Is Miko's build viable?

[waffletaco]

Is it a good build? What would improve it? I like it but I was thinking about a ranger/pally for more feats since it won't be spent on taking two-weapon fighting. Feedback please.

[Alfryd]

If you're playing a game with generous point buys, it could probably work out. Otherwise there are distinct problems. The monk levels + divine grace combo is perfectly viable and indeed gosh-darned clever, but since that requires light armour and paladins function as tanks, you'll need decent Dex to boost AC, decent Con, and some Str. Naturally, you'll need some Wis, so that leaves Int as your dump stat.
(Miko is NOT stupid. At least, not Int-wise. That, and Dex, is why high point buy is required in her case.)
Assuming you're allowed 18/16/14/12/10/8 to arrange as desired, I'd go with
Str 14, Cha 16, Dex 18, Wis 10, Con 12 and Int 8.
With a 'standard' 25-point-buy, oh, I suppose Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 10 and Cha 14.
So pump Wis as you gain levels and use stat-boosting items.

[Kioran]

As far as I can judge from the Comics, the Characters in OoTSverse have different ("rolled") stats, worth different Point buys. From their performance in the story, I´d say for example that Roy has better stats than Elan or Vaarsuvius(who is only stunningly effective because s/he is a highly focused Wizard).

So no, normally it´s a bad idea. Monk can barely be played with 28 Point buy as is, adding Charisma as additional necessary stat would be the death of you. But I believe Miko has excellent stats (being at least one of the 3 most high-powered characters in the strip), so it works out. She has awesome synergies for utility and defense (though I´d like to know if she´s armored - i think it would be a mistake, since she loses tons of speed and has little AC to gain, since she also looses Monk-AC).
As stated above, with generous Stat-arrays in a core-only game, this combination makes lots of sense.

[brant167]

It actually is quite viable but you have to play the build to your strengths. I rolled really well the last game I played in, so I made a vow of poverty/peace monk/paladin. Ascetic Knight from complete adventure is a must for a Monk/Paladin. However the character wasn't a damage dealer, the character focused on sundering weapons/armor (yes you can cleave on a sunder.) Then making them submit. We made it too level 21 and I went monk 16/Paladin 4. It wasn't the most powerful character but it was a lot of fun to play.

[Alfryd]

As far as I can judge from the Comics, the Characters in OoTSverse have different ("rolled") stats, worth different Point buys.
It seems likely Roy has a point buy of at least 35, and Haley also has some very respectable stats. I recall detailing what a 35-point-buy for each character would look like, but I seem to have misplaced it... Oh well.
Miko's combo would be better except that monks lose their Wis/level bonus to AC when they wear any armour whatsoever. (Personally, I'd be inclined to allow them light armour via a House Rule, which would redress things significantly. For monks in general, actually.)

[lord_khaine]

yeah, i also think its a bit of a mistake not letting monks have light armor after they gave that ability to swordsages.

as for viability, yeah its a good defensive build, but it put some crazy demands on your ability scores.

[Wolfwood2]

So no, normally it´s a bad idea. Monk can barely be played with 28 Point buy as is, adding Charisma as additional necessary stat would be the death of you. But I believe Miko has excellent stats (being at least one of the 3 most high-powered characters in the strip), so it works out. She has awesome synergies for utility and defense (though I´d like to know if she´s armored - i think it would be a mistake, since she loses tons of speed and has little AC to gain, since she also looses Monk-AC).

If Miko only has a couple of levels of monk, light armor isn't that bad. She loses flurry of blows, but her unarmed strike, two monk bonus feats, and evasion all work fine. Not to mention +3 to all saves. With only two monk levels, the AC boost from wearing a chain shirt is almost certainly greater than her wisdom bonus.

Really it's best to think of Miko as a paladin who has traded in a couple of levels of paladin power progression, some hitpoints, and -1 BAB in return for Evasion, a saving throw boost, and three bonus feats (monk's unarmed strike, Stunning Fist, and either Deflect Arrows or Combat Reflexes).

Not too bad a deal.

EDIT: Really she has the regular paladin MAD problem with an additional requirement for a decent dexterity.

