Would fluff books truly be necessary in 5e?

[MrFahrenheit]

In my current campaign, the party will soon be going into two different dragons' lairs, with a brief respite inside town in between. I looked up the Draconomicon for sample diagrams and found 3e's. Full pdf, too, which was unexpected...yet somehow not surprising.

My next campaign is likely going to be a multiplanar escapade. I did some interwebbing there too, and discovered pdfs for AD&D's MotP, as well as 3e's.

Seems to me much of the fluff between 3.X and 5th holds up. Sure there aren't anywhere near as many dragon age categories any more, but the overall stories and location descriptions between the two books I've thus far looked up can easily translate into any edition, especially 5th.

The only thing that doesn't translate from the old to the new are the mechanics, after all. MotP could use some more specific points of interest within a plane, but I get the space constraints they were under in the past - book was hefty enough.

Which leads me to the question: would something like a MotP or a Draconomicon for fifth be better handled in a UA sort of way?

I'm thinking so, if/when they restart it: each week, to take these examples, could feature a different in depth look at a specific plane, or dragon type. A lot of it could be copy/pasted from the early editions, frankly, and I'd be ok with that, so long as the mechanics were converted for 5th.

[Maxilian]

Wait.... are you asking about the fluff or the mechanics?

Cause i get the mechanics may be added later (if its mechanics for mobs, its going to come just like Volos came)

Fluff? they could do that through UA (Though i wouldnt even call them UA cause they are just... well... fluff, just information for the campaign but no mechanics)

[MrFahrenheit]

Wait.... are you asking about the fluff or the mechanics?

Cause i get the mechanics may be added later (if its mechanics for mobs, its going to come just like Volos came)

Fluff? they could do that through UA (Though i wouldnt even call them UA cause they are just... well... fluff, just information for the campaign but no mechanics)

I guess I'm talking about both:

Fluff- is there really a need for fluff books anymore? I get that some DMs don't allow UA at their table (myself actually included), but fluff would be fine.

Mechanics- if most of the fluff is basically unchanged, why not just release updated mechanics for certain planar effects, for example (I.e., the blade storm on Acheron) via UA?

I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to a "Volo's Guide to the Planes," especially for added monsters (hello, astral dreadnought), but I could live without it at the same time, even given my next campaign.

[Tetrasodium]

I think the bog prooblem with a lot of those fluff books like the draconomicon is that they effectively added more complications to already overly complicated & structured like dragonlance/fr & such. things like manual of the planes, fiend folio, the uhh aberattion one with beholderkin/mindflayerkin/etc were all great because you could use them in any setting because they were not so tightly tied to an overly complicated mideval stasis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalStasis),flooded with random chinatown/little$ethnicity kingdoms who each have overly complicated histories with little if any ties or interaction worth noting with their neighbors. I made a campaign for monster race PCs set in a monster nation that had been raised regularly for centuries by adventures & such keeping them as pretty poor & living in fear; but with FR being so ridiculous, it was too much work to even try to set it in the FR monster nation of the beastlands

I'd love to see some books like this (https://twitter.com/JM13136849/status/858475147304591360) MM twisted to line up with eberron's not tolkie/FR/dragonlance type thing, something like an eberron planar cosmology book with more detail & whatnot, maybe a nations of khorvaire type thing (there are like 5-6+ 1-2 monster nations),& the mournlands (a magical irradiated wasteland type thing). The fact that you have other continent/islands for stuff like "here be dragons"(Argonnessen), "untamed jungles be here" (xen'drik), etc makes it easy to dump in other stuff without having to makeup reasons for why it's stuck in cultural stasis instead of consuming/being consumbed by a nearby dominant/less advanced culture (because its far away & filled with danger).

The original manual of the planes was interesting sure, but it was ied too closely to the old grabbagof forgettable & overlapping deities & there was pretty much never a reason to go to any of them ever let alone pass through one to another instead of going direct from prime to $TargetPlane.

[Tanarii]

Manual of the Planes doesn't really work any more. Planescape destroyed it forever.

[zeek0]

I agree in a general sense, and of course fluff can be used with most any set of rules (though often it helps to have mechanics for certain things). But I also think that the quality of the hobby has improved in recent years, and I'd be greatly interested to see more modern versions of fluff.

[Tetrasodium]

Manual of the Planes doesn't really work any more. Planescape destroyed it forever.

Yea it was a soso one so tightly to FR/dragonlance & such so started to break down unless you knew all the ridiculous bolted on unconnected cruft. But it's not bad if you want to say "the macguffin is on the elemental plane of $element". An eberron MoP would be different because you can't just "ok lets planeshift to the plane of $elememnt" since [/url]they orbit[/url], aren't always accessable period, aren't lways accessable from the same point/plane, & have the whole quori/lords of dust/eldarin/etc tiebacks to prime you can link in if you want to. I'd much rather see eberron MM instead/first since eberron's treatment of monsters is generally more interesting than "monsters are always bad & almost always primitives living in caves, kill them before they kill you".

[Steampunkette]

Yes, fluff is needed.

Also no. Fluff is not needed.

Let's take Dark Sun as an example:

If I want to run a game in the Dark Sun Setting I can just break out the old 2e books and use the fluff from those. But a lot of the mechanics don't translate over, like Defiling or the various Elemental Clerics. So there needs to be mechanics tied to them.

Now you could just release the defiling mechanics as a PDF download and make the Elemental Clerics a standalone release. You wouldn't make any money off of it and lots of people won't have access to the old 2e books for the game, so it wouldn't be used by a massive portion of your player base.

So the best course? Release more fluff. Release more Crunch. Do them together to ensure that you reach the most potential players with your books.

[StorytellerHero]

As not all groups will have well-capable writers or those who have enough time to spare to flesh out their settings as much as desired, prepared fluff will always be needed, especially among groups that are populated by working adults.

[Temperjoke]

I think necessary is the wrong word. I mean, of course it's not necessary, the players who really want to play old content like that would find a way to do it with 5e mechanics. I do think it's a good idea for them to do it though. For one, updating/expanding on old content is easier in a sense than making brand new content, as you already have a lot of core descriptions and content created, it's the mechanics that need the most work to be done. It also makes sense from a selling point. Right now, their official releases are heavily related to FR, but that's only a part of the greater market. Maybe they don't have immediate plans for a setting book like Eberron or Dark Sun, as those are more specific markets, but a resource book like a new Planes book that can be applied to both official settings and homebrew settings attracts a broader market segment, which is something they like to do with 5e.

[Tetrasodium]

I think necessary is the wrong word. I mean, of course it's not necessary, the players who really want to play old content like that would find a way to do it with 5e mechanics. I do think it's a good idea for them to do it though. For one, updating/expanding on old content is easier in a sense than making brand new content, as you already have a lot of core descriptions and content created, it's the mechanics that need the most work to be done. It also makes sense from a selling point. Right now, their official releases are heavily related to FR, but that's only a part of the greater market. Maybe they don't have immediate plans for a setting book like Eberron or Dark Sun, as those are more specific markets, but a resource book like a new Planes book that can be applied to both official settings and homebrew settings attracts a broader market segment, which is something they like to do with 5e.


wrt updating/creating new content it's not that simple. Keith baker has pretty flatly stated that there is a significant amount of content written for eberron in the past that Wotc locked up in the vault. He's also said that he has a bunch of things ready to go up on dmguild as soon as they allow eberron stuff, the volo's style MM with eberron twist to descriptions he said "'d love to write such a thing, if it's ever possible.". I have a half finished 1-5ish thing set in droaam. While I can run it, I can't even give it away.

It's not even a matter of creating new contentPrior to volo's, there was no way to even play in droaam was as untrusted/disliked non-monstrous races so there are a couple pages (being generous & including races/faiths/etc as well as setting books for 3.5/4e) about things that are going to make adventuring in droaam difficult spread across multiple 3.5 & 4e books, an entire novel (queen of stone), plus whatever Keith Baker has in the wotc vault/written for 5e & ready. but even queen of stone is limited use because it's a novel & because it's from a half elf's PoV during a multunational summit type thing in droaam.

[Tanarii]

I mean, of course it's not necessary, the players who really want to play old content like that would find a way to do it with 5e mechanics.I've run BECMI modules B2, B4 and X1 using mostly 5e. Generally adapting on the fly. I think the lack of pre-converting the module, especially the monsters & encounter balance, made it work even better. CaW is pretty central to the BECMI module experience, at least my favorite ones. It also taught me that 5e works VERY well with CaW style play.

[War_lord]

I think that what we're likely to see in future is more stuff like Volo's Guide. So there's something for everyone. DM's who care about fluff get a tonne of information that can be applied to any setting, DM's who want to add more monster variety to the hack and slash get a good chunk of new monsters, players get new race options. That's a much easier sell then a full book of very specific information like the SCAG and older fluff books.

[Honest Tiefling]

If I want to run a game in the Dark Sun Setting I can just break out the old 2e books and use the fluff from those. But a lot of the mechanics don't translate over, like Defiling or the various Elemental Clerics. So there needs to be mechanics tied to them.

After the 4e mess of 'updating' Forgotten Realms, I have to ask: Have many revisions or new editions of setting books ever worked? Admittedly the 4e version was pretty drastic, but I can't really see a reason to keep releasing newer setting books when people love the setting as-is. Maybe a nice re-release of the old books, and only making a new release to update art or editing since most of these books are out of print anyway.

A nicely laid out PDF like the Elemental Evil Player's Companion would be quite nice for the mechanics that need to be updated or even one with suggestions of new idea that are entirely optional. That way, if these options are for PCs the players can examine them at their leisure instead of bumming around the DM's house to make a character.

