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View Full Version : Replacing Magic with... Magic? [Semi-Setting]



ilovefire
2007-07-31, 09:59 PM
Well, I was just thinking, after reading the Warblade's 'Adaptation' blurb in BoNS, on replacing magic with... magic. Hear me out.

In this world, Clerics, Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers, Warmages, Favored Souls... if it is a full caster, it does not exist--except in the hands of the Ultra-Elite. There is excactly one person in the world per full caster class that IS a full caster. And they are the leaders--the Emperors, the Tyrants. One wizard, one cleric, one druid... (And I count the Shadowcaster as a fullcaster, so...)

Well, the Average People (Adventurers, too) Adapted. They developed ways to achieve supernatural power through language (truenaming), the binding of these strange nonbeings called vestiges (binding), shaping pure soul-energy into magical items (meldshaping), channeling hte powers of naturally-magical entities into eldritch abilites (variant Warlock that dosen't have to have fiendish heritage or be CG, TN, CN, LE, NE, or CE.), manipulating the world through music (bards), totemic worship and emulation of dragons (Dragon Shamen and Dragonfire adepts), and by using pure martial prowess in order to overcome the shortcomings of a lack of mystical might (Martial Adepts, minus the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand schools.)

Now, most people in this setting would know SOME of at least one of these. (IE, the standard commoner would actually be a Commoner 1/one of the above classes 1.) As a matter of fact, these classes are very common. Extremely Common. The average population has 100% of it's people with a level in one of the aforementioned classes. This makes this a high-magic setting.

But at the same time, it would be low-magic. No wizards, druids, clerics, warmages, shadowcasters, artificiers, favoured souls, dread necromancers, archivists... No full casts. At all.

Has this been done before? If so, was it successful? If not, do you think this may be an interesting idea to try and implement?

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-31, 10:07 PM
(Martial Adepts, minus the setting sun and shadow hand schools.)

Just curious why you're dropping the setting sun school. Its the Desert Wind School that is the flashy su. ability school (that and shadow hand). Setting Sun is about counters, most of which are not supernatural.

ilovefire
2007-07-31, 10:10 PM
Ah, I meant Desert Wind. Ig et the two mixed up sometimes... going to edit now. Any other thoughts, though?

The_Werebear
2007-08-01, 12:29 AM
Interesting, for certain.

It does feed into the idea that if you aren't a full caster, you are essentially screwed. Magic items would also be in a rather limited supply as well. The Full casters would have better things to do than crank out dozens of Rings of Protection +1's.

Gralamin
2007-08-01, 12:50 AM
And whenever their is a lack of magic items, Meldshapers do well.

It sounds interesting, thats for sure. Any Psionics?

tannish2
2007-08-01, 01:02 AM
from what i remember warlocks can make items like artificers onece they hit level 12... or maybe they can just use them as if they had that class, idk, anyway, will it have artificers? it would add magic items back in, but there would still be many of the difficulties of a low magic campaign, like not being able to get a rez, or a restoration anywhere, teleporting being a bit lmiited, to small distances by warlocks and shadowdancers, otherwise terribly expensive, and the lack of healing, it might be a fun campaign

HidaTsuzua
2007-08-01, 02:06 AM
It does sound similar to a humor campaign I was thinking about running. Long ago, the world was peaceful. People practices psience and all was well. Bards lived happily as they practiced their own unique type of magic.

But then the Trio came. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids come to the world and unleashed their powers upon it. Victorious, they stopped out psionics. Then a small group learned the secret to psionics (the PCs) and will bring the fight back to the Trio.

It would have been a cheesy Wizard/Cleric/Druid game vs the PC type of game going for in-game metagame commenting, the Tower of the Warbler King, and other oddities. I might run a PbP of it at some point.

Jimp
2007-08-01, 07:44 AM
Paint me a curious shade of intrigued!

I'd actually be very interested in this kind of setting. A lot of the semi-casters that you have listed are my favourite classes :smallbiggrin:

Everyman
2007-08-01, 09:34 AM
Wow...that's an interesting set-up.

How exactly do you plan on handling equipment? Can I assume that public magic gear is probably of warlock-make?

selfcritical
2007-08-01, 11:07 AM
Well, I was just thinking, after reading the Warblade's 'Adaptation' blurb in BoNS, on replacing magic with... magic. Hear me out.