[Alyais]

If you're playing a game with generous point buys, it could probably work out. Otherwise there are distinct problems. The monk levels + divine grace combo is perfectly viable and indeed gosh-darned clever, but since that requires light armour and paladins function as tanks, you'll need decent Dex to boost AC, decent Con, and some Str. Naturally, you'll need some Wis, so that leaves Int as your dump stat.
(Miko is NOT stupid. At least, not Int-wise. That, and Dex, is why high point buy is required in her case.)
Assuming you're allowed 18/16/14/12/10/8 to arrange as desired, I'd go with
Str 14, Cha 16, Dex 18, Wis 10, Con 12 and Int 8.
With a 'standard' 25-point-buy, oh, I suppose Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 10 and Cha 14.
So pump Wis as you gain levels and use stat-boosting items.

Don't forget, Miko gets hit a lot and her lay on hands didn't do much. I'm assuming she has a low wisdom (monk = wisdom ac) and at least enough dex to get whirlwind attack.

[Alfryd]

As mentioned, monks loose AC bonus when wearing armour. Combat analysis indicates Miko can lay on hands for upwards of 40 and perhaps as much as 75 points of damage. She may have a cha-boosting item tucked away somewhere, it seems the sensible thing for her to have.

[Chronos]

The Giant has described her on the board as casting Cure Light Wounds, which gives her a Wisdom of at least 11, but she notably hasn't cast any higher-level spells, even when they would have come in really handy (Heal Mount had to have been a better option than guzzling all those healing potions, for instance), so she probably does not have a 13 Wis. So her monk AC bonus would be at most 1, which means she might as well wear light armor (even leather would be an improvement).

She may have a cha-boosting item tucked away somewhere, it seems the sensible thing for her to have.That would be sensible, but the default Charisma-boosting item is a cloak, and her's is apparently not magical: She doesn't hesitate to tear a strip off of it for use in her improvised Molotov, and she then gets a new one out of Windstriker's packs to replace it. She could, of course, still have some other homebrewed item to boost Charisma, but I think the simpler explanation is that her Cha is just naturally pretty high (a 16 Cha and 13 paladin levels would be enough to account for 39 points of Lay On Hands).

[KSA]

Well, I always use the "roll 4d6 and discard the lowest roll" method. That usually provides a pretty solid mix of scores, but I once rolled up a character with scores of 18, 16, 15, 17, 18, 17. Random dice rolls could explain most any ability score, even Miko's really tough requirements as a monk/paladin.

[chibibar]

starting from level 1?? it might be hard, it all depends on what kind of GM you have. Usually (at least lately) we usually start at level 3. We use 4d6 discard lowest and "special circumstances"

Since Miko is a special built type (with many restriction and min requirement on stats) GM might change the rule a bit and give all stats base 10 with point by or something custom.

You CAN go outside the system and make your own unless the owner of Miko's character is VERY lucky on the roll (it is possible) or special character template.

[lokycat]

I was in a Eberron campaign ones and a player made a human that was raised by animals in Xendric(Tarzan), so naturally he was a monk.

Throw roll play at about 11th Lv we meet up with a cleric/paladin order protecting the Eldeen Reaches from an army in the Demon Wastes. They were there to protect nature and the next thing we know he is taking paladin as a class, in the end of the campaign he was 12monk/6 pally and he started the campaign at 3erd Lv and wanting to go strait monk.

[Kioran]

The Giant has described her on the board as casting Cure Light Wounds, which gives her a Wisdom of at least 11, but she notably hasn't cast any higher-level spells, even when they would have come in really handy (Heal Mount had to have been a better option than guzzling all those healing potions, for instance), so she probably does not have a 13 Wis. So her monk AC bonus would be at most 1, which means she might as well wear light armor (even leather would be an improvement).
That would be sensible, but the default Charisma-boosting item is a cloak, and her's is apparently not magical: She doesn't hesitate to tear a strip off of it for use in her improvised Molotov, and she then gets a new one out of Windstriker's packs to replace it. She could, of course, still have some other homebrewed item to boost Charisma, but I think the simpler explanation is that her Cha is just naturally pretty high (a 16 Cha and 13 paladin levels would be enough to account for 39 points of Lay On Hands).

