Upgrading magic items

[Barstro]

Specific example; Headband of Vast Intelligence +4 being upgraded to +6

I'm pretty sure I know all the costs, etc. for upgrading from +4 to +6. Does the PC get to actually use the item at +4 during the process, or are the delicate weaves of magic so fragile that the item must be safely stowed away during the days it takes to complete the upgrade?

[Psyren]

This isn't specified anywhere. Personally I see no problem with it - it's not like you're upgrading a motherboard or performing surgery.

[Coidzor]

Specific example; Headband of Vast Intelligence +4 being upgraded to +6

I'm pretty sure I know all the costs, etc. for upgrading from +4 to +6. Does the PC get to actually use the item at +4 during the process, or are the delicate weaves of magic so fragile that the item must be safely stowed away during the days it takes to complete the upgrade?

I'd say that the main thing is that they can't wear it while working on it, but all that would really mean is that their Spellcraft modifier would go down by a small amount while they're working on it. This isn't much of an issue when they're Taking 10 and should be able to easily make it anyway.

[Barstro]

I'd say that the main thing is that they can't wear it while working on it, but all that would really mean is that their Spellcraft modifier would go down by a small amount while they're working on it. This isn't much of an issue when they're Taking 10 and should be able to easily make it anyway.

I do not fully understand your "ruling".

A) They cannot wear it at all for the several days they craft the item, OR
B) They cannot wear the item during the specific hours each day while they craft the item

EDIT: And I agree; that specific item cannot be used for the craft bonus. Guess I should have used a belt as an example. :smallredface:

[Florian]

I think it´s a reference to the 24h clause you need to wear an item before you get the full effect.
Like you shut the item off while you work at it, regain the temp. bonus afterwards and then the 24h start.

[Coidzor]

I do not fully understand your "ruling".

A) They cannot wear it at all for the several days they craft the item, OR
B) They cannot wear the item during the specific hours each day while they craft the item

EDIT: And I agree; that specific item cannot be used for the craft bonus. Guess I should have used a belt as an example. :smallredface:

I mean that you cannot physically wear the headband on your head while you are working on it for several hours at a time.

Do you see a practical way to futz about with crafting a headband while you're wearing it?

[Barstro]

Do you see a practical way to futz about with crafting a headband while you're wearing it?

Well, nothing specifically says HOW the magic enters the Wondrous Items. Perhaps said crafter makes all the power-holding runes when first fabricating it and then wears the item in the appropriate slot in order to imbue it with the requisite arcane energies. Similarly, the cursed headband of -6 intelligence is from a crafter who was hammering the gold inlays while wearing it.

[Psyren]

Do you see a practical way to futz about with crafting a headband while you're wearing it?

Why are you assuming that "futzing" is needed?

Sit in calm area, inhale expensive incense, meditate and channel power into the thing on your head; that would be my method.

[Coidzor]

Why are you assuming that "futzing" is needed?

Sit in calm area, inhale expensive incense, meditate and channel power into the thing on your head; that would be my method.

Mostly because you need a workshop area to do it in and you suffer reduced progress when you don't have such a place, unless I'm crossing some wires here.

[Psyren]

Mostly because you need a workshop area to do it in and you suffer reduced progress when you don't have such a place, unless I'm crossing some wires here.

Nah - "The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items." Nothing about it needing to be a "workshop."

[Jay R]

Since there is no clear rule in the books, this is up to the DM.

I would rule that you can't use it, just as you can't use a sword in the middle of replacing the hilt, and you can't use a cart in the middle of replacing a wheel, and you can't wear armor while fixing a broken strap.

I would also probably not start an encounter in which its use was crucial. But telling them they can use it in the middle of an upgrade serves no purpose except to reduce suspense and thrills in a game we play to experience suspense and thrills.

But it wouldn't surprise me, or bother me, if another DM ruled differently.

[Psyren]

But telling them they can use it in the middle of an upgrade serves no purpose except to reduce suspense and thrills in a game we play to experience suspense and thrills.


By "suspense and thrills" do you mean "competence?"

[Barstro]

I would rule that you can't use it, just as you can't use a sword in the middle of replacing the hilt, and you can't use a cart in the middle of replacing a wheel, and you can't wear armor while fixing a broken strap.

Making a +4 into a +6 costs 10,000 and takes a base of 20 days. I believe all that is involved is just twisting the arcane powers counterclockwise.

Replacing a hilt takes a few hours, but involves dismantling the sword. The wheel is off the cart (but it can still be used to store items). Depending on the strap, you can wear the armor (but you cannot fight with some blacksmith tugging on your shoulder).

There is a vast disparity between how long the process lasts and the amount of physical alteration is necessary during that time period. I'd agree with your argument more if it were known (or even suspected) that the upgrade involves "discharging" the helm and holding the arcane power in limbo while the additional power is added.

