Malifice
2017-05-02, 03:23 PM
Rangers are OK at low levels. Its later on they start to suck. The big hurt level is 11th when Paladins get improved divine smite, and fighters spit out 3 attacks per round (or 6 when action surging).
Just like at 5th, every class gets something game changing at 11th level. 6th level slots for casters, reliable talent for rogues, that 3rd slot for warlocks (and a 6th level arcanum), improved divine smite and extra attack for fighters etc
When you look closely at Rangers the devs handed them Conclave feature there. That 11th level conclave feature is supposed to be their gamechanger.
For hunters its a choice of (volley) or (whirlwind attack).
Low damage, wide area attacks generally suck. Look at most tables and PCs are focus firing critters to death, ganging up on one at a time, and spike damaging it to death. Dealing low damage to a half dozen critters is no good when those half dozen critters dont drop, and you get a half dozen attacks back in your face. Youre always better off focussing on one, so you only get 5 attcks back on their turn. Instinctively we all know this.
Volley is situationally OK. Its AoE is 20x20 and most self respecting rangers have picked up archery F/S and sharpshooter by 11th level (and most have maxed Dex). 20 odd points of damage to every critter in a 16 square burst isnt totally useless. Its situationaly very good when mopping up stragglers left standing after a fireball for example. You get an extra shot in via Hoarde breaker at any idiot to double tap one fool inthe AoE radius also (also the guy you hexed). One guy taking 40-50 damage and half a dozen others taking 20 odd each is a fantastic return. Only useful when you have 3 or more dudes all within a 20x20 AoE though.
Whirlwind attack on the other hand is just awful. Most self respecting melee hunters are dual wielding (because ranger) getting 3 attacks but the bonus action attack is lost with whirlwind attack. Meaning you need no fewer than 4 adjacent enemies (and probably 5) to make any use of it (and even then, dealing piddling damage to 4 guys or dealing good damage to one guy... I know which one I take).
Do you want 3 attacks at the one guy you've spammed hunters mark on for 15 damage per pop, or one attack at each of the 3-4 guys around you, likely only dealing around 10 damage per hit. It'll take you several rounds to kill those guys surrounding you, and you'll be dead long before that happens.
TL;DR - Whirlwind attack sucks because you need to be in melee, where the multiple guys surrounding you can hit you back It doesnt play nice with the melee style/ feats/ fighting style of many rangers. Its AoE is the 8 squares surrounding you opposed to Volleys 16 squares (at range).
What whirlwind attak needs is a reason for to want to use it. The ranger player should be looking at the board, trying to find a time when its actually worth running into a sea of enemies and activating Whirlwind attack. It also needs to be on par with extra attack and improved divine smite (the latter of which offers +2d8 damage per round, every round on average).
My proposed solution:
At 11th level, you can use your action to make a melee weapon attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you, with a separate attack roll for each target. Each attack that hits deals an extra +1d8 points of weapon damage.
Smaller AoE. Better damage. With a longsword, its 2d8+Str+2 to all dudes within 5'. 16 points of damage (plus a dude gets attacked again via hordebreaker for an extra 11, and you've likely put a hunters mark on that guy for 7 more). 34 damage to one dude, 16 to everyone else.
Three adjacent targets or more and its probably worth it (its probably a wash with 3 targets... depending on the targets, youre probably still better off just belting him three times with hunters mark, and horde breaker an adjacent target). Four targets and its probably in your favor to do.
Thoughts?
Just like at 5th, every class gets something game changing at 11th level. 6th level slots for casters, reliable talent for rogues, that 3rd slot for warlocks (and a 6th level arcanum), improved divine smite and extra attack for fighters etc
When you look closely at Rangers the devs handed them Conclave feature there. That 11th level conclave feature is supposed to be their gamechanger.
For hunters its a choice of (volley) or (whirlwind attack).
Low damage, wide area attacks generally suck. Look at most tables and PCs are focus firing critters to death, ganging up on one at a time, and spike damaging it to death. Dealing low damage to a half dozen critters is no good when those half dozen critters dont drop, and you get a half dozen attacks back in your face. Youre always better off focussing on one, so you only get 5 attcks back on their turn. Instinctively we all know this.
Volley is situationally OK. Its AoE is 20x20 and most self respecting rangers have picked up archery F/S and sharpshooter by 11th level (and most have maxed Dex). 20 odd points of damage to every critter in a 16 square burst isnt totally useless. Its situationaly very good when mopping up stragglers left standing after a fireball for example. You get an extra shot in via Hoarde breaker at any idiot to double tap one fool inthe AoE radius also (also the guy you hexed). One guy taking 40-50 damage and half a dozen others taking 20 odd each is a fantastic return. Only useful when you have 3 or more dudes all within a 20x20 AoE though.
Whirlwind attack on the other hand is just awful. Most self respecting melee hunters are dual wielding (because ranger) getting 3 attacks but the bonus action attack is lost with whirlwind attack. Meaning you need no fewer than 4 adjacent enemies (and probably 5) to make any use of it (and even then, dealing piddling damage to 4 guys or dealing good damage to one guy... I know which one I take).
Do you want 3 attacks at the one guy you've spammed hunters mark on for 15 damage per pop, or one attack at each of the 3-4 guys around you, likely only dealing around 10 damage per hit. It'll take you several rounds to kill those guys surrounding you, and you'll be dead long before that happens.
TL;DR - Whirlwind attack sucks because you need to be in melee, where the multiple guys surrounding you can hit you back It doesnt play nice with the melee style/ feats/ fighting style of many rangers. Its AoE is the 8 squares surrounding you opposed to Volleys 16 squares (at range).
What whirlwind attak needs is a reason for to want to use it. The ranger player should be looking at the board, trying to find a time when its actually worth running into a sea of enemies and activating Whirlwind attack. It also needs to be on par with extra attack and improved divine smite (the latter of which offers +2d8 damage per round, every round on average).
My proposed solution:
At 11th level, you can use your action to make a melee weapon attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you, with a separate attack roll for each target. Each attack that hits deals an extra +1d8 points of weapon damage.
Smaller AoE. Better damage. With a longsword, its 2d8+Str+2 to all dudes within 5'. 16 points of damage (plus a dude gets attacked again via hordebreaker for an extra 11, and you've likely put a hunters mark on that guy for 7 more). 34 damage to one dude, 16 to everyone else.
Three adjacent targets or more and its probably worth it (its probably a wash with 3 targets... depending on the targets, youre probably still better off just belting him three times with hunters mark, and horde breaker an adjacent target). Four targets and its probably in your favor to do.
Thoughts?