[Tanarii]

After the 4e mess of 'updating' Forgotten Realms, I have to ask: Have many revisions or new editions of setting books ever worked? Admittedly the 4e version was pretty drastic, but I can't really see a reason to keep releasing newer setting books when people love the setting as-is. Maybe a nice re-release of the old books, and only making a new release to update art or editing since most of these books are out of print anyway.IIRC the 4e Dark Sun Campaign Setting seemed like it was okay. It's been a while, but I don't recall recoiling in horror at the time.

[Tetrasodium]

After the 4e mess of 'updating' Forgotten Realms, I have to ask: Have many revisions or new editions of setting books ever worked? Admittedly the 4e version was pretty drastic, but I can't really see a reason to keep releasing newer setting books when people love the setting as-is. Maybe a nice re-release of the old books, and only making a new release to update art or editing since most of these books are out of print anyway.

A nicely laid out PDF like the Elemental Evil Player's Companion would be quite nice for the mechanics that need to be updated or even one with suggestions of new idea that are entirely optional. That way, if these options are for PCs the players can examine them at their leisure instead of bumming around the DM's house to make a character.


eberron didn't advance 3.5->4e, there is a lot of in the present/recent past stuff to still cover & hundreds of years worth of significant historical events with little more than a sentence in most cases.

[Steampunkette]

What would an updated Dark Sun book look like to me?

Pretty much like the old books with better art, basic mechanics/charts that fit in the new system, some updated class and race mechanics, and the monsters/creatures brought up to 5e.

That's, honestly, about it. Maybe a "Campaign Book" like the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide or the Curse of Strahd campaign as a splat-book, essentially providing a series of adventure seeds and lots of artwork for the modern incarnation of the setting created in the 90s.

I don't want a -new- Dark Sun. I want the old mechanics brought up to date, art resources, some new player options, and things of that nature packaged with the old game. Give me the "10 Things" spiel at the front of the book. Throw in excerpts from the Wanderer's Journal for sidebars and descriptive text.

I've been working at homebrewing the mechanics for myself, but I sure as heck can't draw a straight line to save my life, and don't have the cash to commission an art book. So... ytknow... Gimme the official content created by paid designers and artists. Give me a slight rewriting/editing of the old fluff into the new language.

[Slipperychicken]

I think setting and adventure books are what's needed. Giving people new and interesting stories, or even wiping the dust off some old ones, would get us a lot more mileage than piling on character options.

I'd much rather face analysis paralysis over which story I'm going to play through than which feat I'm going to take.

[Regitnui]

Yes. New players would pick up 5e books for the first time, and if the picture of a warforged and double-scimitar-wielding elf fighting off a horde of Emerald Claw soldiers while a teenage half-dragon lich doesn't have any payoff in the book besides an "on the cover", they're going to put that book right back down.

It might be easy for the grognards and old bards among us to look up and recall the fluff from previous editions. But what about someone who's getting the "Eberron Explorer's Guide" or "Dark Sun Wanderer's Guide" with no previous experience in either setting. Do you think WotC would say "go buy x, y, and z off www.dmsguild.com" or would they just write "Eberron is a world where low-level magic is a resource and a science" or "Dark Sun takes place on Athas, where the overuse of arcane magic has ruined the world" in the book itself?

The answer shouldn't be that hard. While I do think the age of splatbooks like Secrets of Sarlona and A Wizard's Guide to the Silt Sea is over, the fluff book is not dead. I can foresee WotC releasing setting books similar to the SCAG, with individual adventures picking up the slack of defining their areas in greater detail. A core setting book (Eberron) would probably be a view of the Five Nations, Sharn and a listing of the other places and countries that'd attract adventurers. Dark Sun would define Tyr and the Tablelands, possibly painting the rest of the world in broad strokes.

Then the adventure books come along: Rise of Ashtakala would show a player more of the Demon Wastes and offer maps there. Grey Tide Rising would name the Lhazaar Princes and their islands. A Templar's Death would explain Nibenay's city and politics, offering a new area. Much like SCAG defined the Sword Coast and SKT defined the Northlands.

[Finback]

I have nothing of true merit to add, other than


the bog prooblem

should be a creature in a new Monster Manual.

[Sredni Vashtar]

Seeing as how I, and apparently many others, still use the fluff from their old books, no fluff books aren't necessarily necessary, but let me pose a slightly different question.

How boring would a sourcebook without fluff be? Imagine Volo's Guide to Monsters without the fluff (basically a pamphlet full of statblocks).

Fluff and crunch: two great tastes that taste great together.

[Beelzebubba]

I come from the era where DMs wrote more pages of house rules, NPCs, maps, and world history written than there were in the rulebooks.

Most fluff is just home-brew with good art. Maybe create some stuff on your own and then commission someone from DeviantArt to give you a cover and a few half-page illustrations for chapter headings?

[ZorroGames]

Basically I am not the market for such.

As a player there already mind boggling options for the budding DM IMO. I really don't pay attention to anything but PHB, MM, and the dip into character design material in DMGs. Let the DM set the world, give a basis to want to play there, and game on.

As a "Maybe someday again I would run a few adventures/a campaign" potential DM I have tons of stuff from my original setting I would just prefer adapting.

BTW, adapting all those previous editions books? Often it is more work to update things to a new structure/format than to create from an established 5th Edition setting or create one from fresh new broadcloth.

[ZorroGames]

TBH, how many subclasses of races do you need (not want, for understand want :smallsmile: myself) as opposed to playing the character? I mean most of the CG (Chaotic Good) Players I meant back in the day were just Chaotic Greedy hiding under an alignment. :smallwink:

But seriously, would you rather have a Balanced (repeat balanced) new race or another flavor of elf? I find enough race options currently but that is just me.

[Steampunkette]

I come from the era where DMs wrote more pages of house rules, NPCs, maps, and world history written than there were in the rulebooks.

Most fluff is just home-brew with good art. Maybe create some stuff on your own and then commission someone from DeviantArt to give you a cover and a few half-page illustrations for chapter headings?

Spoken like a man with time, and money, to burn.

[Tanarii]

Spoken like a man with time, and money, to burn.Second that. It's fine to talk about reams of home-devised campaign stuff. And that's fine if you're running a session once a month, or maybe bi-weekly even. But for multiple sessions a week, on top of a job, it's not very realistic. Even if it is the kind of job where I can go online to steal ideas and do a little session planning during the day.

[Unoriginal]

Seems to me much of the fluff between 3.X and 5th holds up.

Not quite. Some does hold up, but a lot of the lore was modified, and a lot just doesn't fit the mechanics anymore.

[Tetrasodium]

Not quite. Some does hold up, but a lot of the lore was modified, and a lot just doesn't fit the mechanics anymore.



exactly. I personally never read the darksun stuff beyond the back cover blurb back in the day... but it seems that both eberron & darksun only need a book that updates everything to 5e without significant changes. A core setting book & a volo's type book fleshing out some of the darker not-MightAsWellBTolkien'sMiddleEarth-FR would be enough in most cases.

[Knaight]

You don't need fluff books - the old edition stuff works, there's a giant pile of GURPS stuff available to steal, there are other fantasy games you can pilfer settings from (e.g. REIGN), you can take the setting from a series of novels or a TV show or whatever, so on and so forth. Similarly, new crunch wasn't needed - there's tons of RPGs out there, and most everyone could find something good enough. That doesn't mean that either of these shouldn't be made, much the same way that the presence of more books than anyone could read in a lifetime means that literature production should stop.

[Tetrasodium]

You don't need fluff books - the old edition stuff works, there's a giant pile of GURPS stuff available to steal, there are other fantasy games you can pilfer settings from (e.g. REIGN), you can take the setting from a series of novels or a TV show or whatever, so on and so forth. Similarly, new crunch wasn't needed - there's tons of RPGs out there, and most everyone could find something good enough. That doesn't mean that either of these shouldn't be made, much the same way that the presence of more books than anyone could read in a lifetime means that literature production should stop.

wrong.


As a GM I can say "this is going to be in eberron, specifically in droaam & monster races are strongly encouraged". with a 5e book to cover that, I can point players to it to give them a touchstone on the reality of things. without the book, it's just too much work to shepherd all the cats onto the same page unless that page is similar enough to something they are familiar with that theycan grope their way a little outside the box they expect

[ZorroGames]

wrong.


As a GM I can say "this is going to be in eberron, specifically in droaam & monster races are strongly encouraged". with a 5e book to cover that, I can point players to it to give them a touchstone on the reality of things. without the book, it's just too much work to shepherd all the cats onto the same page unless that page is similar enough to something they are familiar with that theycan grope their way a little outside the box they expect

Not that it should not be published but, again, I guess I just not the target audience for such a setting.

If I need to buy a separate fluff book to play a setting that is way outside what I call the norm I am very much less likely to spend the money, much less be tempted to play. Not that it might not be fun but if I hav to forget/relearn everything besides the 5th Edition differences (which I like) I'll be too busy reading during the game to enjoy playing.

YMMV, I am just old and cranky today with another day of continuous rain...

[Knaight]

As a GM I can say "this is going to be in eberron, specifically in droaam & monster races are strongly encouraged". with a 5e book to cover that, I can point players to it to give them a touchstone on the reality of things. without the book, it's just too much work to shepherd all the cats onto the same page unless that page is similar enough to something they are familiar with that theycan grope their way a little outside the box they expect

Sure. Yet if Eberron never existed, you could still find some setting that fit. If it was never updated to 5e, you could pull out 3.x Eberron and use that. I'm emphatically not saying that having 5e fluff books isn't useful, as my last sentence makes clear. I'm saying that they're not "truly necessary" because there are already enough alternatives to technically make none of it necessary.

[MrFahrenheit]

Wow, been away from these boards for a few days and needed to catch up on this thread.

