Making the Fighter stronger, simply[PEACH]

[Edivad]

I have been thinking: how to make Fighters stronger at mid-high levels while still keeping their flexibility and not changing the class too radically by adding many special abilities that you have to keep track of?

Here's two separate ideas.
Both could be used at the same time, however.

Fighter Abilities

At every odd level after the first(3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19), a Fighter gets one of the following benefits. You cannot pick the same benefit more than three times.

* Quick: +2 bonus to initiative.
* Skill at Arms: +2 bonus on all opposed attack rolls.
* Deadly Blows: +2 to confirmation rolls for melee critical threats
* Deadly Shots: +2 to confirmation roll for ranged critical threats
* Mighty Blows: +1 damage with all melee attacks
* Mighty Shots: +1 damage with all ranged attacks
* Armor Use: Your armor check penalty is reduced by 1.
* Resilient: +1 bonus on Fortitude saves.
* Trained Reflexes: +1 bonus on Reflex saves.
* Stubborn: +1 bonus on Will saves.

Suggestions for better abilities are welcomed.
Do note the benefits are supposed to be minor but still worthwhile. I tried to make most of those benefits worth just half a feat.

Note though that, for example, Mighty Blows/Shots is +1 to damage with all melee or ranged attacks, while Weapon Specialization gives +2 to damage(twice the bonus)with only a single weapon, so it's worth more than half of that feat.

The idea is to make Fighters somewhat more competitive at mid-high levels by
simply increasing their stats a bit rather than giving them special attacks or techniques which make them more complex - they already get bonus feats for that. Also, giving out those abilities at odd levels means there are no useless or "dead" levels.

Improved Saves
Fighters keep their Good Fort saves, and they get to choose if they want their other Good save to be Will or Reflex. Would this make a difference?
At level 1, the difference between a "Good"save and a "Poor"one is only +2, at level 10 it's +4 and at level 20 it's +6. That DOES make a difference, especially at higher levels - which is where Fighters start to become weaker.

I do understand that, on average, their non-Fort save will still be lower because Wisdom and Dexterity are usually not as important as Constitution for them, but still the increased save bonuses would make them more resistant against spells, which are one of the main weaknesses of high level fighters...

[Edivad]

Here's another, very different idea to make fighters a bit more stronger, by making them better at hitting while not actually giving them an attack bonus.
It's not really as simple as the other two, but I still want to share it and get some feedback.

Reliable Attacks
An experienced Fighter must learn how to avoid making gross mistakes when attacking, and how to reduce their severity.
This is handled with the "Reliable Attack"ability.
Having at least Reliable Attack 1 means that rolling an 1 on your attack roll doesn't mean automatic failure.
Having Reliable Attack X means that, if you roll below X when attacking, your roll is considered equal to X for all purposes.

Fighters have Reliable Attack 1 at level 5, Reliable Attack 2 at level 9, Reliable Attack 3 at level 13, Reliable Attack 4 at level 17 and Reliable Attack 5 at level 20.

Do note that these changes do change some fundamental die-rolling rules and make things like "statistical previsions"of a character effectiveness a bit more complex. This is because some numbers will never come up at all, while others become more likely...

Anyway, I bothered again to have these abilities at odd levels, so Fighters get something when they don't gain a bonus feat.

[Arakune]

looks good. now the fighter can have some chance to survive against wizards.

[Joltz]

It's a nice idea. I like what you have so far, especially the reliable attack. The only real problem is that it doesn't address the basic issue of the melee-caster imbalance. Casters become exponentially more powerful with level, but melee (well, any non-caster) classes advance in a more linear manner. Fighters don't get anything that can rival the power of a level 9 spell.

Still, it's a simple fix that makes the fighter a more viable choice.

[Edivad]

Reliable Attack isn't really powerful, it just makes your Fighter A BIT better at hacking through hordes of mooks or monsters so weak that you could hit them even by rolling a 3 or 4.


The only real problem is that it doesn't address the basic issue of the melee-caster imbalance.
Casters become exponentially more powerful with level, but melee (well, any non-caster) classes advance in a more linear manner. Fighters don't get anything that can rival the power of a level 9 spell.

I think it would be really, really hard, if not impossible, to make Fighters advance non-linearly, just like Wizards do. If Fighters had the kind of powers casters get...they would not be Fighters at all :smallmad:
And it's it's actually appropriate that, at high levels, magic and psionics are remarkably powerful than muscles, steel and combat skill.
However, I think my changes - especially giving the choiche of Ref or Will as an additional will save - DO make Fighters better, if not compared TO casters, actually AGAINST them.
One thing I have often read is that one of the main problem of fighters is their low Will saves. I assume Ref saves are not that much of a problem, but I'm still giving the choice for players who want to play a Reflex-based fighter instead of a stubborn one.


