TPK or let them off the hook

[nickl_2000]

I was running an level 1 session in a homebrew campaign, PCs are in a keep that will appear later in the campaign. They are murder hoboing their way through it all (they are Monster's after all) when they come to a barred door. They try and open it, get yelled out by a "deep strong voice" who basically tells them to get lost, he is to important and busy to deal with this crap right now. PC's continue to bug him, so they hear heavy clanking of metal on the stone floors of the keep. He opens the door wearing full plate with a great sword strapped to his back. The PC are excited about the possibility of Full Plate armor and don't consider the fact that they are weaklings who don't have very good stuff. So, PC shoots him with a crossbow, which just plinks off his armor. He's set up as a character they have to run away from later in the session if they do to much murder hoboing, but in this situation he will massacre the PCs without even thinking.

My solution was for the Knight to slough them off, yell for the guards to "take care of this vermin" shut the door, and go back to work.


As a DM should I have TPKed them immediately for not taking the hint? (it was a first time DMing and I didn't particularly want to kill them off so early).

[hymer]

How about explaining that those things were, in fact, hints, and that the players should be on the lookout for the likes of those in the future? I'd consider that a good intermediate step between letting them off the hook and TPK. Because the players have to learn sometime, and right now they seem to have learned that ominous hints don't mean much. On the other hand, it's a little early for their first TPK.
Though, it's hard to say if they would have kept enough smarts to run away and make the TPK into a general rout, possibly with permanent losses.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

I don't know your group or what you're looking for in a campaign but I would probably have the guards take the party back to the cells or whatever and then later have the knight kill (or otherwise remove) the PC who shot him. He could probably do it in one turn so that would show the party to pick their battles a little more carefully but not crush the fun of it just being a game where you can do crazy things.

[Rhaegar]

A party wipe doesn't have to result in everyone in the party dying. You can have the knight choose to just knock out all the players and lock them up in a dungeon, and see if they can escape on their own, if not, orchestrate an NPC to help them escape.

[Doug Lampert]

I was running an level 1 session in a homebrew campaign, PCs are in a keep that will appear later in the campaign. They are murder hoboing their way through it all (they are Monster's after all) when they come to a barred door. They try and open it, get yelled out by a "deep strong voice" who basically tells them to get lost, he is to important and busy to deal with this crap right now. PC's continue to bug him, so they hear heavy clanking of metal on the stone floors of the keep. He opens the door wearing full plate with a great sword strapped to his back. The PC are excited about the possibility of Full Plate armor and don't consider the fact that they are weaklings who don't have very good stuff. So, PC shoots him with a crossbow, which just plinks off his armor. He's set up as a character they have to run away from later in the session if they do to much murder hoboing, but in this situation he will massacre the PCs without even thinking.

My solution was for the Knight to slough them off, yell for the guards to "take care of this vermin" shut the door, and go back to work.


As a DM should I have TPKed them immediately for not taking the hint? (it was a first time DMing and I didn't particularly want to kill them off so early).

One advantage to an early TPK is that it sets up that not everything is a fight they can win, and that you will kill them for "stupid" at a point when the players aren't all that invested in their characters. To put it another way, there is no BETTER time to have a TPK than at the start of a game, it's NEVER too early. There are games where you don't want a TPK (the PCs are the destined and prophesied heroes doesn't work well with a TPK), but if you are willing to do one at all in a game, early is better than later.

So, if it were me, with my regular group, I'd have killed them. Too many benefits and too little cost not to. (Note that "run away" would still let them live, but I'm assuming they'd not do so.)

For a first time DM though there are two significant costs to an early TPK, (1) the players have no reason to trust that you know what you're doing, and hence may not have any patience for "make a new set of characters", (2) you can't be sure you communicated the situation well, running combat so the players know what's going on is a non-trivial skill, you may not have been as clear as you think you were that this is a bad idea, or with a new group they may simply not be paying attention to the right things. I'm a big believer in open communications. First time with a new group, at the moment they announced they were shooting at the guy (prior to die rolls), I'd have stopped the game, announce "You realize if you do this you will almost certainly lose the fight, this guy is not level 1, and he's got real gear, he can probably kill you all. Do you shoot?"