In this world, Clerics, Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers, Warmages, Favored Souls... if it is a full caster, it does not exist--except in the hands of the Ultra-Elite. There is excactly one person in the world per full caster class that IS a full caster. And they are the leaders--the Emperors, the Tyrants. One wizard, one cleric, one druid... (And I count the Shadowcaster as a fullcaster, so...)

Well, the Average People (Adventurers, too) Adapted. They developed ways to achieve supernatural power through language (truenaming), the binding of these strange nonbeings called vestiges (binding), shaping pure soul-energy into magical items (meldshaping), channeling hte powers of naturally-magical entities into eldritch abilites (variant Warlock that dosen't have to have fiendish heritage or be CG, TN, CN, LE, NE, or CE.), manipulating the world through music (bards), totemic worship and emulation of dragons (Dragon Shamen and Dragonfire adepts), and by using pure martial prowess in order to overcome the shortcomings of a lack of mystical might (Martial Adepts, minus the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand schools.)

Now, most people in this setting would know SOME of at least one of these. (IE, the standard commoner would actually be a Commoner 1/one of the above classes 1.) As a matter of fact, these classes are very common. Extremely Common. The average population has 100% of it's people with a level in one of the aforementioned classes. This makes this a high-magic setting.

But at the same time, it would be low-magic. No wizards, druids, clerics, warmages, shadowcasters, artificiers, favoured souls, dread necromancers, archivists... No full casts. At all.

Has this been done before? If so, was it successful? If not, do you think this may be an interesting idea to try and implement?

I think keeping the contact with nonhuman entities requirement for warlocks works pretty well here. Someone so bent on striking back at their magely overlords that they will make themselves inhuman

selfcritical
2007-08-01, 11:50 AM
Idea! When last a crack unit of the greatest warriors in the world(Lvl 20 fighters) confronte Arius, the Throne of Wizardy, they were tossed around by his fell magics like so much hay. As Arius froze his limbs wracked his body with pain, the Captain of Red Company find a moment of eerie calm, and walked forward, unheld by the eldritch weave. In the fleeting moments before the Throne's summoned beasts finished ripping him apart, he uttered the procphecy of the Sword Saint "You pour unnatural energies into the world, make it dance, and presume your knowledge is without peer, you understanding without fault. There lay greater truths, and wisdom beyond your feeble means. When one has mastered the Sword above all others, the secrets of Creation will unfold before him, and all your petty tricks will be as nothing. The time is at hand."

All across the world, men who held their blades, who sought them not only as tools, but as instruments of mastery, heard the call. Something whispered and drew them out to the road, to seek perfection of technique, and to test their steel against one another, until one would be without peer.

{orgin story for Martial adepts}

Roderick_BR
2007-08-01, 02:08 PM
Making the full casters into "elite NPC classes"? I guess some DMs do that sometimes (I plan in making a campaign with mainly ToB classes, with the only caster being bards or classes with half casting level, and having the full caster as NPCs)

ilovefire
2007-08-01, 03:26 PM
Gralamin: Yes, there are psionics, but full-manifestation classes (Psions, Wilders, and I forget if anything in CP is full-manifestation) follow the same rules as the full-caster classes.

Tarkahn: As one of the Full caster Important NPCs would be an Artificier, and as noted warlocks can function as artificiers in a limited fashion once they hit 12, magic loot would be handled similiarly as normal, but a bit weaker and rarer (IE: Maximum weapon or armor bonus (including special abilities) would be +5, not +10. Maximum bonus on statboosters +2... basically, halve everything and round down when needed. Magic Items would cost 1.1 times the normal amount, but with the limit on bonuses they would not be to expensive I think.)

Selfcritical: I like that idea for a creation-story for the Martial Adepts. Consider it borrowed, with your permission, if you odn't mind.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-01, 03:34 PM
Just fluff wize, how come the Uber-classes aren't accessable to most? Outsider curse/bloodline requirement? Lack of the godly permission? key info. kept secret except for a tiny elite?

If the PCs cant have them (great idea) then the question becomes why, if clerics just need to BELIEVE really strongly and Wizards just need the right books and practise do you have some kind of secret police hunting upstarts or a devine edict limiting numbers of each class?

Edit: halving or otherwise cranking down the WBL guidelines also radically reduce the range of available cheese and mean the economy doesn't tremble at the nknees whenever a midlevel party does a single dungeon crawl.

ilovefire
2007-08-01, 03:45 PM
MostlyHarmful: Fluff-wise, it would be for different reasons. for the Scholarly-Types (Wizards, Artificiers, Psions, Archivists, anything INT-based.), it is because it is a closely-guarded secret that was sworn after a large war to only be passed on to one person--and one person only, and then only near the current possessors death. (Possibly because of a large war in the past involving magical energies.)

