Is it really *that* important to get your primary stat to 20 asap?

[Rezby]

I've just hit level 4 as a sorcerer, with a CHA stat of 16. While I could use my ASI to get my CHA to 18, easy, simple, +1s everywhere, etc, it seems kinda.... boring. So I'm contemplating taking the feat of magic initiate to get more cantrips and spells. I'm also considering multiclassing into warlock 1 or 2 after hitting 5th level and gaining 3rd level spells.

I took witch bolt because I thought using concentration to continuously deal d12 damage to 1-2 targets could be p useful in a fight, but its proved lackluster so I'm also thinkin of retrainin it for chromatic orb, or burning hands.

(Blue) Draconic Sorcerer 4, Half-Elf, CN
HP: 30, AC 16
STR 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.

Skill profs: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Perception, Persuasion, Stealth
Metamagics: Subtle Spell, Twinned Spell

Spells known:
Cantrips: Acid Splash, Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Message
1: Magic Missile, Witch Bolt, "Find Familiar"
2: Invisibility, Web


Everybody is actually just a human, while still keeping some of their racial abilities. Most darkvisions are gone, and other extra very non-human stuff is gone.

Magic is the big one, too. Its a much lower magic world, so the character has to "discover" their magic power, basically. In exchange for knowing less spells, we know more cantrips, and the list of cantrips available to take is curated - no mending or mage hand, for one. Until we become proper magicians and then we trade in the extra cantrips for the real spells a character of our level ought to have.

My character's draconic heritage stuff actually stems from his familiar. When she isn't around, he loses those extra AC / HP, and some of his spell casting capabilities. Due to real world obligations/tax season, players have had to leave and new ones have joined in. Of the original group of 5, only 2 of us remain. As such, he's the only full caster in the party who actually has access to his magic - the bard has yet to really find it, only having been there for like 4 sessions so far. Healing magic has not been a thing we've had access to.


If I took magic initiate, I'd either pick Druid for access to Goodberry + mending and guidance cantrips, Warlock for access to Eldritch Blast + w/e else, or Sorcerer for more spells. If I picked warlock, I wouldn't need to actually MC and could conitnue leveling as a straight sorcerer.

While the party consists of me, two rangers, a valor bard, and a new barbarian (who will join us at level 4 after the next game session), due to the homebrew, the other 3 magical users have not had a chance to really get into their magic. One of the rangers does have Goodberry but has yet to actually be able to access it. I had originally planned to play a gish style sorcerer with booming blade, but that was because we didn't have any tanky characters. I've since dropped that aspect with the constant rotation of players/characters meaning we actually do have front liners now.

What do you all think?

[GPS]

This is only your 4th level ASI, you'll do fine without increasing your CHA. You have a +3 in your casting stat, that's all you really need until 8th level. +3 to casting stat is what I usually work with until 8th, and it usually works out fine. At level 8 you're gonna want to take an ASI, but for the level 4 ASI a feat can't really hurt you when you have a +3 already.

[Geodude6]

I'm playing a wizard, and held off on increasing my intelligence for Resilient (Con).

[GlenSmash!]

+3 is fine for the entire game. Really. Take what you find to be interesting.

I only max a stat if being the Strongest/Most Agile/Toughest/Smartest/Wisest/Most Charismatic person possible is core to my concept of the Character.

[Pex]

Only for aesthetic completeness or you will be a 20th level barbarian. The math of the game does matter. You will want the 18 which can wait till level 8 if need be. You can afford to diversify either through pumping a non-prime, getting a feat, or delay ASI by multiclassing. What you could be more important to you than getting to 20. Nothing wrong with having the 20 of course, just not absolutely necessary.

[PeteNutButter]

If you plan to multiclass into warlock that cha becomes even more important, and your ASIs are delayed sticking you with a 16 for even longer. Why do you want magic initiate? To heal? A single level in bard fixes that with less cost to your progression.

No you don't need to boost cha but it is the optimal choice. All that being said if you are in a party with other full casters who CANT CAST I think it'd be hard not to out due them.

[Mandragola]

I wouldn't recommend the multiclass - instead go for spell progression all the way.

But for your ASI, do whatever you like. Sorcerers have quite an easy time with stats, since they really only care about charisma. You've definitely got ASIs spare for feats.

Magic initiate wouldn't be awful, but eldritch blast is only really useful if you get agonising blast, hex etc. to boost its damage further. If you aren't getting those then you'd be better off with some kind of zappy cantrip, that gets to add your charisma to damage at 6th level, and fire/frost bolt for ranged damage.

