Kobold Caster Level cheese (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So almost all of us know what cheese playing with kobolds can involve which includes caster levels. So on the caster level kobold cheese I'm looking for how much of a caster level increase can kobolds get. Up to the moment I have the Greater Draconic Rite for +1 and Loredrake for +2. is there any other increases that can be used by kobolds?

[Troacctid]

Not in first-party material. And Loredrake doesn't even work on kobolds (even dragonwrought kobolds), so it's just the rite.

[flappeercraft]

Not in first-party material. And Loredrake doesn't even work on kobolds, so it's just the rite.

Ok Dragonwrought Kobolds. (Debatably though)

[Uncle Pine]

So almost all of us know what cheese playing with kobolds can involve which includes caster levels. So on the caster level kobold cheese I'm looking for how much of a caster level increase can kobolds get. Up to the moment I have the Greater Draconic Rite for +1 and Loredrake for +2. is there any other increases that can be used by kobolds?
Caster Level
A great wyrm’s caster level increases by 2 for every virtual age category the dragon gains. As with the epic dragons described later, advanced dragons gain the Improved Spell Capacity feat as a bonus feat once for every three caster levels above 20th. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm)

[flappeercraft]

Caster Level
A great wyrm’s caster level increases by 2 for every virtual age category the dragon gains. As with the epic dragons described later, advanced dragons gain the Improved Spell Capacity feat as a bonus feat once for every three caster levels above 20th. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm)

This is perfect....

[Troacctid]

Kobolds (even dragonwrought kobolds) can't gain virtual age categories.

[DeAnno]

I don't see why people even think the Rite is cheesy. It costs a whole feat and just draws them even with the Wizard progression. I mean, maybe it's cheesy in a T1 banned game, but even then ... meh.

[Uncle Pine]

Kobolds can't gain virtual age categories.
Kobolds are humanoids, of course they don't gain virtual age categories. I should've specified it applied only to dragonwrought kobold, my bad.

And just to avoid a possible derailment as people start arguing whether dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons: dragonwrought kobolds, true or not, are Dragons and use true dragon's age categories per RotD. Thus, a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a great wyrm dragon. ELH, under "Dragon, Advanced", states that dragons gain a "virtual age category" for every 3 HDs they gain beyond the great wyrm stage. As it's impossible to be a great wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold before 1st level (you need the Dragonwrought feat to qualify as a Dragon), a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold gains a "virtual age category" at 4th, 7th, 10th, etc. levels. ELH also divides dragons in lesser (Tiny as a wyrmling), ordinary (Small as a wyrmling, never reaches Colossal), greater (Small to Large as a wyrmling, reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage), or epic (force, prismatic). Clearly Dragonwrought Kobolds are in the ordinary group, as a wyrmling Dragonwrought Kobold is Small and it never reaches Colossal size.

[Troacctid]

In this case it doesn't matter that they're not true dragons, because the dragon advancement rules in question only apply when you advance in hit dice; class levels don't count.

[Inevitability]

In this case it doesn't matter that they're not true dragons, because the dragon advancement rules in question only apply when you advance in hit dice; class levels don't count.

There are ways to do so as a PC, though.

[Troacctid]

I mean, okay, maybe, I guess, but taking 3 levels of Dragon in order to get +2 CL seems like a bad deal to me.

[Uncle Pine]

In this case it doesn't matter that they're not true dragons, because the dragon advancement rules in question only apply when you advance in hit dice; class levels don't count.
I've seen this claimed a couple other times before, but neither the ELH updating booklet nor the general 3.0 updating booklet mention anything like this. Do you have a source?

[flappeercraft]

Well it never specifies it has to be Dragon HD, just HD which you do gain from class levels

[Karl Aegis]

Table 3-2: Kobold Age Categories on page 39 on Races of the Dragons suggests kobolds use Kobold Age Categories, not Dragon Age Categories, because the table is labeled Kobold Age Categories, not Dragon Age Categories. Dragon Age Categories may look they same, but they aren't labeled the same. Therefore, they are not the same.

[Keral]

Well, if we want to get that picky, it doesn't say that the virtual age categories gained need to be beyond the great wyrm (dragon) table.

Kobold age categories have great wyrm so then it should count anyway.

[Troacctid]

I've seen this claimed a couple other times before, but neither the ELH updating booklet nor the general 3.0 updating booklet mention anything like this. Do you have a source?
The general rules for advancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) in the Monster Manual draw a clear distinction between advancing by class and advancing by HD.

You might also want to look at the Draconomicon's section on dragons as PCs, which lays out (in great detail) the rules for how a true dragon PC ages. (TL;DR when you age up, you're required to spend subsequent level-ups on racial hit dice and LA.)