Damn, I might have just talked myself into it not being able to be used. Curse you, Jay R.

[Florian]

If you consider that strange, thing about how it looks when a Master Craftsman goes at it using Craft (Armor).

[Jay R]

By "suspense and thrills" do you mean "competence?"

No, I don't, since the two have nothing in common. I also don't think a player whose character is missing one of his items is inherently incompetent. Certainly my players have been competent when dealing with difficult situations.

Occasionally having characters have to deal without all their accumulated stuff allows some increased challenges, like when Iron Man's armor doesn't work in Iron Man 3, when Superman loses his powers in superman 2, when any character drops his weapon in a fight, when Kirk is trapped on the planet without a phaser or communicator, when the hyper-space jump doesn't work in Star Wars 5, when Roy's green-hilted sword is broken, and any number of other literary examples.

I don't think people should lose all their toys all the time, but the possibility should exist, and it should occasionally happen.

[Psyren]

No, I don't, since the two have nothing in common. I also don't think a player whose character is missing one of his items is inherently incompetent. Certainly my players have been competent when dealing with difficult situations.

It's an item that can give you a significant bonus to do the very thing you're trying to do - especially if you're pressed for time and trying to upgrade quickly, which raises the DC.



Occasionally having characters have to deal without all their accumulated stuff allows some increased challenges, like when Iron Man's armor doesn't work in Iron Man 3, when Superman loses his powers in superman 2, when any character drops his weapon in a fight, when Kirk is trapped on the planet without a phaser or communicator, when the hyper-space jump doesn't work in Star Wars 5, when Roy's green-hilted sword is broken, and any number of other literary examples.

I don't think people should lose all their toys all the time, but the possibility should exist, and it should occasionally happen.

I have no problem with that either, but don't obfuscate - you're not actually talking about occasional plot-based denials. You're talking about a baseline ruling that would apply to every instance of upgrading a Headband of Intellect ever. That is what I disagree with.

[denthor]

simple answer no. You have to dismantle the item to upgrade. How do you use something that is dismantled.

You should be in a safe place if not can a fight break out? if so could all of the metals and other components be damaged? If they are damaged do they have to be replaced? liquids boil and properties are changed. These are the problems associated with crafting there is always a random roll you make it wrong. Then it is a cursed item or worse yet does not work at all.

So the next question is why would it work correctly only when you put the headband on to recover spells for one hour you should be using to work on the item?

[Psyren]

simple answer no. You have to dismantle the item to upgrade. How do you use something that is dismantled.

Page reference for this?

[Barstro]

You should be in a safe place if not can a fight break out?

I feel like this question shows a misunderstanding of my original question.

Without other steps, it takes 20 days to change a +4 helm to a +6 helm at eight hours of work per day. This isn't about a fight breaking out while the PC is working on the item. This is about the PC being done with work for the day and the party getting ambushed while they are sitting around the fire telling jokes.

I have seen no ruling that says something needs to be physically dismantled to upgrade. In fact, I'd suggest that the rule would be the opposite, since the physical helm is already made, just the magic placed into it has be upgraded.


there is always a random roll you make it wrong.
That is a single roll, at the end, that does not change simply because "orcs attack you on day four".

[Shark Uppercut]

This isn't specified anywhere. Personally I see no problem with it - it's not like you're upgrading a motherboard or performing surgery.
IMO upgrading a magic item, by magical crafting, is exactly like that.


Page reference for this?
Well, don't be rude. We all know there is no RAW for this.
The best answer to to ask your DM.

[Psyren]

IMO upgrading a magic item, by magical crafting, is exactly like that.


Well, don't be rude. We all know there is no RAW for this.
The best answer to to ask your DM.

How on earth was that rude? :smallconfused: It's a genuine question. The folks (including you) saying it works "exactly like that" may have read a rule that I simply missed, so asking for that is perfectly reasonable.

But if instead there truly is no RAW, and it is up to DM ruling, I'm explaining exactly why I would rule the way I do.

[Jay R]

It's an item that can give you a significant bonus to do the very thing you're trying to do - especially if you're pressed for time and trying to upgrade quickly, which raises the DC.

That only changes my analogies. I wouldn't allow it, for the same reason that you can't upgrade a soldering iron using the same soldering iron, or use a workbench as a surface to hold the workbench you're reinforcing.


I have no problem with that either, but don't obfuscate - you're not actually talking about occasional plot-based denials. You're talking about a baseline ruling that would apply to every instance of upgrading a Headband of Intellect ever. That is what I disagree with.

A. No, it would not apply to "every instance of upgrading a Headband of Intellect ever." It would only apply when the PC is upgrading her own Headband, and there is no other Headband available. I have no idea how rare or common that is, but it is certainly not "every instance ... ever."