Someone mentioned this earlier and it got talked about for a while, but it seems like everyone was in agreement that planescape destroyed MotP. How? For DMs who use the "generic" Greyhawk setting, it seems like MotP could be as relevant as ever. I personally would be happy with almost a reprint of 3e's, excepting that the mechanics themselves would need updating into 5th.

[Beelzebubba]

Spoken like a man with time, and money, to burn.

We all have the same 24 hours in the day. We just have to prioritize where we spend it, I guess. And if you think throwing $20-40 at an up-and-coming artist is 'money to burn' for something that will have a years' worth of value to your friends I guess I'd ask how often you go out for Starbuck's.



Second that. It's fine to talk about reams of home-devised campaign stuff. And that's fine if you're running a session once a month, or maybe bi-weekly even. But for multiple sessions a week, on top of a job, it's not very realistic. Even if it is the kind of job where I can go online to steal ideas and do a little session planning during the day.

Well, maybe 1% of people in the history of our hobby have gamed that much. You do have unique problems that most don't have, (ones I'm frankly a bit envious of), so I'd imagine you already know very little advice in a thread like this applies to you.

But today, it is SO easy to bash stuff together, given the volume of freely available stuff in home-brew, the ease of finding it, the CR system, the renewed simplicity of monster building, etcetera. Way, WAY easier than even the early 2000's. Not to even mention the number of 3rd party modules available on DriveThru.

There is literally an avalanche of content available now that we didn't have 'in the old days'. Even flawed stuff can be quickly kit-bashed into a several hour encounter with a bit of winging.

It's a great time to build your own. The best it's ever been. And it's really rewarding, too.

[Millstone85]

Someone mentioned this earlier and it got talked about for a while, but it seems like everyone was in agreement that planescape destroyed MotP. How?I would actually be more interested in a 5e MotP, if...
*... it went more in depth than the DMG on the Great Wheel, the World Tree, the World Axis and other cosmologies of past editions and settings.
*... it gave various descriptions of the Material Plane: as galaxies, as crystal spheres and phlogiston, as a smaller multiverse of alternate realities, etc.
*... it discussed what it means to play on Eberron with the idea that it shares the same planes as Abeir-Toril, or on the contrary that it has its own separate cosmology.
*... it explained how to deal with the echo planes when several worlds are considered. What happens if you travel to the Feywild from Athas or Oerth?

Planescape is a setting. A 5e book on it wouln't have all this freedom.

[Tanarii]

Well, maybe 1% of people in the history of our hobby have gamed that much. You do have unique problems that most don't have, (ones I'm frankly a bit envious of), so I'd imagine you already know very little advice in a thread like this applies to you.No, this thread is very relevant to me. Because setting books are incredibly useful to me, and many people I know that have very little planning time, especially those who have such little planning time because they're busy playing. And calling it 1% is fairly ludicrous. Not having much time to plan vs the amount of playing time is fairly common for DMs.


But today, it is SO easy to bash stuff together, given the volume of freely available stuff in home-brew, the ease of finding it, the CR system, the renewed simplicity of monster building, etcetera. Way, WAY easier than even the early 2000's. Not to even mention the number of 3rd party modules available on DriveThru.

There is literally an avalanche of content available now that we didn't have 'in the old days'. Even flawed stuff can be quickly kit-bashed into a several hour encounter with a bit of winging.Yes, but that was my point. Using pre-generated content, which includes fluff books, allows a DM without much planning time relative to the amount of play-time expected to access it and run games.


It's a great time to build your own. The best it's ever been. And it's really rewarding, too.It's a great time to adapt pre-generated content someone else has built into your own. Because it means I can spend more time running games, and even less time prepping for them, and still have a cohesive and entertaining campaign. So yes, it's both the best time for that it's ever been, and really rewarding.

[Steampunkette]

We all have the same 24 hours in the day. We just have to prioritize where we spend it, I guess. And if you think throwing $20-40 at an up-and-coming artist is 'money to burn' for something that will have a years' worth of value to your friends I guess I'd ask how often you go out for Starbuck's.






Never. I can't afford it.

And $20 is one image. Two if it's black and white and only from the waist up. I'm talking about dropping $50 on a book filled with art of characters, locations, and objects that also has the rules so I don't have to homebrew so much.

Nice of you to try and make it about guilt and how I don't care about my friends as opposed to the actual situation of having problems putting food on the table and maintaining the internet access to contact them at the same time.

Starbucks is a nice touch, too. A banal expense that surely anyone can cut back on.

[Steampunkette]

Actually... Lemme Dissect that a bit further.

In addition to the assumption of a life with enough cash to hit Starbucks at least once a month and access to one (There aren't any within 75 miles of my house, the nearest is 75.6, in fact) is the presumption that one should have access to either ONE Luxury or the Other.

Let's say I -did- hit Starbucks once a week. You're suggesting I skip that once a week treat for myself to commission a single image from an artist online, because my friends are more important than my triple shot mocha latte with non-dairy soy cream, but gathering up enough artwork for a full campaign doesn't exist within a single image.

I'd need to go for months on end without my weekly trip to Starbuck's, depriving myself of the weekly treat for quite some time to gather up as much art as I might get out of a single D&D manual. I'd also still have to find the time to homebrew up all the systems, character options, and monsters to actually run the game which you propose would come out of the time I normally spend on having fun or otherwise enjoying entertainments.

Which is a whole -other- mess of assumptions.

So to sum up: You're asking me to spend much of my "Treat Myself" cash on artwork for the next year or so (52 images seems like it might be around as much as you'd get out of a WotC book, right?), my gaming time not gaming and instead doing prepwork for a game I won't be able to play for about that year, and all under the assumption that I have both the time and the money to spend on each of those things.

There may only be 24 hours in a day, Beelz, but that doesn't mean we both have the same access to them.

[Tetrasodium]

I would actually be more interested in a 5e MotP, if...
*... it went more in depth than the DMG on the Great Wheel, the World Tree, the World Axis and other cosmologies of past editions and settings.
*... it gave various descriptions of the Material Plane: as galaxies, as crystal spheres and phlogiston, as a smaller multiverse of alternate realities, etc.
*... it discussed what it means to play on Eberron with the idea that it shares the same planes as Abeir-Toril, or on the contrary that it has its own separate cosmology.
*... it explained how to deal with the echo planes when several worlds are considered. What happens if you travel to the Feywild from Athas or Oerth?

Planescape is a setting. A 5e book on it wouln't have all this freedom.

It does not share them. That's the problem. many of the monstrous humanoids in the MM are drasically different than are described. The BHB, DMG, & MM do not even contain the world "eberron". Hell, one of the five nations is responsible for a significant chunk of the undead in Khorvaire & much of it lives there. Nobody in eberron worships Grummish, Maglubiet, Pelor, Tiamat, mystara, etc... They worship, the silver flame, the soverign host, the dark six, blood of vol, cult of the dragon below, or thaaat's about it. Take Goblins, compare their eberron campaign setting version (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Goblin) & compare it to the version in the monster manual.... Not only is it not even close to accurate to eberron, they (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Darguun) have their own nation after their impact in the war. Not only do they have their own nation, ancient ruins (as opposed to ruins from a few years ago!), have a very good chance of being from the continent spanning Dhakaani Empire[/i] that goblins had thousands of years ago before invaders from the plane of madness (xoriat) destroyed it & eventually got repelled.

I for one am sick of every supplement being written as if forgotten realms is the only setting out there. I want an eberron style volo's so I can say "no *****, $FR deity is not a thing here... There are like three religions that cover all the gods, learn them & pick one! Those Gatekeeper Orc's defending you from outsiders & such aren't as dangerous as those [url="http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Valenar"]valinar elves (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dhakaani_Empire) spoiling for a fight, the orcs don't worship grummiish ffs, & those elves probably worship their freaking ancestors"

[War_lord]

I could buy a lot of things for $20, and a piece of art I'm only going to use once for maybe 5 minutes and that the party will probably take for granted would be really low on that list. Beelze, maybe your socio-economic situation lets you throw around 20 dollar bills like it's nothing and see it only as "one less starbucks". But this is the internet, and a lot of people including myself do not have the privilege of drinking $20 (€20 in my case) coffee regularly. As someone who never wants to see another fluff book again, because they're a waste of a book release, I still think your argument is absurd.

[Tanarii]

Actually... Lemme Dissect that a bit further.What it really boils down to is:
You can choose to personally develop everything yourself.;
or purchase single-use stuff from individual contractors at full development cost.
or use pre-generated content that is being sold at a fraction of the development cost to many users for profit.

These are always the options with any product. Some people choose to invest time to build it from scratch themselves, some to invest money in custom product, and others use the cheaper but less personalized commercially available product.

Anyone that takes a holier-than-thou attitude about not doing it themselves or purchasing custom content needs to revisit their purchases of other commercially available products: Clothing, cars, furniture, etc.

Edit: Conversely, anyone that takes the time to do it personally certainly deserves to be proud of what they've created. That's not the same thing.

[War_lord]

You don't have to map out your whole setting in advance. You can start with just a town and a cave system and go from there. I am mapping out my whole setting in advance, but I wouldn't advise people who just want to play to take that approach, because it's a big project. You're the DM, make stuff up, that's how all these published settings started anyway.

[Tanarii]

You don't have to map out your whole setting in advance. You can start with just a town and a cave system and go from there. I am mapping out my whole setting in advance, but I wouldn't advise people who just want to play to take that approach, because it's a big project. You're the DM, make stuff up, that's how all these published settings started anyway.
True. You also don't have to build all the furniture in your house. You can start by building small, just a chair for your living room. But the reality is some people want a furnished house, and don't have the time to build the furniture themselves, nor do they have the money to purchase custom furniture to feng shui things exactly how they want. Instead they spend some time looking at commercially available products, pick and choose the stuff they think will go best together, then if they have time and inclination maybe do some custom projects around the place.