For the Belief-Types (WIS-based casters), it would be because the single pantheon of gods in this setting would declare only ONE mortal at a time as a true enough believe to recieve their full divine powers, due to the aforementioned war, where Clerics on all sides waged great havok. Of course, you get the non-cleric divine casters--those sort of sneak through the cracks of divine energy, but there's still only one for much the same reasons--whatever they believe in will only let one being have it's full power.

For the Inborn-Types (CHA based), it would be a curse that there would only ever be one, and that one the firstborn child of the previous owner of that power, or the nearest person to them on their death if they had no children. The curse would have been placed by the Scholarly-Types to insure that the Great War of magic would never be repeated again, if they could help it.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-01, 03:49 PM
MostlyHarmful: Fluff-wise, it would be for different reasons. for the Scholarly-Types (Wizards, Artificiers, Psions, Archivists, anything INT-based.), it is because it is a closely-guarded secret that was sworn after a large war to only be passed on to one person--and one person only, and then only near the current possessors death. (Possibly because of a large war in the past involving magical energies.)

For the Belief-Types (WIS-based casters), it would be because the single pantheon of gods in this setting would declare only ONE mortal at a time as a true enough believe to recieve their full divine powers, due to the aforementioned war, where Clerics on all sides waged great havok.

For the Inborn-Types (CHA based), it would be a curse that there would only ever be one, and that one the firstborn child of the previous owner of that power, or the nearest person to them on their death if they had no children. The curse would have been placed by the Scholarly-Types to insure that the Great War of magic would never be repeated again, if they could help it.

Perfect, thought out and comprehensive with flavourful fluff and considered cruch, :smallsmile:

Roderick_BR
2007-08-01, 03:56 PM
It doesn't even need to be so hard to have few full casters.
Wizards would require a special "gift", other than being able to read, like in Lord of the Rings, where there is only a handful of wizards in the world. It just isn't for anyone.

For inborn casters, there would just be very few people to actually gain powers.

For the believers, the "god's chosen" idea works neatly. You'd have to allow the non-lawful good paladin variants too, so any deity and religion has his "holy warriors". The only difference is that people with access to raw power (clerics, druids) would be a few selected.

I'm yoinking these ideas for my campaigns :smallsmile:

ilovefire
2007-08-01, 04:00 PM
Roderick: Yeah, I usually allow the non-LG versions of Paladins--it only makes sense to me. (I don't really like the alignment system that well anyway, but eh)

Standard Believers could be anything, of course. Devout Believers would be Adepts. Martial Believers would be Paladins, Rangers, Monks, or devout Fighters.

And I'm glad I managed to help you with your campaign! I'm planning on fleshing this idea out into a full-fledged campaign setting,b ut that will probably take awhile, since school just got in for me.

puppyavenger
2007-08-01, 04:37 PM
great isea but what about the creatures with monsters with inborn casting like dragons and rashaka?

mostlyharmful
2007-08-01, 04:41 PM
just cause they're in the MM doesn't mean they exist. And if they do then they become something that armies take on with siege equipment and devine aide rather than a DnD PC team monstrous BBEG

puppyavenger
2007-08-01, 04:49 PM
So they hunted and killed opff a race that at it's most powerful can probably figure out what you are going to do with your life by watching you for a day and then convince you to commit suicide with a single sentance?

ilovefire
2007-08-01, 04:51 PM
none of the above, from how I see it--these races are just very, very rare, so do their work in secret, whatever their work may be, revealing themselves to certain people in order to allow those people to channel their power (warlocks.) Of cousre, then those warlocks could, concievably, use a mixture of blood ritual and knowledge-passing to allow others to use the power--hence how common they are.

puppyavenger
2007-08-01, 05:07 PM
any ideas on how dragons relate to the sorceror?

ilovefire
2007-08-01, 05:08 PM
I was never much for the dragon's blood explanation of sorcerers... I much prefered there to be no true explanation, but a whole bunch of conflicting theories. Keeps the academics busy, it does.

puppyavenger
2007-08-01, 05:13 PM
sorry for the unclear question, would the powers consider them threats to be killed, peers to be traded with, strange things to be ignored or curiosities to be examined?

selfcritical
2007-08-01, 05:24 PM
MostlyHarmful: Fluff-wise, it would be for different reasons. for the Scholarly-Types (Wizards, Artificiers, Psions, Archivists, anything INT-based.), it is because it is a closely-guarded secret that was sworn after a large war to only be passed on to one person--and one person only, and then only near the current possessors death. (Possibly because of a large war in the past involving magical energies.)

