Racial bonuses, stats, monk

[ZorroGames]

Just an interesting observation on my part, comment as deemed worthwhile.

Looking at stats and what racial bonuses aid starting stats I discovered wood elf monk.

Have started a backstory but number crunching with point buying gives this as a start:

ST 10
DE 14+2 = 16 for a +3 AC bonus
CO 13
IN 10
WI 15+1 =16 for a +3 AC bonus
CH 10

Monk weapons shortsword, 10 Darts
Dungeoneer's pack or Explorer's pack TBD

Tool: flute

Skills: Stealth, Acrobatics

Debating on whether or not to multiclass.

And whether, if so, to do so via Fighter (1 level) first, Cleric (Tempest) 1 level first, or Rogue (2 levels) at some point after starting as a Monk for several levels.

Before I add the fluffier parts of such a character's backstory I was looking for any relevant feedback about the statistical base of the character.

[JNAProductions]

Drop Strength or something to 8 to afford a 14 in Con.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Str, Int, and Cha are dump stats on a monk, they don't need to be 10.
Optimal Wood Elf Monk stats:

Str 8
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

First ASI gets you Dex 18 and Con 16. Next ASI Wis 18. Continue.

[ZorroGames]

Drop Strength or something to 8 to afford a 14 in Con.

Sorry, do not believe in starting with minuses in abilities if avoidable but thank you for the suggestion. There is such a thing as excessive "optimizing" to the detriment of story and Role Play.

[ZorroGames]

Str, Int, and Cha are dump stats on a monk, they don't need to be 10.
Optimal Wood Elf Monk stats:

Str 8
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

First ASI gets you Dex 18 and Con 16. Next ASI Wis 18. Continue.

Sorry, do not believe in starting with minuses in abilities if avoidable but thank you for the suggestion. There is such a thing as excessive "optimizing" to the detriment of story and Role Play.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Well I wouldn't play a monk without at least 14 con unless you're darts or daggers from afar and you're a weird ranger monk. Also it doesn't have to change you're role play for having a -1 in a stat, or change the story. In fact you could play off that to make a real character with flaws.

But if you insist the stats are fine (not the best but for what you want it's the best you could get).

[Mandragola]

Also agree about the 14 con. It will make a significant long term difference. I take your point on not wanting minuses, but sometimes a weakness somewhere makes for interesting RP opportunities. Your call though.

I wouldn't multiclass. Monks are one of the few classes that is penalised at every level by MCing, whether through delaying your attack, reducing your damage, delaying an ASI (which matters hugely for such a stat-dependent class) or several other things.

You could start out using a spear or quarterstaff rather than a shortsword. You get to use them in two hands, doing D8 damage instead of D6.

Being a wood elf means you get proficiency with some other weapons - but it doesn't make them monk weapons. The longbow is probably the most useful of these. You won't do huge damage with it of course, but it's still pretty handy. Pick one up when you get some cash - there's nothing much else you can do with money as a monk!

[Corran]

Sorry, do not believe in starting with minuses in abilities
Heh, I dont mind stats below 10, but personally, I really dont like odd stats (as there is rarely a benefit to having an odd stat as opposed to a round one -the only case I can think off, is when a dump stat is required to be 13 for multiclassing purposes).
Now, this (ie rounding stats), is not always optimal (no more than having no 8's is), so, I'll try to tempt you to round them (even though this is not an optimal choice). Taking resilient constitution seems like an easy way to do it, but it's a bit boring, so..... how about starting with 14 CON and 15 WIS, and take observant with your first ASI? It gives good bonuses to perception and investigation, and a +1 to wisdom obviously, but what I like the most about it, is that it allows you to read lips (I always loved that skill in 3e, and could never take it due to playing mostly classes that weren't allowed to have it). This would pair well fluff wise if you decide to go with the rogue multiclass (adding more roguish flavour on top of theives' cant- 1st level rogue feature), or even without the multiclass, if you aim for such a roguish/spy-type of character. As I said, nothing incredibly optimal about this, but it's sth I would personaly like.

----------------------

Now, this is my obsession against odd stats talking, so if after what I will tell you, you are still against a single 8, dont even bother answering this last bit.
If you finally decide to dip in rogue (as it was one of your options), you could easily have a strength of 8 without altering that much the image you have in mind for your character, assuming you put one of your expertises in athletics (which is the only str-related skill/ and not a bad choice of a skill to expertise). Of course athletics is not the only thing strength affects (it affects carrying capacity and str saves too, and perhaps a few other things that occur rarely), but it covers the vast majority of things that you'll do and are strength related. That way you could have a nice round CON of 14!:smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, I understand not wanting multiple stats at 8, but a Strength of 8? That's not bad.

I mean, your character, your choice. But you did ask for advice, and we gave it.