Since she could royally lay the smack down on some Hobgoblins post-fall, it stands to reason to expect a higher Monk-level - Would be consistent with her abiltiy to stun-kick even Roy, who should have a good Fort save. That also suggests some Wisdom as well, but since she can smite thrice per day I´d say Monk 6/Pal 10. She doesn´t have access to thirs level spells, but puts out nice damage, has awesome saves and, without armor, decent AC and good speed (by Core standards).
Now if she wears armor (which drawings of her would suggest), I´d say she screws herself out of a lot of advantages from her Monk levels, namely insane mobility, but that wouldn´t be atypical for Characters in the OoTSverse.

Still, that build has lots of merits when fighting weaker opponents, since your saving throws protect you from most magic attacks and your AC is still bound to be okay. Two weapon Fighting + Improved unarmed strike means lots of attacks, whatever your weapons are. However, such a build would be considerably weaker against something that can actually hit it (Roy with his +5 weapon), since it(as well as Miko) suffers from smaller HD and probably limited con. If I were to stat out Miko, baseline, based on my assumptions, it would look something like this (give or take a few points):

Monk 6/Pala 10
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 18

I´m aware these are awesome, but I think consistent with Miko´s performance. Additionally, this would give her 40 points of lay on hands, about 90 HP, explaining her "fragility" in comparison to other Fighter types, this builds greatest weakness.

[Arameus]

I don't think Miko has very high Wisdom. In fact, she seems to be rather foolish. Remember how the Order were talking about her and Roy, suggestively (more than suggestively, they were using very obvious euphemisms), right in front of her, she had no idea what they were talking about? On the other hand, rather than implying low Wisdom, it could mean she is simply wholly unacquainted with the entire concept of physical love. Which, considering her character, is not too improbable.

[malakim2099]

Well, a Standard Point Buy makes about anything that isn't a one-attribute character improbable at best. But if you're rolling characters, or have a very high point buy? You could do a monk/paladin pretty easily. Complete Adventurer even has a feat for you (Ascetic Knight, I think). :)

[Yeril]

I personaly imagine miko being about the monk 2 level, giving her Evasion, 2 extra stun attempts a few bonus feats such as improved unarmed attack and stunning fist, but not so many "unarmored only" abilities, when you only get
+2 ac for being unarmoured you might aswell wear armour.

Plus it was said she trained as a monk before she got chosen as a paladin, but I read (somewhere) that she was chosen as a paladin at about age 13, so she can't of been very high in the monk levels.

I would rate mikos stats at about..

Str 14, Dex 18, Con10, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 22

Shes a melee fighter type so a okay strength is needed

Number of attacks suggests Improved Two weapon fighting, possibly greater

No real evidence of a high constitution, everyone needs a dump stat

She seems to be fairly bright but no genius

shes a monk, so she probaly has some wisdom, she seems to be preety wise in her actions most of the time (everyone rolls a natural 1 eventualy) but she does ask if she and belkar should compare wisdom modifiers, meaning theres a possibility that belkar could of had a higher wisdom.

Charisma, Well first of all her lay on hands seems to be very effective, removing all visible wounds after taking a assumed 75 damage from a spell, Plus for roy to fall head over heels at sight shes gotta be a looker :smallwink:

Her saves have always been shown as very high so a +6 charisma bonus to all saves would make a noticible difference in battle.

[Iranon]

She seemed built for survivability: Excellent saving throws, possibly superior mobility (access to tumble helps). For someone usually adventuring on her own, this seems to make a lot of sense - she can disengage from fights that are beyond her ability.
Sacrificing some staying power isn't much of a problem when nobody expects her to take hits for them.

[Demented]

shes a monk, so she probaly has some wisdom, she seems to be preety wise in her actions most of the time (everyone rolls a natural 1 eventualy) but she does ask if she and belkar should compare wisdom modifiers, meaning theres a possibility that belkar could of had a higher wisdom.

Hah!
She thought to compare wisdom modifiers against a tracker who lacks the wisdom to have ranks in survival. That doesn't speak well of her own wisdom, but certainly speaks worse of Belkar's.

[David Argall]

Monk 6/Pala 10
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 18


That's an 58 point build! Anything is viable with that sort of base.

Can we work with something a player is more likely to get, such as a 28 point build?
Maybe...
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14

Now as our monk-Paladin, how does she look vs alternate classes?

[Tengu]

That's an 58 point build! Anything is viable with that sort of base.

Can we work with something a player is more likely to get, such as a 28 point build?
Maybe...
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14

Now as our monk-Paladin, how does she look vs alternate classes?

Miko's not a PC.

