Why Can't Wyrmlings Fly?

[Palanan]

I’ve been trying to puzzle through the various dragon tables in the Bestiary, and from what I can tell, the first age category of dragons (wyrmling) can’t fly at all. There’s no flight speed listed for any of the starting forms, although there are other modes such as swim and burrow speeds.

Is there a reason for this, or is there something I’m supposed to intuit about these tables? The 3.5 Monster Manual is very clear about what size categories have what stats and abilities, but I’m having a hard time making sense of the Bestiary entries.

[Esprit15]

Huh, they removed that from 3.5. If I were to guess, it's so that they can't as easily kite players, and hence are more appropriate encounters for low level parties.

[Florian]

I’ve been trying to puzzle through the various dragon tables in the Bestiary, and from what I can tell, the first age category of dragons (wyrmling) can’t fly at all. There’s no flight speed listed for any of the starting forms, although there are other modes such as swim and burrow speeds.

Is there a reason for this, or is there something I’m supposed to intuit about these tables? The 3.5 Monster Manual is very clear about what size categories have what stats and abilities, but I’m having a hard time making sense of the Bestiary entries.

Check the table "Dragon Attacks and Speeds". Every size category has a fly speed listed, beginning with Tiny, 100ft. (average). Now each type of dragon has a size entry for which size their Wyrmlings are, so Black Dragon: Tiny. Blue Dragon. Small. And so on.

[legomaster00156]

Huh, they removed that from 3.5. If I were to guess, it's so that they can't as easily kite players, and hence are more appropriate encounters for low level parties.
While I personally don't believe any party should be finding and slaying wyrmlings without pissing off a much older, angrier dragon, I'm going to agree with this analysis.

[Psyren]

Florian is correct - dragon flight speeds are listed on their size table, not with their age category. This is because different varieties of dragon have different sizes (and therefore flight speeds) at the same stage of growth.

[lord_khaine]

While I personally don't believe any party should be finding and slaying wyrmlings without pissing off a much older, angrier dragon, I'm going to agree with this analysis.

Depends on the type. For some its survival of the fittest. And honestly in most cases wyrmlings are able to take care of themselves, eating most other things their own size, and being able to flee from almost anything they cant eat.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
…dragon flight speeds are listed on their size table, not with their age category. This is because different varieties of dragon have different sizes (and therefore flight speeds) at the same stage of growth.

What I don’t understand is why the stats under “base statistics” don’t list a fly speed, even though the statblocks for later age categories do. The black dragon’s starting stats include a swim speed, but no fly speed—even though every other statblock includes swim and fly speeds. Same for burrow speed for other varieties of dragon. There’s nothing but white space for the rest of the line, so it’s not like they’re somehow saving space by not printing it.

I’m not arguing that its absence “proves” wyrmlings can’t fly—I’m just wondering why the decision was made to not print the fly speed in the baseline stats, even though burrow and swim speeds were printed. It makes absolutely no sense to me. The omission is consistent across all ten dragon varieties, so clearly this was a policy, but I can’t imagine the logic. And as a great man once said, I can imagine quite a lot.


Originally Posted by Florian
Check the table "Dragon Attacks and Speeds". Every size category has a fly speed listed, beginning with Tiny, 100ft. (average). Now each type of dragon has a size entry for which size their Wyrmlings are, so Black Dragon: Tiny. Blue Dragon. Small. And so on.

I see what you’re saying, but these tables are a real hassle to work with. In the 3.5 Monster Manual, everything was pregenerated, so all you have to do is choose your age category and it’s all there for you. With the Bestiary, you have to cross-reference the statblocks with several different tables, and then do all the math yourself.

You’re essentially building the monster yourself, which is a lot of extra work. I can’t fathom why they couldn’t just put together a single master table.

.

[Psyren]

I’m not arguing that its absence “proves” wyrmlings can’t fly—I’m just wondering why the decision was made to not print the fly speed in the baseline stats, even though burrow and swim speeds were printed. It makes absolutely no sense to me. The omission is consistent across all ten dragon varieties, so clearly this was a policy, but I can’t imagine the logic. And as a great man once said, I can imagine quite a lot.