Elemental adept might be a good option. I'd recommend it for a red or gold dragon sorceror, as lots of stuff has fire resistance. Not sure it's so relevant for a blue.

[Citan]

I've just hit level 4 as a sorcerer, with a CHA stat of 16. While I could use my ASI to get my CHA to 18, easy, simple, +1s everywhere, etc, it seems kinda.... boring. So I'm contemplating taking the feat of magic initiate to get more cantrips and spells. I'm also considering multiclassing into warlock 1 or 2 after hitting 5th level and gaining 3rd level spells.

If I took magic initiate, I'd either pick Druid for access to Goodberry + mending and guidance cantrips, Warlock for access to Eldritch Blast + w/e else, or Sorcerer for more spells. If I picked warlock, I wouldn't need to actually MC and could conitnue leveling as a straight sorcerer.

I had originally planned to play a gish style sorcerer with booming blade, but that was because we didn't have any tanky characters. I've since dropped that aspect with the constant rotation of players/characters meaning we actually do have front liners now.

What do you all think?
Hi!

Well, the casting stat is for a Sorcerer, both more and less important than for others at the same time.
More, because basically all features revolve around spellcasting (compared to a Wizard for example where many Schools provide "standalone" benefits, or Bard / Druid / Clerics).
Less, because...
- it does not influence the number of "active" spells you have contrarily to Cleric/Druid/Wizard.
- Sorcerers can rely on either Heigtened Metamagic or Wild Magic features to help ensure their spells succeed.

The thing is, you have none of the above. That would be an incentive to get a +CHA.
But, more importantly, you are lacking in the sustained damage department.
Acid Splash is "just good", same with Chill Touch usually.
So grabbing Magic Initiate seems indeed the best choice.
As for which... I would probably advise Sorcerer because it's a good way for you to grab another spell known which is extremely precious in your homebrew ruling: Fog Cloud, Shield, Chromatic Orb and Comprehend Languages are all good (great) spells to have, in addition to the Burning Hands you could get as a swap with Witch Bolt.

If you really want Eldricht Blast, better would be taking Spell Sniper imo. ;)

[Cespenar]

IMO, it is almost always better to get either Lucky or Resilient (Dex/Con/Wis) instead of an ASI.

[JAL_1138]

Only for aesthetic completeness or you will be a 20th level barbarian. The math of the game does matter. You will want the 18 which can wait till level 8 if need be. You can afford to diversify either through pumping a non-prime, getting a feat, or delay ASI by multiclassing. What you could be more important to you than getting to 20. Nothing wrong with having the 20 of course, just not absolutely necessary.

Agreed. 18 is high enough, even at 20th level, to be competent. I'd argue you can hold off on the 18 'till level 12 on certain builds that require two combat feats; 16 can hold you over 'till then. For a single-class Sorcerer though you do want it at 8th.

The question is whether what you get in return for not having 20 is worth it. In most games you probably wouldn't want to take the Linguist feat instead, for example.

[ProphetSword]

I've just hit level 4 as a sorcerer, with a CHA stat of 16. While I could use my ASI to get my CHA to 18, easy, simple, +1s everywhere, etc, it seems kinda.... boring. So I'm contemplating taking the feat of magic initiate to get more cantrips and spells. I'm also considering multiclassing into warlock 1 or 2 after hitting 5th level and gaining 3rd level spells.



Play your character however you want and in whatever way brings you the most fun. You'll be fine no matter what you do. The only important thing is that you like your character and that you're having a blast playing them.

[D.U.P.A.]

Depends on the class. For example Monk generally wants to max both Dex and Wis, which increases most of its features and usually has no big use of feats. Similar is for Rogue, but it gets more ASI, so eventually you will take so feats later in the game. Druid and Cleric need rather high Wis to have more spells prepared, since they need to prepare rituals too unlike wizards. Sorcere is fine with a bit lower Cha, you may focus on spells without saving throws and attack rolls, like Haste. But if you are blaster, maxing spellcasting stat is almost a must, missing is not fun.

