UA Revised Subclasses: The Arcane Archer discussion

[Krestus]

Is it just me, or has the recent UA missed the mark (intented) on Arcane Archer entirely? I really hope they decide to push this in a very different direction. Wouldn't it be more useful, capable, fun, and flat out better to just be a hunter ranger and take all of the arrow modifying spells? Just do that and call yourself an arcane archer... It just feels extremely underwritten and not thought through. I can't see this having been tested at all and it's supposed to be a revision... Maybe I'm missing something

[Kane0]

Yeah it always struck me as odd they insisted on making it a fighter subclass. It fits so nicely on the ranger: They already mix archery and spells and have a bit of nature features on the side. All you'd have to do is add in some blasty spells to the list, grant an ability to imbue spells into arrows plus some other fancy archery abilities (seeking, phasing, arrow of death, etc) and viola, Arcane Archer.

Oh wait. (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2015/06/arcane-archer.html)

[Krestus]

I've actually seen several good homebrew versions, almost all of which are for the ranger. I really like to stick with RAW content in my games if I can- my fear is that when an official release is made, they'll be sticking with something similar to what they've already come up with. A sad loss considering how old and loved the concept is : ( I may have to buckle on this one

[Kane0]

Not to worry, chances are that if the AA comes out in an official book it will come a fair while after a bunch of other UA content. Theres plenty waiting in line in front, though given that it has been revised in the most recent UA maybe it's been put up in priority.

Still, it'd have to be a PHB II or something with the amount of UA backlog waiting to be officialised.

[Foxhound438]

Still, it'd have to be a PHB II or something with the amount of UA backlog waiting to be officialised.

They did a survey a while back asking if we would want a PHB2 style book

I assume the response was an overwhelming "you should have published it yesterday", because that was shortly before the UA wave hit.

[Submortimer]

I don't think making the AA a ranger subclass really hits the right mark. What I DO think the AA should have been is an alternate to the EK, complete with a custom spell list or a heavier focus on blasting spells it could infuse into its arrows.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I don't think making the AA a ranger subclass really hits the right mark. What I DO think the AA should have been is an alternate to the EK, complete with a custom spell list or a heavier focus on blasting spells it could infuse into its arrows.

I rather like this arcane archer. Though it's magicky it's not spellcastery. it's hard to figure out if it should cast spells or shot special magic effects . I think I like your arcane archer a lot (mfov arcane archer btw) but I would do something like, bonus spells to the ranger, all of the big and blasts and fun ones you think are needed for the arcane archer feel, (bonus spells are already the norm for some ranger subclasses) but for these bonus spells they can use their weapon as a focus and imbue the weapon with those spells. This way we don't ignore the other way to be a ranger (Melee) while giving the ranger the incentive to be ranged. Add in a cantrip like arrow effect (so your always arcaning it up) and maybe bonus spell slots?. Not sure what else but going from there is fine I think

This way we knock out two at once: Duskblade and Arcane Archer.

[Arkhios]

In the ranger's spell list there really aren't that many spells that work with Arcane Archer, and the rest just wouldn't feel right, since most of them have very high doses of divine magic feel in them.

Ranger's spells fitting for Arcane Archer:
1st-level: Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Hunter's Mark
2nd-level: Cordon of Arrows
3rd-level: Conjure Barrage, Lightning Arrow
4th-level: None
5th-level: Conjure Volley, Swift Quiver

In my opinion, if you don't like the UA Arcane Archer (I do, if someone cares), you could just (petition your DM to) add those spells to the Eldritch Knight as bonus spells known, or in place of other spells, and be done with it. And to be entirely honest, Conjure Volley and Swift Quiver would be a tad too much for a Fighter Chassis anyway, considering that you could also cast fireball or lightning bolt should you want to roll eight or more dice for damage, or that you can make three attacks per attack action for a rather big part of your career.

[Garfunion]

After watching The Dark Tower trailer. It is now obvious why they choose the fight class for this archetype. With a few tweaks it can become a gunslinger. Roland can even be seen using the Seeking Bullet(Arrow) arcane shot, in the trailer.

