot get adjacent to them without provoking.
A 5ft step cannot be taken with any other movement, meaning you end up 25ft away. Big whoop.
A withdraw action only allows you to ignore AoOs from the first square you leave. So you still provoke when you leave his threatened square, and just spent a full around action closing on in someone who can 5ft back and stab you on his turn anyways.
Lemee draw a grid
X = Empty, S= Spearguy, T = threatened Square, E = Enemy
TTTXX
XXTXX
SXTXE
XXTXX
TTTXX


E cannot get adjacent to S without exiting a square marked T. If E exits a square marked T without a Tumble check, a 5ft step, or the first square of movement of a Withdraw action, he provokes. How does E reach and attack S without provoking?

[Coidzor]

If you are 30ft away from a man with a (long)spear, you cannot get adjacent to them without provoking.
A 5ft step cannot be taken with any other movement, meaning you end up 25ft away. Big whoop.
A withdraw action only allows you to ignore AoOs from the first square you leave. So you still provoke when you leave his threatened square, and just spent a full around action closing on in someone who can 5ft back and stab you on his turn anyways.
Lemee draw a grid
X = Empty, S= Spearguy, T = threatened Square, E = Enemy
TTTXX
XXTXX
SXTXE
XXTXX
TTTXX


E cannot get adjacent to S without exiting a square marked T. If E exits a square marked T without a Tumble check, a 5ft step, or the first square of movement of a Withdraw action, he provokes. How does E reach and attack S without provoking?

Either dedicated teams of tumbling rogues or tower shields that are discarded upon closing with the reach weapon user.

Any swarms which don't care about weapon damage that can grapple?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, I worked that bit. But how are they being triggered? The Spear threatens a 10ft radius, you don't provoke when you move into the 5ft area, so the target would need to ready an action and set the spear against a Charger. Charging doesn't provoke unless you move out of the threatened square, and you don't provoke when you go into the square, which it cannot do without Thicket of Blades.
Um, nothing about charging provides AoO protection. Unless you're charging with a reach weapon, you need to move through that band of threatened squares 10ft away.


A little surprised no one else commented on this
How much damage is a level 3 Fighter who shelled out for an 18 Dex while using a non-finesse weapon dealing with a single AoO?
Yeah, this is probably the operative point. If the guy is mowing down 4 mooks/turn with AoOs, you probably need tougher mooks.

[Maximum Carnage]

Honestly, I see the need for reach weapons. The problem is not so much that they exist, in my experience, it's the players who use them that are the problem.

There's nothing wrong with optimization, but when a weakling picks a reach weapon (Trident/spear/ranseur.) They're doing it because they want to be better protected or harder to get close to. Or they're trying to be Mr. Big**** who can do it all. But from a creature or enemy standpoint, if I see a caster attacking from 10 ft out, standing behind his party's meatshield. I prioritize them. It's easy for someone to look at the weapon table and see reach weapons, and say "Wow, there's no downside to these." (except perhaps the lance) But then that must carry over into real play, you can't expect to wield a weapon like that and not gain attention.

IE: My party consists of three members, two of which are a DN and a Knight, they've adopted an incredibly boring encounter strategy of the Knight attacks, and The DN if he's not casting spells, just stabs at enemies over the shoulder of the Knight, while this is all well and good, and totally viable, I Immediately deduce whether or not the creatures fighting my party are smart enough to strategize, and have them claw and scratch, tooth over nail, to get to the DN. After a bit of conditioning like this, my DN stopped messing around with his Ranseur, and uses it only as a last resort now (as it should be)

So in summation, yes reach weapons can be horse****, and I personally think they should all function like the lance. (Can attack 10 ft out, but if the enemy gets adjacent to you then you're SOL)

Just my two cents,
MC

[Zanos]

The downside to reach weapons is that their other stats are usually worse. A glaive and greatsword are both 2H martial slashing weapons, but the greatsword has better damage dice and a better critical threat range. The spear and longspear are both 2h simple weapons with nearly identical stats, but the longspear has reach and the spear can be thrown with a 20ft range increment, which isn't terrible.

[Maximum Carnage]

The downside to reach weapons is that their other stats are usually worse. A glaive and greatsword are both 2H martial slashing weapons, but the greatsword has better damage dice and a better critical threat range. The spear and longspear are both 2h simple weapons with nearly identical stats, but the longspear has reach and the spear can be thrown with a 20ft range increment, which isn't terrible.

Yes, this is true, but a lot of times people who choose these weapons don't have access to martial weapons, (Wiz/Druid/Sorcerer/DN)

[Zanos]

Yes, this is true, but a lot of times people who choose these weapons don't have access to martial weapons, (Wiz/Druid/Sorcerer/DN)
That's why I brought up the spear and longspear. Wizards aren't proficient with simple weapons, by the way. Even if they were I'd much rather plink with my crossbow than put my squishy d4 body within full attack range of a monster.

[Doctor Awkward]

Sheathing a weapon would be a move-equivalent action, which provokes.

Dropping the spear is a free action, and the person could then draw a weapon (free action if they have +1 BAB or better). However, the spear would be on the floor, which may or may not be tactically desirable.


Drawing a weapon for free requires a feat.
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickDraw)

If you have a +1 BAB or better, you can draw a weapon for free as part of your movement for the round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon), but you are still required to spend a move action on moving.