B. OK, that's fine. Like I said, "But it wouldn't surprise me, or bother me, if another DM ruled differently. "

[Psyren]

That only changes my analogies. I wouldn't allow it, for the same reason that you can't upgrade a soldering iron using the same soldering iron, or use a workbench as a surface to hold the workbench you're reinforcing.

How about listening to a piece of music while you're working on refining it? It soothes your mind and helps you focus, and you don't have to stop playing it in order to layer in new phrases and chords. Or touching up a relaxing painting while you're looking at it.

I'm not saying your analogies are wrong, but they are not the only ones. Treating upgrading a magic item like a blacksmithing project is a valid worldview, but a myopic one too. Especially since magic - the thing you're adding more of to the headband - is not tangible like a soldering iron or workbench. It's intangible, like music.


A. No, it would not apply to "every instance of upgrading a Headband of Intellect ever." It would only apply when the PC is upgrading her own Headband, and there is no other Headband available. I have no idea how rare or common that is, but it is certainly not "every instance ... ever."

Point - but it's pretty unrealistic, given their cost as a percentage of WBL, to expect most characters to have a spare headband lying around. If they had that kind of scratch, upgrading their items would be pretty unnecessary.

[Barstro]

That only changes my analogies. I wouldn't allow it, for the same reason that you can't upgrade a soldering iron using the same soldering iron, or use a workbench as a surface to hold the workbench you're reinforcing.


Well;
If I'm taking a soldering iron that has a thin and weak cord, I could quite easily strip through the insulation above the weak part, twist a stronger cord to it, and delicately get enough power through the weak part to melt enough solder onto the new joint. Then unplug and cut off the bypassed part and power it through the new cord. The Iron (Helm) was already complete, I just improved the power flow (enhancement bonus).

I can also easily still use a workbench that I'm reinforcing. There's no "holding the bench to itself". I'm using the bench to hold the tools as I craft the piece of wood used to fabricate the new cross brace.

Your examples seem to support Psyren's position as it relates to upgrading magical qualities.

[denthor]

Then explain the process for increasing an enchantment where is the gold pieces you are using going? do you pile them around the item or do you purchase something? rules as written do not say just gives a number based on a formula.


I understood this during the bard story hour . You missed the point that in order pick up the extra spells you must be wearing the item during study time.

So you study from 6 am to 7 am then get to work on the item till 4 pm item is off your head you can not get benifits your skill points go down what happens to the extra spells? (examples with an 18 intel you get 4 1st level spells 20 intel gets you 6 1st level spell headband must be worn. You then remove headband for 8 hours no lunch what happens to those 2 spells?) I would say they are lost.

If you rule any other way this is the abuse that can be perpetrated. 8 mages each one passes the headband for the extra spells each hour retains all extra spells for the entire period of time that there is no attack. ten hours or 15 days. each day there is no attack 8 more mages can get bonus spells until there is an attack. Show me rules as written that says we can not do that. common sense must prevail at some time.

I brought up attack because with out precaution it can happen in the field. which reading your original question it seemed even after your campfire comment you are under the stars rather than in a building. My fault for assuming not asking.

Listening to music? Your going to hire performers no radio in D&D all live bands.

In a game I'm playing in the mage could not wait to get a spell in his spell book fight broke out in the cave we were sheltering in not only did he not participate actively told the attacking undead he was studying and he should be left alone. He blamed the party for ruining the study time because he lost concentration ruined the scroll. said we should have died silently in order to let him have the time to memorize the scroll and then put it in his book.

[Psyren]

Then explain the process for increasing an enchantment where is the gold pieces you are using going? do you pile them around the item or do you purchase something? rules as written do not say just gives a number based on a formula.

I justified that several posts ago. Buy expensive incense, meditate, channel more magic into headband, done. The details are up to the DM to determine.



Listening to music? Your going to hire performers no radio in D&D all live bands.

That was an analogy directed at Jay R. There is no workbench or soldering gun either.

[Jay R]

How about listening to a piece of music while you're working on refining it? It soothes your mind and helps you focus, and you don't have to stop playing it in order to layer in new phrases and chords. Or touching up a relaxing painting while you're looking at it.

Oh, I agree that you could use spells in the process. But the headband is a physical thing. It's more akin to using the piano while you're upgrading it


I'm not saying your analogies are wrong, but they are not the only ones.

Agreed. That's why my position includes, "But it wouldn't surprise me, or bother me, if another DM ruled differently." I'm the one whose position is based on the idea that multiple approaches could be used.

To disagree with my position requires you to show that my analogies are wrong, not that there are other possible right ones.


