What creature has the best natural attack(s) for its size category in 3.5e?

[Nebuul]

If you normalized the size of every creature in D&D 3.5e, from the tiniest insect up to the largest colossus, which creature would have the best natural attacks? Is there an insect with a bite that does way more damage than anything else its size? Is there something that attacks 18 times in a round, but only for 1d2 damage per attack because it's freaking small?

Basically, I'm looking to do a combo:

Step 1: Cast Giant Size
Step 2: Polymorph into said creature

Knowing that you can be a colossal-size version of, well, anything, what do you use as a starting point?

[Heliomance]

The largest I'm aware of are Huge and upwards Earth and Water elementals, and the Triceratops' Trample attack, all of which do 2d8 damage when normalised to Medium size.

After that comes the Crocodile's tail slap (NOT the Giant Crocodile), at 1d12.

If my maths is right, all of these become 8d6 at Colossal.

[Inevitability]

I decided to check Serpent Kingdoms and wasn't disappointed. The ceratosaur, a dinosaur presented in the book, is Huge with a 4d8 bite. Advanced to Colossal I believe it should be 8d8.

[gkathellar]

Totemist, definitely.

[Karl Aegis]

The Stone Fist spell from Races of Stone just gives you an adamantine unarmed strike that deals 2d6 at medium size and 8d6 at colossal. It can be persisted, too.

[Nebuul]

I've found that the beetles in MM are heavy hitters, too. The fire beetle (small) deals 2d4. From small to colossal bumps that +5 categories to 8d6. Not bad!

[Esprit15]

Fang dragons get dragon attacks as though they were one size larger. Should have 8d6 on their bite if made colossal. For added fun, if you can somehow swing being a fang dragon and buff your caster level to 19 (since racial hitdice are a bane), you can take improved natural attack and make that 8d8, or just take it for your claws to have 8d6, and mix that with improved rapid strike.

[emeraldstreak]

A med-sized Prismasaurus would have a 4d10 attack.

[Esprit15]

A med-sized Prismasaurus would have a 4d10 attack.

What book is that from and what would that be at colossal?

[Nebuul]

It's looking like my best bet will be too just dip monk and pump my monk unarmed damage up to 2d10. If I take improved natural attack, then colossal+1 size will be 16d8 per swing. Fun times. At colossal size, I'll threaten 30' I think with combat reflexes.

[The Insaniac]

18th level Kobold sorcerer with rapidstrike and INA (claws) using shapechange to turn into a great wyrm fang dragon and a magic item of giant size to get to Colossal. That's rapidstriking claws for 8d6, bite for 8d6, tail slap for 4d8, and wings for 4d6

[Necroticplague]

What book is that from and what would that be at colossal?

It's from the ELH, so the OPs plan won't work for it (60 HD). It's attack does 8d10 damage. Unfortunately, no sizing rule I know of for 3.5 covers attacks with dice that big, so it's kinda nebulous depending on what pattern you wanna use for it. Colossal would be two size categories up, though.

[Esprit15]

18th level Kobold sorcerer with rapidstrike and INA (claws) using shapechange to turn into a great wyrm fang dragon and a magic item of giant size to get to Colossal. That's rapidstriking claws for 8d6, bite for 8d6, tail slap for 4d8, and wings for 4d6

I feel like there is a way to make this even worse without leadership or allies, but I don't know how... Does it have to be Sorcerer? Wizard gets Shapechange a level earlier. That's three levels to play around with. What classes progress natural attack damage?

[emeraldstreak]

What book is that from and what would that be at colossal?

Following the Core's pattern a Huge Prismasaurus' 8d10 turns 16d8 at Gargantuan, 24d8 at Colossal, 32d8 at Colossal with Improved Natural Attack.

[The Insaniac]

Does it have to be Sorcerer? Wizard gets Shapechange a level earlier. That's three levels to play around with.

You need CL 18 to get Great Wyrm Fang Dragon anyway.

[Esprit15]

You need CL 18 to get Great Wyrm Fang Dragon anyway.

True, but you can turn into a basic wyrmling and then cast Giant Size instead. Also, a great wyrm has a LOT more than 18 HD.

[The Insaniac]

True, I hadn't considered giant sizing from wyrmling. Shapechange has a HD cap of twice your CL.

[Rerednaw]

If you are a L18 arcane there are options other than melee.

On the other hand, if your goal is tons of melee damage, since natural attacks normally cap at 12d6/12d8...you could just go with a changeling warshaper. They can hit cap damage a lot sooner. A one level dip of warshaper works.

Warshaper abilities work when not in natural form...for a changeling, that's all the time. Girallon, Diopsid (sp? 4 armed goblin race), Marilith, Grell, pick any form you like and re-shift till the natural attacks max out.

