Help! I let someone be a lore wizard

[Rogozhin]

So... yes. I'm dumb. I not only let someone play a lore wizard in my campaign, but actively encouraged it. I am a first time DM and was blind to the crazy overpoweredness of it. Also i had said NO to some other character things they wanted to do and it got so nicely with their backstory (a very powerful wizard at the end of their life who managed to re-youthify their body... but ended up in a different plane. Instead of learning spells he is remembering them).

To make matters worse one of the other characters is a sorcerer... so in addition to having trouble balancing encounters their is another character's toes that might get trampled.

Any suggestions on how to balance this out? Fair ways to handicap my wizard to counter his absurd abilities? Ways to boost my other party members to get them up to the same level?

The rest of the party is a storm sorcerer, life cleric, assassin rogue, and an oath of the ancients paladin. They are all level 3.

[StorytellerHero]

So... and it got so nicely with their backstory (a very powerful wizard at the end of their life who managed to re-youthify their body... but ended up in a different plane. Instead of learning spells he is remembering them).


Switching to Conjuration or Transmutation wizard would also fit with the backstory.

[sightlessrealit]

Rather than handicap the wizard why not buff the Sorcerer? Or even buff everyone else? It's what I would do or rather I already do it.

[Zman]

Ahh, UA are playtest houserules, of ones broken, fox it, ban it, etc. just talk to the player first.

[Rogozhin]

Rather than handicap the wizard why not buff the Sorcerer? Or even buff everyone else? It's what I would do or rather I already do it.

Yes. This was what I was thinking... any fun suggestions?

[Malifice]

How is he doing anything OP at 3rd level? Examples?

[Rogozhin]

How is he doing anything OP at 3rd level? Examples?

Tangling with some animated armor he cast Maximillians Earthen Grasp and changes the save from strength to intelligence making it a virtually guaranteed success. It's only beginning to come up but having read about it more since we started the campaign (at level 1) I am anticipating a tough road ahead.

[sightlessrealit]

Yes. This was what I was thinking... any fun suggestions?
Well both the Sea & Storm Origins for the Sorcerer are a bit close. Perhaps give him the push back & lightning curse effects. Or maybe refluff the Mastery of Weather Discipline abilities from the Mystic Class and incorporate them as Sorcery Point effects.

[Jerrykhor]

Tangling with some animated armor he cast Maximillians Earthen Grasp and changes the save from strength to intelligence making it a virtually guaranteed success. It's only beginning to come up but having read about it more since we started the campaign (at level 1) I am anticipating a tough road ahead.

Ask him to explain how and describe the way the save was changed. If you read the 'Altering Spells' box, there are some examples on that. If it doesn't make sense, or he can't think of an explanation, don't allow it.

[Rogozhin]

Well both the Sea & Storm Origins for the Sorcerer are a bit close. Perhaps give him the push back & lightning curse effects. Or maybe refluff the Mastery of Weather Discipline abilities from the Mystic Class and incorporate them as Sorcery Point effects.

I like the idea of giving some extra abilities from another origin for the sorcerer... though I might go with favored soul instead as I have hinted at some divine energy influencing his power.

[Rogozhin]

Ask him to explain how and describe the way the save was changed. If you read the 'Altering Spells' box, there are some examples on that. If it doesn't make sense, or he can't think of an explanation, don't allow it.

Yes. This makes a lot of sense. I should have already been doing this. I worry a bit about it slowing down combat though...

[Jerrykhor]

Yes. This makes a lot of sense. I should have already been doing this. I worry a bit about it slowing down combat though...

Of course you have to inform him before the session, and pretend you only care about the spell's save being changed breaking your verisimilitude. Don't say you think he is overpowered!:smallbiggrin:

If you haven't already, you should limit the time each player takes in combat. Players have plenty of time to think about their action before their turn, so its no excuse. This will also cut down on players doing stuff like playing with their handphones when its not their turn.

[SharkForce]

or, you could just... you know... talk to the player about it. explain that you made a bad judgment call. own up to your mistakes, and ask him to help you fix them.

i mean, all these crazy ideas just to avoid acting like an adult...

[Asmotherion]

Well, talk to the player, explain the problem and encourage either changing school (if he wants to play the character and is not so tied to the OP ness) or make the PC an NPC and make him roll a new character. If he still wants to playtest it, allow it, but also allow players to take UA options for their classes (UA options are usually on the OP side) and consider calculating higher CRs for the party

[Rogozhin]

or, you could just... you know... talk to the player about it. explain that you made a bad judgment call. own up to your mistakes, and ask him to help you fix them.

i mean, all these crazy ideas just to avoid acting like an adult...

Not sure that attitude is necessary... ;)

Yes. You're not wrong. But talking to the player is involved in some of the suggestions posted here and is obviously part of this process. (Or... maybe not so obviously.) Just hoping to get some suggestions from some more experienced DMs first.

[Kane0]

Let the sorcerer use spell points and add his sorcery points into the same pool. You may also want to consider some bonus spells or metamagic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474296-Metamagic-Options-(PEACH)).

Bam, no more toestepping.

[Malifice]

Tangling with some animated armor he cast Maximillians Earthen Grasp and changes the save from strength to intelligence making it a virtually guaranteed success. It's only beginning to come up but having read about it more since we started the campaign (at level 1) I am anticipating a tough road ahead.

If he was a divination wizard you he would instead swap just make you auto fail via portent.

The ability has a number of uses restriction doesn't it? It sounds like your real problem is you're not policing the 5 minute adventuring day.

[SharkForce]

If he was a divination wizard you he would instead swap just make you auto fail via portent.

The ability has a number of uses restriction doesn't it? It sounds like your real problem is you're not policing the 5 minute adventuring day.

nope. bonus damage, range increase, and save DC increase all cost spell slots. changing the save type, nope. same with changing damage type.

[Lolzyking]

You could give the sorcerer premature access to all his metamagic options, also bonus spells equal to charisma modifier or the Storm sorcerer ua's bonus spells.

