DM help! So one of my players wants to betray the party and become a Lich

[crustythesailor]

When he approached me i was surprised and giddy, such a juicy plot twist, my players are nearing the end of the campaign to destroy a Lich, they have his phylactery and are ready to destroy it and face him, and one of players is a sorcerer who wants to help destroy the lich and become one himself and destroy the party...how can i do this, not many rules out there for pc liches...please help me make this a story to remember!

[ThurlRavenscrof]

I don't have the answer for you but I have 3 obstacles to keep in mind:
1: Knowing how to become a lich is super hard... your player's character wouldn't know just from killing one. They would have to find the lich's notes or something at the very least
2: The PC will have to do an "arcane ritual" to trap their soul to the phylactery. It's not described more than that but I imagine it would be pretty noticeable so the PC would have to find a way to do it in secret or deceive the party into thinking it was a different ritual
3: The PC must drink a "potion of transformation" which kills them and turns them into a lich. So your PC would have to get that potion somehow

Sounds like a cool twist!

[DivisibleByZero]

and one of players is a sorcerer who wants to help destroy the lich and become one himself so the party can destroy him as well...

Fixed it for you. That's how to make it memorable. Closing the campaign with one player betraying and TPKing the rest of the party is not how you properly end a campaign if you want players to return for the next one.
Let the PC do it, but give the party a McGuffin of some sort to vanquish him as well.

[Maxilian]

Fixed it for you. That's how to make it memorable. Closing the campaign with one player betraying and TPKing the rest of the party is not how you properly end a campaign if you want players to return for the next one.
Let the PC do it, but give the party a McGuffin of some sort to vanquish him as well.

Well i guess he will become a new BBEG, but that does not mean that the party is going to be able to beat them (they could lose and become minions ), but either way, its going to be an interesting boss fight.

Note: Also he said he want, does not mean that's how everything is going to end.

[Honest Tiefling]

So...Why does he want to destroy the party? I'd like to point out that your average virgin/goat is going to have fewer class levels. And if the party is neutrally or evilly inclined, it does sometimes helps to have friends.

[GPS]

So...Why does he want to destroy the party? I'd like to point out that your average virgin/goat is going to have fewer class levels. And if the party is neutrally or evilly inclined, it does sometimes helps to have friends.
Yeah, and doesn't it initially require an innocent soul in 5e? PC's are usually anything but.

[Sabeta]

Regardless of the actual process, let's say the PC has a way of becoming a lich that doesn't by extension automatically result in the deaths of the remaining heroes.

Scenario A) The players fight him, and he dies. Oops, should have picked a better moment.
Scenario B) The players fight him, and they die...but not quite! As it turns out adjusting to your new lich powers caused you to not kill them like you wanted. The PCs get up after a while, and a new arc is kicked off where they hunt the new Lich down and kill him too. (Most likely handled in the form of retiring the Lich player and letting him roll a new PC to join them)

[Zanthy1]

Regardless of the actual process, let's say the PC has a way of becoming a lich that doesn't by extension automatically result in the deaths of the remaining heroes.

Scenario A) The players fight him, and he dies. Oops, should have picked a better moment.
Scenario B) The players fight him, and they die...but not quite! As it turns out adjusting to your new lich powers caused you to not kill them like you wanted. The PCs get up after a while, and a new arc is kicked off where they hunt the new Lich down and kill him too. (Most likely handled in the form of retiring the Lich player and letting him roll a new PC to join them)

The ending of Scenario B. Anytime one of my players gets the idea that they can betray the party, I always inform them that doing so will result in the character turning into an NPC. I've had it go down like that once, but most of the time they decide against going that route.

The key is finding the motivation why they would betray the group. A lot of times my players who have come up with the idea wan to just cause, which I won't allow. Very rarely, after so much adventuring together, os there actually a reason for the betrayal. Essentially, if they were not planning on betraying the party from the beginning, it will fizzle out.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anytime one of my players gets the idea that they can betray the party, I always inform them that doing so will result in the character turning into an NPC.
Yeah, if the PC wants the DM in on it, I find this the way to go.

That said, the "betray the party" move that even the DM does not know about can be an interesting twist depending on the table, since the PC has to risk some PvP from the other PC's.

In this case, since the DM controls "how does one turn into a lich as a PC" that may not be possible.

Question for the OP: can you explain to me, in the social sense, why you are open to you and one other player screwing the other players? Is your table/group of gaming friends normally OK with doing that to each other? (Some groups are like that ...)

[D.U.P.A.]