[ZorroGames]

Some very good arguments here about stats at 8 and rounding stats. I will give this a rethink later today.

I really appreciate the different views very much.

[ZorroGames]

Str, Int, and Cha are dump stats on a monk, they don't need to be 10.
Optimal Wood Elf Monk stats:

Str 8
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

First ASI gets you Dex 18 and Con 16. Next ASI Wis 18. Continue.

This is tempting but I would have to come up ( to satisfy my role play self) with a good reason.

CH, socially awkward because he is an introvert?
ST 8 because spent most of training working on DE?
IN 8, wow that will take some thinking 💭 to be comfortable.

Good thing I have not started adventuring with this character yet.

[Mandragola]

I find charisma 8 to be the easiest to justify. The guy spends his time in the woods practicing martial arts. That probably doesn't result in a great conversationalist. Maybe he's from a reclusive sect that doesn't deal much with non-wood-elves. Maybe he's haughty and looks down on people. There are lots of ways that could go.

He probably wouldn't be weedy on the other hand, after all that time running around in the fresh air, and there's nothing to suggest that he'd be stupid. A lack of strength could be an actual disadvantage if you want to do fun athletic stuff - though often acrobatics is a viable alternative to that.

But its your character. You could justify any stat as a weakness if you liked. Personally I wouldn't go with the three 8s, as that does always feel a bit over-optimised.

An odd-numbered con is particularly bad for a monk, because sooner or later you get proficiency in all saves (pretty late as I recall, am AFB). So eventually half of the feat would be wasted.

[Pex]

Sorry, do not believe in starting with minuses in abilities if avoidable but thank you for the suggestion.

Your prerogative, no harm no foul.


There is such a thing as excessive "optimizing" to the detriment of story and Role Play.

Harm & foul

No there isn't.

[dejarnjc]

Yeah, I understand not wanting multiple stats at 8, but a Strength of 8? That's not bad.

I mean, your character, your choice. But you did ask for advice, and we gave it.

I don't like an 8 STR in any martial character. It kills a little bit of the immersion for me. I mean it's not a big deal and I can get over it but the idea of a martial artist or any martial that is weaker on average than most commoners is galling. And yes, I get that it's a game.

[ZorroGames]

Your prerogative, no harm no foul.



Harm & foul

No there isn't.

Sorry if I upset you but that was just my opinion for my characters. Not trying to be offensive, just what I am comfortable with for my characters.

Your characters? Not my place to make critical comments about anybody's characters but my own. I don't have a problem with optimizing at all, just want my characters to be more "people" than paragons of perfection without being unlikely to be heroic material. It's fuzzy at times but 3 x 8 stats just was outside my comfort zone. Call me a victim of 1950s Superman syndrome perhaps.

[Rhaegar]

A little strength can be good for a monk. There is a monk in the game I'm running, and he occasionally uses his ability to spend ki to double his jump range. If you're going to do any jumping you don't want to have an 8 strength. Being able to jump over obstacles and difficult terrain more effectively shouldn't be underestimated. I believe his point buy for his wood elf monk was:

ST 12
DE 14+2 = 16 for a +3 AC bonus
CO 14
IN 8
WI 15+1 =16 for a +3 AC bonus
CH 8

[ZorroGames]

Pex,

I guess I recognize that not all Airmen, Marines, Soldiers, Sailors in real life were supermen but they had to be above average to do what they did in (specifically PTO) WW2, which is my model for my heroes I guess.

Maybe I over identify with my characters and the real heroes I have known but I do not want them too far below the line and not too far above the mythic. I realize this is a personal judgment call and, again, if I offended you I regret that.

[ZorroGames]

A little strength can be good for a monk. There is a monk in the game I'm running, and he occasionally uses his ability to spend ki to double his jump range. If you're going to do any jumping you don't want to have an 8 strength. Being able to jump over obstacles and difficult terrain more effectively shouldn't be underestimated. I believe his point buy for his wood elf monk was:

ST 12
DE 14+2 = 16 for a +3 AC bonus
CO 14
IN 8
WI 15+1 =16 for a +3 AC bonus
CH 8

That is good, too.

Thanks for your comment/suggestion.

[Citan]

Just an interesting observation on my part, comment as deemed worthwhile.

Looking at stats and what racial bonuses aid starting stats I discovered wood elf monk.

Have started a backstory but number crunching with point buying gives this as a start:

ST 10
DE 14+2 = 16 for a +3 AC bonus
CO 13
IN 10
WI 15+1 =16 for a +3 AC bonus
CH 10

Monk weapons shortsword, 10 Darts
Dungeoneer's pack or Explorer's pack TBD

Tool: flute

Skills: Stealth, Acrobatics

Debating on whether or not to multiclass.

And whether, if so, to do so via Fighter (1 level) first, Cleric (Tempest) 1 level first, or Rogue (2 levels) at some point after starting as a Monk for several levels.

