Pingpong Trick

[gabrion]

This is a TO idea. Vetting to see if I understand the interactions correctly; comments welcome.

Components

Tunnel Fighting
Reach Weapon
War Caster
Lightning Lure Cantrip
Fear Spell

Nice to have in addition to the above

Sorcerer Metamagic (Quicken) so you can do this in 1 round You need your bonus action to be tunnel fighting anyway
Debufs that make it more likely for enemy to fail STR saves vs lightning lure (Bane, Bestow Curse, etc...maybe someone else was nice enough to cast them for you)
Some other cantrip that does higher damage than Lightning Lure


Steps

Have tunnel fighting active
Move next to target enemy
Cast Fear on target enemy
Wait for enemy to act
Enemy moves out of your 5' reach, provokes opportunity attack
Via war caster, use your higher dmg cantrip against enemy instead of a normal attack (or just do a normal attack, doesn't matter much)
Enemy continues to move away from you, triggering another opportunity attack for leaving your 10' reach
Via war caster, use lightning lure to pull enemy back to you
Repeat 5-8 until enemy runs out of movement speed (they only actually move 5' for each 2 cantrips you cast, so a creature with 30' speed could eat up to 24 cantrips on their turn)


What's the point?
Well if it works it creates a pretty funny image. Of course as soon as the enemy saves against lightning lure for the first time the fun is over (which is why they are ideally pre-debuffed...hmm I wonder if Eldritch Strike has synergy here since you could use that for the first opportunity attack to always reset disadvantage vs lightning lure). Beyond that, I didn't crunch the numbers or even try to come up with the optimal build, but I'm guessing it could theoretically put out a lot of damage. Probably on the order of "how much HP does the enemy have?"

[Khrysaes]

MC Warlock, get hex, debuff strength, and at level 3 pick tome and the druid Thorn Whip, which while less damage, has no save.

[PeteNutButter]

Hex doesn't affect saves.

You only get one opportunity attack when someone leaves your reach. You don't have multiple reaches. Unless wielding a reach weapon your reach is 5 feet, with a reach weapon it's 10 feet.

Further failing, sage advice tweets while not official say that spells forcing movement including fear effects don't trigger OA. Personally, I'd ignore that because it's idiotic.

[gabrion]

MC Warlock, get hex, debuff strength, and at level 3 pick tome and the druid Thorn Whip, which while less damage, has no save.

I like the hex idea, it could add dmg and work as a debuff for the original idea. Regarding Thorn Whip, it requires an attack roll, no? So in that regard it's sort of in the same boat as Lightning lure. Even if your numbers are good, the problem is that it requires so many iterative successes (from the player's perspective). Good chance that the enemy eventually rolls good on a save vs Lightning Lure (though less so now that we can ensure debuff with hex, even better if we get bane on them first), or that the player eventually rolls a low attack with Thorn Whip. Still, I like the additions.

[gabrion]

You only get one opportunity attack when someone leaves your reach. You don't have multiple reaches. Unless wielding a reach weapon your reach is 5 feet, with a reach weapon it's 10 feet.

Further failing, sage advice tweets while not official say that spells forcing movement including fear effects don't trigger OA. Personally, I'd ignore that because it's idiotic.

1) Tunnel Fighter (check it out)
2) Pretty sure I've seen the tweet or maybe it was a sage advice saying you can take an improvised OA when an adjacent creature moves 5ft back from you even if you are using a reach weapon...ie you do have multiple reaches.
3) Haven't see the sage advice on fear. Was it general or specific? Because the language of OAs + the language of the fear spell makes this pretty straightforward.

[PeteNutButter]

1) Tunnel Fighter (check it out)
2) Pretty sure I've seen the tweet or maybe it was a sage advice saying you can take an improvised OA when an adjacent creature moves 5ft back from you even if you are using a reach weapon...ie you do have multiple reaches.
3) Haven't see the sage advice on fear. Was it general or specific? Because the language of OAs + the language of the fear spell makes this pretty straightforward.

1) I'm familiar with the UA Tunnel Fighting and it is overpowered. :P. My statement stands that you only get one OA per trigger. You can't have multiple reaches. You just have your reach.
2) If this exists, I haven't seen it and is likely another oversight by the flawed tweets.
3) If I recall it was in specific reference to dissonant whispers. Like I said the tweets aren't official and lead to inconsistent rulings.

[gabrion]

1) I'm familiar with the UA Tunnel Fighting and it is overpowered. :P. My statement stands that you only get one OA per trigger. You can't have multiple reaches. You just have your reach.
2) If this exists, I haven't seen it and is likely another oversight by the flawed tweets.
3) If I recall it was in specific reference to dissonant whispers. Like I said the tweets aren't official and lead to inconsistent rulings.

Ok I thought in your first post you were suggesting a strict limit of 1 Opportunity Attack, which is why I referenced Tunnel Fighting. But if I understand you that wasn't the argument, it was that you don't get multiple because you don't have multiple reaches. I will try to find the tweet or sage advice where I thought I saw this. Keep in mind that even if it doesn't work as two instances of the enemy leaving your reach each turn, that would just mean cutting out steps 5-6. So it would still create a pretty funny pingpong situation, but only casting lightning lure 12x on the enemy's turn (assuming they have 30' speed and continue to fail saves).