Becoming a powerful lich is not an instant process. Since the campaign is going towards the end, maybe that player could be the next DM having his character the main villain in his campaign.

[jaappleton]

First, what's the process to become a Lich? Is it instant?

Second, write up the stats of being a Lich, whatever you were going to use for the BBEG. Then modify it based on the spells the Sorcerer has.

Then, if he succeeds in becoming a Lich, hand him the stat sheet of the modified Lich and sit back. Crack a beer and watch.

[MadBear]

I'd just recommend treading these waters carefully. You know your players way better then any of us, but a group betrayal that allows a player to essentially kill off the other players without foreknowledge has the potential for a lot of hurt feelings.

I'm not trying to say don't do it, but it's definitely going to be a balancing act. One thing to consider, is that as a DM you try and balance how the world responds to the PC so that they always have a chance (as long as they make smart decisions). I'm guessing that during a betrayal scenario, the cards are going to be completely stacked against them in such a way that they'll could feel their agency is taken away if not done right.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

Betrayal in a party can be a disaster. I had it happen in my party but it actually worked out great because everyone agreed on it. The PC Told the DM and they worked out a plot together. The reason the rest of the party liked it was that we all agreed it was what his character would do; he had a cursed magical item that made him betray people and promises and we all knew that. We had rp scenes before the betrayal trying to get to the bottom of his weird behavior.
When he did fight us, the DM let our party realize he was cursed by the magical item. Our healer grappled him and cast greater restoration on him.
It was only fun because we were all in on it together.

[Beelzebubba]

Man, this has so many ways it can go wrong.

Please post the thread afterwards where everyone else hates you two and leaves the game. :smallbiggrin:

[RedMage125]

Since you said this is campaign end, why not just have this happen in denouement? When the party destroys the lich, the sorcerer helps himself to the lich's library. Give everyone some good epilogue storytelling, and when it rolls back around to the sorcerer, say he disappeared, and his old companions feared that he had become a lich himself.

There is absolutely no reason for this to devolve into pvp, or to do the transformation instantly. This could just be some good sotrytelling.

[jaappleton]

Man, this has so many ways it can go wrong.

Please post the thread afterwards where everyone else hates you two and leaves the game. :smallbiggrin:

Very presumptuous of you to assume his table can't handle that sort of that. I've been part of quite a few tables that would celebrate it.

[Lombra]

It would be cool if somehow the sorcerer is doing the ritual in the downtime, gathering the material for the potion and other things, then, upon the defeat of the actual lich, he manages to gather the negative energy of his corrupted soul, the last ingredient that he needed to complete his custom lich ritual, but things don't go quiet the way he planned...

To you the rest of the imagination process ;)

[Sigreid]

Eh, invent a ritual. It should be possible for the group to figure out he's up to something. Let him plot and plan. See if the party figures it out. End the campaign dramatically.

[Beelzebubba]

Very presumptuous of you to assume his table can't handle that sort of that. I've been part of quite a few tables that would celebrate it.

Good for you! Now pull the stick out of your butt, learn to see a smiley and realize there's something going on rather than absolute seriousness.

[Alejandro]

When he approached me i was surprised and giddy, such a juicy plot twist, my players are nearing the end of the campaign to destroy a Lich, they have his phylactery and are ready to destroy it and face him, and one of players is a sorcerer who wants to help destroy the lich and become one himself and destroy the party...how can i do this, not many rules out there for pc liches...please help me make this a story to remember!

Becoming a lich takes a long time. The PC will need to craft a phylactery of their own, have all the notes and methods and rituals required, and then have the time, privacy, and materials to cast the series of spells, etc, *and* they aren't usually guaranteed to survive the process.

It's not a spell that you just cast and turn into a lich. It's almost like crafting a legendary magic item, except your life force and phylactery are the item.

If the party already has the enemy lich's phylactery, your player isn't actually being that smart. If he or she was, they would contact the lich and offer to exchange the phylactery for full knowledge on how to become a lich themselves. Of course, the lich may or may not keep their end of the deal. They do, however, absolutely want their phylactery back, and may do just about anything to get it.

Assuming they did that, they've horrifically betrayed their party members, and should probably retire the PC and play something else. Maybe the PC goes off to begin their own lich process.

[Vogonjeltz]

When he approached me i was surprised and giddy, such a juicy plot twist, my players are nearing the end of the campaign to destroy a Lich, they have his phylactery and are ready to destroy it and face him, and one of players is a sorcerer who wants to help destroy the lich and become one himself and destroy the party...how can i do this, not many rules out there for pc liches...please help me make this a story to remember!