[Uncle Pine]

The general rules for advancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) in the Monster Manual draw a clear distinction between advancing by class and advancing by HD.
If we really want to nitpick, those rules about advancing by increasing Hit Die only apply to "intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters". Kobolds are neither, which means they follow other rules about advancing, namely advancing by class levels.
Speaking of which, advancing by class levels is an entirely valid way of increasing one's Hit Die number:
- additional Hit Die are listed among the benefits obtained from every class level in PHB 23 and spelled out as such several time. One could object that in each of these instances the wording "increase one's Hit Die" is never used, as the authors instead use sentences such as "rolling a Hit Die and getting the result as hit points", "getting a Hit Die", etcetera. These wordings have equivalent meanings, but hey we're nitpicking here;
- PHB 58-59 also list extra Hit Die as benefits of leveling up, but similarly to the above examples focus on extra hit points and make them the objects of the sentences;
- PHB 60 is the only other part of PHB where level up benefits are described extensively, it reads:

[Lidda] gains the benefits of becoming a 1st-level wizard. She gains a wizard’s Hit Die (d4), a 1st-level wizard’s +2 bonus on Will saves, and 4 skill points (2 for one wizard level and +2 for her Intelligence score of 14) that she can spend as a wizard.
And again, later on:

As a 2nd-level wizard, she gains another d4 Hit Die, her base attack bonus and Will save bonus each go up by +1, she gains 4 more skill points, and she can now prepare another 0-level spell and another 1st-level spell each day (as noted on Table 3–18: The Wizard).
Ergo, you'll see that gaining additional class levels is quite expicitly a way to directly increase one's Hit Die.



You might also want to look at the Draconomicon's section on dragons as PCs, which lays out (in great detail) the rules for how a true dragon PC ages. (TL;DR when you age up, you're required to spend subsequent level-ups on racial hit dice and LA.)
First and foremost, those rules apply only to true dragons PCs: whether or not dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons is subject of a heated debate, but for the sake of this argument we'll consider them as such so the rules do apply.
Dragonwrought kobolds aren't listed on Table 3-21: Aging for Dragon PCs, which means we have to look at the paragraph about other dragons. This tells us that "for true dragons other than those found in the Monster manual, [we have to] construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 3-22: Additional Level Adjustments." For example, let's take a look at the entry for pyroclastic dragons: as their Dragon Hit Die counts as wyrmlings, very young and young dragons are respectively 7, 10 and 13 the table lists 7/10/13; similarly, as their level adjustments at those ages are +4, +5 and +6 the table lists +4/+5/+6 in the third column. Using these info, let's build a table for dragonwrought kobolds:


Dragon variety
Hit Dice
Level Adj.
Compare


Dragonwrought kobold
0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0
-


At all levels, dragonwrought kobolds have no racial dragon HD: their only racial HD was a single humanoid HD that they swapped out when they took their first class level, before selecting the Dragonwrought feat. Therefore, if we were to build a table according to the rules found in Draconomicon, the table would be filled with 0s.
Similarly, kobolds have a level adjustment of +0. This is not modified by the Dragonwrought feat, or aging. It could be modified by one or more templates, but these wouldn't change the fact that if we were to build a table according to the rules found in Draconomicon, the table would be filled with +0s.

[Troacctid]

Dragonwrought kobolds aren't listed on Table 3-21: Aging for Dragon PCs, which means we have to look at the paragraph about other dragons. This tells us that "for true dragons other than those found in the Monster manual, [we have to] construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 3-22: Additional Level Adjustments." For example, let's take a look at the entry for pyroclastic dragons: as their Dragon Hit Die counts as wyrmlings, very young and young dragons are respectively 7, 10 and 13 the table lists 7/10/13; similarly, as their level adjustments at those ages are +4, +5 and +6 the table lists +4/+5/+6 in the third column. Using these info, let's build a table for dragonwrought kobolds:


Dragon variety
Hit Dice
Level Adj.
Compare


Dragonwrought kobold
0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0/+0
-


At all levels, dragonwrought kobolds have no racial dragon HD: their only racial HD was a single humanoid HD that they swapped out when they took their first class level, before selecting the Dragonwrought feat. Therefore, if we were to build a table according to the rules found in Draconomicon, the table would be filled with 0s.
Similarly, kobolds have a level adjustment of +0. This is not modified by the Dragonwrought feat, or aging. It could be modified by one or more templates, but these wouldn't change the fact that if we were to build a table according to the rules found in Draconomicon, the table would be filled with +0s.
Which also makes them lesser dragons, since the same section of the book draws the dividing line between lesser dragons and true dragons based on whether their LA and HD increase as they age, so there you go.

[Uncle Pine]

Which also makes them lesser dragons, since the same section of the book draws the dividing line between lesser dragons and true dragons based on whether their LA and HD increase as they age, so there you go.
That just proves your previous point is moot.
You brought up Draconomicon's tables because they arguably forced dragonwrought kobolds to advance by Dragon HD rather than class levels, which they don't. None of my previous claims about advancing the caster level of dragonwrought kobolds using the rules in ELH required them to specifically count as true dragons or lesser dragons. What exactly are we arguing about now? :smallconfused:

[Troacctid]

That just proves your previous point is moot.
You brought up Draconomicon's tables because they arguably forced dragonwrought kobolds to advance by Dragon HD rather than class levels, which they don't. None of my previous claims about advancing the caster level of dragonwrought kobolds using the rules in ELH required them to specifically count as true dragons or lesser dragons. What exactly are we arguing about now? :smallconfused:
Only true dragons advance by age category, so lesser dragons aren't eligible for virtual age categories (barring the specific exception called out under Armor Class). I assumed you were assuming that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. (Which they're not, but even if they were, it wouldn't work the way you want it to.)