[PeteNutButter]

Ok I thought in your first post you were suggesting a strict limit of 1 Opportunity Attack, which is why I referenced Tunnel Fighting. But if I understand you that wasn't the argument, it was that you don't get multiple because you don't have multiple reaches. I will try to find the tweet or sage advice where I thought I saw this. Keep in mind that even if it doesn't work as two instances of the enemy leaving your reach each turn, that would just mean cutting out steps 5-6. So it would still create a pretty funny pingpong situation, but only casting lightning lure 12x on the enemy's turn (assuming they have 30' speed and continue to fail saves).

Until you either miss or they run out of movement.

More ridiculous is that you could fear several enemies and move into melee range of as many as you can reach...

It comes back to what I said before, it's UA and it's broken. Anything that completely ignores the action economy is busted. Even in 3.5 combat reflexes was limited.

[gabrion]

Until you either miss or they run out of movement.

More ridiculous is that you could fear several enemies and move into melee range of as many as you can reach...

It comes back to what I said before, it's UA and it's broken. Anything that completely ignores the action economy is busted. Even in 3.5 combat reflexes was limited.

Oh I certainly don't disagree with the mechanical flaws of some of the UA stuff (Tunnel Fighter in this case). Still a funny (and possibly deadly) combo I felt was worth sharing though.

Speaking of UA stuff (and regarding your comment about multiple enemies), your friendly mystic is can really help set this up. Whirlwind from Mastery of Weather lets them pick up any number of enemies in a 20' radius sphere and put them down anywhere else in that space (because that makes sense). No idea what the rules are about multiple creatures in one space or how this would affect their movement, but regardless of how exactly it plays out, it is a nice set up for this combo.

[Corran]

Multiple reaches isn't a thing (though it would make sense to have multiple reaches), so that takes away a lot of damage from this combo (by not allowing to BB when the enemy leaves your 5 foot reach), but that has been mentioned.

Now, this is a good combo (I share Pete's opinion about the tunnel figthing style, it's awful).

If against 1 enemy, you might want to cast command instead of fear (lower level slot). I was going to suggest that you cast longstrider too (in the first round when setting up tunnel fighting), but it would rarely be worth it (it would require at least 3 rounds to catch up, and it would require every lightning lure OA to hit too, so yeah, not a good idea).

ps: Now, I am left puzzled at the question of how does upcasting command compares powerwise to fear. A bit difficult to draw the line when the one becomes better than the other.

[PeteNutButter]

What about forgetting lighting lure and just using the vengeance paladin level 7 ability? Just move up after each OA. That is essentially infinite move speed to keep up with a fleeing foe...

UA is so broken.

[gabrion]

@Corran - Didn't think of command, thx for the idea. I would say the only catch is that something like the "flee" command is less explicit than the effect of the fear spell, for instance if the enemy has a means to teleport, that may be the fastest way for them to get away. On the up side, I think this means a paladin can pull this off at level 2 since he has the first level spell command, the fighting style, and V Human can use magic initiate to get lightning lure.

@Pete - Nice find on the Vengeance Paladin. Slightly different image, but also hilarious. "I'll chase you to the ends of the earth if I must!" However, I think the wording of Relentless Avenger might prevent this, since it says the movement is part of the same reaction, but tunnel fighter makes the OA not a reaction.

[gabrion]

I also finally found the reference I was looking for regarding "multiple reaches." It's Mearls on twitter so I'm not claiming this to be RAW or even RAI, just saying that a lead designer has tweeted an opinion on this (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/726807522879803393).

Question: if I'm holding a 5' and 10' reach weapons, do I get opportunity attach when enemy moves adjacent->5' or 5'->10'? Or my choice?
Mearls: your choice if 2 separate weapons

[Zene]

Pingpong Trick

Oh man, I thought this thread was about something completely different

[Brawnspear]

Negative Nancy chiming in! War caster doesn't let you cast a spell as an opportunity attack, it lets you use your reaction to cast a spell when an opponent provokes an opportunity attack. Your reaction will still be used, though the lightning lure trick will still let you double up once!

[Steampunkette]

Oh man, I thought this thread was about something completely different

Yeah... This is more of a Paddleball trick.

https://cdn3.volusion.com/cxlem.jbcmk/v/vspfiles/photos/Paddle_Ball_King-5.jpg?1329832451

[DivisibleByZero]

Negative Nancy chiming in! War caster doesn't let you cast a spell as an opportunity attack, it lets you use your reaction to cast a spell when an opponent provokes an opportunity attack. Your reaction will still be used, though the lightning lure trick will still let you double up once!

No, it won't let you double up.
Warcaster uses your reaction to cast a spell instead of taking an OA.
Tunnel Fighter lets you OA without using your reaction, but if you want to do the whole "it moved 5 feet while within my reach" thing, that does use your reaction.
Guess how many reactions you get per round....

