Dark Tapestry Oracle advice/opinions

[Unbalanced]

Starting a Rise of the Runelords campaign soon.
I've built a Kitsune Oracle and would like some advice/opinions.
Not looking for complete optimization, but would like to avoid missing any important feats or abilities that I wasn't aware of.

Shikihara Yamada
NG Kitsune Oracle
Dark Tapestry mystery
Wrecking Mysticism curse

Drawback: Naïve
Trait: Rice Running
Trait: Domineering (Murderous Command)
Trait: Rich Parents

STR 9
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 18

1: Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Revelation: Gift of Madness
2: Extra Tail (replaces bonus spell)
3: Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Revelation: Pierce the Veil
4: Extra Tail (replaces bonus spell)
5: Spell Focus (Illusion)

Spells (by 5th level):
0: Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light, Purify Food and Drink, Stabilize
1: Bane, Command, Forbid Action, Murderous Command, Cure Light Wounds, Ventriloquism
2: Hold Person, Zone of Truth, Cure Moderate Wounds, Minor Image

Plan is to stay out of combat as much as possible and control via enchantments and illusions.
Will have a crossbow for back up and a last resort bite attack.

Very keen on eventually having 9 tails, but not in any rush to get there.

Of course, the plan is to complete the full Rise of the Runelords, but just planned out to level 5 at this point.

Any advice or opinions on feat and revelation selection is welcome and encouraged.
Any other advice or opinions welcome too.

Thanks.

[Pex]

Verify with your DM how the spell Magic Vestment would work with Cloak of Darkness. When I played such an oracle and looked for advise the consensus was the spell does work on it, but if you choose to dismiss it and bring it back instead of summoning it for the full duration the new incarnation of it doesn't have the earlier Magic Vestment spell on it. You would have to cast it again. Therefore if you are going to have the spell you are better off summoning the cloak and keep it for the duration.

Also verify with your DM if the Cloak of Darkness will stack with Many Forms despite it being an armor bonus. Consensus is it does.

Don't forget to know the spells Grace and Blessing of Fervor. You will love you for Grace. Your party will love you for Blessing of Fervor.

[Unbalanced]

Verify with your DM how the spell Magic Vestment would work with Cloak of Darkness. When I played such an oracle and looked for advise the consensus was the spell does work on it, but if you choose to dismiss it and bring it back instead of summoning it for the full duration the new incarnation of it doesn't have the earlier Magic Vestment spell on it. You would have to cast it again. Therefore if you are going to have the spell you are better off summoning the cloak and keep it for the duration.

Also verify with your DM if the Cloak of Darkness will stack with Many Forms despite it being an armor bonus. Consensus is it does.

Don't forget to know the spells Grace and Blessing of Fervor. You will love you for Grace. Your party will love you for Blessing of Fervor.

It'll be a first time DM. So he'll be quite strictly RAW.
And by RAW I can't see why Magic Vestment and Cloak of Darkness wouldn't stack.
They're 2 different bonuses.

I'd also agree that Cloak of Darkness and Many Forms stack. Just because your form changes, your Cloak of Darkness lasts for 1 hour minimum, so it should still apply.

Blessing of Fervor doesn't really mesh that much with my character, but it does seem like a pretty kick ass spell, so I'll probably pick it up.
Grace, however, doesn't really appeal to me. I don't intend to be in the fray, and if I do, I'll use my decent acrobatics skill to move around without provoking attacks of opportunity.

[Pex]

It'll be a first time DM. So he'll be quite strictly RAW.
And by RAW I can't see why Magic Vestment and Cloak of Darkness wouldn't stack.
They're 2 different bonuses.



It's not about stacking but whether the Cloak is a legitimate target to benefit from the spell. You'd have to target the Cloak and not your clothing to get the AC benefit, but yes it does work.