The logic is quite simple actually; the stuff you see in the base statblock is the stuff that's common to all age categories of that dragon. For example, "Chromatic Dragon (Black)" (B1 pg. 92) includes "{land} speed 60, swim 60" because every black dragon runs and swims that fast. But their flight speed and size change with age, so that had to go somewhere else. 3.5 instead conveyed this information with long and repetitive tables for each color of dragon.

This gave the Pathfinder dragons a lot more space to work with - space that was put to very good use giving each color of dragon new and unique supernatural abilities, rather than the boilerplate "breath weapon / SLAs / spells/ natural attacks / NEXT!" that we got in 3.5. For example, PF red dragons can see through smoke and manipulate flames, PF blue dragons can dry up liquids (including potions) and create illusory doubles of themselves, PF Bronze Dragons can create tidal waves and turn nearby ships into torpedos etc.



You’re essentially building the monster yourself, which is a lot of extra work. I can’t fathom why they couldn’t just put together a single master table.

They do include a couple of sample complete statblocks for each with the relevant info included (Young, Adult, Ancient) that the GM can just grab if needed - assuming that the average party is probably more likely to run into those than, say, Wyrmlings and Great Wyrms. But they're not going to do that for all the age categories, that would take up too much space. It's not that much extra work.

These sample dragons were also able to use the more standardized and legible statblock format, rather than the smooshed bricks of text that the sample dragons in 3.5 were forced to use.

[atemu1234]

The logic is quite simple actually; the stuff you see in the base statblock is the stuff that's common to all age categories of that dragon. For example, "Chromatic Dragon (Black)" (B1 pg. 92) includes "{land} speed 60, swim 60" because every black dragon runs and swims that fast. But their flight speed and size change with age, so that had to go somewhere else. 3.5 instead conveyed this information with long and repetitive tables for each color of dragon.

This gave the Pathfinder dragons a lot more space to work with - space that was put to very good use giving each color of dragon new and unique supernatural abilities, rather than the boilerplate "breath weapon / SLAs / spells/ natural attacks / NEXT!" that we got in 3.5. For example, PF red dragons can see through smoke and manipulate flames, PF blue dragons can dry up liquids (including potions) and create illusory doubles of themselves, PF Bronze Dragons can create tidal waves and turn nearby ships into torpedos etc.



They do include a couple of sample complete statblocks for each with the relevant info included (Young, Adult, Ancient) that the GM can just grab if needed - assuming that the average party is probably more likely to run into those than, say, Wyrmlings and Great Wyrms. But they're not going to do that for all the age categories, that would take up too much space. It's not that much extra work.

These sample dragons were also able to use the more standardized and legible statblock format, rather than the smooshed bricks of text that the sample dragons in 3.5 were forced to use.

Aren't PF dragons lower CR than their 3.5 counterparts?

[Psyren]

Aren't PF dragons lower CR than their 3.5 counterparts?

Maybe? Not sure what that has to do with anything.

[Lazymancer]

Aren't PF dragons lower CR than their 3.5 counterparts?
No. CRs are "condensed".

Younger PF dragons have higher CR, while older have lower CR which is caused by PF dragons having less HD - they are getting +2 HD for every age category, while 3.5 dragons were getting +3 HD.

Which is how Young Black Dragon is CR 5 in 3.5, but CR 7 in PF. On the other hand, Great Wyrm is 22 in 3.5, but only 19 in PF.

[Psyren]

No. CRs are "condensed".

Younger PF dragons have higher CR, while older have lower CR which is caused by PF dragons having less HD - they are getting +2 HD for every age category, while 3.5 dragons were getting +3 HD.

Which is how Young Black Dragon is CR 5 in 3.5, but CR 7 in PF. On the other hand, Great Wyrm is 22 in 3.5, but only 19 in PF.

Neat, didn't notice the bit of HD math going on there. Good to know!

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
It's not that much extra work.

When you’re trying to figure it out from scratch, it really is.

No doubt it’s simpler for those who are fluent in the system—but for the harried GM who’s running his first Pathfinder campaign, it’s extra work just to figure out what to do, and then more extra work to build what I need.

For those of us not intimately familiar with the system, it’s really and truly not intuitive.


