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Dachimotsu
2017-05-01, 01:13 AM
In D&D lore (specifically Forgotten Realms), do imps usually require the masters who summon them to be familiars to write a contract? If so, how would I go about writing one? I know very little legal jargon and am having difficulty finding an easily editable template.

Here's the scenario: One of my players is a warlock who recently cast Find Familiar, choosing an imp for his. The warlock's patron is someone who hates Tiamat, and since Tiamat lives in the Nine Hells, imps typically answer to her (among others). So this particular imp is in quite a dilemma. He doesn't want to help the warlock fight the forces of his boss (Tiamat), but if the warlock's patron gets pissed off, he may revoke the warlock's powers.

Obviously, the imp's agenda is to claim the warlock's soul. And devils love writing contracts, right? So, I need to present the player with the warlock a professional-looking contract that defines the imp's terms, while also making those terms something both parties would agree to.

Millstone85
2017-05-01, 06:40 AM
Which edition is this? It sounds like the fifth.

If so, a few thoughts:
* As written, Find Familiar gives you a critter that "always obeys your commands". It doesn't have a choice. What you are proposing here is a nerf of the spell.
* As often debated, Find Familiar summons a spirit in the form of X, not the genuine article of X. Also, casting the spell again allows you to keep the same spirit but change its form. Thus, the "imp" here wasn't necessarily an imp living in the Nine Hells.
* Pact of the Chain, the feature allowing a warlock to cast Find Familiar and choose the form of an imp (among others), is a boon from the patron. Thus, if the critter isn't in fact loyal to the warlock, it is usually expected to be loyal to the patron, not a third party.
* Warlocks are arcane spellcasters, not divine ones. That means revoking their powers isn't easy. It would be like disenchanting a magic item, or sucking all the draconic blood out of a sorcerer. The patron is more likely to have the warlock killed.

denthor
2017-05-01, 09:51 AM
can you make it a quasit instead of an imp?

Then it is CE and nobody cares.

Dachimotsu
2017-05-01, 11:31 AM
can you make it a quasit instead of an imp? Then it is CE and nobody cares.

Quasits are demons, and the character specifically wants a devil (he was raised in captivity by tieflings and wants a devil to boss around).


Which edition is this? It sounds like the fifth.

If so, a few thoughts:
* As written, Find Familiar gives you a critter that "always obeys your commands". It doesn't have a choice. What you are proposing here is a nerf of the spell.

Yes, it's 5th edition.
So are imp familiars unintelligent? Where do they come from? What are their memories?
I'm basing my inquiry on the "Imp Familiar" variant rules found on page 69 of the MM.


* As often debated, Find Familiar summons a spirit in the form of X, not the genuine article of X. Also, casting the spell again allows you to keep the same spirit but change its form. Thus, the "imp" here wasn't necessarily an imp living in the Nine Hells.

Since imps are a variant that are specifically said to enter into a contract with the master, does making the imp change forms violate that contract? Or does gaining an imp familiar in this way not involve the Find Familiar spell?


* Pact of the Chain, the feature allowing a warlock to cast Find Familiar and choose the form of an imp (among others), is a boon from the patron. Thus, if the critter isn't in fact loyal to the warlock, it is usually expected to be loyal to the patron, not a third party.

He's actually Pact of the Tome with the "Book of Ancient Secrets" invocation. He used a ritual scroll to cast Find Familiar, but I'm assuming the rules of Find Familiar still apply?


* Warlocks are arcane spellcasters, not divine ones. That means revoking their powers isn't easy. It would be like disenchanting a magic item, or sucking all the draconic blood out of a sorcerer. The patron is more likely to have the warlock killed.

Well, I already had him cursed by his patron once for helping an evil dragon. Okay.


I should have been more specific in how he got the spell, but I only came here for devil contract writing advice, so you know.

Millstone85
2017-05-01, 12:20 PM
I'm basing my inquiry on the "Imp Familiar" variant rules found on page 69 of the MM.
Or does gaining an imp familiar in this way not involve the Find Familiar spell?Indeed it doesn't. This is a rule for designing an encounter involving an actual imp in the service of some other creature.


He's actually Pact of the Tome with the "Book of Ancient Secrets" invocation. He used a ritual scroll to cast Find Familiar, but I'm assuming the rules of Find Familiar still apply?The rules of Find Familiar still apply, and they only allow the following forms: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel.

For the form of an imp, pseudodragon, quasit or sprite, your player needs Pact of the Chain.

Unless you are using another MM variant, this one found on page 347. It allows any spellcaster that can cast the Find Familiar spell to summon any Tiny monster, such as a crawling claw, imp, etc. It makes being a wizard or Tome warlock even better, and a Chain warlock much less interesting.


So are imp familiars unintelligent? Where do they come from? What are their memories?The spirit can be celestial, fey or fiend, and it gets the Int score of its current form. Nothing is known beyond that.


