D&D 3.5 Alter Self Spell

[RangerRegis]

I read piles of text on the forums, but so far people can agree on little so I would like to keep it simple, I am an elf bard, please suggest me 1 creature of a burrow, fly, swim, and combat oriented type that you think is best and if you wish you can include your personal favorite. (Please follow the rules of the spell)

So for example:

Combat - xxx
Fly - xxx
Swim - xxx
Burrow - xxx
My personal favorite - xxx


Thank you very much in advance :)

[Crake]

Combat I'd say troglodyte for +6 natural armor, fly is avariel (forgotten realms winged elves) if they're in your setting, otherwise I'm not sure of any humanoids with a fly speed. Note that raptorans don't actually have a flight speed, or even a glide speed, they have an Ex special quality called "Flight" which you do not get from alter self. Swim is easily merfolk, if you can argue that their ability to breathe underwater is a "natural ability" (which I personally as a DM allow, but ymmv, considering that alter self does not actually give you the Aquatic subtype). Burrow I can't say I'm aware of any humanoids that have a burrow speed.

I can't say I really have a personal favourite for the spell, it's more useful for it's versatility, but I'd say the above forms are the favourites for those particular situations.

[flappeercraft]

For combat my personal favorite that you can use as a humanoid is a Crucian (Sandstorm) due to their +8 NA

[Crake]

For combat my personal favorite that you can use as a humanoid is a Crucian (Sandstorm) due to their +8 NA

Ah, nice find, though they do have 20ft movement, which is something of a penalty for that. (Edit: Apparently the Phaerlock from the forgotten realms supplement underdark is practically identical to a troglodyte, except it has +7 NA instead of +6, so I guess that's my new favourite combat form :smalltongue:)

I did a bit of digging and found a single humanoid with a burrow speed of 20ft, but also a land speed of 50ft, and a natural armor bonus of +2, as well as a secondary bite attack, the Asabi from monsters of faerun, it's the only humanoid I could find with a burrow speed.

[weckar]

Aventi are cool. And dragonborn can fly, right? And they're still humanoid?

[RangerRegis]

Thanks so much for the help guys :) Is dragonborn okay? I dont think they are humanoid? Whats their HD?

[Dagroth]

Thanks so much for the help guys :) Is dragonborn okay? I dont think they are humanoid? Whats their HD?

If the original being was humanoid, the converted being is Humanoid (Dragonblooded).

[RangerRegis]

If the original being was humanoid, the converted being is Humanoid (Dragonblooded).

Can you give me an example? And can they fly?

[Tiri]

For combat my personal favorite that you can use as a humanoid is a Crucian (Sandstorm) due to their +8 NA

Ah, nice find, though they do have 20ft movement, which is something of a penalty for that. (Edit: Apparently the Phaerlock from the forgotten realms supplement underdark is practically identical to a troglodyte, except it has +7 NA instead of +6, so I guess that's my new favourite combat form :smalltongue:)

I see that you are both unaware of the Tren (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=4). Not only does it have both +8 NA and 30ft speed, you also get Multiattack as a bonus feat and an larger-than-normal bite.

It's my favorite combat form.

[RangerRegis]

bumping the thread

[ben-zayb]

Not exactly the most combat-viable, but the Varag is quite nice with a 60ft land speed combined with Run and Spring Attack as bonus feats.

[Zombimode]

Thanks so much for the help guys :) Is dragonborn okay? I dont think they are humanoid? Whats their HD?

I dont think you can Alter Self into a Dragonborn. It's not an actual race, instead it is a pseudo-template. You can't Alter Self into templated creatures.


My favorites are Skum for Swim Speed, Dustblight for ground combat (good NA and natural attacks), and the Snowcloak for flying.

...what? Being a Daelkyr-Halfblood has it's Advantages :smalltongue:

[Dagroth]

Can you give me an example? And can they fly?

Dragonborn are (fortunately) a Race and not a Template... but they act like a Template, in that you apply certain modifications to a base Race.

Oddly enough, there appears to be no restriction on what race you can start as... as long as you have an Int of at least 3. So, technically, a Blink Dog can become a Dragonborn!

Once they go through the ritual, one of the Racial Traits they gain is this:
Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

However, under the mechanics section, they gain this:
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race.

Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses, save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth.

Thus, a Dwarf Dragonborn would lose their save bonuses, fighting bonuses against giants, etc.

You also keep your original Level Adjust... which is crazy, since you loose your racial spell-like abilities!

And yes, a Dragonborn with the Wings Aspect can fly... if they're at least 6 HD/Level.

[Zombimode]

Dragonborn are (fortunately) a Race and not a Template... but they act like a Template, in that you apply certain modifications to a base Race.

Thats why I said it is a pseudo-template. The same reason for why you can't alter self into a templated creature apply to Dragonborn as well: in effect you would get a Null Pointer Exception (that is, the base race that would be referenced by the spell is not initialized). Neither dragonborn nor templates provide enough informationg for an Alter Self effect.

[RangerRegis]

Dragonborn are (fortunately) a Race and not a Template... but they act like a Template, in that you apply certain modifications to a base Race.

Oddly enough, there appears to be no restriction on what race you can start as... as long as you have an Int of at least 3. So, technically, a Blink Dog can become a Dragonborn!