Also you might want to use surpising less known creatures that the wizard might not know the best save or damage type to use.

[skaddix]

You have failed as a DM...get them to change to something else though.

[Malifice]

nope. bonus damage, range increase, and save DC increase all cost spell slots. changing the save type, nope. same with changing damage type.

Nope just checked the ability:


When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the
spell requires a saving throw, you can change the
saving throw from one ability score to another of
your choice. Once you change a saving throw in
this way, you can’t do so again until you finish a
short or long rest.


Its a once per short or long rest ability. Its resource limited.

This wizard blew through [one of his 2nd level slots] and a [once per 2-3 encounter] ability to drop a CR 1 critters spell save at 3rd level. And then he needed to concentrate on the spell for several rounds to kill the thing.

A single CR 1 against a party of 5 x 3rd level PCs is 200 XP (not even rating an 'Easy' encounter). Four of them is 1600 XP, or a 'Hard' encounter (the expected encounter difficulty for this party, for each encounter of around 5 encounters between long rests).

One 3rd level wizard using a 2nd level slot AND a 1/ short rest ability to shut down 1/4 of of a single encounter doesn't sound bad at all. Sounds like the game working as intended.

It sounds to me like the DM's actual problem here is he is not policing the 5 minute adventuring day at all. He's sitting back and letting the PCs dictate the adventuring day, which is letting them nova (no surprise all his PCs are full casters). If the OP was instead policing the 5 minute adventuring day by ensuring the PCs got on average the recommended 6-8 encounters per long rest, and 2 encounters per short rest, this wouldn't be as much of a problem.

Four sets of animated armor attack the party. The Wizard shuts 1 of the 4 sets down by casting Int based Earthen grasp, while his companions deal with the other three sets (and stops them from reaching the wizard to stab him and shut down his concentration). The players are victorious (as they are expected to be) but down on resources. Then they get another (medium-hard) encounter before being allowed to rest. Then they get a short rest. Then they get 2 more medium-hard encounters. Then another short rest. Then two more medium - hard encounters. Then a long rest.

Within that paradigm (the paradigm the game is based on) what he did isnt broken at all.

I have an archetype in my own games that I use that has an identical ability. Its a 1/long rest limitation placed on it. That would be a sufficient restriction placed on the ability (again, presuming the OP is policing the 5 minute adventuring day, which is part of his job as DM).

[Strill]

Yes. This was what I was thinking... any fun suggestions?

Give him the Spell Point system from the DMG.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Take the player aside outside the game and tell him that you're worried their feature is too strong, and discuss how to change it. (My suggestion: jettison the "Spell Secrets" ability altogether, or at least the "change the save type" bit. Perhaps replace it with a generalist discount on learning new spells; 3/4 price for all spells, perhaps, or the first two spells of each level are at half price, or some such.) And ask that they coordinate spell choice with the Sorcerer to prevent overlapping roles. Honesty is the best policy.

[SharkForce]

Take the player aside outside the game and tell him that you're worried their feature is too strong, and discuss how to change it. (My suggestion: jettison the "Spell Secrets" ability altogether, or at least the "change the save type" bit. Perhaps replace it with a generalist discount on learning new spells; 3/4 price for all spells, perhaps, or the first two spells of each level are at half price, or some such.) And ask that they coordinate spell choice with the Sorcerer to prevent overlapping roles. Honesty is the best policy.

there isn't much about loremaster that isn't broken. pretty near the whole thing needs to be scrapped. there isn't a reasonable amount of tweaking that could bring the loremaster in line with the rest of the game.

[rbstr]

nope. bonus damage, range increase, and save DC increase all cost spell slots. changing the save type, nope. same with changing damage type.

It does indeed have a use restriction. It's once per rest so the absolute worst case, when the party is always fully rested, they use it once per encounter.
That's strong...but it's really not that crazy.

[jaappleton]

You should do a couple things.

1. Remove Lore Wizard. It truly is broken. Offer the War Wizard instead, it's still a little OP but nowhere near as much. When you approach the Player about this (This is important), be honest: Look, I didn't know it was that overpowered. It's really stepping on the toes of some of the others, and everyone needs their chance to shine, not be in the shadows of others. Hopefully he'll understand.

2. Buff the Sorcerer. An easy way to do it is that every two levels, they get an additional spell for free. Just let them learn another. Additionally, get rid of their spell slots, and adopt the Spell Point system from the Dungeon Master's Guide. It basically turns them from a normal caster into a Final Fantasy type caster, with MP. So if you have 25 points, you can cast 5 level 3 spells if you want. It gives them more versatility, which is what the Sorcerer is about; They don't know many spells, but they're supposed to be able to do MORE with those spells. This allows that.

[jaappleton]

You have failed as a DM...get them to change to something else though.

Harsh.

TC said its their first time. We all made mistakes the first couple times, none of us went into it 100% flawless and perfect.

The fact that TC recognized their mistake and is trying to fix it is a great sign.

[SharkForce]

It does indeed have a use restriction. It's once per rest so the absolute worst case, when the party is always fully rested, they use it once per encounter.
That's strong...but it's really not that crazy.

well, good thing there aren't spells that can make that once per encounter affect the *entire* encounter.

oh wait, there are? well, there goes that.

all it takes is a int-based stinking cloud, web, confusion, etc and suddenly "once per encounter" means most of the monsters in the encounter are screwed for the *entire* encounter. especially if there are resources to spare for +2 DC on top of that. the fact that the character picked a spell that doesn't showcase just how broken the ability can be doesn't mean the ability isn't incredibly broken.

furthermore, completely broken OP once per <unit time> is still not good for gaming. you need abilities that are just not broken.

yeah, i missed the once per rest limitation. that still doesn't make the ability fine.

there is almost nothing that can be salvaged from loremaster. almost every single ability is overpowered in some way, many of them in ways that make it impossible to tweak them into a non-broken form. there is no number of times per day that you can let someone crush an encounter under their heel with a single spell that won't cause problems.