Treating upgrading a magic item like a blacksmithing project is a valid worldview, but a myopic one too. Especially since magic - the thing you're adding more of to the headband - is not tangible like a soldering iron or workbench. It's intangible, like music.

I can see somebody making a decision on that basis. But what I am adding it to is a tangible thing, a headband. And that's a legitimate approach, too.


Point - but it's pretty unrealistic, given their cost as a percentage of WBL, to expect most characters to have a spare headband lying around. If they had that kind of scratch, upgrading their items would be pretty unnecessary.

Most parties, not most characters.

It's not unrealistic to hire that kind of work out, or to have two higher level casters in the party, both of whom have headbands. My current 13th level party has two. In any event, I specifically said that "I have no idea how rare or common that is". This was just an argument against the exaggeration that that it applied to "every instance .. ever".


Well;
If I'm taking a soldering iron that has a thin and weak cord, I could quite easily strip through the insulation above the weak part, twist a stronger cord to it, and delicately get enough power through the weak part to melt enough solder onto the new joint. Then unplug and cut off the bypassed part and power it through the new cord. The Iron (Helm) was already complete, I just improved the power flow (enhancement bonus).

That's certainly a basis on which you could rule differently from me, as I have repeatedly said you could. It is not an argument against my ruling unless you can show that the rules make it clear that the headband can be used in the process of magical augmentation.


I can also easily still use a workbench that I'm reinforcing. There's no "holding the bench to itself". I'm using the bench to hold the tools as I craft the piece of wood used to fabricate the new cross brace.

That analogy works only if you believe that working on a headband on my forehead where I cannot see it is as easy as working on a workbench on the floor in front of me where I can see it.

You can certainly make a decision about how magic items work that would allow that, but it isn't inherently in the rules. As I said, "But it wouldn't surprise me, or bother me, if another DM ruled differently."


Your examples seem to support Psyren's position as it relates to upgrading magical qualities.

Well, of course. My position specifically states that he could rule otherwise.

You have given reasons why you could rule otherwise, but not reasons why I couldn't rule my way. The opening and foundation of my argument was "Since there is no clear rule in the books, this is up to the DM." And I said that another DM could rule otherwise. To argue against my point, nothing will work except an unambiguous statement from the rules that prevents my proposed ruling.

[noob]

So I guess that now everybody agree it can be ruled in any of the possible ways.

[Psyren]

Oh, I agree that you could use spells in the process. But the headband is a physical thing. It's more akin to using the piano while you're upgrading it

But you're not changing it physically. You're pouring more magic into it. Structurally, a +2, +4 and +6 headband are identical; they all share the same physical description. Furthermore, if you're handed one, you still need a Spellcraft check to know which one of the three it is.



To disagree with my position requires you to show that my analogies are wrong, not that there are other possible right ones.

Then in that case, I think your analogies are wrong because they require you to demonstrate that you are physically modifying the headband. If that were truly necessary, the headbands would be different, but they all have the same physical description per the CRB/UE.

More accurately, I think your analogies are possible, but I think mine are more plausible for this reason.

Now, the beauty of this is that you can rule at your table that upgrading the headband does require physical modification/manipulation. But I see nothing in the RAW or fluff that requires this, and perfectly good reasons not to invent this requirement on my own.



Most parties, not most characters.

It's not unrealistic to hire that kind of work out, or to have two higher level casters in the party, both of whom have headbands. My current 13th level party has two. In any event, I specifically said that "I have no idea how rare or common that is". This was just an argument against the exaggeration that that it applied to "every instance .. ever".

Which I brought up as a response to your use of Iron Man's armor and Roy Greenhilt's sword needing to be taken away from them once in awhile. I agree with that, but for plot purposes, not the relatively pedestrian task of increasing the numbers on your gear.



That's certainly a basis on which you could rule differently from me, as I have repeatedly said you could. It is not an argument against my ruling unless you can show that the rules make it clear that the headband can be used in the process of magical augmentation.

No no, see, that's not how rules work. The rules say what requirements you need to meet in order to upgrade an item. You can meet all those requirements while wearing said item. Since I've met those requirements, the onus is now on you to show me where you cannot upgrade an item you're wearing.



That analogy works only if you believe that working on a headband on my forehead where I cannot see it is as easy as working on a workbench on the floor in front of me where I can see it.

Even if staring at the item the entire time were a requirement (it's not), all I would need is a mirror. Done.

[denthor]

[QUOTE=Psyren;21981649]I justified that several posts ago. Buy expensive incense, meditate, channel more magic into headband, done. The details are up to the DM to determine.



So you,admit that while sitting under the stars with the bard your incense could be stolen. ruining you magical channel. I still feel you are worried about the amount of spells you can memorize cast and what the DC is and just want to get all the advantages with no penalty. which in reading your original question can I still wear this why taking it off to work on it.