[mephnick]

As a player I'd be asking "What hint?" A single humanoid enemy with full plate being sort of a jerk? Sounds like a norml encounter to me. You have to be obvious with these things.

[nickl_2000]

First time with a new group, at the moment they announced they were shooting at the guy (prior to die rolls), I'd have stopped the game, announce "You realize if you do this you will almost certainly lose the fight, this guy is not level 1, and he's got real gear, he can probably kill you all. Do you shoot?"

That would have bee a great idea. They as a party were enjoying being Monsters and were acting reckless at this point and should have been reminded that death was possible...


A party wipe doesn't have to result in everyone in the party dying. You can have the knight choose to just knock out all the players and lock them up in a dungeon, and see if they can escape on their own, if not, orchestrate an NPC to help them escape.

And


I don't know your group or what you're looking for in a campaign but I would probably have the guards take the party back to the cells or whatever and then later have the knight kill (or otherwise remove) the PC who shot him. He could probably do it in one turn so that would show the party to pick their battles a little more carefully but not crush the fun of it just being a game where you can do crazy things.

They started in the dungeons, so it would have been a starting over that I should have considered. That being said, the progress they had made would have been a little boring to re-do. My fear of not doing a good job DMing or them not enjoying the story probably took over in not doing this.



How about explaining that those things were, in fact, hints, and that the players should be on the lookout for the likes of those in the future? I'd consider that a good intermediate step between letting them off the hook and TPK. Because the players have to learn sometime, and right now they seem to have learned that ominous hints don't mean much. On the other hand, it's a little early for their first TPK.
Though, it's hard to say if they would have kept enough smarts to run away and make the TPK into a general rout, possibly with permanent losses.

I did ask after we got to the stopping point about things that went well and didn't go well. While we were talking about it, I did explain about the Knight being able to smash them to a bloody pulp without even trying. So, they know that I did let them off the hook there.




As a player I'd be asking "What hint?" A single humanoid enemy with full plate being sort of a jerk? Sounds like a norml encounter to me. You have to be obvious with these things.

I was trying to be obvious and believe that I made a mistake in the presentation of the situation (and actually the fact that the situation was even possible). Then intent was a Knight NPC from the MM that would appear when the PCs did enough to trigger off the alarm bells in the city. I figured that the alarm bells ringing and the city walls doors being closed was a hint to get the heck out of there right now, and it was. I learned that in the design alone I would have been better not even having the knight there at all for them to do the encounter if I didn't want them to possibly fight him.







Thanks everyone for the thoughts. I certainly did learn about encounter building in general through the experience and wanted to get a feel for how others would have handled it. In future modules now that I have a little more buy in, there will be a higher chance of players getting killed off and I will make it more dangerous, but it was those first time ever jitters that I had.

[Beastrolami]

I don't know if you already made your decision or not, but here's what I would have done.

He would look down at the shattered crossbow bold, reach in his pocket, and draw out a copper coin, rock, etc. After taking dawing this useless item, he'll throw it at the party member that shot him. Roll an ranged unarmed attack, use his best modifier. It does 1 damage +best mode+abilities, i.e. hunters mark, etc. That should hit a low level party member, and should bring them down pretty far. He looks down at the still living pc, shakes his head, and calls for the guards.

If he uses a coin to throw, he may call the party members beggers, or make a quip about "no soliciting". Hurt the players, and make it clear that he is not even trying.

[Laserlight]

Players tend not to catch hints. They're distracted by looking at their character sheet, or Facebook, or they don't understand an implication of the rules, or the DM didn't describe the situation as clearly as he thought, or something. You pretty much have to be explicit with them. I'd have said "The knight clearly doesn't feel at all threatened by you. He has good armor, so you're going to have a hard time hitting him. He's a powerful man with a greatsword, so he's likely to kill any of you with a single hit, and he might get multiple attacks per turn. Do you wish to continue?"

That way, when someone says "Yes"--and odds are that they will--you can kill them without a qualm.

[Angelmaker]

Fom a player's perspective:

1) why is the "dungeon boss" set up as a random encounter behind some door, without a hint? If you don't want us to encounter him, don't let us, if you want us to learn about him being dangerous there are better ways - his study is void of his presence and we can find all about his bloody deeds and notoriety with a history check, for example?