[Florian]

This will probably be a very weak build.
You´ll have problems affecting critters with immunity, like undead or constructs without having the appropriate meta magic feats. Magical Tail is generally weaker than the bonus spells known they replace, because their spell level tends to be lower. Ok, if you really focus on them to reach the ninth tail asap and then gain the extra daily usage for them, it might even out.

[weckar]

You may want to consider the value of having two cure spells of such close level. Personally I always like to skip at least one level, as they tend to turn out too similar.

Also, first Oracle I've ever ever ever seen who doesn't go Juju.

[Geddy2112]

As cool as magical tail is, they are SLA's and won't benefit from spell focus and such. It is pretty even trade from the dark tapestry bonus spells and the SLA's do come from a different pool, but they are lower level than the abilities you would be getting. That said, you get some nice defensive buffs otherwise unavailable, and you can still pick some strong enchantments from your spell list.

Cleric spell list does not have many good illusions(except silence which is very good), and the main ones you will have are SLA's from tails and the 2 from your mystery, so you might want to ditch the spell focus illusion for other feats. Illusions don't grant saves until interacted with, and depending on your DM they might stand for a little bit. In combat, enchantments are always stronger than illusions, and things immune to enchantment usually won't fall for illusions either. For other feats, improved initiative is always good for casters, eldritch heritage is very strong to nab a familiar(and improved), and metamagic at higher levels. I personally like extend spell to make buffs into all day things. I suggest you keep mystery spells that are enchantments, namely feeblemind(although using it against your DM might see the same used against you) and insanity as the cleric spell list lacks some higher level enchantments and your lower level spells just won't work against bigger badder monsters. Hence, you should probably grab magical tail a couple of times as a bonus feat instead of trashing your spell list.

Unfortunately your mystery has less than great revelations. You already grabbed two of the best, and cloak of darkness is on the list. For your others, I would take many forms, dweller in darkness, and wings of darkness(past level 11 so you get overland flight) as your other three. Interstellar void has potential at higher level because it exhausts and stuns, but most things are going to be immune or resistant to the conditions and cold damage by then.

If you really want to stay out of combat, swap one of your orisons for guidance. You can spam it on allies on combat at will, and out of combat. While a minor buff, it is at will and competence bonuses are not all that common so it grows well with age. Since you have command, there is no reason to take forbid action. Forbid action only prevents enemies from doing one thing, while you can just use command to tell somebody to "halt" and that's that. Command can do everything forbid action can and far more. I would dump it for some kind of defensive spell or buff. Bless is minor but helps. Protection from evil is always handy. Since you don't want to fight anyways, you can always cast sanctuary on yourself and buff your allies.

I am not a fan of zone of truth. It not only grants a save, but it is an area focused on you and the creatures affected by it are aware of the restriction. Once again, you could just command them to speak what you want to know. A much more powerful enchantment is calm emotions-it can end entire encounters in one go, and has a ton of out of combat potential.
Since you are going to have acrobatics as a class skill(and I assumed maxed from the trait, race bonus etc) you can probably live without grace and move away from enemies if you must(or just 5 foot step cast). Terrible remorse is a great higher level enchantment spell, as is waves of ecstasy at much higher levels. Focus on getting more utility and buff spells as you level up-you only need 1 or 2 enchantment spells per level but you can use the rest of your slots to do other things. While undead will be immune to your enchantments, and you do want to avoid combat, remember that you have cure X wounds spells at every level so you do have a potent answer to undead creatures. Likewise, you can always heal your party members.

[Psyren]

1) The cloak grants an armor bonus but I don't think you can actually touch it to affect it with MV. So I would second checking with your GM on that one.

2) To echo Florian's point - since you're focusing so heavily on enchantment, you will probably want metamagic (rods especially) of Coaxing Spell, Threnodic Spell etc. You'll still have a blind spot for constructs but those can usually be outwitted or you can dominate something else to fight them for you. The big problem though is that these metamagics won't work on the SLAs from your tails.

3) Cloak + Many Forms works, no problem.

4) I would strongly recommend summons. Some of your spells are definitely not worth a spell known (e.g. Zone of Truth), you should be getting scrolls for those instead.


