"Space" stat conflicts with description

[Atarax]

I've been noticing that some monster descriptions make them sound massive, but the size shown in the "space" stat has them much smaller. With most creatures, I've been able to resolve the difference by how they carry themselves vs how big they CAN get. Like a giant snake being 30 feet long but coiled up into a 10 x 10 area. Now, I come across some kind of extradimensional whale that's described as 60 ft long. The space stat says it's 20 ft. Which is it?

Apologies if this has been asked a dozen times already.

[Kayblis]

Usually, "space" is defined as a mechanical simplification. You can say a monster occupies its "space" when in combat pose, so a snake would be all twisted and compressed so it can attack with its 10ft reach. A snake can lash out like a spring, but it needs to coil up to do that. It also means most monsters, specially humanoids, are taller than they're wide, and that's represented by the different reaches a creature can have if it's either "Large(tall)" or "Large(wide)".

EDIT: Extradimensional stuff is full on drugs. It can be whatever it wants to be. Don't think too hard about beings that exist in dimensions with unknown physical laws.

[weckar]

Unfortunately, most monster entries don't bother indicating the height or length separately, or even whether the 4 square'd they'd take up are... well.. any other Tetris shape than square.

[Ashtagon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/whale.htm

Even normal whales have this problem:


Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.

The statistics here describe a plankton-feeding whale between 30 and 60 feet long

Real-world whales aren't noted for curling up on themselves, and they sure aren't extra-dimensional.


Unfortunately, most monster entries don't bother indicating the height or length separately, or even whether the 4 square'd they'd take up are... well.. any other Tetris shape than square.

3.5e makes it clear that all monster space entries are square blocks. That was one of the things they changed from 3.0e, which had some creature of Large or bigger size occupy rectangles instead of squares.

[weckar]

It certainly is clear, but in some cases (crocodiles, even horses) rather silly.

[Atarax]

Well, damn. I was hoping I had overlooked something. Apparently, by rule, I'm going to describe a massive creature to the PCs, then put a disappointingly smaller piece on the board.

Does this bother anyone else? How do you handle this? Do 4e or 5e fix this?

[Inevitability]

Well, damn. I was hoping I had overlooked something. Apparently, by rule, I'm going to describe a massive creature to the PCs, then put a disappointingly smaller piece on the board.

Does this bother anyone else? How do you handle this? Do 4e or 5e fix this?

I'm not really bothered by it, but then again I run fights theatre of the mind-style.

4e fixes this... somewhat. Singular monsters are still 20x20 feet at most, but a few rare monsters have individual body parts statted that help give the impression of a single bigger creature.

5e fixes this in the simplest way possible, by defining gargantuan (the biggest size category in that edition) creatures as having a space of '20 by 20 ft. or larger'.

[Fizban]

Tall creatures are often taller than their space. Winged creatures have wingspans well in excess of their space. Clearly whales have tales that stick out of their space. Reach goes way up as limbs are long enough to strike out multiple spaces (whales also have reach). Combat space is combat space, it just means that people can actually get up in the creature's grill a a bit before having movement blocked. A medium creature controls a space by moving around, while a giant creature has plenty of space around it that can be invaded.

I'm fairly certain I remember the bigger DnD Minis brand minis (dragons) having great big wingspans that overshadow things outside their combat space base, but other minis might not do that. If you have the option of altering things, you could get minis (or nicknacks) that match the creature's vital statistics and them put them on bases that match the combat statistics.

[weckar]

Tall creatures are often taller than their space. Winged creatures have wingspans well in excess of their space. Clearly whales have tales that stick out of their space. Reach goes way up as limbs are long enough to strike out multiple spaces (whales also have reach). Combat space is combat space, it just means that people can actually get up in the creature's grill a a bit before having movement blocked. A medium creature controls a space by moving around, while a giant creature has plenty of space around it that can be invaded.

I'm fairly certain I remember the bigger DnD Minis brand minis (dragons) having great big wingspans that overshadow things outside their combat space base, but other minis might not do that. If you have the option of altering things, you could get minis (or nicknacks) that match the creature's vital statistics and them put them on bases that match the combat statistics.
So in other words: That's where the vital organs are.

[Florian]

Does this bother anyone else?

No me. It´s more important that the combat systems works and building battles around massive creatures without reducing their main spot on the battle map would hinder more than help.

[Khedrac]

One of the best for this is the Purple Worm.

The description is 5' wide by 80' long
The space is 20' - with a note that it goes into a coil to fight, but the official miniature is on a 15' base.
http://940ee6dce6677fa01d25-0f55c9129972ac85d6b1f4e703468e6b.r99.cf2.rackcdn.c om/products/pictures/143427.jpg

Hmm, anyone noticed how many of the larger miniatures do not fit in their cube for height reasons?