When I charged a wand I rented a building/warehouse. Hired 5th level fighters six when I was there to work four to watch the place one to clean up the last to go to the market for food. At night. I had four guard one thief to look for entry ways I slept in the building to gaurd my project. I was in a city that had a neutral reputation.

Yes I brI bed the guild to leave me alone. There were three in the city.

[Calthropstu]

To be honest, I don't think the game creators had this level of munchkinry in mind when they made the rules.

It is certainly up to the gm, but personally, if a player tried that I'd throw something at them. And the more they persisted, the larger the objects would get.

NO, you can't wear something you are working on.

[Psyren]

For the record, I totally agree that making an item should require tools, parts, your hands, all of the things you'd expect. The Headband of Vast Intelligence is a gold headband inlaid with gemstones, those do have to get in there somehow.

It's just upgrading an existing item that I think can be abstracted such that you can gain its benefits while working on it. Again, if all that's required is pouring more magic into the item, I don't see why that can't be done while the item is in one piece. I don't have to dismantle my soup to add more salt to it.

[Barstro]

NO, you can't wear something you are working on.

Let's change the scenario to something closer to my original question;

Your Fighter has a Masterwork sword. He wants the Wizard to make it a +1.
This would normally take one day, but it takes four while adventuring (specifically allowed under RAW).
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.

The sword is made. All the Wizard is doing is spending four days of sporadically working on the sword. Does the Fighter get to use the sword during those four days?

[denthor]

For the sword it first has to be masterwork quality. I seem to remember you can not chip the sword by using it in combat. separated from my books.

[Barstro]

For the sword it first has to be masterwork quality.
Not only is that specifically mentioned in my post, I took the time to delete "MW" and write in "Masterwork" just to prevent any misunderstanding.


I seem to remember you can not chip the sword by using it in combat. separated from my books.
I see nothing in the Pathfinder SRD for the Feat "Craft Arms and Armor" or the Magic Item Creation page to suggest that to be RAW.

[Calthropstu]

Let's change the scenario to something closer to my original question;

Your Fighter has a Masterwork sword. He wants the Wizard to make it a +1.
This would normally take one day, but it takes four while adventuring (specifically allowed under RAW).

The sword is made. All the Wizard is doing is spending four days of sporadically working on the sword. Does the Fighter get to use the sword during those four days?

Yes, the sword is made. But I can't imagine any scenario where using it during the enchanting process would be a good idea. Yes, magic is intangible, but it still needs a delicate process. But keep in mind you are using MATERIAL costs to add the enchantment... which implies a material component of the crafting process. The game kind of hand waves it, but I don't think a pile of gold simply vanishes and presto... you have a magic item.
So I could totally see taking gold dust, casting the spell into it and having the now magical gold dust absorb into the item slowly. Because there is a material cost, and because there is a spellcraft check in order to succeed, I cannot imagine using the item during the process being a good idea.
At the very least, I would add massive circumstance penalties to spellcraft dc.

As for RAW, I already stated that I doubt the writers would account for such a departure from common sense.

[Zanos]

Occasionally having characters have to deal without all their accumulated stuff allows some increased challenges, like when Iron Man's armor doesn't work in Iron Man 3

That's not a great example, Iron Man 3 is a pretty terrible movie specifically because Tony spends so little of his time as iron man, and when he is iron man the suits are basically made of paper machie because of nuniutsu conservation.


More on topic, there's no RAW for this, and if I'm not giving the PCS enough downtime to use their feats, I'm not also going to say they can't use important gear while it's being upgraded. I don't see how getting the benefit of something you already bought or made while upgrading it is at all munchkining.

[Florian]

Nah, well, there is a RAW for this. Core/PRD has the basic rules, Ultimate Equipment expands upon them a bit, Ultimate Campaign points out to it actually being a downtime activity and should be handled as such.

Way I see it, the time you actively "do stuff to it", the item is unavailable to you, but keeps its old function until the upgrade is complete. So transition from Headband of Int+2 to +4, you don get the Int bonus and related effects during the time you´re actually crafting.

[Coidzor]

The sword is made. All the Wizard is doing is spending four days of sporadically working on the sword. Does the Fighter get to use the sword during those four days?

Yes, outside of the total of 16 hours that the Wizard has it and is working on the process.

I'd be generous and say that the wizard can start back up again where they left off if they get attacked during the process, and that the sword could be used in said ambush, but I believe that the rules are silent on that front. (Ed: Of course, the rules that cover that whole crafting while adventuring schtick seem to expect that the crafter is sneakinmg in the odd bit of crafting during water breaks, before going to bed, etc., so it's inherently a bunch of smaller blocks of time that add up collectively to 4 hours anyway.)