[sightlessrealit]

well, good thing there aren't spells that can make that once per encounter affect the *entire* encounter.

oh wait, there are? well, there goes that.

all it takes is a int-based stinking cloud, web, confusion, etc and suddenly "once per encounter" means most of the monsters in the encounter are screwed for the *entire* encounter. especially if there are resources to spare for +2 DC on top of that. the fact that the character picked a spell that doesn't showcase just how broken the ability can be doesn't mean the ability isn't incredibly broken.

furthermore, completely broken OP once per <unit time> is still not good for gaming. you need abilities that are just not broken.

yeah, i missed the once per rest limitation. that still doesn't make the ability fine.

there is almost nothing that can be salvaged from loremaster. almost every single ability is overpowered in some way, many of them in ways that make it impossible to tweak them into a non-broken form. there is no number of times per day that you can let someone crush an encounter under their heel with a single spell that won't cause problems.
Oh really than how about once per 100 long rests?

[Sigreid]

well, good thing there aren't spells that can make that once per encounter affect the *entire* encounter.

oh wait, there are? well, there goes that.

all it takes is a int-based stinking cloud, web, confusion, etc and suddenly "once per encounter" means most of the monsters in the encounter are screwed for the *entire* encounter. especially if there are resources to spare for +2 DC on top of that. the fact that the character picked a spell that doesn't showcase just how broken the ability can be doesn't mean the ability isn't incredibly broken.

furthermore, completely broken OP once per <unit time> is still not good for gaming. you need abilities that are just not broken.

yeah, i missed the once per rest limitation. that still doesn't make the ability fine.

there is almost nothing that can be salvaged from loremaster. almost every single ability is overpowered in some way, many of them in ways that make it impossible to tweak them into a non-broken form. there is no number of times per day that you can let someone crush an encounter under their heel with a single spell that won't cause problems.

I expect even player to get to crush an encounter now and then.

[Malifice]

I expect even player to get to crush an encounter now and then.

My variant of the class is called the Mage (its a generalist Wizard).

It gets to swap a save 1/ long rest.

Its got it in its pocket for when it really needs it. Technically Portent is better (at 2 or 3 uses per long rest), but the Mage can apply it to AoE effects or continuous save spells, so it has its uses where the save alteration is better.

They also get to alter damage type 1/ long rest.

Capstone is concentrate on 2 spells with a combined level of (Wizard/2)


2. Buff the Sorcerer. An easy way to do it is that every two levels, they get an additional spell for free. Just let them learn another. Additionally, get rid of their spell slots, and adopt the Spell Point system from the Dungeon Master's Guide. It basically turns them from a normal caster into a Final Fantasy type caster, with MP. So if you have 25 points, you can cast 5 level 3 spells if you want. It gives them more versatility, which is what the Sorcerer is about; They don't know many spells, but they're supposed to be able to do MORE with those spells. This allows that.

If youre going to buff the sorcerer, dont add spells known to them. Its a unique Achilles heel that should be kept. Instead add sorcery points so they can cast more spells (thats always been their schtick).

Wizards get lots O spells known (and a better selection). Sorcs get to blast more per day, from a smaller list taken from a narrower range.

I personally add (+ Cha) in sorcery points at 5th level, give them all a 13+Dex AC class feature (saving a slot at 1st, and meaning they all effectively get mage armor as a spell known) and give them all eschew materials at 1st and Spell mastery (1 x free 1st and 2nd level spell, just like a Wizard) at 18th level.

[Vogonjeltz]

well, good thing there aren't spells that can make that once per encounter affect the *entire* encounter.

oh wait, there are? well, there goes that.

all it takes is a int-based stinking cloud, web, confusion, etc and suddenly "once per encounter" means most of the monsters in the encounter are screwed for the *entire* encounter. especially if there are resources to spare for +2 DC on top of that. the fact that the character picked a spell that doesn't showcase just how broken the ability can be doesn't mean the ability isn't incredibly broken.

furthermore, completely broken OP once per <unit time> is still not good for gaming. you need abilities that are just not broken.

yeah, i missed the once per rest limitation. that still doesn't make the ability fine.

there is almost nothing that can be salvaged from loremaster. almost every single ability is overpowered in some way, many of them in ways that make it impossible to tweak them into a non-broken form. there is no number of times per day that you can let someone crush an encounter under their heel with a single spell that won't cause problems.

Hogwash.

Being able to change a single save per short rest is no better than giving disadvantage on the save in most cases, and if they guess wrong it actively makes their chances of success worse.

Furthermore, the 6th level abilities (which aren't even online for this particular Wizard) cost precious spell slots. Even at max level we're looking at effectively upcasting some spells by 1 level 4 times per long rest, increasing the range of a spell to something unecessary 3 times per long rest, and making failure occur 10% more often 3 times per long rest.

All at the significant cost of 10 spell slots. If anything, those abilities are extremely weak.

Rogozhin, you have nothing to fear but fear itself. The Lore Wizard is not going to outshine anyone else, if anything they'll be lucky if they aren't albatross around the party's necks.

[SharkForce]

Hogwash.

Being able to change a single save per short rest is no better than giving disadvantage on the save in most cases, and if they guess wrong it actively makes their chances of success worse.

Furthermore, the 6th level abilities (which aren't even online for this particular Wizard) cost precious spell slots. Even at max level we're looking at effectively upcasting some spells by 1 level 4 times per long rest, increasing the range of a spell to something unecessary 3 times per long rest, and making failure occur 10% more often 3 times per long rest.

All at the significant cost of 10 spell slots. If anything, those abilities are extremely weak.