Of course not everyone wants a furnished house. Some people LOVE camping. My current campaign started off as camping. No furniture in sight, just some tents I bought and some food. (Modules and a few ideas.) I ran it from there. We still don't even have a house for that campaign, just a forest we're exploring.

I think this analogy broke down somewhere ... :smallbiggrin:

[Millstone85]

It does not share them. That's the problem.
The BHB, DMG, & MM do not even contain the world "eberron".
I for one am sick of every supplement being written as if forgotten realms is the only setting out there.Oh, I think it is way worse than that, as recent editions seem to have a clear idea on how to solve this problem.

http://i.imgur.com/U6XcGFI.png
The top picture was the 4e default setting's (aka Points of Light) cosmology, and the bottom picture was 4e Eberron's. They made it so you could say "X is the Y of Eberron", for example "Dolurrh is the Shadowfell of Eberron".

Do you think we are done with that 4e nonsense? Don't be so sure! The 5e PHB does mention Eberron several times, including in the chapter on the planes of existence and the new Great Wheel.
All the worlds of D&D exist within the Material Plane
The best-known worlds in the multiverse are the ones that have been published as official campaign settings for the D&D game over the years---Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Dragonlance, the Forgotten Realms, Mystara, Birthright, Dark Sun, and Eberron, among others.To me, this isn't just an acknowledgement that most settings have the concept of a Material Plane. They totally want us to point at the center of the wheel and say "Yup, Eberron and Toril are both there".

[Tanarii]

Planescape is a setting. A 5e book on it wouldn't have all this freedom.This is what I meant. Pre-planescape, the Manual of the Planes was basically a idealized music-of-the-spheres one-size-fits-all generic multi-verse. Planescape changed that, and made it an immersive setting. A grimy one at that. :smallbiggrin:

Your other point is accurate too. Other than Oerth and Forgotten Realms, the planar structure doesn't really fit the published settings very well. IMO especially true for Dark Sun. I don't know Eberron but it sounds like you do.

[Tetrasodium]

Oh, I think it is way worse than that, as recent editions seem to have a clear idea on how to solve this problem.

http://i.imgur.com/U6XcGFI.png
The top picture was the 4e default setting's (aka Points of Light) cosmology, and the bottom picture was 4e Eberron's. They made it so you could say "X is the Y of Eberron", for example "Dolurrh is the Shadowfell of Eberron".

Do you think we are done with that 4e nonsense? Don't be so sure! The 5e PHB does mention Eberron several times, including in the chapter on the planes of existence and the new Great Wheel.To me, this isn't just an acknowledgement that most settings have the concept of a Material Plane. They totally want us to point at the center of the wheel and say "Yup, Eberron and Toril are both there".


While I agree that a lot of FR centric stuff occasionally tries to obnoxiously shoehorn other non-FR settings into FR's tolkien inspired unconnected bland uninspired mishmash of unconnected randomness, it ignores the fact that many of those settings have things that are so wildly different it's simply not possible & blatantly disruptive to shoehorn them in no matter how bug your crowbar is

[Steampunkette]

Dark Sun has the Elemental Planes, the Grey, the Black, and the Hollow.

The Grey is a sphere keeping Athas isolated from all other realities and planes. There are no Gods or Archdevils warring on the upper or lower planes. There is no moving on to the afterlife and receiving the rewards or punishments one deserves based on their life.

There is only the Grey. A seemingly endless expanse of grey stretching on in all directions. When one dies, one's soul goes to the Grey, and wanders until the soul dissipates, slowly losing all sense of time, place, or Self. Those who have traveled to the Grey and spoken with the residents learn that all of them are "No One" and all of them are "Nowhere".

The Black is a pit of Darkness in the Grey, inimicable to life, it has never been successfully explored by even the most powerful Defilers or talented masters of the Way. Great evil lies within, and it is from the Black that undead spill forth.

The Hollow is unknown to most Athasians. It is a prison built within the Black by the Champions of Rajaat as a prison for Rajaat the Fallen Pyreen, whose Cleansing Wars employed human Defilers to destroy all races save halflings and humans, that he might one day Cleanse the world of the only remaining "Progeny" race, humans, himself... starting with the very Champions he elevated to power.

Beyond the Grey, from those few who are rumored to have passed beyond it's borders through powerful psionic trials, lies desolation and destruction. Endless battlefields of carnage, filled with unrotting corpses of those who may have died a day, or an infinite number of days, before.

So yeah! The whole 3.5/4e/5e Cosmology setup does not work at -all- for Dark Sun.

[Millstone85]

I don't know Eberron but it sounds like you do.More or less, but rather less than more.

I was introduced to D&D during 4e, and I remember the DM putting all three PHBs, the FRPG and the EPG on the table so I could browse through and make a character. At the time, I am not sure I understood the continents of Faerûn and Khorvaire did not share a planet, let alone the same cosmology or the same nonexistent unified D&D canon.

And now, you could say that I learned from a pet peeve. Like how 4e FR had the Abyss fall into the Elemental Chaos so its cosmology would be closer to the edition's default, according to which the Abyss was created there by Tharizdun (but not the Tharizdun of Greyhawk, just a similar deity with the same name).

So annoying.


So yeah! The whole 3.5/4e/5e Cosmology setup does not work at -all- for Dark Sun.That did not stop 4e Dark Sun from explaining how the Gray is also known as the Shadowfell, how Athas once had a Feywild that now only subsists as scattered pockets of reality that all together "would fit inside the walls of Tyr", how a few travelers managed to reach the Astral Sea beyond the Gray, and so on.

4e tried really hard to standardise the cosmology across the settings.


it ignores the fact that many of those settings have things that are so wildly different it's simply not possible & blatantly disruptive to shoehorn them in no matter how bug your crowbar isI can still see WotC come with their crowbar.

[Tetrasodium]

Dark Sun has the Elemental Planes, the Grey, the Black, and the Hollow.

The Grey is a sphere keeping Athas isolated from all other realities and planes. There are no Gods or Archdevils warring on the upper or lower planes. There is no moving on to the afterlife and receiving the rewards or punishments one deserves based on their life.

There is only the Grey. A seemingly endless expanse of grey stretching on in all directions. When one dies, one's soul goes to the Grey, and wanders until the soul dissipates, slowly losing all sense of time, place, or Self. Those who have traveled to the Grey and spoken with the residents learn that all of them are "No One" and all of them are "Nowhere".

The Black is a pit of Darkness in the Grey, inimicable to life, it has never been successfully explored by even the most powerful Defilers or talented masters of the Way. Great evil lies within, and it is from the Black that undead spill forth.

The Hollow is unknown to most Athasians. It is a prison built within the Black by the Champions of Rajaat as a prison for Rajaat the Fallen Pyreen, whose Cleansing Wars employed human Defilers to destroy all races save halflings and humans, that he might one day Cleanse the world of the only remaining "Progeny" race, humans, himself... starting with the very Champions he elevated to power.

Beyond the Grey, from those few who are rumored to have passed beyond it's borders through powerful psionic trials, lies desolation and destruction. Endless battlefields of carnage, filled with unrotting corpses of those who may have died a day, or an infinite number of days, before.

So yeah! The whole 3.5/4e/5e Cosmology setup does not work at -all- for Dark Sun.

bizarrely, it sounds like darksun's planar cosmology is at least semi-compatible with eberron's. Eberron has some elemental planes, planes of dreams/madness where some very very bad ass ancient evils are banished (badass enough to worry "the dragons" in general as a whole). I'm not sure about alignment axis planes. when you die, you go to Dolurhh (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dolurrh) which is... welll "a hopeless gray waste where mortal souls go after death. It is not a reward, nor a punishment, it simply is. Dolurrh is timeless, and people who visit Dolurrh are slowly overcome with apathy and eventually fade, turning into a shade".

There may or may not be gods in eberron, pray to them or don't, want to be a chaotic evil genocidal baby murdering psychopath cleric of the sovereign host (a pantheon of the goodish dities)/silver flame who prays to his sword in 3.5... sure go for it.....

In general, the only important planes to eberron are xoriat (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Xoriat) (madness/nightmares), Dal Quor (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dal_Quor), & may be but probably not Dolurhh (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dolurrh). the lords of madness (not gods & banished before humans came around) & dal quor (quori & kalashtar are linked up there). Dolurhh is probabloy not very important but hey whatever. It's hard to say because almost nothing has been published about the planes in eberron that couldn't be copied badly from FR about the elemental planes beyond the fact that you can't always get from plane a to plane B without traveling to points X Y & Z in Planes L P & Q. to get from 0one to another, and that getting to dsal quor can really only happem in dreams/getting to xoriat is effectively impossible.

[Tetrasodium]

More or less, but rather less than more.

That did not stop 4e Dark Sun from explaining how the Gray is also known as the Shadowfell, how Athas once had a Feywild that now only subsists as scattered pockets of reality that all together "would fit inside the walls of Tyr", how a few travelers managed to reach the Astral Sea beyond the Gray, and so on.

4e tried really hard to standardise the cosmology across the settings.

I can still see WotC come with their crowbar.

The thing that pisses me off most about it is that it only goes one way. You never see non-FR religions/planar names/etc mentioned in FR & people get pissy when you say things like "my LE Kobold/orc worships the shadow for creating the monster races one of the dark six gods)" instead of tiamat/grummish, but WotC tries so hard toshoehorn FR stuff everywhere else of the exclusion of all else (ie the monster manual might as well be "monsters of FR & Faerun" right down to talking about places there in FR without even tangentially mentioning anything from other settings) so people get all pissy when you nix an overbearing & crazy disruptive paladin of pelor or something by telling them "well pelor might have been some little bacj woods barbarian god that got consumed into & cooptred one of the soverign host& umm... that's actually the silver flame's stchick man, they almostsucceeded at comitting genocide of the shifter race trying to get rid of were-whatevers a few hundred years back even..."