For the Belief-Types (WIS-based casters), it would be because the single pantheon of gods in this setting would declare only ONE mortal at a time as a true enough believe to recieve their full divine powers, due to the aforementioned war, where Clerics on all sides waged great havok. Of course, you get the non-cleric divine casters--those sort of sneak through the cracks of divine energy, but there's still only one for much the same reasons--whatever they believe in will only let one being have it's full power.

For the Inborn-Types (CHA based), it would be a curse that there would only ever be one, and that one the firstborn child of the previous owner of that power, or the nearest person to them on their death if they had no children. The curse would have been placed by the Scholarly-Types to insure that the Great War of magic would never be repeated again, if they could help it.


If hitting all classes, you'd have two full divine casters- One cleric and one favored soul- The Heirophant and the Prophet.

puppyavenger
2007-08-01, 05:25 PM
If hitting all classes, you'd have two full divine casters- One cleric and one favored soul- The Heirophant and the Prophet.

And the druid.

selfcritical
2007-08-01, 05:40 PM
I was never much for the dragon's blood explanation of sorcerers... I much prefered there to be no true explanation, but a whole bunch of conflicting theories. Keeps the academics busy, it does.

When there's just the one, explanations make a bit more sense. When there's just the one, blood of dragons isn't cool enough. Blood of Tiamat, however.......

Sulecrist
2007-08-01, 05:41 PM
And the druid.

And the Archivist.

goat
2007-08-01, 06:12 PM
Hmm, truenamers played RAW WITHOUT relatively easy access to skill-boosting kit are going to be even more crippled.

Yakk
2007-08-01, 06:50 PM
For the pure casters, I'd make each of them half-dragons, the children of Tiamat. Each chose a different path (or maybe there isn't "just one", but rather "just a handful").

In this world, you cannot channel that level of magic without being the spawn of a dragon.

Beef up the half-dragon template: grant beefy stats, large size, polymorph to their humanoid race, natural armor, regeneration, and immortality.

The Dragons tore the world apart, but their spawn still exist, and each controls a chunk of the world. They are extremely infertile -- there are a handful of quarter dragons, and almost all quarter dragons do not have the power of their sires -- and play games with the lives of mortals against each other.

About 8 to 12 Rulers.
Each have between 10 and 100 first-generation spawn.
The Upper Noble class are 1/8th Dragon, and number about 500 to 5000 per Ruler.

Lesser magics, as you noted, are easy for mortals to grasp -- and almost all of them have grasped it.

Give all NPC classes a spell list, and use something like this for their spell progression:


Per Day/Known
0 1 2 3 4 5
1 2/2 - - - - -
2 2/2 1/1 - - - -
3 3/3 1/1 - - - -
4 3/3 1/2 - - - -
5 3/3 2/2 - - - -
6 3/3 2/2 1/1 - - -
7 3/3 3/3 1/1 - - -
8 3/3 3/3 1/2 - - -
9 3/3 3/3 2/2 - - -
10 3/3 3/3 2/2 1/1 - -
11 3/3 3/3 3/3 1/1 - -
12 3/3 3/3 3/3 1/2 - -
13 3/3 3/3 3/3 2/2 - -
14 3/3 3/3 3/3 2/2 1/1 -
15 3/3 3/3 3/3 3/3 1/1 -
16 3/3 3/3 3/3 3/3 1/2 -
17 3/3 3/3 3/3 3/3 2/2 -
18 3/3 3/3 3/3 3/3 2/2 1/1
19 3/3 3/3 3/3 3/3 3/3 1/1
20 3/3 3/3 3/3 3/3 3/3 1/2


Commoners and Warriors and Experts progress at 1 every 2 levels. You'd have to make up a spell list for them. (Fighters and Barbarians should get access to the Warrior spell table, and Rogues the Expert spell table).

This represents "folk magic". Minor healing, repair, and enhancing magics.

Nobles progress at 1 every level, and use their ancestor ruler's spell list (so a L 10 Noble would have access to first through 3rd level spells from a pure caster class).