You may want to consider the value of having two cure spells of such close level. Personally I always like to skip at least one level, as they tend to turn out too similar.

Actually, Oracles automatically add all cures (or all inflicts) to their spells known for free, so there's no reason to skip.

[Pex]

You may want to consider the value of having two cure spells of such close level. Personally I always like to skip at least one level, as they tend to turn out too similar.

Also, first Oracle I've ever ever ever seen who doesn't go Juju.

Oracles get all the Cure spells (or Inflict spells, player choice) for free in addition to spells gained from Mystery and player choice from cleric list.

[Unbalanced]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Definitely some good points to consider.

A few things:

1) As stated, the cure spells are gifted to me, they do not take a slot.
2) Avoiding summons and familiars as we have a 6-man party and a brand new DM. So we want to try and keep combat rounds simple and quick.
3) From what I've read, spell focus DOES effect spell like abilities. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kjnz&page=1?Summoner-Class-and-Augment-Summoning#9
4) Thanks for the feedback on spell selection, I looked at the enchantment list for level 2 and was pretty disappointed. Calm Emotions is a valid choice though.
5) I'm definitely going to be keeping the bonus spells Insanity and Feeblemind.
6) The rest of the party is Aasimar Paladin/(Life) Oracle, Ifrit Sorcerer (VMC Monk), Human Monk, Elf Gunslinger, and Gnome Slayer - So there's no need for me to be an alpha. I just want to remain effective, that's all.

Oh, and I'm aware the tail thing isn't overly effective, but I just really like the idea of it. Haha.

[Psyren]

3) From what I've read, spell focus DOES effect spell like abilities. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kjnz&page=1?Summoner-Class-and-Augment-Summoning#9

Assuming this was directed at me, I know that, but I mentioned metamagic actually. Florian's point towards you was that enchantment is useless against an awful lot of monsters on its own (vermin, oozes, plants, undead, constructs.) There are metamagic feats to help with that, but you can't use any of them with SLAs. Ergo, you need spells you can use when you can't mind control or confuse your enemies into beating each other up; if not summons, I would consider picking up some buffs for your martial party members, and ways for you to stay out of harm's way like Sanctuary and Spiritual Weapon.



6) The rest of the party is Aasimar Paladin/(Life) Oracle, Ifrit Sorcerer (VMC Monk), Human Monk, Elf Gunslinger, and Gnome Slayer - So there's no need for me to be an alpha. I just want to remain effective, that's all.

Oh, and I'm aware the tail thing isn't overly effective, but I just really like the idea of it. Haha.

Stuff like Zone of Truth and Ventriloquism are best left to scrolls I'd say, especially on a class with limited spells known.

[Unbalanced]

Assuming this was directed at me, I know that, but I mentioned metamagic actually. Florian's point towards you was that enchantment is useless against an awful lot of monsters on its own (vermin, oozes, plants, undead, constructs.) There are metamagic feats to help with that, but you can't use any of them with SLAs. Ergo, you need spells you can use when you can't mind control or confuse your enemies into beating each other up; if not summons, I would consider picking up some buffs for your martial party members, and ways for you to stay out of harm's way like Sanctuary and Spiritual Weapon.

Not directed at anyone in particular (mainly because too many people replied for me to quote specifics, haha) but I understand your point.

Also a valid point that enchantments aren't always going to work. I'm aware of that, but I do want that to be my primary focus.
I'll rethink my spells and pick up a buff/debuff or 2.


Stuff like Zone of Truth and Ventriloquism are best left to scrolls I'd say, especially on a class with limited spells known.

I'll change out Zone of Truth.
Ventriloquism is gifted by the Wrecking Mysticism curse, so not taken by choice.