[Steampunkette]

Eberron has all of the standard D&D planes presented in 3rd edition. It's a core canon feature of the setting. It's billed, and was developed, as a world created from the ground up as having all of the elements of 3rd edition D&D.

Which means that it has the various "Standard" planes though they do have different names, like Mabar, the Endless Night as the Negative Energy Plane, or Irian the Eternal Day for the Positive Energy Plane. Kythri the Churning Chaos is Limbo, while Daanvi the Perfect Order is essentially Mechanus. Shavarath stands in for Hell, Heaven, and the Abyss as a massive battlefield with three eternal armies fighting on it, forever.

The Cosmology also expressly includes the Plane of Shadow, the Ethereal Plane, and the Astral Plane.

None of these exist within the Dark Sun Setting, no other civilizations lay beyond the margins of the Olive-Tinged Sky. There are no Faerie Courts in Thelanis, no Werebeasts hiding in the Twilight Forest of Lammania. No holdfasts of Angels, no contingents of devils, no coterie of demons waging war in the Grey or the Black.

There is no Sovereign Host. No Dol Arrah ruling over Syrania the Azure Sky from on high above the angel armies.

There is nothing but Athas, drifting in the Grey, as elemental planes touch the burnt out remnants of what was once a world of water under a sapphire sun...

Dolurrh is where the similarities begin... and end.

[Steampunkette]

The thing that pisses me off most about it is that it only goes one way. You never see non-FR religions/planar names/etc mentioned in FR & people get pissy when you say things like "my LE Kobold/orc worships the shadow for creating the monster races one of the dark six gods)" instead of tiamat/grummish, but WotC tries so hard toshoehorn FR stuff everywhere else of the exclusion of all else (ie the monster manual might as well be "monsters of FR & Faerun" right down to talking about places there in FR without even tangentially mentioning anything from other settings) so people get all pissy when you nix an overbearing & crazy disruptive paladin of pelor or something by telling them "well pelor might have been some little bacj woods barbarian god that got consumed into & cooptred one of the soverign host& umm... that's actually the silver flame's stchick man, they almostsucceeded at comitting genocide of the shifter race trying to get rid of were-whatevers a few hundred years back even..."

This mostly has to do with the issue of creating a Standardized Setting for each edition.

3rd Edition did it with Greyhawk and Oerth, but it was never nearly so popular as Forgotten Realms. 4e tried to do the same with the Nentir Vale/Points of Light setting, and shoehorned it into Forgotten Realms by creating endless calamities across the face of Faerun in order to make it work like they liked.

5e, thus far, has done the -least- of that. Though our only current example is the Curse of Strahd, which has it's own complete identity presented as a separate thing from the Forgotten Realms. If anything it shows the possibility that WotC is ready to stop trying to make everything based on a single product identity and recognize that it is the dissimilarities that lead people to purchase varied products.

So... Yeah. I'm hopeful.

[Tetrasodium]

This mostly has to do with the issue of creating a Standardized Setting for each edition.

3rd Edition did it with Greyhawk and Oerth, but it was never nearly so popular as Forgotten Realms. 4e tried to do the same with the Nentir Vale/Points of Light setting, and shoehorned it into Forgotten Realms by creating endless calamities across the face of Faerun in order to make it work like they liked.

5e, thus far, has done the -least- of that. Though our only current example is the Curse of Strahd, which has it's own complete identity presented as a separate thing from the Forgotten Realms. If anything it shows the possibility that WotC is ready to stop trying to make everything based on a single product identity and recognize that it is the dissimilarities that lead people to purchase varied products.

So... Yeah. I'm hopeful.

They still do a pretty god awful job of it. I talked about a few monsters earlier, but take Harpies


Harpies have fully integrated themselves into their new nation. They are found in most Droaam cities, and serve the Daughters of Sora Kell in numerous ways; whether as a scout, in the service of the city guard, or as overseers at the various mines across the nation. Harpies also entertain the Droaam population with their songs during rest time, which the population simply call "harpy songs." [5] Harpy song is considered a narcotic in many ways.

When House Tharashk began recruiting the monstrous races for their services, harpies were among the first races to be hired by the Dragonmarked House. Most House Tharashk agents are trained in the ways of the harpy flights.[6] The most famous of these Droaam-recruited mercenary companies is the Liondrake's Roar, which includes many harpies.[7]



HARPY
Taking glee in suffering and death, the sadistic harpy
is always on the hunt for prey. Its sweet song has lured
countless adventurers to their deaths, drawing them in
close for the harpy to kill and then consume.
A harpy combines the body, legs, and wings of a
vulture with the torso, arms, and head of a human.
Its wicked talons and bone club make it a formidable
threat in combat, and its eyes reflect the absolute evil
of its soul.
Divine Curse. Long ago, an elf wandering a forest
heard birdsong so pure and wholesome that she was
moved to tears. Following the music, she came upon
a clearing where stood a handsome elf youth who had
also paused to hear the bird's song. This was Fenmarel
Mestarine, a reclusive elf god. His divine presence stole
her heart as he fled, vanishing into the woods as if he
was never there.
Though the elf searched the woods and called for her
stranger, she found no sign of his passage. Driven o1
despair by her longing, she begged the gods to help her.
Aerdrie Faenya, elf goddess of the sky, heard the elf's
cries and was moved to her aid. She appeared as the
bird whose song had entranced the outcast god, then
taught that song of beauty and seduction to the elf.
. When her singing failed to draw Fenmarel Mestarine
to her ~ide, the elf cursed the gods, invoking a dreadful
power and transforming her into the first harpy. The
curse worked its magic on the elf's spirit as well as
her body, turning her desire for love into a hunger for
flesh, even as her beautiful song continued to draw
creatures to her deadly embrace.
Harpy Song. To hear a harpy's song is to hear music
more beautiful than anything else in the world. A
traveler that succumbs to the entrancing effect of that
singing is compelled to blunder toward its source. A
harpy sometimes charms victims before it attacks, but
a more effective use of its song is to lure prey over cliffs,
into bogs and quicksand, or into deadly pits. Creatures
trapped or incapacitated then become easy targets for
the harpy's wrath.
Sadistic Cowards. Harpies haunt bleak coastal cliffs
and other places hazardous to non-flying creatures.
Harpies have no interest in a fair fight, and they
never attack unless they have a clear advantage. If
a fight turns against a harpy, it lacks the cunning to
adapt and will flee and go hungry rather than risk
straight-up combat.
When they attack, harpies play with their food,
delighting in the "music" their victims make as they
scream. A harpy takes its time dismembering a helpless
foe and can spend days torturing a victim before the
merciful end.
Gruesome Collectors. Harpies take shiny baubles,
valuable objects, and other trophies from their victims,
sometimes fighting with each other for the right to claim
the choicest prizes. When no valuable objects can be
found, a harpy takes hair, bones, or body parts to line
its nest. A harpy's lair is usually hidden in remote r'uins,
where adventurers can discover valuable treasure and
magic hidden beneath foul piles of offal

Who is Fenmarel Mestarine (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fenmarel_Mestarine) Oh look a FR god... Virtually every other monster race & a lot of the in between stuff is the same way in the MM....ooms for rent are part of a vast network of caves that stretch below the quarry.

[War_lord]

You could just, you know, reflavor them, since you're the DM. You're acting like because the MM is going with the more typical fantasy depiction of Harpy as humanoid carrion birds, that forces you to use them like that, when it doesn't. Eberron does its own thing that's really unlike what most other D&D settings do, if you like that, good for you. I don't care about Eberron, and I like the MM's generic approach, because it's easier for me to drop that version of the Harpy into my world then the very specific Eberron version would be.

[Tetrasodium]

You could just, you know, reflavor them, since you're the DM. You're acting like because the MM is going with the more typical fantasy depiction of Harpy as humanoid carrion birds, that forces you to use them like that, when it doesn't. Eberron does its own thing that's really unlike what most other D&D settings do, if you like that, good for you. I don't care about Eberron, and I like the MM's generic approach, because it's easier for me to drop that version of the Harpy into my world then the very specific Eberron version would be.


Yes I could & do, but that doesn't solve the problem thay everything needs to be corrected in player brains who react to something like this


you can't pretend that the two are even related cousins making it extremely difficult when you introduce them in roles like this because they all have FR shoved down their throats everywhere they turn. Look at the DM's guild rules. No specific setting or FR... in practice it amounts to FR everywhere you turn & any published content they create.
[quote]
The Labyrinth. Located in the monstrous city of Graywall, the Labyrinth is built into an old quarry. A vast awning keeps rain from flooding the quarry, and customers descend a spiral ramp to get down to the common room. A medusa manages the bar, and the statues scattered around are a warning to those who might cause trouble. Goblins and gnolls surround the central firepit, cheering for the harpy performing mesmerizing torch songs. The r

[Honest Tiefling]

Hands up from everyone who saw players playing in Forgotten Realms using Greyhawk lore way back in 3rd edition.

The most common mistake was assuming that druids and rangers didn't need gods. That was always a headache when people objected and quoted the player's handbook.

[Steampunkette]

They still do a pretty god awful job of it. I talked about a few monsters earlier, but take Harpies



Who is Fenmarel Mestarine (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fenmarel_Mestarine) Oh look a FR god... Virtually every other monster race & a lot of the in between stuff is the same way in the MM....ooms for rent are part of a vast network of caves that stretch below the quarry.

You misunderstand my point.