Rangers and Paladins use this table instead: you will need to create 5th and 0th level spells for them (this front loads their spells for them, and makes sure that a Warrior/Fighter can't cast spells better than the caster hybrids...)

puppyavenger
2007-08-02, 07:08 PM
For the other divine titles how about, Forest lord and lorekeeper?

ilovefire
2007-08-02, 08:32 PM
Yakk: That's a good idea, but isn't really what I'm going for--I want to 'eliminate', for lack of a better term, all full casters, and most 'standard' spellcasters. I think yours would probably be easier, yes, but I do prefer my first idea (which is actually similiar to Dark Sun), where every average NPC (commoner, Expert, Noble, or Warrior) is an NPC class 1/Non-standard (or non-full) caster 1.

puppyavenger: Hmm, i'll think about it.

Roderick_BR
2007-08-02, 09:50 PM
I'm thinking about letting my players use scrolls through the Use Magic Device.
I may just keep it cross class for them, so they can't go cheese with it.
That's like AD&D, where characters could use some low level scrolls for emergencies.
Maybe nerfing it a bit too, allowing them only the lesser spells, like protections and healing spells, that is what they'll be looking for more.

puppyavenger
2007-08-02, 10:28 PM
Background for the psion.


When the war was finished three psions, a mind flayer, a elan and a 1/4 feind 1/4 dragon psionic lich illumian:smallamused: , decided to bind all the psionic power in the world to themselves. Unfourtunatly as is usually the case with such mighty proportion, it did not turn out as planed. It sucked the psionic power of every psion in the world with a tiny shred of their mind, including the three who manifested the power. The resulting conglomeraate of minds was divorced from memory and emotion, as logic without any purpose might as well not exist, so it drew on the tiny points of memories that it drew from every psion. It found amoung the many conflicting thoughts two things, a desire to increase knoledge, whether for good or ill and a desire to protect those dear to it. To facalitate these goals as best as it could understand it, it took the physical form of a human claimed the city around it as a protectorate, an set about making it the greatest reposatory of knoledge and psionic lore in the world. To t subjects and those who speak of it ou of earshot he is known as "the Many"

sorry for horrible grammer and spelling and 2 thoughts.
1. Are you using the magwright npc class
2. We need a psionic npc class


EDIT shouldn't this be in hombrew?


Heres some god ideas


pantheon heads

Hythren of the breaking dawn (CG)
Zerios of the eternel night (LE)

other importent gods

Zeth the shining bastion (NG) God of moon stars and trying to do good in a time of evil
Sailiam of the blessed rain (LG) god of agriculture rain, respite,and civilazation
Brek'thar, the perfect day (LN) god of physical and mental perfection
Lewrth Drak the eclipse (CN) god of change, speeed, and the moment where a single action can change the world
Aserkry the buring hate (NE) god of sadism drout crop faulire, torture and false salvation.
Tar-neth-kery-ney the starless void (CE) god of destruction madness and darkness.

Any ideas for a LG one?

EDIT 3 mind if I start working on a actual setting for this?

Edit again added short descriptions and thought of a LG one

ilovefire
2007-08-03, 03:12 PM
Heck, I'll move this to the Homebrew thing and make it a semi-community project. Seems a good idea--I'll put all the fluff and crunch I havei n the first post, and then we can work from there, eh?

puppyavenger
2007-08-03, 03:27 PM
Great when you set it up link it please as the homebrew board is not exactly "static" please:smallbiggrin:

ilovefire
2007-08-03, 04:12 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2979462#post2979462 (Link to it!)

'ere we go 'ere we go 'ere we go!

selfcritical
2007-08-03, 05:20 PM
You also need to to decide which semi-magical types are produced as servants of the Great Lords, and which ones are made by secret and heretical means, and inherently undermine their sources of power.

The magic of the "resistance"

All the incarnum classes
Binders (Binding and use of incarnum should be considered incredibly blasphemous practice by the churches embodied in the servants of the sole Cleric, Favored Soul, and Archvist. Incarnum draws directly from the wellspring that the divine is parasitic on and binding draws back beings that the divine long ago banished as rivals.).Both of the above should be the powers granted to the underground threats.
Warlock(people infusing themselves with insane extraplanar powers so that they can strike out agains their arcane overlords= threat).
All Martial Adepts

I'm not sure about the dragon shaman and dragonfire adept. They make sense both as heretical religons, and as the servants of the sole sorceror.

All varieties of paladins and rangers work well as servants of the divine caster-lords, and the incarnate and crusader provide good counterparts for them.

Duskblade is definately the elite guard of the mage-king.