For starters, I'd advise that the characters alignment should be shifted to some kind of evil if it isn't already. Being willing to undergo the process of becoming a lich requires evil in ones heart.


Yeah, and doesn't it initially require an innocent soul in 5e? PC's are usually anything but.

No, just a potion made from the blood of a sentient creature whose soul is sacrificed to the phylactery mixed with a vile concoction of poison.

Not like that's any better.

[MadBear]

So this is from another thread, but I think it's super relevant here and could possibly be applied to this situation.


When players try to interact - in any way - with NPCs, I try not to control the PC's behavior in any way, and allow even essential NPCs to be messed with, hurt, or even killed.

When players interact with other players, the relevant players must agree on how they'd like to resolve the activity. Player-player conflict is NOT allowed in my games, but PC - PC conflict is encouraged as long as everyone's having fun.

For example, if one of my player's declares that his character attacks another player's character, player #2 decides how to resolve the attack. They might decide that it hits, that it misses, or that they'd like to let the dice decide. Either way, players don't get to exert in-game power over the other players IRL. That's just a ****ty environment for everyone, and it's not what D&D is about.

Similarly, if a player declares that his character attempts to steal from another player's character, the latter player decides how to resolve the activity. Maybe they declare that their character catches the first one, that they don't notice, or they call for an opposed check; whatever they think will be most fun.

Typically though, I want players to agree on in-game conflict before it actually gets to the point where they're declaring hostile actions against one another.

Sometimes inter-party conflict can be fun, but by giving everyone the power to decide how their characters are affected by other player's characters, I prevent people from ruining other's fun.

Basically, you don't get to mess with another PC without them being in on it as well. So rather than navigate the messy waters of having the PC either kill off the whole party unexpectedly, or having him just get killed trying. What if you waited until the end of the campaign and just said:

"Dave's character wants to become a lich to end his characters story line. Since this is the end of this campaign, would any of you be ok with Dave's character betraying and sacrificing your characters soul to become a lich himself. Anyone that remains could then be part of our next campaign where Dave's lich is the new big bad. If anyone agree's I'll allow you to roll up a new character of equal level for the start of the next campaign".

Either:
a. They all agree, and you can narrate Dave betraying and sacrificing the whole party to become this new powerful lich
b. at least 1 agrees, and you can narrate how Dave's character was able to become a lich while sacrificing one of his former friends. You can then ask the other players to narrate how they avoided Dave's betrayal, and see what what they want to do next. Who knows, maybe one of them wants to be Daves body guard, and helped in the betrayal.
c. No one agrees outright, but maybe they'd be ok rolling for it. In which case, que the betrayal scene at let the dice fall where they may.
d. No one agrees, in which case, was this ever really going to end well? If no one wants to see their character just get killed off and no one wants to roll for it, this was doomed to end poorly.

[Dappershire]

You have the perfect set up. They are about to destroy the phylactery, right? Well, as a Sorcerer, he is either identifying such things for the party, or has the mojo to confuse whichever party member is doing so (cleric, wizard, whatever). So why don't you have them destroy some random evil knick knack, while the sorcerer hides the real phylactery on him. Maybe have it communicate with him. Guide him.
After all, he just saved the Lich from destruction. It can spend a few months preparing the lad for transformation before returning to a body and getting away from them. No need for the other players to even be aware of this. The "studying" would be during his long rests.
Now start the next campaign. About halfway through, let the party save a bunch of innocents. Children kidnapped from the village by a hag. Virgins enroute to a local Dragon. Noble blood to be spilt for a demi-deity's grasp for further ascension. It can be anything really.

But, and this is important, have the player say he has to leave the game an hour early. Nothing important, just stuff to do. So offer to let the Sorcerer take the innocents "back to town" while the rest of the party does a rest, and pushes forward towards whatever BBEG is this months flavor. Let them get -just- barely into the fight, when you end the session.
Next session, have the Sorcerer, all hooded and butt kicking, enter the fight after everyone else's turn. Engage as normal. Until the BBEG goes down.
Then, as everyone is celebrating and looting: Entire Party Paralysis. You can let them roll if you want, but make only a natural twenty break it. Lasts long enough for the player to casually walk around the party, weaving between the fighter and thief. Turning to face them. Lowering his hood. And giving his monologue. Don't forget the cackle.
Then let him challenge the party. Lowering the paralysis to be fair. Roll for Initiative.