Still, hope it doesn't get sundered or destroyed to the point it has to be remade with Make Whole, because that's a whole morass of GM call territory. (Ed: That is to say, whether all that money and progress is wasted or not when restoring the destroyed magic item is entirely up to the GM, and I would not want to risk it, especially for a fairly pricy improvement.)

[Barstro]

Way I see it, the time you actively "do stuff to it", the item is unavailable to you, but keeps its old function until the upgrade is complete. So transition from Headband of Int+2 to +4, you don get the Int bonus and related effects during the time you´re actually crafting.
My interpretation of what you just said contradicts itself. Please clarify

To use your example;
1) Headband is +2.
2) PC must spend (we'll just say) 8 days while adventuring to upgrade it to +4.
3) Per RAW, said upgrading "is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night"

Since, per RAW, said upgrading does NOT take place during battles, is the +2 available to the PC when fighting during those eight days?

[Barstro]

But keep in mind you are using MATERIAL costs to add the enchantment... which implies a material component of the crafting process. The game kind of hand waves it, but I don't think a pile of gold simply vanishes and presto... you have a magic item.
RAW; that is exactly what happens. You pay the gold cost up front.


At the very least, I would add massive circumstance penalties to spellcraft dc.
What do you consider "massive"? It's +5 to be very hasty and try to double the progress.


As for RAW, I already stated that I doubt the writers would account for such a departure from common sense.
Which begs the question as what "common sense" is. Your common sense is that "of course it cannot be used" and you have backed that up with logic. Psyren has the opposite view and has backed that up with logic as well.

[Zanos]

Which begs the question as what "common sense" is. Your common sense is that "of course it cannot be used" and you have backed that up with logic. Psyren has the opposite view and has backed that up with logic as well.
Common sense is whatever he says it is, obviously. That's just common sense.

[Psyren]

To summarize my view: As I've said several times previously, all three varieties of headband have the same physical description. Therefore, I have no reason to believe it must be altered physically in order to go from one to the next. Initially creating it, absolutely, but not upgrading it. No one has yet shown me what supports that assumption.


Common sense is whatever he says it is, obviously. That's just common sense.

Ha! :smallbiggrin:

[Florian]

@Barsto:

Think about the Sunder/Dispel rules and keep slots in mind.

A) You have Item X that you want to upgrade. Item X only functions when actively used and requires a slot.
B) You start upgrading Item X. In the allotted time for working at it, you change the active use (and "slot") to upgrade, so you can´t make active use of it. If with the 24h clause, that still applies. Item X is "suppressed" during the downtime period that takes.
C) Time is over, items works again as normal, with 24h clause still active.

So, in case of headband of Int +2, it ceases to function for the specific time you spent working on it.

[Psyren]

@Barsto:

Think about the Sunder/Dispel rules and keep slots in mind.

A) You have Item X that you want to upgrade. Item X only functions when actively used and requires a slot.
B) You start upgrading Item X. In the allotted time for working at it, you change the active use (and "slot") to upgrade, so you can´t make active use of it. If with the 24h clause, that still applies. Item X is "suppressed" during the downtime period that takes.
C) Time is over, items works again as normal, with 24h clause still active.

So, in case of headband of Int +2, it ceases to function for the specific time you spent working on it.

I'm not seeing any of this in the Downtime rules. Literally all Downtime says about crafting is that you can spend Magic instead of gp, then refers you back to the CRB.

[Barstro]

@Barsto: So, in case of headband of Int +2, it ceases to function for the specific time you spent working on it.

Incorrect. I'll grant you the 24h part, however, "The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn." There is still the temporary bonus. Maybe the PC doesn't get the knowledge skills or even extra spells (but I think that's debatable too), he still gets the bonus.

[Shark Uppercut]

To summarize my view: As I've said several times previously, all three varieties of headband have the same physical description.
Ohhh. Yeah, this is exactly why I have a different opinion than you.
In my headcanon, a Headband +2 has a few sapphires, +4 has more and +6 is basically a solid crown of gems. Likewise with Cloaks of Resistance and Rings of Protection being more, well, blinged out at higher bonuses. I don't know if this is RAI, but it's how I play the game.

But for OP, the fair ruling for RAW would probably be, let the Headband be worn both when it isn't being worked on and when it is.

[Barstro]

In my headcanon, a Headband +2 has a few sapphires, +4 has more and +6 is basically a solid crown of gems.

Even if that is the case, how does that change Psyren's final conclusion. Keeping in mind that RAW is the item is worked on sporadically throughout the day; You add some gems, work the metal, rinse repeat, on the final day, you turn it from a +4 to a +6. Nothing about that suggests it cannot be worn when not working on it.