[DracoKnight]

And to be entirely honest, Conjure Volley and Swift Quiver would be a tad too much for a Fighter Chassis anyway, considering that you could also cast fireball or lightning bolt should you want to roll eight or more dice for damage, or that you can make three attacks per attack action for a rather big part of your career.

Well that's not a problem: EKs only get 4th level spells. 5th level spells don't even need to be a consideration.

[Arkhios]

Well that's not a problem: EKs only get 4th level spells. 5th level spells don't even need to be a consideration.

And that is why I said it. The lack of those spells is meaningless. Not only because you don't get access to them but also because you really don't need them ;)

[DracoKnight]

And that is why I said it. The lack of those spells is meaningless. Not only because you don't get access to them but also because you really don't need them ;)

Coffee. It's a thing I should have before posting :smalltongue:

[Specter]

Oh wait. (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2015/06/arcane-archer.html)

This is good, but it has manyflaws. First of all, the 7th level ability is useless when compared to other archetypes. Secondly, the Imbue Arrow mechanic is horrible on a ranger, because they have very little spells, so it actually makes them worse at spellcasting in long days. Also, why Sorcerer and not Wizard? Finally, Greater Imbue Arrow is good, but again you just burn through your resources twice as fast.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I think I'd rather the Arcane Archer in a potential arcane halfcaster. Like a duskblade base class that more about having slots than having spells known. Arcane archer would slide right in as a archetype to that. or even a cantrip heavy class (along with more cantrips) that could make up the lack of power with sustain and versatility with cantrips. Idk just spitballin here.

[Steampunkette]

Personally... I like the Arcane Archer as presented.

I'm tired of seeing Caster Classes as pseudo-vancian level-locked characters over and over and over again. We need some new casting methods and systems, new styles and crunch behind the way different types of magic work.

I'd give it more magic arrows per rest, maybe give them the ability to recover one use of their arrow when they use Action Surge? But... yeah.

It's a big part of why I like the Mystic so much: It's -different- from "Here is your spell list, here are your spell slots. Go play."

Give me a caster who doesn't have a set number of spell slots and instead has a handful of hyperflexible spells and the ability to empower them by expending Hit Dice. Show me Druids that don't cast spells granted by nature but instead pull power out of the world around them on the fly to create incredible effects. Give me a Mage who has to make a skill check to draw forth raw arcane power and lob it at her foes.

Give me different ways to access the same concept (Magic) and maybe give me the ability to swap out vancian spellcasting for each of them, or put vancian casting in their place for people uncomfortable with the weirder stuff.

Give magic some variety, s'all I'm saying.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Personally... I like the Arcane Archer as presented.

I'm tired of seeing Caster Classes as pseudo-vancian level-locked characters over and over and over again. We need some new casting methods and systems, new styles and crunch behind the way different types of magic work.

I'd give it more magic arrows per rest, maybe give them the ability to recover one use of their arrow when they use Action Surge? But... yeah.

It's a big part of why I like the Mystic so much: It's -different- from "Here is your spell list, here are your spell slots. Go play."

Give me a caster who doesn't have a set number of spell slots and instead has a handful of hyperflexible spells and the ability to empower them by expending Hit Dice. Show me Druids that don't cast spells granted by nature but instead pull power out of the world around them on the fly to create incredible effects. Give me a Mage who has to make a skill check to draw forth raw arcane power and lob it at her foes.

Give me different ways to access the same concept (Magic) and maybe give me the ability to swap out vancian spellcasting for each of them, or put vancian casting in their place for people uncomfortable with the weirder stuff.

Give magic some variety, s'all I'm saying.

yeah i agree. Arcane archer is harder to make when ou use the spellcasting mechanics, and it would be better as is with a bit more arrows per rest. (just give me 1 more man please!!!!). I would put the duskblade in this same category too, (someone make one pls) and some other classes from previous editions with very special mechanics.

Anybody know how to do Truenaming and Binding right in 5e? (though mfov has a good binder..)