2) what kind of dungeon is this? We are kind of expected to kill everything inside ( because monsters and D&D reasons ) but this one guy in there is doing exactly what in there?

From a GM's perspective

Player's disregard warning signs quite easily. D&D characters can become quite powerful and players quite cocky.

Did I communicate clearly that this is a bad idea?
1) Description: it's not only about the character in question but about his environment, too. If hde is just sitting around in a room in a dungeon,, he's just another encounter. If his antechamber is decorated with the head of a kyton he slew himself as a hunting trophy... Maybe that get's the message across better?
2) knowledge checks: invesigation / history, something else - if people are trained in it, reward thise skillchoices by auto succeeding and give them some basic information about the character. A name alone should be a strong hint, that they have heard of him for reason x. Roll for details.
3) straight out telling: there are even class features playing into this - i think the battlemaster class has the ability to study an enemy? You could also let people give and idea about their enemy with passive insight. Anyway, a simple "your guts wrench in fear at the thought of intiating combat with this guy." Might do the trick.

[nickl_2000]

I don't know if you already made your decision or not, but here's what I would have done.

He would look down at the shattered crossbow bold, reach in his pocket, and draw out a copper coin, rock, etc. After taking dawing this useless item, he'll throw it at the party member that shot him. Roll an ranged unarmed attack, use his best modifier. It does 1 damage +best mode+abilities, i.e. hunters mark, etc. That should hit a low level party member, and should bring them down pretty far. He looks down at the still living pc, shakes his head, and calls for the guards.

If he uses a coin to throw, he may call the party members beggers, or make a quip about "no soliciting". Hurt the players, and make it clear that he is not even trying.


The decision has already been made, but as I was making in in game it felt both weak and kinda boring. This would have been WAY better of a choice than what I did. I'm trying to figure out how others would have handled it as a "lessons learned" situation. That way I can tell more interesting and cohesive stories in the future when DMing.



Fom a player's perspective:

1) why is the "dungeon boss" set up as a random encounter behind some door, without a hint? If you don't want us to encounter him, don't let us, if you want us to learn about him being dangerous there are better ways - his study is void of his presence and we can find all about his bloody deeds and notoriety with a history check, for example?

2) what kind of dungeon is this? We are kind of expected to kill everything inside ( because monsters and D&D reasons ) but this one guy in there is doing exactly what in there?



I learned already that I shouldn't have even had him there, so I learned that lesson already :)

As for both 1 and 2: This wasn't a traditional party in a traditional dungeon. The PCs are monster races and started out in a dungeon in this keep, waiting execution, with nothing but the clothes on their back (and in the case of the goblin, not even that because the player enjoyed the idea of a naked goblin running around). They had to break out of the dungeon, collect the gear that they could, and get the heck out of the city before they were killed. Given that they are on the second floor of a keep, a knight having an office up there is certainly not a random encounter or unexpected.

[KorvinStarmast]

Players tend not to catch hints. They're distracted by looking at their character sheet, or Facebook, If they are looking at facebook during the game, a TPK (or a character death if only one person is habitually offending) is warranted as a lesson in being alert and paying attention.

That said, what a DM puts up with at table varies.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

Totally understand your fear of being the strict DM especially on your first time. Something to consider for future games: if your party resists the idea of learning lessons or being morally decent people, that's actually okay because you can scrap your game and start an evil campaign. You can really make anything work

[nickl_2000]

Totally understand your fear of being the strict DM especially on your first time. Something to consider for future games: if your party resists the idea of learning lessons or being morally decent people, that's actually okay because you can scrap your game and start an evil campaign. You can really make anything work

It is a monster campaign, I've written everything so far that allows them to solve problems using good, neutral, or evil methods.