Nothing RAW (or what you have said) suggests that the original helm must be stripped to its bare parts and then built back up. Even flavor-wise that makes no sense, since that should take even MORE time that crafting a +6 from scratch instead of upgrading a +4 to +6.

Yes, I know I removed your final sentence that provides a favorable ruling. I'm more interested in the thought process you stated prior.

[Psyren]

Ohhh. Yeah, this is exactly why I have a different opinion than you.
In my headcanon, a Headband +2 has a few sapphires, +4 has more and +6 is basically a solid crown of gems. Likewise with Cloaks of Resistance and Rings of Protection being more, well, blinged out at higher bonuses. I don't know if this is RAI, but it's how I play the game.

Headband of Mental Prowess has a single gem in the center of it (all variants). How does that one fit with your headcanon?

[Shark Uppercut]

Headband of Mental Prowess has a single gem in the center of it (all variants). How does that one fit with your headcanon?

"Several small blue and deep purple gemstones." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-vast-intelligence/)


Even if that is the case, how does that change Psyren's final conclusion. Keeping in mind that RAW is the item is worked on sporadically throughout the day; You add some gems, work the metal, rinse repeat, on the final day, you turn it from a +4 to a +6. Nothing about that suggests it cannot be worn when not working on it.

Nothing RAW (or what you have said) suggests that the original helm must be stripped to its bare parts and then built back up. Even flavor-wise that makes no sense, since that should take even MORE time that crafting a +6 from scratch instead of upgrading a +4 to +6.

Yes, I know I removed your final sentence that provides a favorable ruling. I'm more interested in the thought process you stated prior.
Ok, this is my thought process:
The gems and metal are half of the item. The other half is the magic inside.
The magic is not manipulating physical objects like gems.
The magic is not meditating while looking at the headband.
The magic is more complicated than editing music, and listening to it would be too distracting.

The magic should be like programming. Or better, doing stuff in VR in Shadowrun. Everyone else sees you sitting in a chair at a desk with a headband, wiggling your fingers and humming and sighing to yourself like a crazy person. They can't see the virtual keyboard, the invisible glyphs, the n-dimensional strings that desperately try to wiggle out of your grasp. You have 16 tabs in 5 windows open, and they all need attention! Or should I say, you need to clean, resize and realign the 16 sigils harmoniously into 5 shapes, and none of them stay in place?

I realize using technology as a metaphor for magic sounds strange, but D&D magic is so regulated and well understood it basically is technology.
And obviously, you can't run a program that's half-made.

[Psyren]

"Several small blue and deep purple gemstones." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-vast-intelligence/)

Wrong headband, I said Mental Prowess. Please reread my post.



Ok, this is my thought process:
The gems and metal are half of the item. The other half is the magic inside.
The magic is not manipulating physical objects like gems.
The magic is not meditating while looking at the headband.
The magic is more complicated than editing music, and listening to it would be too distracting.

This is all perfectly acceptable houserules, go right ahead.

[Shark Uppercut]

Wrong headband, I said Mental Prowess. Please reread my post.
The entire thread has been talking about Headbands of Vast Intelligence, including me and you. You brought up Headbands of Mental Prowess in your 2nd to last post, apropos of nothing. Don't bait-and-switch me.

[Coidzor]

The entire thread has been talking about Headbands of Vast Intelligence, including me and you. You brought up Headbands of Mental Prowess in your 2nd to last post, apropos of nothing. Don't bait-and-switch me.

That's hardly a bait and switch, that was specifically asking about another item to extend the example or possibly metaphor.

[Shark Uppercut]

Oh good, now I look like a confrontational jerk because I misinterpreted you.
I thought you were rejecting my headcanon because you were saying Int headbands only have a single gem.
Sorry.

IDK, the exact details don't matter. Int headbands have sapphires and amethysts, Charisma headbands have rubies and amber, Wisdom headbands have jades and emerald.
Headbands of Two stats have mixes of the two kinds of gems. Headbands of all 3 have every kind of gem. Or just huge diamonds, because Superiority.

Magic item descriptions are pretty much the easiest form of refluffing ever, so it's confusing to me when they get treated as crunch and RAW gets involved.

[Psyren]

That's hardly a bait and switch, that was specifically asking about another item to extend the example or possibly metaphor.

Thank you.



Magic item descriptions are pretty much the easiest form of refluffing ever, so it's confusing to me when they get treated as crunch and RAW gets involved.

I'm only bringing up fluff because you guys did. When you say a headband can't be worn while upgrading it, I ask for RAW behind that - and I either get crickets in return, or I get "headcanon." So clearly fluff is on the table, and I'm not the one who put it there.

[Calthropstu]

I think it best to keep a ruling universal regardless of the number of gems something has.