So you can make as many OAs as you want from any number of individual creatures that were standing adjacent to you moving away, but if you want to do anything else, you can only do one other thing, as that other thing eats your single reaction.

edit: Unless you were doing the following:
Bonus action: enter stance
Action: cast Fear
On its turn it moves away.
Reaction: Warcaster Lightning Lure
It keeps moving away.
Free OA from TF

Lightning Lure sucks (why not just move the 10' yourself?), and adding a single weapon attack on top of it doesn't make it any better IMO.
You get similar damage from Booming Blade or GBF without all of the extra fuss and a 3rd level slot.

[gabrion]

Negative Nancy chiming in! War caster doesn't let you cast a spell as an opportunity attack, it lets you use your reaction to cast a spell when an opponent provokes an opportunity attack. Your reaction will still be used, though the lightning lure trick will still let you double up once!

Ah this does seem very...damaging...to the concept. I'm trying to read War Caster in a way that still makes it work...but...

On the bright side, if you can talk your DM into unlimited Opportunity Attacks from tunnel fighter, you may also be able to talk him into a very liberal reading of War Caster. Otherwise, dead idea.

[gabrion]

Lightning Lure sucks, and adding a single weapon attack on top of it doesn't make it any better IMO.
You get similar damage from Booming Blade or GBF without all of the extra fuss and a 3rd level slot.

Ya well the point was never to do 1 lightning lure and 1 weapon attack, it was something like 12 of each, in which case there is no comparison to BB or GFB.

[Brawnspear]

No, it won't let you double up.
Warcaster uses your reaction to cast a spell instead of taking an OA

....

edit: Unless you were doing the following:
Bonus action: enter stance
Action: cast Fear
On its turn it moves away.
Reaction: Warcaster Lightning Lure
It keeps moving away.
Free OA from TF



Exactly what I meant by double up, apologies for the shorthand, I was rushing off and trying to get it out quick. You can use lightning lure as your reaction and get its damage and effect, then follow up with the OA when the person keeps running away from you.

[DivisibleByZero]

Exactly what I meant by double up, apologies for the shorthand, I was rushing off and trying to get it out quick. You can use lightning lure as your reaction and get its damage and effect, then follow up with the OA when the person keeps running away from you.

And you spent a 3rd level slot to do an extra d8 over what GFB or BB would have done for free.
Or, you spent a 3rd level slot to do less than what BB would have done if the secondary procs.

[Brawnspear]

Oh, I'm by no means an advocate of the strategy, just tossing out my understanding of what would happen. There are far more optimal ways of smacking people in the face.

[Kastomere]

Just to put another nail into the coffin, here's a bit from the 2015 Sage Advice Compendium (up on the WOTC site, I believe).

How does a reach weapon work with opportunity
attacks? An opportunity attack is normally triggered when
a creature you can see moves beyond your reach (PH, 195).
If you want to make an opportunity attack with a reach
weapon, such as a glaive or a halberd, you can do so when
a creature leaves the reach you have with that weapon. For
example, if you’re wielding a halberd, a creature that is
right next to you could move 5 feet away without triggering
an opportunity attack. If that creature tries to move an additional
5 feet—beyond your 10-foot reach—the creature then
triggers an opportunity attack.

In other words, only one reach. Unnecessary at this point, but just wanted to put it out there.
Also, inb4 "what if you have a reach weapon and a non-reach weapon," unless there's a magical one-handed reach weapon (there may be, in which case I will edit), then that's impossible.
Whips would do the trick, as would the GOO Eldritch Invocation Flail. That'll teach me to forget about whips.

[Laserlight]

Also, inb4 "what if you have a reach weapon and a non-reach weapon," unless there's a magical one-handed reach weapon (there may be, in which case I will edit), then that's impossible.

Isn't a whip a 1H reach weapon?

[Khrysaes]

Just to put another nail into the coffin, here's a bit from the 2015 Sage Advice Compendium (up on the WOTC site, I believe).

How does a reach weapon work with opportunity
attacks? An opportunity attack is normally triggered when
a creature you can see moves beyond your reach (PH, 195).
If you want to make an opportunity attack with a reach
weapon, such as a glaive or a halberd, you can do so when
a creature leaves the reach you have with that weapon. For
example, if you’re wielding a halberd, a creature that is
right next to you could move 5 feet away without triggering
an opportunity attack. If that creature tries to move an additional
5 feet—beyond your 10-foot reach—the creature then
triggers an opportunity attack.

In other words, only one reach. Unnecessary at this point, but just wanted to put it out there.
Also, inb4 "what if you have a reach weapon and a non-reach weapon," unless there's a magical one-handed reach weapon (there may be, in which case I will edit), then that's impossible.

That says if you're wielding a reach weapon you can do so when a creature leaves the reach of that weapon, however say your wielding a whip and a rapier. one is reach, one is not. Therefore instances of your reach because you can choose which weapon to take the OA with. Same with halberd/glaive and an unarmed strike, since the unarmed strike's range is 5ft.

You can have 2 reaches, you just need 2 weapons in order to have it. To make an OA with a reach weapon, it must move past that weapon's reach. It doesn't say that it is the only range you have.

[Arcangel4774]

Isn't a whip a 1H reach weapon?
The GOO blade pact flail works as well