Rogozhin, you have nothing to fear but fear itself. The Lore Wizard is not going to outshine anyone else, if anything they'll be lucky if they aren't albatross around the party's necks.

well, let's list off all the things that can apply a no-save disadvantage on all saves that a spell forces to compare how not-broken this ability supposedly is.







well, there they are. that's all the ways i can think of. feel free to list some off. i mean, i can think of a handful of ways to penalize saves, but they all come with fairly substantial drawbacks... heighten works on one target for one save and costs a heck of a lot more than the loremaster ability to change save attributes. bend luck also costs a non-trivial number of sorcery points and penalizes one saving throw. bane costs your concentration and requires that they first fail a save before you can make future saving throws. are you noticing a pattern yet? penalizing saving throws is powerful. extremely powerful. it is even more powerful as what effectively amounts to a flat bonus to the DC (or penalty to the saving throw, take your pick) because it can actually make it literally impossible to pass the save. furthermore, while advantage changes things the most when your chance of making the roll is about 50%, where it still leaves you a decent chance to make the roll either way, giving a bonus to DC (or penalty to saving throw) is most powerful at the edge where it can leave you with a tiny chance, or no chance at all. not the same thing at all.

so not only is it substantially better in a number of situations (you might take a monster from +5 to -2 fairly easily), but it has lower cost than any of those other ways of penalizing saves; no concentration, no sorcery point or spell slot, no additional actions or setup time.

then we have the other claims... first off, +2d10 force damage is at least equivalent to 2 levels for the best spells. a fireball is +1d6 per level, average 3.5, while +2d10 is average 11, just over 3 times as much. also, it's force damage. never mind just how broken that becomes when applied to magic missile (in that it quadruples the damage the spell deals).

then the range increase, which you are never forced to use unless it is useful, and while the full mile may not often be needed, there are plenty of values much lower than a mile but much higher than the normal spell range where the ability is quite valuable; you may not *need* to hit something a mile away too often, but 600 feet away when they start firing longbows at you? not at all implausible.

and the save DC increase, which can push saves off the d20 roll (especially when combined with your ability to change saving throw attributes). 10% of the time is a meaningless statistic. it can take you from a 10% chance of making a save to a 0% chance of making a save. if you choose your target well, the two abilities combined can fairly easily be a swing of 9 points or more on save DC, and can take a spell from "unreliable" to "literally never fails because there isn't a number higher than 20 on the die for them to roll".

none of these abilities need to be used other than when you want to either, so while yes they aren't unlimited, they sure as hell aren't preventing you from stomping all over an encounter when it is most important to do so.

@ sightlessrealit: that depends. is it an ability that by clever use can take a tough challenge and make it simple every so often but only in the right situation and when the ability is used correctly, or is it an ability where any time you use it will make anything hard into a trivial challenge? if the former, bring it on. those are fine. if the latter, there are problems.

[Vogonjeltz]

well, let's list off all the things that can apply a no-save disadvantage on all saves that a spell forces to compare how not-broken this ability supposedly is.

So what? Spell Secrets can only alter one saving throw as well. At least with Heighten you can use it multiple times per short rest if you were so inclined.

As for the 2d10, again, so what? At best that will function 4 times if you're upcasting Magic Missiles to 2nd and 3rd level then poof, it's over. At low levels we're talking a mild one time increase in damage and ONLY if there are multiple targets (single target we're looking at +0.5 damage on average). Worse, by doing so now you've burned out 8 spell slots and have just one remaining for the day. And in so doing it's pretty much the equivalent of casting burning hands or thunderwave on the targets at the same time as whatever other spell happened. Yes, the damage is compressed into one turn, instead of two...but so what? That's not nearly as good as the abilities that add ability modifier damage to spells.

Range seems pointless even when it could be used. In the very example you give defensive measures are very likely to be a better choice than offensive ones. I can count on no hands the number of times I've seen or heard of an encounter that began at 600+ feet.

And 10% chance of failure is already reliable. Not that the Wizard who is casting has any clue how likely the spell is to work anyway.

As for stomping on an encounter, I'd argue every (sub)class already has the potential to unleash hell on a particular encounter anyway. Lore Wizard is neither different nor special in that regard.

[SharkForce]

So what? Spell Secrets can only alter one saving throw as well. At least with Heighten you can use it multiple times per short rest if you were so inclined.

As for the 2d10, again, so what? At best that will function 4 times if you're upcasting Magic Missiles to 2nd and 3rd level then poof, it's over. At low levels we're talking a mild one time increase in damage and ONLY if there are multiple targets (single target we're looking at +0.5 damage on average). Worse, by doing so now you've burned out 8 spell slots and have just one remaining for the day. And in so doing it's pretty much the equivalent of casting burning hands or thunderwave on the targets at the same time as whatever other spell happened. Yes, the damage is compressed into one turn, instead of two...but so what? That's not nearly as good as the abilities that add ability modifier damage to spells.

Range seems pointless even when it could be used. In the very example you give defensive measures are very likely to be a better choice than offensive ones. I can count on no hands the number of times I've seen or heard of an encounter that began at 600+ feet.

And 10% chance of failure is already reliable. Not that the Wizard who is casting has any clue how likely the spell is to work anyway.

As for stomping on an encounter, I'd argue every (sub)class already has the potential to unleash hell on a particular encounter anyway. Lore Wizard is neither different nor special in that regard.

heighten works on ONE saving throw that ONE creature makes. spell secrets works on every saving throw from whatever spell you choose. this is not remotely close to being the same thing.

as for the 2d10, first off it more than quadruples the damage of magic missile. it is +2d10 per missile because of how the spell works; you have one damage roll that works on every missile. that isn't "so what", that is *insane*. if i proposed a 4/day quadruple the damage you deal per round feat, i would hope people would have the good sense to tell me it is overpowered. even for something like boosting a fireball, which is *comparatively* reasonable (but still not reasonable), where your level 1 spell slot now becomes a spell that deals 2d10 force damage in a huge area at range without costing an action. you wanna take a guess at how balanced a level 1 spell with no action cost that deals that much damage in that large of an area would be? i'll give you a hint: it would make every other level 1 spell look like crap. and for the record, assuming it doesn't cost increased resources, nova damage is always better than damage over time. in this case, not only is the nova not costing extra, you're actually getting *increased* value out of that level 1 spell slot.