[Ninja-Radish]

I was running an level 1 session in a homebrew campaign, PCs are in a keep that will appear later in the campaign. They are murder hoboing their way through it all (they are Monster's after all) when they come to a barred door. They try and open it, get yelled out by a "deep strong voice" who basically tells them to get lost, he is to important and busy to deal with this crap right now. PC's continue to bug him, so they hear heavy clanking of metal on the stone floors of the keep. He opens the door wearing full plate with a great sword strapped to his back. The PC are excited about the possibility of Full Plate armor and don't consider the fact that they are weaklings who don't have very good stuff. So, PC shoots him with a crossbow, which just plinks off his armor. He's set up as a character they have to run away from later in the session if they do to much murder hoboing, but in this situation he will massacre the PCs without even thinking.

My solution was for the Knight to slough them off, yell for the guards to "take care of this vermin" shut the door, and go back to work.


As a DM should I have TPKed them immediately for not taking the hint? (it was a first time DMing and I didn't particularly want to kill them off so early).

Some dude yelling "Go Away!" really isn't much of a hint, and I have no idea why a DM would think it is.
Your idea sounds good though, just have him summon some minions and leave, letting the PCs battle the minions.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

It is a monster campaign, I've written everything so far that allows them to solve problems using good, neutral, or evil methods.

Yeah but not all monster campaigns are evil campaigns. I'm just throwing the idea out to you.

[Sigreid]

I say kill them if they don't run. Maybe his first round is a halv hearted swing that makes it clear he could have killed if he wanted to.

[nickl_2000]

Yeah but not all monster campaigns are evil campaigns. I'm just throwing the idea out to you.

True, I'm letting them figure it out themselves. Are they evil, are they good, are they trying to find a place in a world that doesn't want them? Let the players decide and later module will be tailored to their play style.

[Tanarii]

As for both 1 and 2: This wasn't a traditional party in a traditional dungeon. The PCs are monster races and started out in a dungeon in this keep, waiting execution, with nothing but the clothes on their back (and in the case of the goblin, not even that because the player enjoyed the idea of a naked goblin running around). They had to break out of the dungeon, collect the gear that they could, and get the heck out of the city before they were killed. Given that they are on the second floor of a keep, a knight having an office up there is certainly not a random encounter or unexpected.
Is the party aware they need to get the heck out of the city before they are killed? Are they aware that they CAN and WILL be killed if they don't play it smart, and do something stupid, like murderhobo-ing indiscriminately? (As opposed to intelligently and selectively.)

Or do they think it's a Combat-as-Sport campaign, as so many players assume unless specified otherwise? That they generally speaking, can win any potential combat encounter they face, provided they play tactically smart.

If it's the former, then TPK them. No mercy.
If it's supposed to be the latter, despite your quote above, then don't.
If it hasn't been specified, you need to decide which it is (I assume the former from your quote above), then communicate it. Assuming it's the former, open up the next session with something like: 'Hey look guys, if you insist on fighting this guy, you're dead. Because that's the kind of campaign this is. You can't beat everyone, so play smart. This is your one and only warning."

[Temperjoke]

Well, the way I see it, they've been pushing their luck. Even if they are monsters, the fact that they were on death row and chose to go on a rampage instead of concentrating on escaping with their lives tends to make me feel less sad about an early TPK. That being said, nothing says that the knight didn't toss them right back in the cells they just escaped from. Of course, they wouldn't be able to escape the same way this time, but maybe with the added death and mayhem they caused has made the knight or whomever is in charge to sentence them to a worse fate than a clean execution or an honorable death in battle? The worse fate could be something they have a slim chance to escape from (potentially with help from an unforeseen NPC ally), and it helps you move the story along.

[nickl_2000]

Thank you everyone. I really appreciate all the thoughts. I've learned a lot through your idea and input that I will be putting into future modules.

I will be a lot less friendly in the next modules of the campaign, but will write have them run through encounters that are possible to win (although not if they make bad decisions). I'm less worried about a PC being dropped and left to rot in the forest than I was for the first session.

[Armored Walrus]

I think your solution was pretty elegant, actually. Not bad at all for a seat-of-your-pants method of dealing with a situation you didn't foresee. And you followed up to let them know that in the future they will potentially be faced with threats that can kill them, and you won't pull punches when it happens. I do agree that if you want to be able to telecast to them which threats are over their heads that you need to be more explicit than you were here. Also agree with the point you've already taken - If you don't want them to fight it, don't put it in front of them. PCs will try to fight just about anything, especially if they're in silly mode.