Another suggestion, this one not very original, as it's inspired by Iron heroes, a d20 variant which has "Wild Cards"(it's interesting, I suggest you check it out), but still interesting...

Temporary Feats
Must find a better name...
At a certain level - possibly 10? - Fighters gain a "feat slot", which they can use to temporarily gain one fighting related feat for which they qualify. They can use the feat and gain all of it's benefits for 24 hours, after which they can keep the feat or pick a new one.

It would be interesting - and somewhat similar to a Wizard preparing his spells - if the Fighter gets to pick this feat either when he wakes up or when he goes to sleep. Other DM might prefer to allow them to choose their feat "on the spot".

Anyway, this would make the class even more flexible and give them something to play with: for example, a normal weapon specialist Fighter might not normally bother with feats like Blind Fighting or Improved Unarmed Strike....but if your character knew he had to fight against invisible opponents or somehow lost his weapon, then having the ability to temporarily gain the appropriate feat would be an extremely useful advantage.

[Joltz]

this rewrite (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/fighter) gives fighters a lot of cool stuff. It's a major change though. I like it because it makes fighters absolute masters of well... fighting. They become considerably more powerful at high levels.

The advantage your rewrite has is that it's simple and doesn't change the power level a whole lot. If I was running a game of basic D&D, I'd let a player use your version of the fighter because it's a simple fix that doesn't require a lot of work to add and doesn't give the fighter so many abilities that he overshadows the other melee classes.

hmm... I've toyed with the idea of temporary feats too. It's not especially useful most of the time though.

I already said I like reliable attack. Fighters probably should get something like that by default. It reminds me of my level 21 fighter/swashbuckler. I rolled nat 2s on my first attack of the round 3 rounds in a row (and scored almost no hits out of the 21 attacks in those rounds). The rest of the group told me to stop rolling 2s. I still say a 39 should hit most enemies anyway :smallyuk: That's just me being angry though...

[CasESenSITItiVE]

Do note that these changes do change some fundamental die-rolling rules and make things like "statistical previsions"of a character effectiveness a bit more complex.
Well, not at all: basically, if you have Reliable Attack X, it's like if you rolled a dice with (21-X)faces and adding (X-1) as a bonus rather than just using a d20.
So for example Reliable Attack 5 effectively means using d16+4(which gives numbers in the 5-20 range)rather than a d20 to attacking. 'course, all of these things shouldn't be a problem.

actually, statistically, reliable attack 5 isn't like d16+4. d16+4 puts it at the 5-20 range with all numbers with equal likelyness (1 in 15) reliable attack 5 puts 5 at 1 in 4 chance and everything else at 1 in 20

[Edivad]

actually, statistically, reliable attack 5 isn't like d16+4. d16+4 puts it at the 5-20 range with all numbers with equal likelyness (1 in 15) reliable attack 5 puts 5 at 1 in 4 chance and everything else at 1 in 20
Aye. I just realized this after writing it out...with this ability, some die results become more likely than others. Because, whenever you would get 1, 2, 3 or 4 from your d20, you will get 5 instead, making it much more likely. Not that this should be a problem, anyway...

[Demented]

The Fighter Abilities is pretty neat... In the sense that you can have a stronger will save than a caster. Maybe it's too much (maybe not), but it's funny.

[Edivad]

The Fighter Abilities is pretty neat... In the sense that you can have a stronger will save than a caster. Maybe it's too much (maybe not), but it's funny.
I DID add a limitation about not being able the same ability more than thrice.
If you use only the "Abilities"upgraed, you can at most get +3 Will. 'course, if you combine it with allowing fighters to get Will as a Strong save, then I agree Fighters could get higher Will saves than casters.

After all, since Fighters know they will be always be weaker than casters starting from mid-high level, it makes sense that continuing to be a Fighter while you could switch to being a caster takes a lot of Willpower :smallsmile:

An "add-on"for Fighter Abilities could be to use the Half-feat idea with it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46941), with the limitation that it's only for combat-related half-feats.
That means even MORE feats - at the levels when Fighters don't get a normal bonus feat, they get an "half feat"instead. It might work nicely.

[Edivad]

I checked the revised fighter with the "Height of battle"ability. Interesting, if a bit more complex than what I was going for.

About that, here's yet ANOTHER Idea.