[SharkForce]

you don't have to max charisma. you especially don't have to max it as soon as possible. the difference between DC 13 and DC 14 is not that noticeable.

having said that, the higher your save DC is, the more valuable it is to increase it. i wouldn't worry about it much at level 4, but i would try to have it by level 16 (so you're ready for the level 17 proficiency bonus increase) if you intend to focus on control spells, and if you're ever even going to reach level 17 in the first place (naturally, if the game ends at level 10, you're probably not going to have DC 19+ no matter what you do, so there's no point in worrying about it :P )

eldritch blast is honestly not that amazing without warlock levels. it's ok, but i wouldn't focus super hard... without invocations, it's about the same as fire bolt, just split into multiple attacks. and you can already get fire bolt if you want. unless there are some other warlock spells that you *really* want, i wouldn't invest this heavily for eldritch blast (that said, armour of agathys is pretty cool... though once per day does put a bit of a damper on things).

goodberry you would only be able to cast once per day if you took druid initiate. if you want healing, take the healer feat and invest in a large pile of first aid kits :P (or take inspiring leader and let someone else, ideally a thief or arcane trickster rogue, take the healer feat, but that's obviously beyond your control :P )

sorcerer initiate for more spells sounds reasonable. there's plenty of level 1 spells you can pick up that will be worth keeping, and you can always change your other ones later on since likely you won't need all of them indefinitely. more cantrips can be used to get fire bolt, which is as noted close to as good as eldritch blast without invocations anyways (better if you want to set fire to something or attack an object, which eldritch blast officially cannot do, fyi).

i also think the spell sniper feat is a good suggestion if you want better at-will blasting. it gives you a fairly significant improvement (ignoring cover), and you can still get eldritch blast that way, and with eldritch blast being just the small side benefit rather than the whole reason for taking the feat, it looks a lot more reasonable to me.

[Spiritchaser]

My planned half elven Hexblade will most certainly take elven accuracy before anything else.

I'd advocate res con or warcaster if appropriate

Maxing primary won't always be best

[Jamesps]

If you want the math answer just keep track of how many saves and attack rolls you make during a game. The charisma bump will effect 1/20th of them. So if you make 40 rolls/force 40 saves in a game then you've changed the outcome for an average of 2 of them.

Compare that with the utility of the feat you want to take, and that should give you your answer. I agree though with the guy that said "Lucky" is always the optimal choice, at least for spell casters. Three times per day you get to reroll the roll you perceive as most important? That's way better than getting an extra success on a few random rolls you have no say in.

[Kurald Galain]

I've just hit level 4 as a sorcerer, with a CHA stat of 16. While I could use my ASI to get my CHA to 18, easy, simple, +1s everywhere, etc, it seems kinda.... boring.

Indeed. Any feat that gives you new options is going to be more effective than making you 5% better at something you could already do.

[JumboWheat01]

This is the edition where a Wizard can have INT as their dump stat and still be a perfectly viable Wizard. So no, it's not THAT important. I still like doing it, though, but that's my personal choice.

I think it matters a bit more with martial classes than caster ones, though, because you really don't have much else to do in combat besides spanking something. That INT dumped Wizard can still cast plenty of utility and support spells.

[Pex]

Agreed. 18 is high enough, even at 20th level, to be competent. I'd argue you can hold off on the 18 'till level 12 on certain builds that require two combat feats; 16 can hold you over 'till then. For a single-class Sorcerer though you do want it at 8th.

The question is whether what you get in return for not having 20 is worth it. In most games you probably wouldn't want to take the Linguist feat instead, for example.

That's why you play Variant Human, to have both feats and an 18 at 8th level.

You can have your cake and eat it too.

:smallwink:

[Ruslan]

For a Sorcerer, pretty much everything you do will be forcing saves and making spell attacks. +1 to everything may sound boring, but you know what's really boring? Having the enemies succeed on saves against your spells, and having your spell attacks miss is definitely boring.

Having said that, there are a few feats that can successfully compete with +2 CHA efficiency-wise, and are also juicy RP-wise, so feel free to take them if they fit the character concept:

Lucky
Alert
Inspiring Leader
Actor (only if you have an odd score somewhere, so on level 8 you can take +1 Cha/+1 something else)
Ritual Caster

As for Magic Initiate, I guess, if you really want a Familiar, that's the only way to nab one as a sorcerer.

If I took magic initiate, I'd either pick ... Warlock for access to Eldritch Blast No. No. NO. BAD OPTIMIZER! BAD!
Magic Initiate for Eldritch Blast is a terrible idea, because EB by itself, without Agonizing Blast, isn't that good. Why, it's only infinitesimally better than Fire Bolt, and spending a whole feat on such mild improvement is a waste.

[LordCdrMilitant]

IMO, it is almost always better to get either Lucky or Resilient (Dex/Con/Wis) instead of an ASI.

I've seen people say this, and I have to wonder why.

I'm of the opposite mindset, in general, that an ASI or other offensive feat is almost always better than a defensive feat.