I suppose if you pick a form like Fleshraker and shift using a spell or ability that grants the Ex you only have claw claw tail...but you get to add Venomfire to your triple attacks...plus pounce and the dex poison. So a L17 druid / warshaper 1 would have 3 attacks at 12d6+17d6 acid+1d6 dex poison. With the Grell you can pick up 10x 12d6 attacks plus paralysis.

Or you could just nuke em at range with your 9th level spells instead...or simpler combos like extended creeping cold.

This may get a bit excessive in terms of power curve (comparing to say a standard setting) so not sure how this would fit in your campaign...

[Nebuul]

It's mostly a flavor thing. Pretty much nothing is more dramatic than a sudden colossal-sized monster that smashes the ever-loving crap out of, well, everything. But I'm really leaning towards the monk thing. Imagine a full-flurry/snap-kick monk, but colossal. Epic.

[SirNibbles]

You could rule that a Monstrous Centipede's limbs count as 'hands', take Monk levels, and use each hand as an Unarmed Strike. You get 100+ attacks per round and a maxed-out Colossal Monk deals at least 12d8 per hit.

[The_Snark]

A twelve-headed hydra is a pretty solid pick: the base damage on your bite attack is only 3d8, which isn't great, but you get twelve of them, you can full attack while moving, and all of them add your full Strength bonus (+22, I think?) to damage.

[Inevitability]

You could rule that a Monstrous Centipede's limbs count as 'hands', take Monk levels, and use each hand as an Unarmed Strike. You get 100+ attacks per round and a maxed-out Colossal Monk deals at least 12d8 per hit.

Wait, what? Could you explain how exactly that works? I'm not so sure it does.

[flare'90]

Wait, what? Could you explain how exactly that works? I'm not so sure it does.

I'm guessing Multi-Weapon Fighting using each hand as a separate unarmed strike. I'm not going to touch the "Is Unarmed Strike one weapon or every limb counts as separate" discussion.

[Eldariel]

True, I hadn't considered giant sizing from wyrmling. Shapechange has a HD cap of twice your CL.

It's been errata'd to your CL, up to max. of 25. See the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm).

[Esprit15]

It's been errata'd to your CL, up to max. of 25. See the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm).

Yeah, I was about to ask. Was that a 3.0 thing?

[SirNibbles]

Wait, what? Could you explain how exactly that works? I'm not so sure it does.


I'm guessing Multi-Weapon Fighting using each hand as a separate unarmed strike. I'm not going to touch the "Is Unarmed Strike one weapon or every limb counts as separate" discussion.

Pretty much what flare said. 'Hand' is a very poorly defined term and Centipedes in D&D don't have a defined number of limbs.

Wikipedia on centipedes: "Despite the name, centipedes can have a varying number of legs, ranging from 30 to 354. Centipedes always have an odd number of pairs of legs."

EDIT: You could also be a Fangshields Druid and use Wild Shape with your Wild Shape Hands (Su) ability to simply turn all of your centipede legs into "hands that work as well as human hands". - Champions of Valor, page 41

You would need Vermin Wild Shape, Magical Beast Wild Shape, or 5 levels of Master of Many Forms.

[bekeleven]

Aah yes, this must be why all humans have 2 unarmed strikes at level 1.

[Necroticplague]

Aah yes, this must be why all humans have 2 unarmed strikes at level 1.

If you think that's bad, you should see monks! They can attack from hands, elbows, knees, or feet. That's 8 unarmed strikes at level 1! no wonder they had to nerf their later levels, to make up for the frontloaded 1st level.

[SirNibbles]

If you think that's bad, you should see monks! They can attack from hands, elbows, knees, or feet. That's 8 unarmed strikes at level 1! no wonder they had to nerf their later levels, to make up for the frontloaded 1st level.

Surely we can agree that that is fluff for the actual rule which comes one sentence later: "This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full."

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I was about to ask. Was that a 3.0 thing?

AFB but I recall even 3.5 PHB lists Shapechange at 2xCL, up to 50HD. It's just an errata applied later (the whole Polymorph-line has gone through countless errata changes). Divine Favor, Righteous Might & co. were similarly changed. Gate was curiously allowed to remain at 2xCL.

[Rerednaw]

Forgot to add, you can combine colossal monk damage AND say natural (claw) colossal damage with the Beast Strike feat. That's one of the ways to get tasty 24dice of damage. There is also the ACF for monk that lets you double monk damage in lieu of flurry as a full round action for a single strike...so that's either 36 or 48 dice for your one punch man depending on how your DM handles multipliers.