There is an existing parallel in the real world. Even if it is a magic "presto" with channeling magic, I would compare it to computers.
Can you use your computer when upgrading your computer from windows 8 to windows 10? I view this as a similar concept. All of your files still exist, but the act of upgrading renders your computer unusable during the upgrade. You are altering the fundamental function of the magic item, even if it is just making it better/faster/stronger.

Edit: Like I said, it's not raw, but it's the best parallel I can think of right now.

[Psyren]

I think it best to keep a ruling universal regardless of the number of gems something has.

There is an existing parallel in the real world. Even if it is a magic "presto" with channeling magic, I would compare it to computers.
Can you use your computer when upgrading your computer from windows 8 to windows 10? I view this as a similar concept. All of your files still exist, but the act of upgrading renders your computer unusable during the upgrade. You are altering the fundamental function of the magic item, even if it is just making it better/faster/stronger.

Edit: Like I said, it's not raw, but it's the best parallel I can think of right now.

To which I gave the counterexample of refining a song while listening to it and benefiting from it. Thats the analogy I choose to use.

[Calthropstu]

To which I gave the counterexample of refining a song while listening to it and benefiting from it. Thats the analogy I choose to use.

Altering a song is not the same in the slightest. Each alteration of a song is, in and of itself, a complete transformation. At any point in the process you may stop, and your finished product will always be your finished product. You can end after a few notes or write an entire hours worth of song. Either way, once you put down your pen you have a completed product.
Not so with magic items or any physical items for that matter.

[Psyren]

Altering a song is not the same in the slightest. Each alteration of a song is, in and of itself, a complete transformation. At any point in the process you may stop, and your finished product will always be your finished product. You can end after a few notes or write an entire hours worth of song. Either way, once you put down your pen you have a completed product.
Not so with magic items or any physical items for that matter.

How is that not the same? If you stop upgrading a +2 item, it will still be a +2 item. It still functions. Only when you have made all the alterations will it be +4 - there is no intermediary state because that item does not exist in the rules. But to go back to your analogy of upgrading windows, if you unplug the computer halfway through, the entire machine will be a brick or corrupted. Your analogy is the one that fails, not mine.

[Calthropstu]

How is that not the same? If you stop upgrading a +2 item, it will still be a +2 item. It still functions. Only when you have made all the alterations will it be +4 - there is no intermediary state because that item does not exist in the rules. But to go back to your analogy of upgrading windows, if you unplug the computer halfway through, the entire machine will be a brick or corrupted. Your analogy is the one that fails, not mine.

On the contrary, on an item to make changes you must first begin by opening the hood so to speak. In the case of a computer, you must remove many files and begin overwriting them making it useless in the process. In the case of a car, try starting it in the middle of replacing the battery. In the case of a train try operating it in the middle of replacing the engine.

You can argue "but it's magic..." but I counter that it still has a physical manifestation and the first part of the upgrade process would have to be a partial unraveling of the magic itself.

[Psyren]

On the contrary, on an item to make changes you must first begin by opening the hood so to speak. In the case of a computer, you must remove many files and begin overwriting them making it useless in the process. In the case of a car, try starting it in the middle of replacing the battery. In the case of a train try operating it in the middle of replacing the engine.

What you're doing isn't working on a car though. It's adding more salt to your soup. Which you can do without dismantling the soup.

[Barstro]

RAW, if you stop work in the middle of upgrading, the result is that the item reverts back. An interrupted +4 into a +6 is a +4.

If you are going to cling to an analogy, it had better have that same result.

As another argument against the Windows example (which I otherwise liked a lot). RAW allows one to upgrade sporadically. One cannot decide to spend five minutes every hour upgrading Windows.

If we are going the computer route, I'd say that it's closer to writing a short story, saving the file, opening a copy and spending a week flushing it out into a novel. That second file can be worked on sporadically and, if it is abandoned, it original is still there.

[Calthropstu]

RAW, if you stop work in the middle of upgrading, the result is that the item reverts back. An interrupted +4 into a +6 is a +4.

If you are going to cling to an analogy, it had better have that same result.

As another argument against the Windows example (which I otherwise liked a lot). RAW allows one to upgrade sporadically. One cannot decide to spend five minutes every hour upgrading Windows.

If we are going the computer route, I'd say that it's closer to writing a short story, saving the file, opening a copy and spending a week flushing it out into a novel. That second file can be worked on sporadically and, if it is abandoned, it original is still there.

Writing a novel is not changing basic function, which an item upgrade does. That is why I used the os update as an example.

However, I may make an exception and say that other functions of a magic item may continue to work...

For example, a +1 flaming longsword being upgaded to flaming burst may still count as a +1 longsword?
I may equate it more along the lines of software upgrades instead of full os upgrades. So while the flaming is tied into the +1, the +1 does not rely on the flaming. I might see it going that route.