[Holydarkness]

You could also just arrange your encounters differently. Having encounters full of mooks might play to the spear fighters advantage of having many AoO's. However, a Large, higher AC opponent could neutralize this. Many of the options to counter this fighter are going to depend on your campaign and the enemies you have you players regularly going up against. Like others have mentioned, have 2 or 3 equal heavier armored opponents and then have the rest of the encounter have archers or ranged opponents. That makes your fighter less capable, in that even if he isn't able to be attacked he isn't protecting his party as much anymore. IE the sorcerers in the party, the bard and the arcane trickster.

Try to remember that there should be encounters that make the party shine. Having the 6 man party you described against a troll can make that fighter much less useful, and it's not that far outside what they should be facing at their level. (I.E. according to the d20srd encounter calculator they should have an encounter that difficult 15% of the time.)

[Vhaidara]

So in summation, yes reach weapons can be horse****, and I personally think they should all function like the lance. (Can attack 10 ft out, but if the enemy gets adjacent to you then you're SOL)

Aside from the Spiked Chain (and I think a few other exotics from books I forget), which costs you a feat to use effectively, that's exactly how reach weapons work.

Lance's weird rule is that it can be used one handed while mounted and deals double damage on a charge (a whole different ballpark of stupid)

[Azoth]

Aside from the Spiked Chain (and I think a few other exotics from books I forget), which costs you a feat to use effectively, that's exactly how reach weapons work.

Lance's weird rule is that it can be used one handed while mounted and deals double damage on a charge (a whole different ballpark of stupid)

Armor Spikes and Unarmed Strike can cover your adjacent squares. No need to leave yourself vulnerable. They may not be as strong as your main weapon, but they are better than nothing.

I am currently drawing a blank, but I could have sworn there were a few ways to threaten reach and adjacent with polearms.

[Holydarkness]

Aside from the Spiked Chain (and I think a few other exotics from books I forget), which costs you a feat to use effectively, that's exactly how reach weapons work.

Lance's weird rule is that it can be used one handed while mounted and deals double damage on a charge (a whole different ballpark of stupid)

As an FYI to the OP, a feat for your spear fighter to get from Dragon 331 is Shorten Grip. It allows you to treat polearms as if they did not have reach with a -2 penalty to attack rolls. This issue also has several other useful polearm feats, as well as a consolidated list of simple, martial, and exotic pole arms.

Also, if you want to give him a taste of his own medicine you could have a couple of pole arm mooks yourself equipped with the Talenta Sharrash. a d10 19-20/x4 weapon that also trips.

[Quertus]

So, first and foremost, I gotta preach my religion: if the DM is tailoring encounters to his party, he should focus on making the PCs shine more, rather than focusing on getting someone to shine less.

In this case, we have a seemingly fairly un-optimal melee fighter performing well. What can I say but, "yay!"?

The problem is making the others relevant after what I can only presume is an AoO blender. If that's the problem, the solution is simple: just have more mooks, so that there are still some left after he runs out of AoOs. Then the other players will get a chance to shine, too.

The one thing I would work on, OP, for your next campaign, is learning to vary your encounters. Not tailor them. You shouldn't need to. Just vary them automatically, until it's second nature.

People have told you so, so many ways to get past this one simple trick, from archers to casters to acrobats to spearmen to tougher mooks to, you know, monsters. There is absolutely no excuse for this trick to dominate your next campaign. Just make sure that your next campaign features a variety of opponents.

For now, the player had found your world's kryptonite. Let him have his fun, don't suddenly change the opposition's tactics unrealistically. Now, if he gets a reputation, and they know he's coming, and change their tactics realistically, well, that's another story.

[Scorponok]

Thanks for the replies and advice everyone! I learned a few other things about the rules I didn't expect to learn and am surprised this generated as many replies.

The issue was just that one encounter, and it fit right into the spear fighter's strengths - guarding against mooks from coming out of a narrow passageway with cover from ranged weapons. I was more concerned with some of the newer players going home thinking maybe they built their melee characters "wrong" that I'd show them some things weak NPCs can do vs. spear fighters. The encounter this week was against several crossbow mooks on a wall, so the ranged people got to shine. It's all good now.

Taking ranks in tumble seems like the easiest solution. The tower shield is good too, but as is, the fights last quite a long time, and adding to AC would most likely draw that out further.

There's also this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disarm.htm

I have never seen this before, and it's not on the main list of Sor/Wiz spells here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorcererWizardS pells
or here:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I'm just wondering if there are any other spells hidden in the d20srd like this? I use the first list a bunch.


Besides tumble, I think what I might also try is also throwing one or two enemy NPCs with whips. They can make disarm attempts with a +2 bonus, and with a 15 ft. reach, don't provoke AoOs from spear fighters.

[zergling.exe]

There's also this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disarm.htm

I have never seen this before, and it's not on the main list of Sor/Wiz spells here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorcererWizardS pells
or here:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I'm just wondering if there are any other spells hidden in the d20srd like this? I use the first list a bunch.


Besides tumble, I think what I might also try is also throwing one or two enemy NPCs with whips. They can make disarm attempts with a +2 bonus, and with a 15 ft. reach, don't provoke AoOs from spear fighters.

From the looks of it, that's not actually a spell from 3.5 as far as I can tell. It's not in the PHB, EPH or any other online SRD. Googling it only gives results of the SRD and D&DWiki citing it. No hits from any of the "other" online resources.

[OldTrees1]

I'm just wondering if there are any other spells hidden in the d20srd like this? I use the first list a bunch.


All the spells on the SRD are listed here.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/

However if the spell is not already listed here
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm
then chances are that it is not a real spell.