[Osrogue]

I really like this subclass. You can technically build an eldritch knight as an magic archer, but this feels more like a magic archer than just an archer with magic. From 3rd level, your shots are charged with magic energy, and from 7th level, your shots are curving through the air. You have always-on magical abilities, but can augment that with a strong effect 1-2 times a day. It's more in line with the fighter chassis than the eldritch knight which is more of a hybrid.

Edit: oh, it's 2 per rest, not 2 per day. Even better. At level 15, it becomes closer to 3 or 4 times per rest. I like the recharge mechanic of ever ready shot more than for battlemasters, because arcane archers have a smaller pool. It's quite reasonable to use 2 arcane arrows in one combat and get half of those resources back the next combat than to use a larger pool and only get a small fraction of it back.

My only issue is that there is no scaling scaling in the arcane arrows until a big jump at level 18. They all increase by 2d6. I feel like that increase should have been 1d6, and they should have stuck the other 1d6 on level 10 or so.

[Sir cryosin]

After watching The Dark Tower trailer. It is now obvious why they choose the fight class for this archetype. With a few tweaks it can become a gunslinger. Roland can even be seen using the Seeking Bullet(Arrow) arcane shot, in the trailer.

I have actually used the older AA as a gunslinger. And I like this one a little more but I also think that it needs a bit more work but I just can't put my finger on it. Actually now thinking about it they should just call this gunslinger and try over again for a AA on the ranger.

[Zaq]

I mostly just hate how few uses you get of your signature ability.

[Steampunkette]

They get two uses per short rest? That's as often as a Warlock gets to cast spells.

Though, for my part, I would have them gain more uses later, much like the Warlock.

[jaappleton]

Personally... I like the Arcane Archer as presented.

I'm tired of seeing Caster Classes as pseudo-vancian level-locked characters over and over and over again. We need some new casting methods and systems, new styles and crunch behind the way different types of magic work.

I'd give it more magic arrows per rest, maybe give them the ability to recover one use of their arrow when they use Action Surge? But... yeah.

It's a big part of why I like the Mystic so much: It's -different- from "Here is your spell list, here are your spell slots. Go play."

Give me a caster who doesn't have a set number of spell slots and instead has a handful of hyperflexible spells and the ability to empower them by expending Hit Dice. Show me Druids that don't cast spells granted by nature but instead pull power out of the world around them on the fly to create incredible effects. Give me a Mage who has to make a skill check to draw forth raw arcane power and lob it at her foes.

Give me different ways to access the same concept (Magic) and maybe give me the ability to swap out vancian spellcasting for each of them, or put vancian casting in their place for people uncomfortable with the weirder stuff.

Give magic some variety, s'all I'm saying.

Love this idea. I got excited for the Mystic for the same reasons. We all know what spells are what, how they operate, the great ones and the subpar ones.

Let's get some NEW stuff, not just new ways to use old stuff.

[rbstr]

I like the idea of "magic but not spellcaster" too. Both the Arcane Archer and the Blade Bard's new fancy attack thingy is kinda like that too. Smites kind of count as well, that's lots of fun too.

It'd be cool to have an Arcane half-ish caster based on these sorts of ideas. Maybe have slots but no real spells known for doing magic-infused attacking that scalesa bit? Perhaps a kind of grab bag feature like the Warlock Invocations to bring in a bit of at-will/utility casting.
A gish more like a FinalFantasy Spellblade/Mystic Knight that doesn't really cast spells so much as beat people over the head with them.
Like was said earlier, it's not a "Fighter: Now with Spellcasting" like the EK, but a Magic Fighter.

[MrStabby]

Like was said earlier, it's not a "Fighter: Now with Spellcasting" like the EK, but a Magic Fighter.

Yeah, i think arcane archer as an archetype of a whole new class is the best option. Maybe something like the monk class with Ki. Ki (or equivalent) can empower both archery trick shots and also arcane effects.

[cotofpoffee]

I like the fact that it's a magic archer without spellcasting. I also like the fact that it's a non-Ranger subclass that is focused on ranged combat. We don't get a lot of those.

The ranger already has a handful of "deliver spell effects with ranged attack" spells. I'm glad the arcane archer isn't just another version of that.