Giving Fighter X times/day abilities
Yes, that would be weird. One of a Fighter strong point is that he is always reliable and can last a long time or, if he gets healing, face a lot of encounters in a row. He can swing his weapon even a thousand times in a day, while casters can't do the same with their spells.
However, I thing it would be nice to allow fighters some to gain some extra power a few times/day, mainly to use against "boss"monsters or during particularly challenging encounters. Basically, these are "self-buffs"the Fighters can use when he is in a tough situation...
I'm comparing these abilities to spells, however they will all obviously be Extraordinary abilities and never subject to SR or anti magic.

Strike True
Obviously inspired by the True Strike spell.
This ability is intended to be useful when the Fighter REALLY wants to hit, or if he wants to deal a really damaging blow using Power Attack...
Usable (Fighter's level/5)times/day as a move action. Grants a (Fighter's level/2)bonus to the next single attack roll.
A level 6 Fighter could use this ability only once per day, gaining a +3 attack bonus. A level 20 Fighter could use it 4 times/day, gaining a +10 bonus instead

Strike With All Your Might
Obviously inspired by the True Strike spell. Useful against high DR enemies, can be devastating if combined with Power Attack.
Usable (Fighter's level/4)times/day as a move action. Grants a Fighter his class level as a bonus to the damage of his next attack.
A level 12 Fighter could use this ability only 3 times/day, gaining a +12 attack bonus. A level 20 Fighter could use it 5 times/day, gaining a +20 bonus instead

Second Wind
Allows a Fighter to catch his breath and heal himself a bit. It also simulates how an experienced Fighter might heal faster just by being used to being wounded..
Usable (Fighter's level/4)times/day as a full-round action which threatens attacks of opportunity. The Fighter regains his class level in Hit Points.
A level 8 Fighter could use this ability twice per day, healing himself of 8 Hit Points
Another way to do this would be to have working as the Paladin "Lay on hands", except it would only work for the Fighter...basically you would have a pool of HP you can heal yourself of/day.

Heroic Bravery
Aren't Fighters perhaps the stereotypical Heroes, know to perform great feats of skill in battle?
Usable (Fighter's level/3)times/day as free action, this grants the Fighter the same benefits as the Heroism spell(+2 attack/saves/checks) for a number of rounds equal to his character level.
It does NOT stack with the Bravery spell, if it is cast on the character.

Heroic Swiftness
Usable (Fighter's level/10)times/day as free action, this grants the Fighter the same benefits as an Haste spell for a number of rounds equal to 3 + his Con modifier.
I'm considering adding that, at the ends of these rounds, the Fighter is fatigued, but that might not really be nice.

Obviously, new ideas for this kind of abilities would be welcome. I was also considering not giving ALL of those abilities to all Fighters, but making them abilities that can be selected at level ups. For every time you pick them, you gain one use/day. This time, we would keep Fighters flexible while not giving them too many abilities.

[Reinboom]

Your variant is becoming more and more closely reminiscent of Bears With Lasers's (see above links) but with fewer selections.

And thank you for pointing to my half-feats :smallsmile:

I will say, with them, that you may wish to allow all half feats if you choose so when structured to my list. Or perhaps an option to choose between either a half-feat or a bonus skill trick + increase of max skill tricks by 1 (completely better than a half-feat in comparison to them, however, is very narrow). This means they can either become mechanically improved slightly , or stylishly improved slightly.

With just my list of half-feats however, I would recommend at least going combat + skill related options instead of just combat. Give them a bit of wiggle room that they don't have otherwise.

[Blackbrrd]

Giving Fighter X times/day abilities

.. sounds like a great idea if you ask me :)

I have watched the fighter in the party I am currently playing in (level 12) and he is usually just wondering how much he is going to power attack. (He should have been pondering how much he should be using expertise as well, but he doesn't have the feat).

Personally I don't feel the fighter needs any more damage (that is, damage from to hit/damage bonuses), but more options on how to fight.

The barbarian has his rage ability and the paladin has his smite ability. The Fighter has only feats.

... my problem is that I have no idea what the abilities should be like... Maybe they should be a set of abilities like the Rogue has at level 10,13,15 and 18.

Some offensive abilities:
Mighty cleaving - the ability to take a cleave attack 3/day after a successful hit?

What about some survivability abilities:
Defensive roll, but using fortitude save instead of reflex save?
Heroic Bravery - the ability to reroll a failed will/reflex save OR add +4 to a will/reflex save
Stubborn resistance - the ability to give yourself SR 10+class level against a single spell

And for gods sake, give the fighter some more skill points/class skills. The current selection is terrible...

[Edivad]

Giving Fighters 4 skill points/level might be a good idea. I don't think there's too many skills that should be added to their class list, though...