And note that the Sorcerer likely didn't use very many spells, knowing what was to come. The party is probably tired from the fight. You can be kind and either make the first BBEG a push over. High HPs, but low damage. Or maybe gift the cleric earlier on with a scroll or one time item, that when used, replicates a the benefits of a short rest.

Should be fun.


Edit: And I disagree about having to let the other PCs in on it. Even if it stands a decent chance of their deaths. They're playing, but its your game. I'm not saying be a **** about things, but TPK does and should happen on occasion. But I don't really see it being terribly unbeatable. Worse comes to worse, and if the players are giving you the grumpy eye, you can always have them drop to 1 instead of death, but powerless. And then have the Lich player Geas them. Loss of coin. Items. Lich's knowledge of where their family and favorite barmaids live. All bad things that aren't as bad as death.
So if the Lich player ends with a win, no need to kill everyone. But obviously after the battle, the Lich goes NPC.

[Saeviomage]

I really don't understand why anyone who became a lich would not do so on the down-low. You could easily spend your entire lich career using magic jar, and nobody would ever twig that you are the same guy who keeps coming back.

[Dappershire]

I really don't understand why anyone who became a lich would not do so on the down-low. You could easily spend your entire lich career using magic jar, and nobody would ever twig that you are the same guy who keeps coming back.

You don't lich for the adventure. You lich for the peace and quiet. The centuries and more that you now have to dedicate to your arte, studies, and a truly righteous Bonsai tree.

[Battlebooze]

If you know your players really well... Go to each one you can trust and tell them that the opportunity for mass betrayal is ripe.

See if you can get all of them to betray each other at the same time. :smallcool:

"Ha ha! I'm going to kill you all now and become a lich!"

"That's good, because I planned on killing you all and becoming an Death knight!"

"And I'm really a Cleric of VECNA! SUPRISE!"

And so on. :)

[ThurlRavenscrof]

Edit: And I disagree about having to let the other PCs in on it. Even if it stands a decent chance of their deaths. They're playing, but its your game. I'm not saying be a **** about things, but TPK does and should happen on occasion. But I don't really see it being terribly unbeatable. Worse comes to worse, and if the players are giving you the grumpy eye, you can always have them drop to 1 instead of death, but powerless. And then have the Lich player Geas them. Loss of coin. Items. Lich's knowledge of where their family and favorite barmaids live. All bad things that aren't as bad as death.
So if the Lich player ends with a win, no need to kill everyone. But obviously after the battle, the Lich goes NPC.

I dunno... If someone did this in any of the groups I've played in, the rest of the party would just wait till that player rolls up a new character and then kill him. Then wait till he rolls up a new character and kill him again...
Because if d&d is a game, the best way to win is kill a known enemy. And if d&d is storytelling, all the storytellers should be okay with what's happening.
Maybe your group is different though

[Sigreid]

Regardless of the actual process, let's say the PC has a way of becoming a lich that doesn't by extension automatically result in the deaths of the remaining heroes.

Scenario A) The players fight him, and he dies. Oops, should have picked a better moment.
Scenario B) The players fight him, and they die...but not quite! As it turns out adjusting to your new lich powers caused you to not kill them like you wanted. The PCs get up after a while, and a new arc is kicked off where they hunt the new Lich down and kill him too. (Most likely handled in the form of retiring the Lich player and letting him roll a new PC to join them)

What about C) The party is morally flexible and ok with a lich buddy?

[furby076]

What about C) The party is morally flexible and ok with a lich buddy?

Liches deserve to live (sorta) too!

[RustyArmor]

One player wanted to backstab the rest of party and be the evil over lord is not new by any means. But what it comes down to is how other players feel about the retirement of their characters. Just like this one player desires to be someone important (big bad evil dude that terrorizes the lands) for the closing chapter of his character maybe the others have a big plan for how theirs also retire and just saying "Oh the sorcerer jumped you guys and you are all dead" is going to most likely upset them just as much as "Oh you tried to betray party but they over came you and defeated you" will upset the betrayer. A roll off could even be upsetting for the losing side regardless.

It could just be easier to let everyone have their retirement as they wish and the sorcerer easily go back to the location on his own years later and become the lich he wants to be, but the rest of party to old to actually go back and stop him. Heck maybe their children must take the helm and fight him in the next adventure.