Yes. The core books are Faerun because the core setting is Faerun. But they didn't shoehorn in Forgotten Realms deities into Ravenloft (like they did with the Raven Queen in FR in 4e), they didn't restructure Ravenloft's cosmology to fit the current cosmology with 3e did with every setting. They didn't rewrite Ravenloft so Tieflings and Dragonborn are common races in Barovia like 4e did with FR.

The standalone material they've provided has been just that: It's own self-contained world with it's own self-contained rules.

I'm not saying Faerun is only in the FR books, I'm saying it isn't in Ravenloft, so far. Which is a good sign that Eberron (if and when it gets released) will also be separated from Faerun, rather than having a bunch of setting-stuff forced on it that changes the way it works.

[War_lord]

Right because only in FR are Medusa evil. Never mind that Medusa first turned up in D&D in 1976, a full eleven years before Forgotten Realms was a thing. Maybe a better place to point the blame would be at Keith Baker for beating the "the monsters are actually just like us" horse to death so hard it rose as a Nightmare.

[Millstone85]

Eberron has all of the standard D&D planes presented in 3rd edition. It's a core canon feature of the setting. It's billed, and was developed, as a world created from the ground up as having all of the elements of 3rd edition D&D.

Which means that it has the various "Standard" planes though they do have different names, like Mabar, the Endless Night as the Negative Energy Plane, or Irian the Eternal Day for the Positive Energy Plane. Kythri the Churning Chaos is Limbo, while Daanvi the Perfect Order is essentially Mechanus. Shavarath stands in for Hell, Heaven, and the Abyss as a massive battlefield with three eternal armies fighting on it, forever.

The Cosmology also expressly includes the Plane of Shadow, the Ethereal Plane, and the Astral Plane.Interesting. In that case, how drastic or minor did you find the World Axis update for 4e?


Hands up from everyone who saw players playing in Forgotten Realms using Greyhawk lore way back in 3rd edition.

The most common mistake was assuming that druids and rangers didn't need gods. That was always a headache when people objected and quoted the player's handbook.I did the same with druids in 4e, and it was a huge disappointment to discover that all the wonderful Points of Light lore on primal spirits did not apply in Forgotten Realms.

Even now, when I look at the description of druids and paladins in the 5e PHB, and then in SCAG, I shake my head.


But they didn't shoehorn in Forgotten Realms deities into Ravenloft (like they did with the Raven Queen in FR in 4e)Uh, when was the Raven Queen introduced in Forgotten Realms? :smallconfused:

[Honest Tiefling]

I did the same in 4e, and it was a huge disappointment to discover that all the wonderful Points of Light lore on primal spirits did not apply in Forgotten Realms.

Even now, when I look at the description of druids and paladins in the 5e PHB, and then in SCAG, I shake my head.

This is why I think a PDF would be neato, even if the settings never make it to the book. I don't think 4e Forgotten Realms is bad, but it is a bit like presenting someone with a roast duck for dessert after promising them a nice chocolate cheesecake. I actually like the idea of Akadi and co. being primal spirits because they were very lack luster in 3rd edition.

But there is also the point that I am pretty sure these books are out of print, so legally obtaining them might be quite difficult. Encouraging people to use PDFs instead of trying to reach a broader audience seems like a very strange tactic...Through the Magic the Gathering setting PDFs are really lacking in information from what I have seen.

Through I wonder if the video games made Forgotten Realms more popular then Greyhawk or what. While I doubt it would ever happen, having faithful representations of these worlds would be quite nice.

/ramble

[Steampunkette]

Interesting. In that case, how drastic or minor did you find the World Axis update for 4e?

I didn't really play a whole lot of 4e. That said, from what I've seen of it I think it's incredibly limiting for setting design. Particularly for settings like Eberron, where the orbiting of the different planes has a mechanical effect, Ravenloft, where other planes are essentially cut off by the Mists, and Dark Sun, where all of the other planes not being present is actually a functional difference of the setting.

I guess I should read the 4e Dark Sun setting's take on Cosmology...


Uh, when was the Raven Queen introduced in Forgotten Realms? :smallconfused:

Wasn't she added on as an attache to Kelemvor? A death-goddess in his service? If not that's just me misremembering or remembering someone's personal 4e method of handling the Pantheon Crunch.

[Steampunkette]

Well that was fast and easy... Reading the 4e cosmology was a little more than half a freaking page. >_<

I dislike that they added in the Feywild just to give Eladrin a door into the setting, calling the Grey "The Shadowfell" is annoying but fits well enough, and smooshing the Elemental Planes into the Elemental Chaos is kludgy at best... But the fact that they added in the Abyss is really freaking upsetting.

It also kind of pisses me off that they didn't even TOUCH on the fact that the Black exists. Much less the Hollow. You'd think with, like, 8 total planes to remember (Grey, Black, Hollow, Material, elemental) they wouldn't forget two, but you'd be wrong!

Man that's... yeah. It sucks.

[Honest Tiefling]

Wasn't she added on as an attache to Kelemvor? A death-goddess in his service? If not that's just me misremembering or remembering someone's personal 4e method of handling the Pantheon Crunch.

I remember her being in the Player's Handbook for 4e...But a quick glance through the race section reveals no ties to ANY setting, other then Eladrin being called 'Grey Elves', which was a Greyhawk thing. The other gods are a mix of the racial gods of Greyhawk/Forgotten Relams, new gods like Melora, gods of Greyhawk, and oddly enough, Bane from Forgotten Realms.

I thought that Forgotten Realms was the default, so I have no idea. Looks like Greyhawk and FR got drunk and shagged each other.

To further muddy the waters, Zehir, a 4e god, makes an appearance in the Neverwinter Nights 2 game. That game probably isn't canon, but it does seem like there was some sort of intention to start tying things together or someone was really bad at communication at WOTC.

[Sigreid]

Fluff books are never necessary. What they are is handy for cutting down on DM prep time and effort. So I would like some.

[Steampunkette]

I remember her being in the Player's Handbook for 4e...But a quick glance through the race section reveals no ties to ANY setting, other then Eladrin being called 'Grey Elves', which was a Greyhawk thing. The other gods are a mix of the racial gods of Greyhawk/Forgotten Relams, new gods like Melora, gods of Greyhawk, and oddly enough, Bane from Forgotten Realms.

I thought that Forgotten Realms was the default, so I have no idea. Looks like Greyhawk and FR got drunk and shagged each other.

To further muddy the waters, Zehir, a 4e god, makes an appearance in the Neverwinter Nights 2 game. That game probably isn't canon, but it does seem like there was some sort of intention to start tying things together or someone was really bad at communication at WOTC.

The 4e setting is the "Points of Light" campaign set in the Nentir Vale, and was a wholly new setting with elements taken from some previous settings.

http://nentirvale.wikidot.com/setting

It didn't get a whole lot of story/lore support over the 4e life cycle because it was simply too generic to really get people interested in it. But it did fit into a wider world that was never fleshed out in favor of keeping the borderlands dangerous.

[Occasional Sage]

I've run BECMI modules B2, B4 and X1 using mostly 5e. Generally adapting on the fly. I think the lack of pre-converting the module, especially the monsters & encounter balance, made it work even better. CaW is pretty central to the BECMI module experience, at least my favorite ones. It also taught me that 5e works VERY well with CaW style play.

CaW? This isn't an acronym I recognize.

[Steampunkette]

Combat as War as opposed to Combat as Sport.

Essentially, CaW is "Whatever side is more powerful is gonna win all the time forever 'cause they're strong so be strong, yourself, or die painfully." while CaS is "Let's put two sides in the fight that have a roughly equal chance of defeating each other and see how things play out."

He takes old modules and throws them at players without any kind of attempt at making it a fair fight and lets the chips fall where they may by spending minimal time adapting the combat statistics of enemies on the fly.

[War_lord]

CaW? This isn't an acronym I recognize.

Combat as War. Where there's a focus on using resources intelligently and avoiding fair fights. As opposed to combat as sport were you're expected to just charge anything put in front of you.

[Sigreid]

Combat as War as opposed to Combat as Sport.

Every time I read combat as ear I think "oh, you mean trying to survive." 😆

[Tetrasodium]

Hands up from everyone who saw players playing in Forgotten Realms using Greyhawk lore way back in 3rd edition.

The most common mistake was assuming that druids and rangers didn't need gods. That was always a headache when people objected and quoted the player's handbook.

Yes. To alll the people saying "just change it", you are wildly underestimating just how significant & constant of a disruption it is.


You misunderstand my point.

Yes. The core books are Faerun because the core setting is Faerun. But they didn't shoehorn in Forgotten Realms deities into Ravenloft (like they did with the Raven Queen in FR in 4e), they didn't restructure Ravenloft's cosmology to fit the current cosmology with 3e did with every setting. They didn't rewrite Ravenloft so Tieflings and Dragonborn are common races in Barovia like 4e did with FR.


No, I reject your point as underestimating just how significant the problem is to the point that you are even blind to it while saying trying to make that point as explained below.



The standalone material they've provided has been just that: It's own self-contained world with it's own self-contained rules.

I'm not saying Faerun is only in the FR books, I'm saying it isn't in Ravenloft, so far. Which is a good sign that Eberron (if and when it gets released) will also be separated from Faerun, rather than having a bunch of setting-stuff forced on it that changes the way it works.