Once they go through the ritual, one of the Racial Traits they gain is this:
Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

However, under the mechanics section, they gain this:
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race.

Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses, save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth.

Thus, a Dwarf Dragonborn would lose their save bonuses, fighting bonuses against giants, etc.

You also keep your original Level Adjust... which is crazy, since you loose your racial spell-like abilities!

And yes, a Dragonborn with the Wings Aspect can fly... if they're at least 6 HD/Level.


But can I turn myself into something that looks like a Dragonborn? So that I only look like it cosmetically with perhaps only functional wings or something?

[Esprit15]

On the topic of raptorians, it looks like they should be able to fly from alter self:

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement) ... You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

[Dagroth]

But can I turn myself into something that looks like a Dragonborn? So that I only look like it cosmetically with perhaps only functional wings or something?

It's a grey area. The poster above is correct that Alter Self won't let you become a templated creature... but RAW says Dragonborn are a race, and RAW says Alter Self will let you become a race. The way Dragonborn is written, it's clearly a template... but it's also specifically called out as being a race.


On the topic of raptorians, it looks like they should be able to fly from alter self:

By RAI, you would be correct... by RAW, Raptorians are the only race (that I know of) that list Flight as an EX ability rather than a movement mode... and Alter Self doesn't give you a race's EX abilities.

[Segev]

Does the Dragonborn actually require information from the "base race" to construct?

[Crake]

By RAI, you would be correct... by RAW, Raptorians are the only race (that I know of) that list Flight as an EX ability rather than a movement mode... and Alter Self doesn't give you a race's EX abilities.

I disagree that RAI it would work. Raptorans may have wings, but they lack a fly speed on their own. Their flight ability grants them a flight speed.... at a high enough level, but the fact that raptorans cannot fly, even as grown adults, shows that their flight is not an innate thing, it's something that needs to be worked at to learn, so it makes sense that someone just randomly transforming into one wouldn't know how to fly properly.

[Dagroth]

Does the Dragonborn actually require information from the "base race" to construct?

According to the description of the race, yes they do.


I disagree that RAI it would work. Raptorans may have wings, but they lack a fly speed on their own. Their flight ability grants them a flight speed.... at a high enough level, but the fact that raptorans cannot fly, even as grown adults, shows that their flight is not an innate thing, it's something that needs to be worked at to learn, so it makes sense that someone just randomly transforming into one wouldn't know how to fly properly.

This is a good point... but someone just randomly transforming into a bird wouldn't know how to fly properly either. Birds born & raised in captivity, without being show any examples of how to fly, don't know how to fly and even when they learn are clumsy fliers at best.

[Yklikt]

This is a good point... but someone just randomly transforming into a bird wouldn't know how to fly properly either.

Unless you are in D&D. Then you do.

[rrwoods]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2811.0

Great resource for all your Alter Self humanoid needs.

[Esprit15]

It's a grey area. The poster above is correct that Alter Self won't let you become a templated creature... but RAW says Dragonborn are a race, and RAW says Alter Self will let you become a race. The way Dragonborn is written, it's clearly a template... but it's also specifically called out as being a race.



By RAI, you would be correct... by RAW, Raptorians are the only race (that I know of) that list Flight as an EX ability rather than a movement mode... and Alter Self doesn't give you a race's EX abilities.

My point is that it calls out extraordinary abilities not listed above. Winged flight is listed above.

[John Longarrow]

First and foremost check with your DM for what is on the table... If they don't have winged elves in their game it's really hard for you to turn into one.

[Crake]

First and foremost check with your DM for what is on the table... If they don't have winged elves in their game it's really hard for you to turn into one.

Yup, I mentioned this when suggesting avariel, simply because if alter self is capable of giving you a flight speed, it becomes a 10 minute/level personal version of a 3rd level spell that lasts 1 minute/level (the fly spell). At least when turning into a merfolk and being able to (arguably) breathe underwater, it's a personal, 10 minute/level version of a 3rd level spell that's a) normally castable on others and b) lasts 1 hour/level (water breathing)

[RangerRegis]

It's a grey area. The poster above is correct that Alter Self won't let you become a templated creature... but RAW says Dragonborn are a race, and RAW says Alter Self will let you become a race. The way Dragonborn is written, it's clearly a template... but it's also specifically called out as being a race.



By RAI, you would be correct... by RAW, Raptorians are the only race (that I know of) that list Flight as an EX ability rather than a movement mode... and Alter Self doesn't give you a race's EX abilities.

Thanks for the input, will look into it more with my DM, the way I saw alter self is that it basically lets you change your appearance and body, so technically I could alter form myself into a troglodyte with wings no?

[John Longarrow]

Thanks for the input, will look into it more with my DM, the way I saw alter self is that it basically lets you change your appearance and body, so technically I could alter form myself into a troglodyte with wings no?

Only if Troglodytes normally have wings in your DMs game.

[RangerRegis]

Only if Troglodytes normally have wings in your DMs game.

Troglodytes never have wings ( as far as I know )

[Rerednaw]

My go to forms:
Flight: Avariel
Combat: Tren. Troglodyte on steroids.

That's pretty much the two forms I use 90% of the time.