as to range being pointless. you can shoot one mile. your enemy cannot. that means that *they* need to come to *you*. they need to abandon their position and come to the position that you have chosen, or they just slowly die. unless you literally spend all your time in dungeons, it is hard to comprehend how you can fail to see the potential here. there's a cult holed up in a keep somewhere? well guess what, you can just destroy the whole damn thing from a mile away, and the cultists can either decide to leave their favourable terrain and attack you while you're in your own favourable terrain (an hour or so with the right cantrips can easily give you extremely favourable terrain if you have the slightest idea what you're doing), abandon their keep entirely, or be slowly sieged to death. heck, you can even just fly over them and rain down death. not much they can do to stop it with a 1 mile advantage... even if they have anything that can fly, you get to kill it while it is still trying to even get remotely close to being in range to do anything at all to you. and while you might not always have the full mile, the simple fact of the matter is this: if i outrange you, i get to pick where we fight. it's as simple as that. i get to have cover, you don't. i get to have traps set up, you don't. i get to lay an ambush, you don't. range. is. power.

as to the spell slot cost being super limited, wizards have a built-in method of recovering spell slots, and it works *amazingly* for low level spell slots especially. it isn't infinite. but it *is* going to substantially extend whatever it is the wizard wants to do.

10% chance of failure is pretty reliable. until you've got 15 creatures that all get to make a save every round. then it's not so reliable. in any event, it is quite literally infinitely less reliable than a 0% chance of failure.

and there is a difference between unleashing hell, and being the only person in the encounter that really mattered. apparently you've forgotten what 3.x D&D looked like, because you are essentially saying it's perfectly fine for the wizard to be tier 1 while other classes are tier 3, 4, or 5, and that it does not impact play meaningfully. a 5e fighter can do some pretty amazing things to a single encounter, but they don't trivialize encounters that would be a challenge for the entire party under normal circumstances. you don't need to redesign the entire game to account for a battlemaster or an oath of vengeance paladin or a moon druid. you could certainly expect them to do well in certain challenges, but not in almost every combat imaginable. a loremaster wizard, on the other hand, can crush in danged near any combat challenge (and is still a wizard, making them fairly strong in every other kind of challenge) unless it involves legendary resistances (and maybe even then). it basically leaves the most valuable skills any other character can bring to the table being:

1) finish off anything the loremaster wizard leaves lying helpless on the floor for you to slaughter without challenge.
2) make legendary monsters use their legendary resistance so that the loremaster can leave them lying helpless on the floor, so that you can go back to using the first skill.

it's like epic quests in DDO used to be... you would bring along someone who could cast mass hold monster with a high enough DC that even making a new saving throw every 2 seconds, the monsters would be trapped for the 10 seconds or so the other 5 random mooks you brought along to crit the monsters down would need to slaughter all the helpless monsters, and you honestly didn't truly care who the other 5 mooks were because all they needed were a couple of half-decent non-unique weapons that you could buy from the auction house for next to no gold and they were good enough (bonus to hit didn't matter, mass hold monster granted autocrits). the wizard spamming mass hold monster needed to be decked out in the best-in-slot equipment for just about every slot, and that was the only thing you cared about; is the wizard good enough to completely lock down every fight? if so, grab any 5 other level 20s (can't get into epics if you're not level 20) and you now have a team capable of completing an epic difficulty quest. and boy, was it ever boring as hell being one of those 5 other guys, because your entire job was to walk up to things and hold down the mouse button, and wow was it ever depressing to realize just how irrelevant it was who you brought to the quest if you weren't that wizard.

no class should be that powerful compared to the others, and loremaster wizard played to it's fullest potential can be. that's a problem.

[Vogonjeltz]

as for the 2d10, first off it more than quadruples the damage of magic missile. it is +2d10 per missile because of how the spell works; you have one damage roll that works on every missile. that isn't "so what", that is *insane*. if i proposed a 4/day quadruple the damage you deal per round feat, i would hope people would have the good sense to tell me it is overpowered. even for something like boosting a fireball, which is *comparatively* reasonable (but still not reasonable), where your level 1 spell slot now becomes a spell that deals 2d10 force damage in a huge area at range without costing an action. you wanna take a guess at how balanced a level 1 spell with no action cost that deals that much damage in that large of an area would be? i'll give you a hint: it would make every other level 1 spell look like crap. and for the record, assuming it doesn't cost increased resources, nova damage is always better than damage over time. in this case, not only is the nova not costing extra, you're actually getting *increased* value out of that level 1 spell slot.

Quadruple damage is more than a little misleading as it depends on the damage being incredibly low to begin with, it's double damage on your j-average 1st level spell aoe, and less than average on single target spells.

So, yes, you've found the only viable use of that ability, and it turns out it's no better than casting an aoe. That's a less than useful class feature. And, if you want to compare efficiency of spell slot use, a Sorcerer could convert that 1st level slot into extended spell for an extra 10 rounds of 6d8 (3d8 save) line aoe for up to 60d8 damage on a single target. Against those 4 targets? +240d8 damage.


as to range being pointless. you can shoot one mile. your enemy cannot. that means that *they* need to come to *you*. they need to abandon their position and come to the position that you have chosen, or they just slowly die. unless you literally spend all your time in dungeons, it is hard to comprehend how you can fail to see the potential here. there's a cult holed up in a keep somewhere? well guess what, you can just destroy the whole damn thing from a mile away, and the cultists can either decide to leave their favourable terrain and attack you while you're in your own favourable terrain (an hour or so with the right cantrips can easily give you extremely favourable terrain if you have the slightest idea what you're doing), abandon their keep entirely, or be slowly sieged to death. heck, you can even just fly over them and rain down death. not much they can do to stop it with a 1 mile advantage... even if they have anything that can fly, you get to kill it while it is still trying to even get remotely close to being in range to do anything at all to you. and while you might not always have the full mile, the simple fact of the matter is this: if i outrange you, i get to pick where we fight. it's as simple as that. i get to have cover, you don't. i get to have traps set up, you don't. i get to lay an ambush, you don't. range. is. power.

as to the spell slot cost being super limited, wizards have a built-in method of recovering spell slots, and it works *amazingly* for low level spell slots especially. it isn't infinite. but it *is* going to substantially extend whatever it is the wizard wants to do.