[weckar]

That's an edge case where badass miniature trumps game logic, though.

[Necroticplague]

Remember that, in addition to Size, creatures also have Reach that their body needs to stick out into. Since Size is where you target to do damage, I always assumed Reach represented outer parts of their body they could easily move out of the way of attacks, while Size represented a less mobile core that you can attack. that's why large creatures tend to have really poor touch AC: their body takes up the entirety of their Space, and then some, so it's hard to move it out of the way.

IIRC, for Dragons, that's explicitely the case (Size is the core of their body from shoulder to base of tail, their limbs stick out into their Reach), so I'm just extending it to other creatures.

[Remuko]

You can just use the 3.0 rules for space instead? I liked them idk why they changed it.

[Telok]

I've been noticing that some monster descriptions make them sound massive, but the size shown in the "space" stat has them much smaller.

Because people make stupid mistakes.

The pit fiend is 12 feet tall and weighs 800 pounds, about like a 6 foot tall guy weighing 100 lbs. The balor is 12 feet tall and weighs 4,500 pounds, about like a 6 foot tall guy weighing 560 lbs. Put the pictures beside each other and they both like like normally proportioned humans in monster suits. Monsters made of styrofoam have been D&D jokes for many a decade.

That a 45 foot long whale can't even fit in a 20x20 space because it doesn't fold up like that probably never even occurred to them. Dragon turtles have shells 15 to 25 feet across and a space of 15x15. It's just the usual D&D monster-writer screw up.

[Dragonexx]

There are expanded size categories homebrew rules you could draw inspiration from.

https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Expanded_Size_Categories_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)

[KillianHawkeye]

The space isn't counting the tail.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Do you have any idea the number of cat-girls you have killed here today?

[Allanimal]

Do you have any idea the number of cat-girls you have killed here today?

No, but if you tell me how many 5' cubes I would neeed to fit all of their bodies, I could tell you...

[PaucaTerrorem]

Well played, sir.

[bekeleven]

3.5e makes it clear that all monster space entries are square blocks. That was one of the things they changed from 3.0e, which had some creature of Large or bigger size occupy rectangles instead of squares.Where is this made clear?

And, if it's the case, how does one resolve an un-updated 3.0 statblock with 5x10 space?

[hamishspence]

I think the MM section of the Accessory Booklet:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a

specified that all "Faces" have now been changed to "Spaces" - and what the default Spaces are. The SRD also gives standard "Spaces" for each monster size.

So, by default, a Large 5x10 monster becomes 10x10 unless there's a very good reason to think otherwise.

Note that the Accessory Booklet gives pretty small sizes for certain epic monsters - even the biggest Colossal monsters generally don't exceed 50 ft Space (30 ft is the standard - a few Epic monsters get up to 50 ft.)

[KillianHawkeye]

Where is this made clear?

Did you look in the Monster Manual?

Space/Reach
This line describes how much space the creature takes up on the battle grid and thereby needs to fight effectively, as well as how close it has to be to threaten an opponent. The number before the slash is the creature's space, or how many feat one side of the creature occupies (refer to the Dungeon Master's Guide for additional details). For example, a creature with a space of 15 feet occupies a 3-square-by-3-square space on the battle grid.

The DMG elaborates thusly:

Space: Space is the width of the square a creature needs to fight without penalties (see Squeezing Through, below). This width determines how many creatures can fight side by side in a 10-foot-wide corridor, and how many opponents can attack a creature at the same time. A creature's space does not have a front, back, left, or right side, because combatants are constantly moving and turning in battle. Unless a creature is immobile, it effectively doesn't have a front or a left side--at least not one you can locate on the tabletop.

Did you see the word "square" in the first sentence?

Additionally, there are template diagrams on pages 308-310 for the space/reach of every size of creature from Medium to Colossal and they're all perfectly square areas.


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And, if it's the case, how does one resolve an un-updated 3.0 statblock with 5x10 space?

They would be considered Large (long)* and have a 10-foot square space with only a 5-foot natural reach, just like a horse has. Horses are the prime example of a creature that used to have a 5'x10' space before the 3.5 update standardized fighting spaces.

*Note: Size categories bigger than Medium have both a "long" version (for quadrupeds and similar creatures) and a "tall" version (for humanoid-shaped creatures and others who generally stand upright). This distinction effects the creature's natural reach, but not their space. The space of a Large creature is 10 feet square regardless if they're a horse or an ogre. The tall and long versions are all included in the space/reach diagrams in the back of the DMG (mentioned above).