I personally think her stats are somewhere along these lines:

Str: At least 14, probably more.
Dex: At least 16, needed for dual-wielding, probably much more.
Con: ~12? Most characters in OotS don't seem to have high Con, which is a bit surprising.
Int: 10, maybe a bit higher, with such MAD you need to have a dump stat and unless you're going for a trip build, you don't need it badly for a melee character anyway.
Wis: ~14, paladins do not need it to have higher than that.
Cha: at least 16, probably much more.

She probably has only 2 levels in monk, rest in paladin. I think that she uses the same armor as most Sapphire Guard paladins, full-plate. Feats go into two-weapon fighting, power attack, et cetera.

Overall, this build relies heavily on stats to be effective, especially since two-weapon fighting is not an effective way of combat (she's do better just wielding her katana in two hands).

[Ithekro]

Well she has some kind of armor at least since Haley thinks the armor makes Miko's hips look fat. Of course she was insulting Miko while she couldn't speak normally, but it is something still.

[The_Alec]

I have been experimenting with a Miko build while playing Neverwinter Nights 2 and I think the most likely stat distribution using the point buy system would be:
Str 14, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16

This would more closely match the intelligence and abilities that Miko has shown in the comic and by putting her points into dexterity as she leveled up she would still meet the requirements for the two weapon fighting feats.

As far as the class build is concerned it looks like she is using the monk levels primarily for a defensive boost. Therefore she probably has 3 levels of monk to get the evasion feat combined with +3 to her saves and an additional +2 to resisting mind affecting spells.

Combat wise she is probably combining the extra attacks from dual wielding with the Divine Might feat to boost her overall damage. When combined with an Eagles Grace spell she would be adding +5 damage to each of her attacks in a round.

[David Argall]

Miko's not a PC.


The stats of PC and NPC should be closely related. The NPC is to challenge [but only challenge] the PC, and this means more or less the same stats for both.

[sum1won]

It seems to me that if judging by Miko's character's actions, she has a low charisma, and/or wisdom, due to her interactions with others and failure to reevaluate her actions.

[Ithekro]

I'm going to assume "Comeliness" was tossed out of the rules a long time ago. Or was that something special for the "Oriental Adventures"? If so that could explain a low Charisma, but why Roy would be taken with Miko on sight.

Edit: Note that I only have the old Basic D&D box set and the AD&D Oriental Adventures as my entire D&D library. I was more into WEG Star Wars at the time.

[lokycat]

but why Roy would be taken with Miko on sight.
All he saw was a strong fighting woman that could kick his ass, hell that turns ME on.:smallbiggrin:

[sum1won]

I'm going to assume "Comeliness" was tossed out of the rules a long time ago. Or was that something special for the "Oriental Adventures"? If so that could explain a low Charisma, but why Roy would be taken with Miko on sight.

Edit: Note that I only have the old Basic D&D box set and the AD&D Oriental Adventures as my entire D&D library. I was more into WEG Star Wars at the time.Well, Elan's charisma doesn't seem to work on Roy, but works on everyone else, regardless of his flaws. At any rate, from what I understood of charisma, it governs your interactions with other characters, and that doesn't have to be expressed through one's looks entirely. Miko certainly doesn't have any of the other aspects of a high-charisma character.

[Kioran]

The stats of PC and NPC should be closely related. The NPC is to challenge [but only challenge] the PC, and this means more or less the same stats for both.

But in OoTS they haven´t - I think it´s pretty much a given that Roy has better Stats than Elan, for example. He has good strength, good Con, average Dex, above average Mental stats (through and thorugh. The ginat even confirmed the enhanced mental stats, see mindf....... episode).
Elan on the other hand has average physical stats, maybe good Dex, has very low Int, some wise, but good Cha. If I were to stat them out, baseline, with increases but without items, like I did for Miko:

Roy: Str 18, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 12
Elan: Str 11, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 19

Apart from awesome Charisma, Elan is simply Inferior, and It shows in the comic. NPCs should use the same method of stat generation as the PCs - but since the OoTS is "rolled", it stands to reason that one NPC gets "lucky". Besides, that buttresses the point rich makes against the smite-machine - namely, that such a playstyle ruins even the best assets.