One mile sight lines are about as common as unicorns. Clouds, trees and other vegetation, changes in terrain height, they're pretty amazing at breaking line of sight up even from the air. Heck, maybe even especially from the air, tree canopies are going to provide total ground cover.

With only 3 uses per day I find it unlikely the Cultists have anything to be concerned over. Using the recovery ability nets at best 6 per day, assuming at least a 12th level caster. Of course, then they aren't really getting the additional spell castings that other Wizards would have.


10% chance of failure is pretty reliable. until you've got 15 creatures that all get to make a save every round. then it's not so reliable. in any event, it is quite literally infinitely less reliable than a 0% chance of failure.

15+ would have to be all mooks to not have a deadly fight. If they're mooks, it generally doesn't matter if they pass the save, they're still going down. Also, what spell targets 15 enemies and gives a save every round?


and there is a difference between unleashing hell, and being the only person in the encounter that really mattered. apparently you've forgotten what 3.x D&D looked like, because you are essentially saying it's perfectly fine for the wizard to be tier 1 while other classes are tier 3, 4, or 5, and that it does not impact play meaningfully. a 5e fighter can do some pretty amazing things to a single encounter, but they don't trivialize encounters that would be a challenge for the entire party under normal circumstances. you don't need to redesign the entire game to account for a battlemaster or an oath of vengeance paladin or a moon druid. you could certainly expect them to do well in certain challenges, but not in almost every combat imaginable. a loremaster wizard, on the other hand, can crush in danged near any combat challenge (and is still a wizard, making them fairly strong in every other kind of challenge) unless it involves legendary resistances (and maybe even then). it basically leaves the most valuable skills any other character can bring to the table being:

These features are a far cry from elevating the Wizard in 5e to even parity with the Fighter in combat scenarios. They drain the Wizard's already limited resources at double the rate and in return provide mild or borderline worthless effects. Wizards continue to have garbage action economy and all the durability of a wet tissue.

A single spell will not trivialize even an Easy encounter.

[SharkForce]

Quadruple damage is more than a little misleading as it depends on the damage being incredibly low to begin with, it's double damage on your j-average 1st level spell aoe, and less than average on single target spells.

So, yes, you've found the only viable use of that ability, and it turns out it's no better than casting an aoe. That's a less than useful class feature. And, if you want to compare efficiency of spell slot use, a Sorcerer could convert that 1st level slot into extended spell for an extra 10 rounds of 6d8 (3d8 save) line aoe for up to 60d8 damage on a single target. Against those 4 targets? +240d8 damage.



One mile sight lines are about as common as unicorns. Clouds, trees and other vegetation, changes in terrain height, they're pretty amazing at breaking line of sight up even from the air. Heck, maybe even especially from the air, tree canopies are going to provide total ground cover.

With only 3 uses per day I find it unlikely the Cultists have anything to be concerned over. Using the recovery ability nets at best 6 per day, assuming at least a 12th level caster. Of course, then they aren't really getting the additional spell castings that other Wizards would have.



15+ would have to be all mooks to not have a deadly fight. If they're mooks, it generally doesn't matter if they pass the save, they're still going down. Also, what spell targets 15 enemies and gives a save every round?



These features are a far cry from elevating the Wizard in 5e to even parity with the Fighter in combat scenarios. They drain the Wizard's already limited resources at double the rate and in return provide mild or borderline worthless effects. Wizards continue to have garbage action economy and all the durability of a wet tissue.

A single spell will not trivialize even an Easy encounter.

chromatic orb, a fairly average level 1 spell, deals 3d8 (average 13.5) damage, but requires an attack roll. magic missile deals 3d4+3 (average 7.5) damage with no attack roll. when you factor in the attack roll, magic missile is probably slightly less on average... but not by much. until, of course, you add 2d10 to every missile and quadruple it.

and no, it isn't the only viable use. 2d10 damage with no action cost in a fireball AoE is a completely broken first level spell. nothing comes even remotely close. it is absurdly overpowered on magic missile, but it is hardly the only viable use. the "reasonable" use of it is also broken OP, magic missile is just more absurd than other spells.

with 3 (or 6) uses per day, the cultists have plenty to worry about, because that's 6 spells you're dropping on them which they cannot retaliate against per day. no, you aren't going to clear the whole keep today (probably). but you pick off 6 cultists per day and it isn't going to be long before there aren't many cultists left. if you get to use AoE damage and pick off far more than 6 per day, and it gets even worse.

15+ mooks are plenty dangerous. it's the entire reason spells like animate objects and conjure animals bring a lot of power to the caster.

and your inability to recognize what such massive save manipulation capabilities can do to a fight is not my problem. we have a very good example of what happens when wizards can cast spells that are nearly impossible to save against. it looks like 3.x D&D, because that's one of the key reasons why fighters were so low tier; sure they could do some things (well, really only one thing, and even that they had to be optimized for), but it was largely irrelevant. who cares if you're decent at damage-dealing, the wizard already won the fight before you even swung your sword once, and your damage wasn't necessary. putting monsters up against DC 18 saves while using their weakest attribute can easily make it impossible for many of them to make the saving throw, never mind when the DC becomes 20 or 21 at higher levels. all we have to do is imagine how that would look like against most PCs, since the situation is basically the same; most PCs will have one or two really good saves, probably a third and maybe a fourth that are mediocre, and then probably have a +0 or even -1 in the other two.

amd the ability to usefully spend those level 1-3 spell slots to boost their most powerful spells gets even stronger as the wizard levels up.