[Jamesps]

I've seen people say this, and I have to wonder why.

I'm of the opposite mindset, in general, that an ASI or other offensive feat is almost always better than a defensive feat.

Lucky lets you reroll attack rolls and ability checks. As such it is a defensive and offensive and utility feat.

As for the resilient... If you're a different sort of caster resilient constitution is invaluable both for its general defensive value and for its help in maintaining spells. Haste or polymorph can be a game changer, but only if you can keep them going.

Resilient wisdom is good to avoid getting shut down.

Resilient dex is really just something you take if you wanted to increase your dexterity and you happened to have an odd stat. Works for gishy builds that are using booming blade or such.

[Zman]

Honestly, 16 is high enough to be competent. Now, if you are a control based character, and are making others take lots of saves, then yeah, having an 18 now and a 20 sooner rather than later is noticeable. But, for most casters having a 16 most of the game is more than enough to be competent.

[Tanarii]

My experience DMing many players that aren't even remotely optimizers is that a +2 bonus is plenty to carry you through as an effective* PC through level 8. I can't imagine that there's a sudden requirement to go up to +4 (or higher) bonus at level 12. So far as I can tell, the game math is balanced around a +3 to your primary start at level 8 ASI, and a +4 for your level 16 ASI, with a +5 being completely optional.

*effective doesn't mean optimized. Unfortunately this footnote is needed since last time I wrote this it was immediately misconstrued.

[Cespenar]

I've seen people say this, and I have to wonder why.

I'm of the opposite mindset, in general, that an ASI or other offensive feat is almost always better than a defensive feat.

Other offensive feats I'll give you. PAM or GWM or whatever are pretty powerful, obviously. But Resilients are good because it boosts your save-or-rip-up-your-sheets in a world where few precious things can boost them, not to mention the half ASI bonus tied in between. And Lucky is stupid good because it's three bouncy +5 equivalents that apply to whatever you are going to fail right now. The fact that you see your dice before choosing to use Lucky makes it even better than a +5 bonus, actually.

[MBControl]

I say big nope.

If you have a reasonably high score, and are using your resources for feats such as sharpshooter, or the like, that give you super advantages most of the time, it can be far more useful than an extra +1 on your attacks.

[Pex]

For my cleric I had initial concerns about choosing Healer feat over bumping Wisdom to 18 at level 4. (I like the healer role. My character is not a healbot.) I went with taking the feat. I chose wisely. I don't have to cast healing spells. The party conserves on HD and healing potions we aren't needing to short rest too much. Bad guys are still failing their saving throw against my spells a reasonable amount of times. I will bump Wisdom to 18 at level 8 since that's when Potent Casting comes into play, so it will make a difference. For other characters in other situations getting an 18 early will mean something. In my old game where I played a sorcerer pumping Charisma to 20 by level 8 was a high priority and the right choice. When I'm casting Twin Banishment I really need it to work. It is a strength of 5E that having a 20 is nice but not universally necessary.

Yes, I can say nice things about 5E. :smallwink:

[JAL_1138]

My experience DMing many players that aren't even remotely optimizers is that a +2 bonus is plenty to carry you through as an effective* PC through level 8. I can't imagine that there's a sudden requirement to go up to +4 (or higher) bonus at level 12. So far as I can tell, the game math is balanced around a +3 to your primary start at level 8 ASI, and a +4 for your level 16 ASI, with a +5 being completely optional.

*effective doesn't mean optimized. Unfortunately this footnote is needed since last time I wrote this it was immediately misconstrued.

Agreed. Regarding level 12, I have a character with a 16 in his attack stat at level 14 (because I took a two-level dip in another class and spent all his ASIs on feats; trying out a PAM+Warcaster+Spell Sniper Booming Blade build) and he's holding up just fine so far. +3 seems to work well enough at that level.

I haven't tried a character with only a +2 until 8th level, but it seems like it would certainly work well enough for a character to contribute. There's not that big a difference between a +2 and a +3, and a +3 has been working well enough for me for 14 levels, so I can't imagine a +2 wouldn't be serviceable at lower levels. It'll be noticeable (and for that matter, I'll probably start feeling that +3 for the two extra levels I'll have to wait for my level 16 ASI to take it to 18), but I can't see it rendering a character unusable or something. 5e's math is pretty forgiving.

[Tanarii]

It'll be noticeable (and for that matter, I'll probably start feeling that +3 for the two extra levels I'll have to wait for my level 16 ASI to take it to 18), but I can't see it rendering a character unusable or something. 5e's math is pretty forgiving.Really, that's the point I'm trying to make.