And 25 or 28 Point buy? You would have difficulty playing a Monk with these, or just a Pala. Try it with the stats you created. They are the most sensible thing you have, true, and such stats would do miracles for game balance(suddenly, heavy armor makes sense), but the monk at least isn´t really playable since he either has Damage, AC, HP or skills.
So he´s either decent out of combat but a total liability in combat, or he´s able to survive, but doesn´t contribute. Taking Pala levels is just spreading the butter even thinner. At that point, you have almost no advantage from any of your class features.
"Miko" builds become viable around PB 32-36.

[bluish_wolf]

The stats of PC and NPC should be closely related. The NPC is to challenge [but only challenge] the PC, and this means more or less the same stats for both.

It's possible to the unbalanced and still challenging. Especially considering Miko always fights alone. She has to be unbalanced just to be balanced. If that makes sense.

[Alfryd]

I think the simpler explanation is that her Cha is just naturally pretty high (a 16 Cha and 13 paladin levels would be enough to account for 39 points of Lay On Hands).
I dunno. Her saves are good enough (an she healed for an entire Harm spell,) that I would strongly suspect the homebrew item.


Since she could royally lay the smack down on some Hobgoblins post-fall, it stands to reason to expect a higher Monk-level - Would be consistent with her abiltiy to stun-kick even Roy...
You get half your non-monk levels as a bonus to Stunning Kick DC, there's nothing to stop Roy failing his Fort save. 1/2 HD hobgoblins will pose her no challenge regardless.
Monk 2/Paladin 14 seems the most likely build.

Now if she wears armor (which drawings of her would suggest), I´d say she screws herself out of a lot of advantages from her Monk levels...
Light armour denies you a Monk AC bonus, extra speed and flurry attacks, everything else works out just fine.


I don't think Miko has very high Wisdom.
Very high? Probably not, and the lack of 2nd/3rd-level spells is notable. But she has Wis of at least 11.

She seems to be fairly bright but no genius...
Miko is damned smart when she puts her mind to it. I'd peg her Int at 14+. But that's not neccesary for her build.

Dex: At least 16, needed for dual-wielding, probably much more.
17 is the minimum needed for ITWF, more than 18 is useless to her since she'll hit her armour's max Dex bonus.


It seems to me that if judging by Miko's character's actions, she has a low charisma, and/or wisdom, due to her interactions with others and failure to reevaluate her actions.

Miko certainly doesn't have any of the other aspects of a high-charisma character.
It is indeed quite baffling.

I'm going to assume "Comeliness" was tossed out of the rules a long time ago.
Charisma. Go Figure.


NPCs should use the same method of stat generation as the PCs - but since the OoTS is "rolled"...
Several Order members refer to 'dump stats', which would imply a point buy system of some form.
No amount of Point Buy will ever make it the least bit difficult to play an ineffective character.


A Point Buy of 35, which seems the standard, by level 16, will give you:

Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11 and Cha 16.

At level 16, the wealth-by-level guidelines will give Miko two +6 stat boosting items and one +4 stat boosting item, aside from weapons/armour. Put those in Str/Cha and Con, respectively, and you get Str 20, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 11 and Cha 22.
This is assuming her adventures or Sapphire Guard stipend allows her equipment appropriate to her level.

[Kioran]

You get half your non-monk levels as a bonus to Stunning Kick DC, there's nothing to stop Roy failing his Fort save. 1/2 HD hobgoblins will pose her no challenge regardless.
Monk 2/Paladin 14 seems the most likely build.
Light armour denies you a Monk AC bonus, extra speed and flurry attacks, everything else works out just fine.
Very high? Probably not, and the lack of 2nd/3rd-level spells is notable. But she has Wis of at least 11.

Roy failing his save is possible, yes, but Miko´s stunning attacks have, as far as I can discern, always worked. Unless she uses an unarmed strike(which she can do with knees, elbows and feet) every round, that means she has a high DC. And killing a HD 1 hobgoblin Warrior with a single attack means more damage than 1d8+2 HP. That points, at least for me, to a higher monk level. Incidentally, that would also cover poor paladin Spellcasting.
The advantages of going without armor scale with her stats and Monk levels - the better her stats and the higher her monk level, the more sense abandoning armor makes.


Several Order members refer to 'dump stats', which would imply a point buy system of some form.
No amount of Point Buy will ever make it the least bit difficult to play an ineffective character.