[Vogonjeltz]

chromatic orb, a fairly average level 1 spell, deals 3d8 (average 13.5) damage, but requires an attack roll. magic missile deals 3d4+3 (average 7.5) damage with no attack roll. when you factor in the attack roll, magic missile is probably slightly less on average... but not by much. until, of course, you add 2d10 to every missile and quadruple it.

and no, it isn't the only viable use. 2d10 damage with no action cost in a fireball AoE is a completely broken first level spell. nothing comes even remotely close. it is absurdly overpowered on magic missile, but it is hardly the only viable use. the "reasonable" use of it is also broken OP, magic missile is just more absurd than other spells.

with 3 (or 6) uses per day, the cultists have plenty to worry about, because that's 6 spells you're dropping on them which they cannot retaliate against per day. no, you aren't going to clear the whole keep today (probably). but you pick off 6 cultists per day and it isn't going to be long before there aren't many cultists left. if you get to use AoE damage and pick off far more than 6 per day, and it gets even worse.

15+ mooks are plenty dangerous. it's the entire reason spells like animate objects and conjure animals bring a lot of power to the caster.

and your inability to recognize what such massive save manipulation capabilities can do to a fight is not my problem. we have a very good example of what happens when wizards can cast spells that are nearly impossible to save against. it looks like 3.x D&D, because that's one of the key reasons why fighters were so low tier; sure they could do some things (well, really only one thing, and even that they had to be optimized for), but it was largely irrelevant. who cares if you're decent at damage-dealing, the wizard already won the fight before you even swung your sword once, and your damage wasn't necessary. putting monsters up against DC 18 saves while using their weakest attribute can easily make it impossible for many of them to make the saving throw, never mind when the DC becomes 20 or 21 at higher levels. all we have to do is imagine how that would look like against most PCs, since the situation is basically the same; most PCs will have one or two really good saves, probably a third and maybe a fourth that are mediocre, and then probably have a +0 or even -1 in the other two.

amd the ability to usefully spend those level 1-3 spell slots to boost their most powerful spells gets even stronger as the wizard levels up.

The point is that the expenditure of the slot renders little more (and sometimes less) benefit than actually using it to cast a spell.

And with the 6 spells that Wizard has blown their resources and there would be no reason at all for the Cult not to hunt them down at that point.

[joaber]

heighten works on ONE saving throw that ONE creature makes. spell secrets works on every saving throw from whatever spell you choose. this is not remotely close to being the same thing.

Hmm, how I read the "when you cast a spell..." looks like only work in the save when you cast it. Don't see way would work in the saves for free.

Still really powerful ability

[Malifice]

Who the hell is allowing the +2d10 force damage on every missile with magic missile?

If you cant see the intent of that ability is 'add 2d10 damage once' put down your books and stop playing DnD.

[Jerrykhor]

Who the hell is allowing the +2d10 force damage on every missile with magic missile?

If you cant see the intent of that ability is 'add 2d10 damage once' put down your books and stop playing DnD.

Exact wording:

If you roll damage for the spell when you cast it, increase the damage against every target by 2d10 force damage.

So if MM spreads out its missles to hit a target with each missile, each missile would have +2d10 damage. If the missiles focus on 1 target, it would simply total all the +2d10s from each missile to that target.

This ability would be quite balanced on me, possibly even underpowered, considering how bad my luck with d10s are. Even my DM laughs at me on d10 rolls.

Who knows what the intent is? Maybe its to make Lore Wizards the best wizards evar? Because it sure looks like it.

[Malifice]

Exact wording:

If you roll damage for the spell when you cast it, increase the damage against every target by 2d10 force damage.

So if MM spreads out its missles to hit a target with each missile, each missile would have +2d10 damage. If the missiles focus on 1 target, it would simply total all the +2d10s from each missile to that target.

This ability would be quite balanced on me, possibly even underpowered, considering how bad my luck with d10s are. Even my DM laughs at me on d10 rolls.

Who knows what the intent is? Maybe its to make Lore Wizards the best wizards evar? Because it sure looks like it.

I know what the wording is, but that's clearly not the intent. Its a common problem they run into when they have these +X damage to a spell abilities (some spells deal AoE damage, some are single target, some allow multiple targets or choice etc). It produces wildy different, fiddly and confusing results.

The ability should let dice upscale by one step to a maximum of d12 for mine. That creates a far more balanced and predictable damage buff without these strange interactions with other spells.

[SharkForce]

I know what the wording is, but that's clearly not the intent. Its a common problem they run into when they have these +X damage to a spell abilities (some spells deal AoE damage, some are single target, some allow multiple targets or choice etc). It produces wildy different, fiddly and confusing results.

The ability should let dice upscale by one step to a maximum of d12 for mine. That creates a far more balanced and predictable damage buff without these strange interactions with other spells.

no, it gets even worse than what you think.

the "official" RAW on magic missile is that you roll damage once, and that is the damage of every missile.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/17/magic-missile-do-you-roll-the-same-d4-for-all-darts/

now, he does make the note there that you're free to change it. but officially, you roll damage once and that's how much each missile does.

(yes, that is silly, and i've never played with anyone who uses that rule... but it is also the basis for why evocation wizards get to add their int modifier to each missile, which is not particularly less silly).

that said, there is a clarification that this is not intended to be how the alchemical ability works. though that still leaves it as being intended to be able to just tack on a zero-action-cost 1st level spell that does 2d10 force damage after casting any aoe spell, which is still completely ridiculous for a level 1 spell.

[Foxydono]

So... yes. I'm dumb. I not only let someone play a lore wizard in my campaign, but actively encouraged it. I am a first time DM and was blind to the crazy overpoweredness of it. Also i had said NO to some other character things they wanted to do and it got so nicely with their backstory (a very powerful wizard at the end of their life who managed to re-youthify their body... but ended up in a different plane. Instead of learning spells he is remembering them).

To make matters worse one of the other characters is a sorcerer... so in addition to having trouble balancing encounters their is another character's toes that might get trampled.

Any suggestions on how to balance this out? Fair ways to handicap my wizard to counter his absurd abilities? Ways to boost my other party members to get them up to the same level?
There are two potential problems you are addressing.
1: Do you might have a problem with the wizard being OP.
2: The other player might not like having a less powerful character.

To start with the second problem. I would simply ask him or her whether he or she minds the other player plays a slightly 'better' character. If not then it is nothing to worry about. If in a later stage it does become a problem I would give the other player a magic item to balance it out.