Originally Posted by Psyren
These sample dragons were also able to use the more standardized and legible statblock format, rather than the smooshed bricks of text that the sample dragons in 3.5 were forced to use.

The 3.5 dragon tables make sense. They’re much easier to glance at and select what you need. It's all right there for you.

Case in point, I can look at the entry for a wyrmling black dragon and instantly know everything I need: size, hit points, flight speed, stats and saves, all of it. If I want that for the Pathfinder version, suddenly it’s a math project.


Originally Posted by Lazymancer
No. CRs are "condensed".

…Great Wyrm is 22 in 3.5….

My Monster Manual gives the bronze and copper great wyrms as 25, silver great wyrm as 26, and gold great wyrm as 27. Thus Pathfinder is even more compressed by comparison.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Neat, didn't notice the bit of HD math going on there.

And it took me about eleven seconds to look up those CRs in the Monster Manual. But I’m still not completely sure how to calculate the CRs from the Bestiary tables—and it’s certainly not easy to pick up on the difference in CR spreads between editions.

[Psyren]

When you’re trying to figure it out from scratch, it really is.

No doubt it’s simpler for those who are fluent in the system—but for the harried GM who’s running his first Pathfinder campaign, it’s extra work just to figure out what to do, and then more extra work to build what I need.

For those of us not intimately familiar with the system, it’s really and truly not intuitive.

*snip*

You have your preference and that's totally fine, there's no point in debating preferences. What I was answering was your question about why they did it - i.e. to add more cool dragon powers in the same amount of space (20 pages) without taking any abilities away. I sympathize if the presentation is not to your tastes, but hopefully you at least realize it wasn't on a whim (nor an attempt by the devs to spite you, personally.)

If what you want are complete, self-contained statblocks for each category of true dragon, the PFSRD has you covered (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/) with only a few clicks each. Beyond that, all I can do is wish you luck and hope both your questions have been addressed. (1) Wyrmlings do fly in PF, and (2) the statblocks are the way they are for a [good] reason.



And it took me about eleven seconds to look up those CRs in the Monster Manual.

For the record, I have no problem looking up sample dragon CRs. They're right there at the top of the statblock - which, as discussed, is now able to look like every other statblock. I was actually talking about the changed mathematical pattern between CR and HD in PF.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
…hopefully you at least realize it wasn't on a whim (nor an attempt by the devs to spite you, personally.)

I don’t feel any personal animosity to or from the developers. My only gripe is that Pathfinder sometimes feels designed by experts, for experts, and isn’t quite as forgiving to those less intimately versed in the mechanics.


Originally Posted by Psyren
If what you want are complete, self-contained statblocks for each category of true dragon, the PFSRD has you covered with only a few clicks each.

Ah! Thank you. I hadn’t realized the PFSRD had each age category statted out. That’s perfect and extremely helpful, thank you.

I also see that FGG has a version of the mist dragon, which I’ve been wanting to include from the 3.5 web enhancement. Very nice.

[Psyren]

I don’t feel any personal animosity to or from the developers. My only gripe is that Pathfinder sometimes feels designed by experts, for experts, and isn’t quite as forgiving to those less intimately versed in the mechanics.

Oh I know - I was largely being facetious with that remark :smalltongue:

As for expertise... I'd wager I didn't have much more 3.5 experience than you did when I came in (NWN and a couple of paper campaigns at most, over a decade ago.) I didn't even play 2e at all outside of Baldur's Gate... I nevertheless picked up PF pretty quickly. Different strokes and all that, but I don't think the gulf is all that wide honestly.



Ah! Thank you. I hadn’t realized the PFSRD had each age category statted out. That’s perfect and extremely helpful, thank you.

You're welcome!

I find it's best to at least reference a combination of all three main sources (PFSRD, PRD/books, Nethys) for anything I'm trying to do in the system. It's part of the reason I end up answering so many questions in the Q&A thread, because of all that reading.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

"Why Can't Wyrmlings Fly?"

Because they're like little baby birds. If you find a wyrmling, don't touch it. It's mother is probably still around, but is afraid to show itself while you are there.

That, or she's behind you.