REVISED SPELL LIST:
0: Create Water, Detect Magic, Guidance, Light, Purify Food and Drink, Stabilize
1: Bane, Command, Murderous Command, Sanctuary, Cure Light Wounds, Ventriloquism
2: Hold Person, Silence, Cure Moderate Wounds, Minor Image

[Florian]

Actually, why Oracle? You already have an Oradin, so healing and removing status effects is already covered just fine.
With your heavy emphasis on illusions and enchantments, why not go for the one class that is centered on using those, the Mesmerist?

[Unbalanced]

Actually, why Oracle? You already have an Oradin, so healing and removing status effects is already covered just fine.
With your heavy emphasis on illusions and enchantments, why not go for the one class that is centered on using those, the Mesmerist?

Valid point, but for the sake of the DM we're trying to keep it fairly core.
I also can't really be bothered learning an all new class. I've played an Oracle before, so I know the nuts and bolts.

Besides, a little extra healing never goes astray.

Also, I've got my whole backstory based around this, so I'd like to stick with it. Haha.

[Florian]

Then there´s not much that can be done. The cleric spell list is far from being well stocked with really useable illusions and without changing race, mystery or both, there´s no real way to add more so it would actually be worth focusing on the school.

[Geddy2112]

Besides, a little extra healing never goes astray.
You have an Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-Or-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot) in the party-your healing will rarely, if ever be needed. If anything, you can dump more HP into the oradin if they can't heal fast enough or are getting smacked around in their own right. But again, you can still bad touch undead things that otherwise don't give a flip about your mind magic.

That said, being able to control the battle with enchantments/illusions is an important role in its own right. Unless the sorcerer is focusing on enchantments or illusions(but with VMC monk I doubt they are) then you have an important niche. Likewise, if they are not buffing then the party is looking for you for everything from protection from evil, bless, blessings of fervor, resist energy, what have you. The frontliners in the party will be begging for buffs, and even the ranged characters like a good to hit bonus. Hold person and similar spells that render opponents helpless is a good setup for your bruisers to deliver a coup-de-grace. You can throw your SLA buffs like invisibility and displacement on your friends as well.

Lets look at out of combat-you have disguise self, charm person, suggestion and misdirection SLA's for social interaction. Invisibility/misdirection can be used out of combat to sneak with your gnome slayer friend, but with stealth as a class skill and cloak of darkness you are a solid sneak already(cast silence for super sneaky snakes). With diplomacy and intimidate you can cover these roles if nobody else did, and you have several knowledge skills you can help cover for the party to boot.

[Morphic tide]

Rise of the Runelords? From my limited experience with that AP, the game fell apart at level 5, your early threats are fairly basic Goblins with an abnormal number of Reach weapons among them. The opening act is fighting goblins, although there's an encounter with either a Fey or an Outsider at level 2 or 3 and level 4 and 5 has a lot of Ghoul fighting.

You can drop Zone of Truth from your plans up to level 5, a spell known is not cheap enough for that. I honestly can't remember any encounters where it's useful, the closest I can think of is questioning an NPC who turns out to be cooperating with the Lamashtu-worshiping goblins at level 3 or 4. And I don't remember anything notable about them to identify which person it is.

Spell wise, the quantity of Ghouls at the 4-5 range makes Cure Moderate worth having, and there's an encounter with incorporeal enemies with Strength drain that were probably low-level Undead before the Ghouls started popping up all over the place. My Brawler sat back, grabbed Weapon Focus (Dagger) and used a +1 Returning Dagger that I'm not entirely sure is part of the AP to hit them from range.

What I do know is part of the AP is a Flaming sword used by a three-armed Goblin. The sword is Medium sized and specifically does not correct for the user's size.

The reason I'm defining everything by level is because you've said it's a new DM who will probably follow the AP directly, meaning my experience with another by-the-book campaign is rather relevant and I can recall it better by the levels than by the events.

Very thankful for you is that the Undead are mostly non-Mindless, being Ghouls, so the Enchantments will work out fairly well. Unless the Undead traits are what gives the Enchantment immunity, rather than the tendency towards being Mindless. In which case, you have Cure spells.