Lost mines of phandelvar page 63 "Goblins have no use for human gods, so the Cragmaws
have rededicated this place to Maglubiyet (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Maglubiyet), the god of goblins and hobgoblins."
LMoP18 "Phandalin's only temple is a small shrine made of stones taken from the nearby ruins. It is dedicated to Tymora (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora),goddess of luck and good fortune.""
LMOP25 "Urmon records that a magic mace named Lightbritiger was commissioned by priests of Lathander (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lathander), the god of dawn, from the mages working with the gnomes and dwarves of the Phandelver's Pact."
LMop38 "Any cleric who examines the chapel's decor can attempt a DC 10 Intelligence (Religion) check to identify the deities that were once revered here: Oghma (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Oghma) (god of knowledge), Mystra (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mystra) (goddess of magic), Lathander (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lathander) (god of dawn), and Tymora (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora) (goddess of luck). This is an obvious sign that thebuilders of the castle were human."
LMOP49 "Statue. The statue depicts Dumathoin, the dwarven god of mining. Any character who has proficiency in Religion recognizes the deity. The statue is beautifully carved, and its emerald eyes appear extremely valuable. However, the jewels are clever fakes made of worthless glass, as lose inspection and a successful DC 15 Intelligence (Investigation) check reveals. "
I wish Lmop was the end of that...

Princes of the apocalype

PotA20 "The miners
began using the chamber to honor those who died in quarry accidents and to appease Beshaba (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Beshaba), goddess of misfortune and accidents. The Believers gather secretly at the tomb once every nine nights to see if any stones have moved—and if any have, they covertly meet the next night to discuss what the movements mean, and what is to be done. They keep the tomb and its strange secret to themselves. "
PotA 22: "The Allfaiths Shrine is a wayside shrine used by many faiths and owned by none. Priests shuttle out from Waterdeep in pairs for month-long stays. Each pairing includes priests of two different faiths arranged by Waterdhavian temples. The most frequent combinations are Sune (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sune) and Selune (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sel%C3%BBne), Tymora (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora) and Lathander (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lathander), and Tempus (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tempus) and Oghma (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Oghma). The visiting priests dwell in two simple stone rooms at the back of the temple. They bring their own vestments and holy items and take them away again when their duties end."
PotA 23 "Rumors of Evil. Among the guests at the Swinging
Sword is Brother Eardon (male half-elf acolyte), a follower of Lathander (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lathander), god of the dawn. Brother Eardon roams across the small towns of the North, serving as a messenger and itinerant priest. He recently came from Beliard by way of Westbridge, and he can confirm that"
PotA 33 "Goldenfields is a huge walled temple-farm dedicated to Chauntea (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Chauntea), the goddess of agriculture."
PotA 35 "god Moradin (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Moradin) appeared atop the Stone Bridge to rally dwarves of the Ironstar clan (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Clan_Ironstar) against a horde of ores."
PotA 36 "Summit Hall was established long ago as a fortified
monastery by the Knights of Samular (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=samular), an order
dedicated to Tyr, god of justice. A paladin of Tyr (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tyr) named
Samular Caradoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Samular_Caradoon) founded the order and its monastery.
A tomb within the monastery contains Samular's
remains as well as the phylactery of his brother,
Renwick Caradoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Renwick_Caradoon), who dwells in the Sacred Stone Monastery (see "Haunted Keeps" above) as a lich. "
PotA 37/38 "Long ago, the vale was the site of the summer palace of King Torhild Flametongue (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Torhild_Flametongue) of the dwarven kingdom of Besilmer (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Besilmer). In time, it became a sacred place where dwarves come to worship their gods. Some legends among the Stout Folk say the cellars ofthe ancient palace hide riches ofthe royal treasury of Besilmer. (Actually, the palace collapsed long ago, but the shrine survives.) Recent sightings of monsters and roving bands of marauders in the Sumber Hills (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sumber_Hills) have alarmed the shield dwarf priests who tend the shrine. They worry that enemies might find the way to the hidden vale. "
Reason to Visit. The Order of the Gauntlet (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Gauntlet) has allies among the dwarves here, and the characters might be asked to check on them in the "Vale of Dancing Waters" side trek (see chapter 6).
so on & so forth. the point is made, the other HCs suffer from the same problem

so if by "It's own self-contained world" you mean "references FR over and over as often as possible while omitting even a chance mention of other settings" I guess your right. It wouldn't have been hard to toss "soverign host" "silver flame" or whatever on Pota22, hell... the "dark six" would actually kinda fit with with the EE cultists in town, but that's not FR so no mention there either.

To add insult to it, the HC's tend to include a section like this "Khorvaire is a sprawling continent with plenty of thinly
settled frontiers, so it's relatively easy to find a good place to set Princes ofthe Apocalypse. Here are a few examples" It's a wartorn continent on the verge of a second civil war after the last 100 years of civil war decimated many of the places mentioned... & I should just drop in this "unexplored" place?... pfft.... Maybe some adbice on changing the HC to actually fit within one of the nations like here (https://www.reddit.com/r/Eberron/comments/675mej/fluff5e_what_changes_would_you_make_to_run/) instead of nonsense on how to seamlessly fit the HC in a backwater area & shoehorning FR stuff intp eberron things would be useful... but not the rest of that sectio.

[Millstone85]

and oddly enough, Bane from Forgotten Realms.Here is my "favourite" quote from 4e:
The Bane of the core D&D setting is not the same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms setting! Oh, there's substantial conceptual overlap (The matching names probably clued you on that.) They serve roughly the same purpose in the pantheons, their religious precepts have a great deal in common, and they make use of similar tactics and servitors.

Yet their differences are many as well, especially in terms of personal history, behavior, and even appearance. All that follows describes the core Bane, and it shouldn't necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn.This is when I finally understood the mess I was dealing with.

To see the designers try to pass it as normal, read the 5e DMG page 10-11. The "default pantheon in the fourth edition" is presented here as "an example of a pantheon assembled from mostly preexisting elements to suit the needs of a particular campaign".

[Steampunkette]

Dude... Those campaign modules are set within the Forgotten Realms.

Phandelver is not some town in Cyre, or a floating datapoint in a nameless world you can slap anywhere, it's a specific location within FR. They're ALL specifically set in FR. It even says it on the freaking cover of each adventure module. Using those things as examples of Faerun "Infecting other settings" is complete baloney.

Curse of Strahd is the ONLY material they've released, to date, that is explicitly outside of the current core setting of Faerun. And the setting? Faithful to the 2e releases. No "Well we changed the cosmology to do the same thing as Faerun." no "We're crossing Barovia with Abeir so there's a Tiefling and a Dragonborn empire, there." either.

It's Ravenloft, or at least Barovia, as it's own little island in the Mists.

That is the Standalone Product to which I was referring.

I can totally accept that this was a miscommunication, but there's no need for attacking me as a person over it.

[Tetrasodium]

Dude... Those campaign modules are set within the Forgotten Realms.

Phandelver is not some town in Cyre, or a floating datapoint in a nameless world you can slap anywhere, it's a specific location within FR. They're ALL specifically set in FR. It even says it on the freaking cover of each adventure module. Using those things as examples of Faerun "Infecting other settings" is complete baloney.

Curse of Strahd is the ONLY material they've released, to date, that is explicitly outside of the current core setting of Faerun. And the setting? Faithful to the 2e releases. No "Well we changed the cosmology to do the same thing as Faerun." no "We're crossing Barovia with Abeir so there's a Tiefling and a Dragonborn empire, there." either.

It's Ravenloft, or at least Barovia, as it's own little island in the Mists.

That is the Standalone Product to which I was referring.

I can totally accept that this was a miscommunication, but there's no need for attacking me as a person over it.


I'm not the one who said "The standalone material they've provided has been just that: It's own self-contained world with it's own self-contained rules", just the one who refuted the idea that WotC has been releasing setting neutral anything

[War_lord]

Punkette, I wouldn't bother. Tetra's ability to totally ignore what something actually says in favor of his own warped interpretation of the matter is legendary. I mean he's whining about how the FR inspired fluff in the Monster Manual makes it hard for him to run Eberron and raging about how players have supposedly had FR shoved down their throats to the point they can't distinguish it from other settings. Yet this is that same guy who tried to justify claiming Druids in metal armor are RAW by citing the existence of the Mielikki Druids, who only exist in, you guessed it, Forgotten Realms.

[Steampunkette]

Tetra, you might be the one refuting that WotC has released setting-neutral content... but there's no one who has said it.

So I don't have a clue who you're attempting to refute.

And yeah, War_Lord... I'm starting to pick up on that.

[Tetrasodium]

Tetra, you might be the one refuting that WotC has released setting-neutral content... but there's no one who has said it.

So I don't have a clue who you're attempting to refute.

And yeah, War_Lord... I'm starting to pick up on that.





The standalone material they've provided has been just that: It's own self-contained world with it's own self-contained rules.

I think you are & have been overstating the merits of CoS to dismiss the problem of FR everywhere, Lets face it there are a lot more similarities between dragonlance & FR than either to berron/darksun. nor are the undead in FR/dragonlance particularely different in ravenloft particularly different provided you find nonundead ones. Compare any of those to eberron or Dark Sunwhere the gm is left to piece odds & ends from a multitude of books so the can decide on the bits of legally distinct but still mostly generic Tolkienesque fantasy to sift out

[Sigreid]

Way back when I first got the FR boxed set it was a much cooler concept. If I recall correctly, it was described as being called Forgotten Realms because portals to other worlds opened and closed randomly across the world. The populations of various races were all descendants of people from other worlds who got stuck there. As such, it had beliefs, customs and gods from across the multiverse.

[Steampunkette]

I think you are & have been overstating the merits of CoS to dismiss the problem of FR everywhere, Lets face it there are a lot more similarities between dragonlance & FR than either to berron/darksun. nor are the undead in FR/dragonlance particularely different in ravenloft particularly different provided you find nonundead ones. Compare any of those to eberron or Dark Sunwhere the gm is left to piece odds & ends from a multitude of books so the can decide on the bits of legally distinct but still mostly generic Tolkienesque fantasy to sift out

I'm not dismissing anything, Tetra. I didn't even ADDRESS the "problem" of FR being everywhere. At no point was that any part of any of my points.