Before I add the fluffier parts of such a character's backstory I was looking for any relevant feedback about the statistical base of the character.
Hi!

First off...

Str, Int, and Cha are dump stats on a monk, they don't need to be 10.
Optimal Wood Elf Monk stats:

Str 8
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

First ASI gets you Dex 18 and Con 16. Next ASI Wis 18. Continue.

Drop Strength or something to 8 to afford a 14 in Con.
That is very wrong. Many spells or abilities that aim to reduce/block movement target Strength saves. And a Monk that is not mobile is a Monk soon dead, at least until he gets at least both DEX and WIS to 18 (which implies a high enough level to get a decent HP pool).

Just keeping DEX at 16 (which does not change your starting efficiency) allows you to at least avoid a negative modifier in STR.

@OP: However, I agree that starting with an odd Constitution is a bit sad. So I would have suggested rather dumping either CHA or INT to get CON to 14.

Otherwise, honestly, I don't see any decent reason to dip only 1 level into Fighter. proficiencies are wasted and you are not a caster. 2 levels for Action Surge would be decent, but really Fighter is not the best match class for a 2-level dip on Monk.
Tempest Cleric is something else: self-buffs for you (and others maybe), with enough slots to use them at least on 2-3 fights in the end. Or blow everything on your Channel Divinity.
But I would probably recommend a Life Cleric 1 + Druid 1 dip instead if you were really looking for some casting. More efficient overall imo because larger set of spells and cantrips.

For a pure martial feel though, Rogue would be very good. Cunning Action may seem redundant at first glance because you get Step of the Wind and Patient Defense, but the former being resource-free means that in most occasions, you will be as mobile as a pure Monk, but with more Ki to spend on Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike. You may even use Expertise in Athletics to Grapple or Shove someone as you see fit.

Whatever you do, as probably most people on these forums ^^, I strongly suggest you go straight up to level 5. Extra Attack is too important, as well as one ASI (especially on a Monk ;)).
After that though...
If you feel you can wait a bit to get magic strikes (either because you got a magic weapon or you didn't get physical resistant enemies on a regular basis yet), then you may dip Rogue in place of Monk 6 and Monk 7.
If you want to play the safest hand though, better wait after Monk 8 or 9 (7 for Evasion, 8 for another WIS/DEX bump, 9 to get a great boost in movement).

[Pex]

It's perfectly fine you don't want any 8s. It's terrific you don't want your character to be below average in anything. The offense is implying those who do choose to have an 8 or two are incapable of caring about story and roleplaying because they optimized too much.

[ZorroGames]

It's perfectly fine you don't want any 8s. It's terrific you don't want your character to be below average in anything. The offense is implying those who do choose to have an 8 or two are incapable of caring about story and roleplaying because they optimized too much.

I regret your inferred that from what I said because it was not an intent of mine to imply such.

I do not believe that inference on your part is in my words but you obviously do.

Rather than quibble about inferences or implications which exist in our minds I again offer your my apology for any perceived slight you read into my words.

I still stand by my position that, for my characters, there can be too much optimization that affects my playing the character.

Accept my apology or don't. Rather than get farther off my OP topic I will leave it to you accept or reject my apology and no further discuss this off subject discussion.

[Citan]

Sorry, do not believe in starting with minuses in abilities if avoidable but thank you for the suggestion. There is such a thing as excessive "optimizing" to the detriment of story and Role Play.


It's perfectly fine you don't want any 8s. It's terrific you don't want your character to be below average in anything. The offense is implying those who do choose to have an 8 or two are incapable of caring about story and roleplaying because they optimized too much.
Well, to be fair his implied critic is right in many situations. I don't see many people actually taking subpar stats into their actual behavior . Although how hard one "should" stress a 8 is obviously very debatable because the perception of what really represents a 10 or 8 varies from one person to another. But even just adding a quirk like a weak arm or clumsiness in some situations for physical weakness, or being a bit stupid or short-memory for mental weakness, seems like too much for many people...
It's not *really* important but it is indeed a bit sad. ;)

[Pex]

Well, to be fair his implied critic is right in many situations. I don't see many people actually taking subpar stats into their actual behavior . Although how hard one "should" stress a 8 is obviously very debatable because the perception of what really represents a 10 or 8 varies from one person to another. But even just adding a quirk like a weak arm or clumsiness in some situations for physical weakness, or being a bit stupid or short-memory for mental weakness, seems like too much for many people...
It's not *really* important but it is indeed a bit sad. ;)

Correlation is not causation.

In a sense this is the opposite situation of how to handle social skills (any edition) when the character has an 18 Charisma but the player in real life is less than loquacious or the 18 Intelligence character but the player while not an idiot in real life is not a supragenius to figure out the puzzle trap.