[Uncle Pine]

Only true dragons advance by age category, so lesser dragons aren't eligible for virtual age categories (barring the specific exception called out under Armor Class). I assumed you were assuming that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. (Which they're not, but even if they were, it wouldn't work the way you want it to.)
While it's true that true dragons advance by age categories, the only things that matters are that:
- kobolds have dragon age categories;
- dragonwrought kobolds are dragons;
- "A standard dragon gains one “virtual age category” for every 3 Hit Dice it gains beyond the great wyrm stage. Abilities that function once per day per age category or otherwise use the dragon’s age category as part of a calculation use this adjusted number. Epic dragons gain one age category per 5 Hit Dice beyond great wyrm." (from ELH; standard is an undefined gaming term, read it as you want);
- the fact that taking class levels make you gain HD (PHB);
- "A great wyrm’s caster level increases by 2 for every virtual age category the dragon gains. As with the epic dragons described later, advanced dragons gain the Improved Spell Capacity feat as a bonus feat once for every three caster levels above 20th." (from ELH).
Being able to advance by age categories is irrelevant in this case, you only need to be a dragon and to have age categories*. It's not even necessary to have all 12 of them: the only two called out in the Dragon, Advanced (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm) entry are wyrmling and great wyrm, so if you could find a creature of the dragon type that has those two age categories but lacks the other 10, it would still get the aforementioned benefits.

EDIT: *You also probably need a size, to determine whether you're in the lesser, ordinary, greater or epic group.

[Troacctid]

I mean, okay, if you flagrantly disregard context and tunnel-vision away the parts of the rules that interfere with it working the way you want it to work, then I guess it works.

[Uncle Pine]

I mean, okay, if you flagrantly disregard context and tunnel-vision away the parts of the rules that interfere with it working the way you want it to work, then I guess it works.
I'm willing to step back if presented with a counterargument that is correctly supported by rules. Until then, it is correct to claim that by RAW being able to advance by age categories is not required to gain additional benefits from extra HD (whatever the source, racial or class) past the great wyrm stage.

[Karl Aegis]

I'm willing to step back if presented with a counterargument that is correctly supported by rules. Until then, it is correct to claim that by RAW being able to advance by age categories is not required to gain additional benefits from extra HD (whatever the source, racial or class) past the great wyrm stage.

Kobolds don't have dragon age categories. They have kobold age categories. They only look similar, like how a loaf of French bread looks similar to a loaf of Italian bread. They aren't the same.

[Uncle Pine]

Kobolds don't have dragon age categories. They have kobold age categories. They only look similar, like how a loaf of French bread looks similar to a loaf of Italian bread. They aren't the same.

AGE
Once hatched, kobolds mature at a breakneck pace, using the same life cycle as dragons, but only living one-tenth as long.
Kobold age categories are the same as dragon age categories (namely wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, young adult, adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm and great wyrm). The only difference is their duration, which isn't relevant to the discussion. A wyrmling dragonwrought kobold is a Small Dragon and a great wyrm dragonwrought kobold is a Small Dragon. That's what it matters: "kobolds have dragon age categories" is only really used as a shorthand for "kobolds have the wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, young adult, adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm and great wyrm", which would make threads on them even more needlessly long.

[Karl Aegis]

Kobold age categories are the same as dragon age categories (namely wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, young adult, adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm and great wyrm). The only difference is their duration, which isn't relevant to the discussion. A wyrmling dragonwrought kobold is a Small Dragon and a great wyrm dragonwrought kobold is a Small Dragon. That's what it matters: "kobolds have dragon age categories" is only really used as a shorthand for "kobolds have the wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, young adult, adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm and great wyrm", which would make threads on them even more needlessly long.

So they have the same ingredients. That doesn't mean they are the same. I can make a waffle and a pancake with the same batter. That does not mean a pancake is a waffle or a waffle is a pancake. They are different.

[Uncle Pine]

So they have the same ingredients. That doesn't mean they are the same. I can make a waffle and a pancake with the same batter. That does not mean a pancake is a waffle or a waffle is a pancake. They are different.
But if you find a recipe that requires "any circular, flat brown food made with batter" as an ingredient, both waffles and pancakes will do just fine.

[flappeercraft]

Guys lets stop discussing whether kobolds are true dragons or not since that basically is what happened. Lets just go with give your stuff and say what interpretation is taken for it to work (True dragon or not True dragon) as this debate never ends so I think its best we leave it there

[Remuko]

I think its disingenuous and a bit troll-y to come into a thread literally labelled "Kobold Caster Level cheese (3.5)" and argue that said cheese doesn't work. Its reasonable to assume that the person making the thread knows its cheese since they said so in the title and for the purposes of the thread one should assume it works or not bother posting, as at that point you are just instigating and not helping the OP with the purpose of their thread.

just my 2 cents on the matter.