People, we know the AP the person is going into, we can optimize around the scenario to make them better off. And the abundance of Undead at level 4 and 5 means that Cure spells will be a viable offense option for a notable chunk of the adventure.

I'm fairly sure the latter on parts of the AP have a large quantity of Aberrations and Evil Outsiders, given hints as to the overall plot I got from my limited experience, with the early parts being dominated by Goblins and Undead in my actual experience.

Edit: Stick to combat Enchantments, the DM will likely not be able to improvise around a Diplomancer of any noteworthy degree and you are on a set AP, so they aren't going in with the expectation of needing to improvise plot, which is what Diplomancers often make happen.

Also, saying the party has an Oradin doesn't give us any good information. What Mystery do they have? What Curse do they have? What's their plan for Revelations? Are they doing the Life Link setup, or doing a different, more combat-oriented thing? Because if they aren't following the Life Mystery Oradin stereotype, then you need to stick to being ready to heal.

[Arbane]

Very thankful for you is that the Undead are mostly non-Mindless, being Ghouls, so the Enchantments will work out fairly well. Unless the Undead traits are what gives the Enchantment immunity, rather than the tendency towards being Mindless. In which case, you have Cure spells.


Unfortunately, undead are always immune to mind-affecting abilities. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types/#TOC-Undead) (I once played a Witch who got hosed by that, but nowhere nearly as badly as the enchantment-focused sorcerer who was briefly in the group.) And Cure spells generally aren't as efficient against undead as beating them with sticks. (Or the Oradin's channelling)

As fro the Fox Tails, if it's just a flavor thing, why not just ask the GM if you can grow a new tail every time you get a new spell level? (ISTR a Kitsune Sorcerer who got to do that.)

[Psyren]

You can drop Zone of Truth from your plans up to level 5, a spell known is not cheap enough for that.*snippage*

If he's about to play the module, maybe spoiler some of the plot turns...

"You'll fight undead around this level" is fine, but "you'll question an NPC who turns out to be X," less so.


Unfortunately, undead are always immune to mind-affecting abilities. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types/#TOC-Undead) (I once played a Witch who got hosed by that, but nowhere nearly as badly as the enchantment-focused sorcerer who was briefly in the group.) And Cure spells generally aren't as efficient against undead as beating them with sticks. (Or the Oradin's channelling)

As noted, Threnodic rods (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/metamagic-rods/metamagic-rod-threnodic/) deal with that - the only issue is they won't help his tail SLAs. But, that could be a good tip for your witch and beguiling sorc in the future.

[Morphic tide]

If he's about to play the module, maybe spoiler some of the plot turns...

"You'll fight undead around this level" is fine, but "you'll question an NPC who turns out to be X," less so.

The questioning is a thing there's a chance to do. The actual situation is simply running into an NPC who later shows back up helping the Goblins. And that's all I remember.

[Florian]

@Morphic tide:

Learn2Spoiler. Questions about builds for a particular AP tend to come up regularly, so you learn to softly steer people towards/away from certain choices. See why we´ve mentioned threnodic spell and pushed Zone of Truth for scroll use?

@Foxy Bushy Tail:

This thing is only useful when you can get it at an accelerated rate to get at Dominate Person ASAP, roughly the same time a Wiz gets it.

[Psyren]

This thing is only useful when you can get it at an accelerated rate to get at Dominate Person ASAP, roughly the same time a Wiz gets it.

It might be more fair to compare it to Silent Still Dominate Person, since it's an SLA.

[Florian]

It might be more fair to compare it to Silent Still Dominate Person, since it's an SLA.

Would be a giant surprise, yeah.

[Unbalanced]

I believe the Oradin is planning to be a fairly optimised healer, but I'm not 100% sure.

And I believe the Sorcerer is planning to be a blaster/face of the party.

I plan on maxing acrobatics, stealth, and knowledges (religion, planes, arcana).

I'd never heard of Threnodic Spell, so thanks for that heads up.

Thanks for the help everyone :)