The 7 you rolled is also a dump stat. You´re bound to roll poorly sooner or later, and that roll needs to go somewhere. You dump a stat.......


A Point Buy of 35, which seems the standard, by level 16, will give you:

Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11 and Cha 16.

At level 16, the wealth-by-level guidelines will give Miko two +6 stat boosting items and one +4 stat boosting item, aside from weapons/armour. Put those in Str/Cha and Con, respectively, and you get Str 20, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 11 and Cha 22.
This is assuming her adventures or Sapphire Guard stipend allows her equipment appropriate to her level.

That´s 45 Point buy (6+16+4+6+3+10) by the way, and much up the vein I suggested :smallbiggrin:

[Alfryd]

And killing a HD 1 hobgoblin Warrior with a single attack means more damage than 1d8+2 HP.
There's nothing to stop her using Power Attack.

That´s 45 Point buy (6+16+4+6+3+10) by the way, and much up the vein I suggested...
8/8/8/8/8/8
+
6/10/4/6/3/6 = 35
=
14/16/12/14/11/14 at level 1.

By level 16, 4 extra points will be invested. I put 2 each in Dex and Cha.
If you dump Int to 8, you only need a Point buy of 29, which is quite reasonable.

[Kioran]

There's nothing to stop her using Power Attack.

8/8/8/8/8/8
+
6/10/4/6/3/6 = 35
=
14/16/12/14/11/14 at level 1.

By level 16, 4 extra points will be invested. I put 2 each in Dex and Cha.
If you dump Int to 8, you only need a Point buy of 29, which is quite reasonable.

But Miko didn´t, as far as I can tell, dump Int......Such a character is, by the way, still not that powerful. The beauty of that build is that it reaps tremendous benefits from high stats. It gets better with high rolled stats. We once had acharacter with rolled 18/18/18/17/16/15. He would have kicked all kinds of ass - as anything else than a Ninja. But i Digress......
Just let me say that I believe Miko´s monk levels to be higher than 2, even if that would make the most sense.......

[RobbyPants]

While the build idea is kind of interesting, I would think it could be better. After level 5 or 6, Paladin becomes a bit of a dead class. You get nothing special other than spells (4th level and lower), extra remove diseases, and extra smites. The build would probably improve by multiclassing out at that point, but I'm not exactly sure into what. A couple of Fighter levels could be good for some bonus feats (say, for the two weapon fighting tree). From what little I've seen of Tome of Battle, Crusader is a great Paladin-esqu type class.

Also, to keep climbing the two weapon fighting tree, you need a pretty good Dex (15 for TWF, 17 for Improved TWF, and 19 for Greater TWF).

[elliott20]

well, looking at the battle transcripts. I think she only gets one extra attack from her offhand, which suggests that she has only taken one TWF feat.

As a general class build though, paladin/monk really has only one big upside: they are hard as hell to actually kill. The combination of their high saves, possibility for good AC from different sources, high speed and lay on hands all means that she'll be that much harder to catch if situation got bad.

However, we must not forget up to this point she hasn't really fought anyone who was on her level. She fought Roy and was slowly losing the fight until she got her stunning kick in that stopped his attacks. (which, incidentally, feeds back into the whole TWF vs. THF discussion) Really, in many ways, Roy could be a much more effective damage output build.

But just as she's shown in the comic, she's a survivor. And she has tools to incapacitate or at least slow down every kind of enemy in some fashion. At least, enough to buy her a bit of time to get away if need be.

[Roderick_BR]

yeah, i also think its a bit of a mistake not letting monks have light armor after they gave that ability to swordsages.

as for viability, yeah its a good defensive build, but it put some crazy demands on your ability scores.
I agree on that, although people would start to abuse the use of mithrall armors. But then again, for the cost and movement restrictions, it is not too cheese.
But here's a question that has been bugging me: If you get the swordsage variant with unarmed progression, do you lose the ability to wear armor and retain your Wisdom bonus to CA? If not, that's a very unbalanced trade-off. Lose one feat, and gain 3: improved unarmed strike, superior unarmed damage, improved natural strike, being that you can still buy these last two as normal. And after all that you can use a feat to buy back use light armor, or multiclass into anything that gives armor. My SwordSage 1/ranger 11/tempest 5 build would be incredible strong, even with a simple 32 points buy.