[Kryx]

I made the Arcane Archer based on the Eldritch Knight model as part of my Fighter Rework (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxGh_mU9ihaPQXdxOE44VWFibU0). I haven't posted it anywhere for full review so it may have some balance issues, but perhaps others may be inspired by it.

[suplee215]

Is it just fluff reasons or mechanical reasons that the Arcane Archer cannot use crossbows with their features? I get a traditionalist would stick to the bows but the fact that the class allows other races to use it when tradition says elf only make me think a crossbow wouldn't be too bad. And while the hand crossbow can eek out an extra shot, it does so at the expanse of magic arrow possibility. The +1 average damage from a heavy crossbow doesn't feel like that big a deal.

[Arkhios]

Is it just fluff reasons or mechanical reasons that the Arcane Archer cannot use crossbows with their features? I get a traditionalist would stick to the bows but the fact that the class allows other races to use it when tradition says elf only make me think a crossbow wouldn't be too bad. And while the hand crossbow can eek out an extra shot, it does so at the expanse of magic arrow possibility. The +1 average damage from a heavy crossbow doesn't feel like that big a deal.

It (Arcane Archer) is originally an elven (and thus, half-elven) tradition. Elves have a long tradition of using bows (primarily longbows).

Also, traditionally Archer has always referred to someone using a bow. (And I'm not saying that with a game's rules in mind but with the origin of the word in question)

See for yourselves (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=archer)

[suplee215]

It (Arcane Archer) is originally an elven (and thus, half-elven) tradition. Elves have a long tradition of using bows (primarily longbows).

Also, traditionally Archer has always referred to someone using a bow. (And I'm not saying that with a game's rules in mind but with the origin of the word in question)

See for yourselves (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=archer)

Yea but I am sure if we held every class and subclass to etymology we will run into problems. The fluff for the UA itself states that other races are developing their own in the subclass so I don't see why they will stick to the elves' rules.

[Arkhios]

Yea but I am sure if we held every class and subclass to etymology we will run into problems. The fluff for the UA itself states that other races are developing their own in the subclass so I don't see why they will stick to the elves' rules.

Note, while I acknowledge it as tradition, I didn't say I wouldn't let other races or even weapons being used. In my opinion, Crossbows wouldn't be too bad, for example. Even Firearms would be quite alright, considering that if a DM allowed Firearms in their games, letting an Arcane Archer use firearms instead of bows wouldn't make a huge difference.

[suplee215]

Note, while I acknowledge it as tradition, I didn't say I wouldn't let other races or even weapons being used. In my opinion, Crossbows wouldn't be too bad, for example. Even Firearms would be quite alright, considering that if a DM allowed Firearms in their games, letting an Arcane Archer use firearms instead of bows wouldn't make a huge difference.

Fair enough, so it is only for fluff reasons then. I just don't like classes that limits your choice of weapon too much as it can limit the concept too much. especially as there is already a feat tax for going crossbow.

[thepsyker]

I really like this subclass. You can technically build an eldritch knight as an magic archer, but this feels more like a magic archer than just an archer with magic. From 3rd level, your shots are charged with magic energy, and from 7th level, your shots are curving through the air. You have always-on magical abilities, but can augment that with a strong effect 1-2 times a day. It's more in line with the fighter chassis than the eldritch knight which is more of a hybrid.

Edit: oh, it's 2 per rest, not 2 per day. Even better. At level 15, it becomes closer to 3 or 4 times per rest. I like the recharge mechanic of ever ready shot more than for battlemasters, because arcane archers have a smaller pool. It's quite reasonable to use 2 arcane arrows in one combat and get half of those resources back the next combat than to use a larger pool and only get a small fraction of it back.

My only issue is that there is no scaling scaling in the arcane arrows until a big jump at level 18. They all increase by 2d6. I feel like that increase should have been 1d6, and they should have stuck the other 1d6 on level 10 or so.

I like the scaling idea,.I would also like a mechanic that would let them gain an additional arrow use when using Second Wind or Action Surge. Thematically it would seem to fit with the idea those abilities represent of putting out an extra burst of effort and mechanically it would help tie the sub-class to existing class abilities.