[Dappershire]

I dunno... If someone did this in any of the groups I've played in, the rest of the party would just wait till that player rolls up a new character and then kill him. Then wait till he rolls up a new character and kill him again...
Because if d&d is a game, the best way to win is kill a known enemy. And if d&d is storytelling, all the storytellers should be okay with what's happening.
Maybe your group is different though

Sounds meta.
And what's happening to the storytellers is another challenge. which is what the game is. OP never said he was going to let the lich slaughter the group. Only that a betrayal of the group was imminent, and could end in deaths.




It could just be easier to let everyone have their retirement as they wish and the sorcerer easily go back to the location on his own years later and become the lich he wants to be, but the rest of party to old to actually go back and stop him. Heck maybe their children must take the helm and fight him in the next adventure.

But that defeats the whole roleplaying aspect of storytelling, doesn't it? I could just write my characters bio from birth to death, and let the table read it. The rule of thumb being that you don't control your character's destiny. Only their actions.

[crustythesailor]

I have thoroughly enjoyed all of these responses! Thank you all for the great ideas! I dont think it will result in a TPK, but I have warned the players that although I am not a DM that strives to kill characters, it can happen. So..Here is my plan...

The betrayer came up with a nice story about how, his character has secretly wanted the power that the BBEG has had, ever since he first laid eyes on it. And his Character details does say he is ambitious and wants to achieve higher power, I like his thinking outside the box and wanting to get involved in the story, its one of the few times that a player has done this with me!

While the betrayers has been "resting" away from prying eyes he has been studying the Lich's Journal (which the player's found in an old fortress a while back) and has discovered the ritual/potion needed.

So once the party gets to the BBEG lair, they find a group of innocent villagers, because NO PC IS INNOCENT :P, and he offers to "rescue them" and the session will end there. I will take him aside and we will discuss his actions next, sacrificing innocent life to create phylactery. He does this and becomes a Lich, hiding his phylactery somewhere.

Next session the party continues fighting on, destroys the phylactery, then faces the lich, and as the fight starts betrayer appears and helps party in defeating the lich, "pulling punches" so that the party is weakened. Once the BBEG is destroyed, he waves his hand and paralyzes them all.

At this point I will ask the players if they want to play this out, or if they want me to describe what happens, that they fight valiantly, etc, maybe killing one person, who has said he doesn't mind if his character gets killed to help the plot, (He has already rolled a replacement Character)

His character becomes an NPC no matter what, and once weakened he flees, to go off and attain the ultimate power, etc. The outcome is the same whether or not it is read out/played out, epic battle, at least one death, etc etc

What do ya'll think?

[MadBear]

Sounds good to me. Let us know how this goes.

[crustythesailor]

I have also done this:

Lich Ritual

1. Choose Phylactery
2.Choose Sacrifice (Must be truly innocent, take that as you will)
3. Perform Ancient Ritual to Velsharoon God of Necromancy sacrificing
innocent life and channeling power to Phylacery DC __ Arcana Check
4. Create Draught of Undeath Potion; Cost of materials 3,000 GP to succeed
in creation roll DC __ Arcana Check
5. Drink potion (if potion not created successfully, end at step 6)
6. Die
7. LICH STUFF

I want to make it difficult to do this successfully, or else all aspiring necromancers would become liches am I right?

Also it would make it interesting if the players find him dead, near the sacrifice, if he is unsuccessful with the potion creation, with it obvious to what he was trying to do...to make them feel disturbed and uneasy :)

So what should the DCs be for the phylactery and potion be? I want it difficult not impossible, He is level 9 now, and possibly around 11 to 12 when they face the lich...(there are 6 players btw, all nicely geared.)

Thanks!

[crustythesailor]

Sounds good to me. Let us know how this goes.

I really appreciate all the input, I have known most of my players for a few years, and we have all discussed player deaths, and wont get too mad if they do die. I plan on an epic ending to this either way, If they dont catch on to the fact he is a lich/trying to become one and just kill him (highly likely as he will not have FULL lich abilities, just modified to make him weaker/not in lair etc) he will go off and do Lich stuff and come back at a later date, maybe even a different campaign in this world etc, and cause havoc as a NPC.

And I will be taking the reigns as an NPC if he follows through with this. And we plan on having him roll a new character for their next big adventure!

Again, thanks MadBear, and everyone else for your awesome ideas, and inspirations!

I will post on here when we play this coming Saturday, and when we finish campaign, most likely the 28th of May...

Cheers!

[KorvinStarmast]

Once the BBEG is destroyed, he waves his hand and paralyzes them all. No saving throw?

[jaappleton]

No saving throw?