I should have been more specific in how he got the spell, but I only came here for devil contract writing advice, so you know.I realize how unhelpful I am with the question you asked, but I really wanted to say that I see the premise as a mix-up.

Edit: You see, I have had this discussion before, and this tweet (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/725190105451888640) from the lead developer is becoming a favourite of mine.
The familiar variants in the Monster Manual are for monster and NPC spellcasters. PC spellcasters use the PH.

Dachimotsu
2017-05-01, 06:14 PM
Well, now I guess I'll just have to see if he's willing to change his pact for an imp familiar, or if he just wants to forget the imp thing. He's not gonna be happy about this.

The Aboleth
2017-05-01, 10:55 PM
Well, now I guess I'll just have to see if he's willing to change his pact for an imp familiar, or if he just wants to forget the imp thing. He's not gonna be happy about this.

Honestly, it's your game. If you want to use the variant familiar rule for your player's character, then do it! The game is first and foremost about everyone having fun, and if that makes it more fun for the PC and you as the DM are ok with it, then I say go for it.

Dachimotsu
2017-05-01, 11:04 PM
Honestly, it's your game. If you want to use the variant familiar rule for your player's character, then do it! The game is first and foremost about everyone having fun, and if that makes it more fun for the PC and you as the DM are ok with it, then I say go for it.

Well, if that ends up being the case, I still need a devil contract written up. :smalltongue:

Scripten
2017-05-02, 09:40 AM
Does the player require the contract in writing? If not, you can give him the gist of the contract's guidelines and have the contract magically disappear after that.

The Aboleth
2017-05-02, 11:26 AM
Well, if that ends up being the case, I still need a devil contract written up. :smalltongue:

In order to help you with that, we need more info on all the parties involved. What, specifically, is the imp uncomfortable doing that would upset Tiamat? What demands is the player making of the imp? Stuff like that.

Typical contract jargon in this situation would go something like this:

"[Name of the Imp], heretofore acknowledged as 'the service provider,' will take the following action(s) on behalf of, and in benefit to, [PC's name]:

A.) Using means both magical and mundane to assist [PC] in combat situations with the intent of protecting and aiding [PC] and his/her party members

B.) Using means both magical and mundane to assist [PC] and his/her party in acquiring information that can be used for the [PC]'s and/or party's benefit

and

C.) Using means both magical and mundane to conduct any other tasks that benefit [PC] and the party, provided these tasks do not carry and unreasonable risk to the service provider's material or otherwordly existence

Furthermore, [PC] acknowledges the right of the service provider to refuse to undertake any and/or all of the above actions if they come into conflict with the following conditions:

A.) They would cause physical or otherwordly harm to dragons under the domain of Tiamat

B.) They would benefit [PC's patron name] in such a way that it would undermine or disrupt Tiamat's goals and/or objectives

C.) If the actions above cannot be explained to reasonably and tangibly benefit [PC] or the party in some way"


Based on what you've given us so far, that's the type of contract I envisioned off the top of my head. Obviously, based on negotiations you could add/amend/remove any clauses or stipulations you wanted, but I think so far this sample provides the framework of what you're looking for.

Dachimotsu
2017-05-03, 10:57 PM
Okay, I finally got my contract all written up.
Thanks, everybody!

Kami2awa
2017-05-06, 04:24 PM
If you've ever read any story about genies, you'll know that "obeys your every command" isn't necessarily a good thing.

Millstone85
2017-05-06, 06:30 PM
If you've ever read any story about genies, you'll know that "obeys your every command" isn't necessarily a good thing.I find these stories highlight the dangers of:
* a genuine misunderstanding of what you wanted.
* a deliberate misinterpretation of your instruction.
* RAW-vs-RAI discussions. :smalltongue:

They don't really make you wish (eh) that a character's commands were not obeyed, because really they were not, or not well enough.

For example, I remember my young self being read the story of a little girl who met a fey and wished for wings. And you see, she didn't precise "on the back, like an angel". The story didn't even address this. So the little girl's arms turned into wings and that was a problem because, well, no hands. The fey wasn't dumb, she actually wanted to teach the girl to appreciate what she has. But actually actually, what my young self got from the story is that the fey was a complete jerk.

Mystral
2017-05-06, 08:59 PM
Imp familiars generally don't require their masters to sign a contract to become familiars. They try to use their influence as a familiar to tempt their master into lawfull evil behavious (which damns them into going to hell in the first place), and wouldn't be averse to suggesting a contract as a quick road to power. But becoming a familiar is more of a thing of "getting a foot in the door", and it's perfectly possible to have a long term imp familiar and not go to hell.

Reboot
2017-05-07, 05:16 PM
I find these stories highlight the dangers of:
* a genuine misunderstanding of what you wanted.
* a deliberate misinterpretation of your instruction.
* RAW-vs-RAI discussions. :smalltongue:

They don't really make you wish (eh) that a character's commands were not obeyed, because really they were not, or not well enough.

So you would reject the Gone Horribly Right (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoneHorriblyRight) scenario?