My point was that they didn't alter Barovia/Ravenloft to fit into a specific world-style, such as the World Axis cosmology or add Tiefling and Dragonborn kingdoms to the Realms of Mist so that PC Tieflings can ALL be Asmodeus's children.

That has, literally, been the ENTIRETY OF MY POINT.

The rest of this is you projecting your anger over FR onto what I'm saying, Tetra. And I'm done with it at this point. I'm not saying they're releasing lots of Non-FR stuff: I'm saying they're not changing the non-FR stuff they are releasing.

Which, to date, is only Ravenloft. I choose to take that as a good sign that Dark Sun and Eberron will, if they're ever released, not be twisted to fit the Cosmology/Identity of Forgotten Realms.

If you wanna talk about that, fine. We can talk about it. But whatever the rest of your current argument is, against the ghost of what you seem to think my argument is, is irrelevant to that discussion.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm not saying they're releasing lots of Non-FR stuff: I'm saying they're not changing the non-FR stuff they are releasing.

Which, to date, is only Ravenloft. I choose to take that as a good sign that Dark Sun and Eberron will, if they're ever released, not be twisted to fit the Cosmology/Identity of Forgotten Realms.

If you wanna talk about that, fine. We can talk about it. But whatever the rest of your current argument is, against the ghost of what you seem to think my argument is, is irrelevant to that discussion.

It's their own muzzling (http://support.dmsguild.com/hc/en-us/articles/217028818-Content-Guidelines), More Muzzling (http://keith-baker.com/sorcerers/) that limits it to FR stuff.




Rules

You can use the 5th Edition Dungeons and Dragons system.

You cannot publish content in previous rules systems (OD&D, Basic, AD&D, 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 3.5, 4th Ed).

Settings

You can create system generic content. You can also create content for Forgotten Realms (Faerun) and Ravenloft.

You cannot create content for Eberron, Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Dragon Lance, Zendikar, personal settings, or any other D&D setting that is not specifically listed above.[/url]
[quote]Before I start I want to take a moment to address the limitations of this format. Eberron is the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, and at the moment, only WotC can create new material for Eberron. What I can do – both here and on Manifest Zone – is to clarify the material that does exist, as well as talk about how I use it and interpret it. But I can’t create entirely new material. So for example: I’d really like to write more about the planes, but I can’t precisely because so little has been written about them – and it’s a logical subject for an official sourcebook or series of official articles at some point in the future. This is why I’m planning to post more Phoenix material here in the future. I can’t create new material for the Shadow Marches, but I can create material for the Fens in Phoenix… and give some tips as to how you could adapt that to the Shadow Marches. So keep an eye out for that. And in the meantime, the best thing you can do for Eberron is to continue to voice your interest and support – to be sure that WotC knows there is ongoing interest in new material!


Which is where the discussion was surrounding the need to release & unmuzzle back as early as page 1 & 2 before you switched from too expensive posts to ones suggesting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21984676&postcount=51) that because eberron has elemental planes of no merit or involvement in anything beyond a potential obstacle to cross getting to/from one of the possibly relevant planes that "Eberron has all of the standard D&D planes presented in 3rd edition. It's a core canon feature of the setting.of the setting. It's billed, and was developed, as a world created from the ground up as having all of the elements of 3rd edition D&D." followed by a lot about how much it has in common with The manual of planes planes.

That got followed up by talking about how FR is crowbared into stuff it doesn't fit into because of it being standard here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21984691&postcount=52) with it being a good sign that in the almost nonexistent non FR stuff they've allowed because they did pretty good with a pocket dimension/demiplane setting that is cut off from every other plane/setting by limiting it to that demiplane.

[Tanarii]

Essentially, CaW is "Whatever side is more powerful is gonna win all the time forever 'cause they're strong so be strong, yourself, or die painfully." while CaS is "Let's put two sides in the fight that have a roughly equal chance of defeating each other and see how things play out."

He takes old modules and throws them at players without any kind of attempt at making it a fair fight and lets the chips fall where they may by spending minimal time adapting the combat statistics of enemies on the fly.
Yeah, that's what it means. /Rolleyes

[Tetrasodium]

I've run BECMI modules B2, B4 and X1 using mostly 5e. Generally adapting on the fly. I think the lack of pre-converting the module, especially the monsters & encounter balance, made it work even better. CaW is pretty central to the BECMI module experience, at least my favorite ones. It also taught me that 5e works VERY well with CaW style play.


It can yea, especially if your players are creative & on the ball rather than looking for a "Level appropriate encounter" to mulch.


Yeah, that's what it means. /Rolleyes


Steampunkette seems to have mostly orbited positions that amount to "setting books to help GM's herd cats (aka players) are bad because he/she might not be able to afford them" & "X setting doesn't really need anything because you can just use the old books from 3.5 & this completely unrelated book from 3.5 provides so much detail to this setting that has nothing to do with it simply because planes exist" along with "but they did a good job with CoS & didn't try to add FR to a setting that exists in a disconnected demiplane so stop complaining about FR"

With that said. The problem is less building content or adapting old content as it is a standardized way to adapt and/or a nook I can pointr players to while saying "no, this is the setting. <--period"

[Steampunkette]

Yeah, that's what it means. /Rolleyes

When a party of 4 12th level adventurers stomps through a goblin village populated entirely by basic goblins it's CaW. When an Ancient Dragon rampages through the town where the 1st level adventurers are starting out, that too is CaW.

Those are both scenarios I've dealt with, by the way, in CaW games where the world is often but not always a sandbox/west marches style game. It's a game where the mighty crush the weak and the weak try to avoid being crushed (whether PC or NPC).

Sure. Some DMs grant some pretty wide leeway on how the fight can be handled (Kryptonite Pillars, Plot Devices, Holding the High Ground) which gives the weaker characters the advantage, but for the most part you're expected to simply avoid confrontations where you'd die and seek out confrontations where you'll crush your foes.

I'm not saying it's a bad way to play the game, not even a little. Just that it pushes towards certain playstyles more than others, particularly the "Fight or Flight" playstyle.

[Sigreid]

When a party of 4 12th level adventurers stomps through a goblin village populated entirely by basic goblins it's CaW. When an Ancient Dragon rampages through the town where the 1st level adventurers are starting out, that too is CaW.

Those are both scenarios I've dealt with, by the way, in CaW games where the world is often but not always a sandbox/west marches style game. It's a game where the mighty crush the weak and the weak try to avoid being crushed (whether PC or NPC).

Sure. Some DMs grant some pretty wide leeway on how the fight can be handled (Kryptonite Pillars, Plot Devices, Holding the High Ground) which gives the weaker characters the advantage, but for the most part you're expected to simply avoid confrontations where you'd die and seek out confrontations where you'll crush your foes.

I'm not saying it's a bad way to play the game, not even a little. Just that it pushes towards certain playstyles more than others, particularly the "Fight or Flight" playstyle.

I had previously understood from other people on this forum that what they meant by combat as war was simply seeking every edge you can get and using the most brutal tactics available to win. Usually with no quarter asked or given. Not necessarily an unbalanced fight by it's nature, but doing everything you can to make it an unbalanced fight.

[Tanarii]

It can mean either. But I read Steampunkette's post too fast, and took the 'fair fight' part as perjoritive.

But it's technically correct. There are no garuntees of a fair fight in CaW. IMO, usually for it to be fun, players have to be given the proper telegraphing of serious danger, or at least (generally) the opportunity to scout and assess the situation. There's still usually an assumption that it's stupidity that gets you killed, as is the general rule in most games of D&D I've ever played or run of any style. What constitutes stupid is different, because the assumptions are different. Namely that you will be or won't necessarily be up again a somewhat balanced fight.

IMO 'fair fight' carries other connotations from 'balanced fight', so I rather stupidly took offense.

[Steampunkette]

There's nothing stupid about it, Tanarii. Text is a medium without inflection or emotional cues, so misunderstandings and miscommunications are much more common. I'm sorry for my part in it.

[Steampunkette]

I had previously understood from other people on this forum that what they meant by combat as war was simply seeking every edge you can get and using the most brutal tactics available to win. Usually with no quarter asked or given. Not necessarily an unbalanced fight by it's nature, but doing everything you can to make it an unbalanced fight.

That's Powergaming, rather than Combat as War. They're easy to mix up, but one refers to a form of combat as realism while the other one is about getting as much personal power as possible. In games with CaW there is, absolutely, a tendency to Powergame, though, as it gives one the best shot at surviving things that might kill others.

[Sigreid]

That's Powergaming, rather than Combat as War. They're easy to mix up, but one refers to a form of combat as realism while the other one is about getting as much personal power as possible. In games with CaW there is, absolutely, a tendency to Powergame, though, as it gives one the best shot at surviving things that might kill others.

I don't think I was clear. I was talking about every edge in the form of tactics, choosing your ground to the extent possible, etc. I typically associate power gaming as revolving around maximizing the character as opposed to the situation. Though yes, there's a good bit of mingling in the middle between the two. I see combat as war as using practical tactics devoid of idealism to maximize the chance of winning.

[War_lord]

Well, the goal of powergaming is to create a situation where the PC is so mechanically powerful that all combat is reduced to Sport, regardless of the DM's intent.

[Tanarii]

Well, the goal of powergaming is to create a situation where the PC is so mechanically powerful that all combat is reduced to Sport, regardless of the DM's intent.I just got a visual of high level adventures on pegasi in ridiculous outfits with a pack of flying celestial hounds hunting dragons. :smallcool:

[Sigreid]

I just got a visual of high level adventures on pegasi in ridiculous outfits with a pack of flying celestial hounds hunting dragons. :smallcool:

How about on brooms of flying playing quiddich using some poor goblins and kobolds as the balls? A pixie is the snitch.

[Unoriginal]

Quiddich's kind of awkward, when you think about it