Yeah, you gotta let 'em save. I mean, the resources of the party are likely to be spent fighting the original lich, right? Gotta at least give them a chance to interrupt this.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, you gotta let 'em save. I mean, the resources of the party are likely to be spent fighting the original lich, right? Gotta at least give them a chance to interrupt this.
Yeah, a no save amounts to "rocks fall, everyone dies."

[MadBear]

Yeah, a no save amounts to "rocks fall, everyone dies."

well based on what he described, the paralysis is just to allow the old PC to give his epic monologue. It won't last, and the players will get to decide what happens next (fight, narrate, etc.).

[TheOldCrow]

The betrayer came up with a nice story about how, his character has secretly wanted the power that the BBEG has had, ever since he first laid eyes on it. And his Character details does say he is ambitious and wants to achieve higher power, I like his thinking outside the box and wanting to get involved in the story, its one of the few times that a player has done this with me!

I think retroing his interest in becoming a lich takes away from the other characters (and the players of said characters at the table) the reasonable chance they could have had of spotting this coming. Since this involves the other characters I think lichawannabe's study of how to lich should start from when he told you he wants to lich.


So once the party gets to the BBEG lair, they find a group of innocent villagers, because NO PC IS INNOCENT :P, and he offers to "rescue them" and the session will end there. I will take him aside and we will discuss his actions next, sacrificing innocent life to create phylactery. He does this and becomes a Lich, hiding his phylactery somewhere.

Next session the party continues fighting on, destroys the phylactery, then faces the lich, and as the fight starts betrayer appears and helps party in defeating the lich, "pulling punches" so that the party is weakened. Once the BBEG is destroyed, he waves his hand and paralyzes them all.

You are not an impartial DM, here. How will the rest of the players feel about you obviously placing what lichwannabe needs, scripting it so he gets the innocents, no roblems gettting in and out, and somehow timing it perfectly. Of course, they may never know yu have scripted the whole thing s the betrayer can have his way, but you are scripting it for the benefit of one player.


At this point I will ask the players if they want to play this out, or if they want me to describe what happens, that they fight valiantly, etc, maybe killing one person, who has said he doesn't mind if his character gets killed to help the plot, (He has already rolled a replacement Character)

What's he casting to paralyze? You can still stop action and ask even if some make their saves.


His character becomes an NPC no matter what, and once weakened he flees, to go off and attain the ultimate power, etc. The outcome is the same whether or not it is read out/played out, epic battle, at least one death, etc etc

What do ya'll think?

What if they kill him? What if they decide to get his phylactory and destroy it? This is where letting lichwannabe retro his lichwannaing is a real problem, because the party should have seen clues so they would know where and what to look for. How do they want to end the campaign?

[Beelzebubba]

Yeah, a no save amounts to "rocks fall, everyone dies."

... and that would anger me 100x more than the PC flipping to NPC and betraying everyone.

If you need to stop rolling dice and following the rules of the game to make the story happen, this isn't the right game for what you want to do.

[MadBear]

... and that would anger me 100x more than the PC flipping to NPC and betraying everyone.

If you need to stop rolling dice and following the rules of the game to make the story happen, this isn't the right game for what you want to do.

If this was so the New Lich could then auto-kill all the PC's I'd 100% agree with you.

However, were talking about a swift paralysis to allow the betrayer a quick opportunity to give his evil monologue. I don't at all see that as problematic, because the spell will break before the betrayer can hurt/harm the PC's.

[RickAllison]

For the paralysis, I would make it like Otto's Irresistable Dance, no save to start but an action to make a save. Pre-record the new lich's monologue to really get the idea that this guy is on a power trip and has been planning this. Every six seconds, let the party roll their saves. Someone might jump the gun, but ideally they put off their attacks so they can make a unified strike against their former friend.

For the DCs, I would say 20 is the minimum. These are incredibly difficult checks that change a life forever. More likely, I would say 25 or higher. The sorcerer may only succeed on something like a 20, and that is fine because they should be able to try again. If we are being most true to the lore, the D.C. Is probably 30 but then the sorcerer needs to access the Guidance spell and get a 20 or near it.

[Beelzebubba]

If this was so the New Lich could then auto-kill all the PC's I'd 100% agree with you.

However, were talking about a swift paralysis to allow the betrayer a quick opportunity to give his evil monologue. I don't at all see that as problematic, because the spell will break before the betrayer can hurt/harm the PC's.

Ah, OK, I missed that. Neeeevermind.

This is where I love the Dr. Who RPG. The initiative order goes 'Talk, Run, Do Stuff, Fight'. So you can monologue as much as you want without fear.