The first problem depends on how comfortable you are with it. I often play a lot of OP characters and I can tell you that I still die almost every single session. And I mean way more OP than a lore wizard. Like having 30 permanent ac at lvl 9. It does not matter for the DM. My experience is that if a party is really strong they seak out stronger enemies and this balances itself out. So my advice would be to just let it play out and see how it goes. As long as the other players don't mind of course. If that is the case you simply have to talk to the pc and tell him the truth and ask him to choose another archtype.

[Jerrykhor]

no, it gets even worse than what you think.

the "official" RAW on magic missile is that you roll damage once, and that is the damage of every missile.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/17/magic-missile-do-you-roll-the-same-d4-for-all-darts/

now, he does make the note there that you're free to change it. but officially, you roll damage once and that's how much each missile does.

(yes, that is silly, and i've never played with anyone who uses that rule... but it is also the basis for why evocation wizards get to add their int modifier to each missile, which is not particularly less silly).

that said, there is a clarification that this is not intended to be how the alchemical ability works. though that still leaves it as being intended to be able to just tack on a zero-action-cost 1st level spell that does 2d10 force damage after casting any aoe spell, which is still completely ridiculous for a level 1 spell.

Its not silly, it makes sense that if you cast a spell that shoots multiple missiles, they all do the same damage. If the spell is empowered, all missiles get empowered. Not 'Only 1 stupid missile gets empowered because I got hit with a nerf bat, otherwise all the crybabies would scream OP'.

[SharkForce]

Its not silly, it makes sense that if you cast a spell that shoots multiple missiles, they all do the same damage. If the spell is empowered, all missiles get empowered. Not 'Only 1 stupid missile gets empowered because I got hit with a nerf bat, otherwise all the crybabies would scream OP'.

and yet every other spell that shoots multiple missiles doesn't work the same. only magic missile has you roll 1d4+1 (or, if you're an evocation wizard, 1d4+1+int mod) and multiply it by the number of missiles.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The wording is pretty clearly once/target, meaning that volleying Magic Missiles or Scorching Rays against a single target doesn't actually help. The specific wording here would trump the more general Sage Advice ruling.

And... come on, spell damage generally stinks. AoEs are okay, if you're fighting lots of weak dudes you'd probably stomp all over anyway; burning spell slots for a bit more damage is not a big issue. It's 2-3 times as good as the Evocation Wizard ability, but it's only useable a small fraction of the time-- more nova, less sustainable, that's how this edition is balanced. And it's not like "I deal a bit more HP damage" has ever been an issue. It's literally the last thing worth complaining about, long after major things like "this isn't fun" or "this distorts the action economy" or "this easily bypasses major challenges."

And +2 DC for a third level slot? Meh. For the same price you could cast something like Stinking Cloud, Fly, or Fireball and have another shot at winning the fight right there. You're spending a significant, encounter-changing resource to get a reasonably significant result. As Vogonjeltz noted, if your spell only had a 10% chance of failing, you were pretty much already going to win that fight-- spending a 3rd level spell to maybe knock out one or two extra mooks is probably not worth it. (Also... do natural 1s and 20s still auto-pass/fail saves? That used to be the case...)

[SharkForce]

The wording is pretty clearly once/target, meaning that volleying Magic Missiles or Scorching Rays against a single target doesn't actually help. The specific wording here would trump the more general Sage Advice ruling.

And... come on, spell damage generally stinks. AoEs are okay, if you're fighting lots of weak dudes you'd probably stomp all over anyway; burning spell slots for a bit more damage is not a big issue. It's 2-3 times as good as the Evocation Wizard ability, but it's only useable a small fraction of the time-- more nova, less sustainable, that's how this edition is balanced. And it's not like "I deal a bit more HP damage" has ever been an issue. It's literally the last thing worth complaining about, long after major things like "this isn't fun" or "this distorts the action economy" or "this easily bypasses major challenges."

And +2 DC for a third level slot? Meh. For the same price you could cast something like Stinking Cloud, Fly, or Fireball and have another shot at winning the fight right there. You're spending a significant, encounter-changing resource to get a reasonably significant result. As Vogonjeltz noted, if your spell only had a 10% chance of failing, you were pretty much already going to win that fight-- spending a 3rd level spell to maybe knock out one or two extra mooks is probably not worth it. (Also... do natural 1s and 20s still auto-pass/fail saves? That used to be the case...)

damage isn't amazing... some of the time. some of the time, it is. since nothing is forcing you to use the ability when damage isn't useful, it's a very strong ability, because it gives you a far better return on your investment than any other similar way of spending that resource.

and yes, there is a rather substantial difference between 0% to save and 10% to save. 0% to save means you can actually use dominate spells in combat with impunity. 0% to save means you can guarantee flesh to stone will work and you can just walk away. 0% to save means that if you or anyone else can keep a target in a certain location (like with a grapple, or if it's a small room), they will never get an action thanks to stinking cloud, no matter how many times they get to make a save (for obvious reasons, some source of immunity to poison is recommended, or at least very impressive saves, since you acting half the time is still going to easily win against someone who doesn't act at all). it means that an enemy hit with fear or confusion will not be breaking free early no matter what. it means you can leave a target hit by hold person to the end of a fight (or several targets hit by hold person) instead of needing to finish them off immediately before they are able to save after a few tries. it means that when you use mass suggestion on a group, there isn't one of them that can make the save and tell everyone else you cast a spell on them when the effect wears off (or tell others, or get someone to dispel the effect, etc). it means that calm emotions can end a fight instead of almost ending a fight consistently. it means that you literally get to fight enemies one at a time when you use hypnotic pattern, instead of one enemy potentially being able to wake up more. it means that instead of one or two enemy messengers having a chance of escaping from a web or similar, none will escape, and as a result they can't warn anyone or get a message through, period.

those are some pretty big differences if you ask me. i get that it sounds small, but when you have groups of enemies making saves, it works out to be pretty big.

(and natural 1 or 20 has no special meaning on saving throws, only on attack rolls in 5e).