I'll emphasize that the campaign is no feats too ... so some (but by no means all) players who start with a 15 primary score are choosing to bump up a lower Dex or Con or secondary stat (typically to 14) at level 4. And they're not some huge weight around the party's neck by making that choice.

So once you start putting the potential for some quite lstrong alternative to ASIs in the form of feats into play, it not only becomes effective enough, but quite possibly optimal.

[Drackolus]

If you had empower and/or were fire, I would say the cha is better. As-is, not really. That said, magic initiate is not what I would take. Elemental affinity or warcaster would be stronger for you. Twinned haste is one of your best tricks, but losing that concentration is brutal.

[PeteNutButter]

Really, that's the point I'm trying to make.

I'll emphasize that the campaign is no feats too ... so some (but by no means all) players who start with a 15 primary score are choosing to bump up a lower Dex or Con or secondary stat (typically to 14) at level 4. And they're not some huge weight around the party's neck by making that choice.

So once you start putting the potential for some quite lstrong alternative to ASIs in the form of feats into play, it not only becomes effective enough, but quite possibly optimal.

This is where I like to point out that the difference between 16 and 18 is more than just the 5% people think it is. On martial characters in a white room it is roughly the difference between a 60% chance to deal 1d8+3 or 65% chance to deal 1d8+4. That's a DPR of 4.5 or 5.525 per attack. The difference there is 19%.

Now for a caster it is closer to the 5% as far as saves go, but if going the warlock route, it's back to 60% chance to deal 1d10+3 vs 65% chance to deal 1d10+4. That's a 17.5% difference in DPR.

These are significant numbers in my book, but it is still up to player to decide what is more valuable, this just gives a more realistic picture than 5%.

[Tanarii]

This is where I like to point out that the difference between 16 and 18 is more than just the 5% people think it is.
Not trying to claim its 5%. It varies greatly depending on what the base chance of success is against a specific creature. But it's always higher than 5% relative gain, because the comparison is (new% - old%)/new% not (new%-old%), and that's just on the success chance. For example, as was pointed out when this exact subject came up ... last week I think ... something like DC 16 vs DC 17 is a 20% reduction in saving throw chance if something has +0 to its stat. That's hardly insignificant.

Conversely, it's the variation on a d20 roll vs the +1 gain for any given particular roll is still fairly large, especially at mid levels. (Which is something people commonly complain about in regards to skills.)

If you're thinking in terms of optimizing (which at its root is what you're doing on one level or another), of course that matters. You have to consider the value compared to spending the ASI on Dex or Con or your secondary stat, or a Feat, to see if it's worth it to you.

[djreynolds]

I've just hit level 4 as a sorcerer, with a CHA stat of 16. While I could use my ASI to get my CHA to 18, easy, simple, +1s everywhere, etc, it seems kinda.... boring. So I'm contemplating taking the feat of magic initiate to get more cantrips and spells. I'm also considering multiclassing into warlock 1 or 2 after hitting 5th level and gaining 3rd level spells.

I took witch bolt because I thought using concentration to continuously deal d12 damage to 1-2 targets could be p useful in a fight, but its proved lackluster so I'm also thinkin of retrainin it for chromatic orb, or burning hands.

(Blue) Draconic Sorcerer 4, Half-Elf, CN
HP: 30, AC 16
STR 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.

Skill profs: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Perception, Persuasion, Stealth
Metamagics: Subtle Spell, Twinned Spell

Spells known:
Cantrips: Acid Splash, Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Message
1: Magic Missile, Witch Bolt, "Find Familiar"
2: Invisibility, Web




What do you all think?


I'm playing a wizard, and held off on increasing my intelligence for Resilient (Con).

See Geodude6, made IMO, a very good choice. Getting stun or paralyzed is huge at lower levels and helps out with concentration spells.

So you have to look at this from a few angles. Defense, offense, saves, attack, versatility, and the "party"

What I want to be and what the party needs to be successful? Warlock or bard would give you access to spells you do not have? Warlock gets protection from good/evil, and bard gets heroism... 2 good spells for combating your low wisdom save.

Now at 6th level you add your charisma modifier to your spells damage, every lightning spell you launch

Upping dex is a valid choice, but really for defense and landing booming blade.

elemental adept is good as well once you've gained that 6th level perk.

So in this instance, is there another team member who can fix stuff like fear, charm, paralysis? Are you in melee enough where this is a bigger deal

I would personally go for charisma at 4th, and then elemental adept at 8th as a dragon sorcerer.