[Chronos]

8/8/8/8/8/8
+
6/10/4/6/3/6 = 35
=
14/16/12/14/11/14 at level 1.In most point-buy systems, it costs more points to increase scores to higher values. An increase from 8 to 14 is one point each, but an increase from 14 to 15 or 15 to 16 costs two points, and 16 to 17 or 17 to 18 each costs three. This makes it a bit harder to do the mechanically appealing but unrealistic 18/18/18/8/8/8 optimization.

[Kioran]

I agree on that, although people would start to abuse the use of mithrall armors. But then again, for the cost and movement restrictions, it is not too cheese.
But here's a question that has been bugging me: If you get the swordsage variant with unarmed progression, do you lose the ability to wear armor and retain your Wisdom bonus to CA? If not, that's a very unbalanced trade-off. Lose one feat, and gain 3: improved unarmed strike, superior unarmed damage, improved natural strike, being that you can still buy these last two as normal. And after all that you can use a feat to buy back use light armor, or multiclass into anything that gives armor. My SwordSage 1/ranger 11/tempest 5 build would be incredible strong, even with a simple 32 points buy.

I don´t know the specifics, but I´d guess almost any ToB character would paint the walls with the remains of most characters in OoTS, so Swordsage is kind of a non-issue, at least in conjunction with the comic.
Apart from the obvious mechanical benefits, it also serves some fluff reasons - namely Samurai possesing some "martial Art" or "concentration" in excess of normal Western Warriors. The only way to do that, core, is using Monk levels, and I think Monk/Pala does a better job of portraying samurai than the CW class does (even though it´s just an approximation or whatever).

[Hugh]

I'd guess that the PCs and important NPCs have around a 32 point buy. i don't think Roy necessarily has better stats than Elan. We know Elan has an 18 Charisma and that Var has an 18 INT. Those 18's are expensive. Here is what I would guess their initial 1st level stats to be with a 32 point buy.

Roy
STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON:14
INT: 13 (for Combat Expertise)
WIS:12
CHR:13

Optional: May be a little more CHR for a little less WIS.
Build: Pure Fighter

Elan
STR: 10
DEX: 14
CON:12
INT: 8
WIS:12
CHR:18

Optional: Maybe 10's in both INT and WIS.
Build: Bard + Dashing Swordsman (Prestige Class?)


Miko
STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON:11
INT: 10
WIS:11
CHR:16

I doubt Miko has any Wisdom bonus. She certainly is not wise enough to see the error of her ways. Therefore, it does not hurt her to wear light armor. She has used Evasion so she certainly is not wearing more than light armor. My best guess would be a mithral breastplate. Her Dex needs to be high enough to support Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, which it is with level additions to DEX.
Build: Monk 2 and the rest Paladin (fallen)


Vaarsuvias
STR: 10
DEX: 12
CON:10
INT: 18
WIS:14
CHR:10

Optional: Maybe a little play in WIS, STR, DEX and CON.
Build: Pure Wizard


Durkon
STR: 14
DEX: 10
CON:16
INT: 10
WIS:18
CHR:8

Optional: Maybe a little less WIS to improve CHR (but we know he does not have a bonus) or INT.

[Alfryd]

But Miko didn´t, as far as I can tell, dump Int.
That she certainly did not. But it's not needed for her build.

You get nothing special other than spells (4th level and lower), extra remove diseases, and extra smites.
Extra Lay on Hands, extra hit dice, and extra BAB.

...well, looking at the battle transcripts. I think she only gets one extra attack from her offhand, which suggests that she has only taken one TWF feat.
The battle transcripts ndicates that she gets exactly 3 attacks with her primary and 2 attacks with her secondary weapon.

However, we must not forget up to this point she hasn't really fought anyone who was on her level.
What, you mean, aside from whipping Redcloak and his 16+ CoDzilla levels?

She fought Roy and was slowly losing the fight until she got her stunning kick in that stopped his attacks.
Roy had a +5 weapon which he wouldn't normally be entitled to until close to epic level. Miko was missing her secondary weapon and had just lost all her supernatural abilities, it is also not unlikely that her primary weapon was attuned for use only by a paladin (Holy Avenger, say) and thus conferred little benefit in combat.

In most point-buy systems, it costs more points to increase scores to higher values.
Yes. That is why I gave Miko Dex 16, rather than 18. Please, do the Math.


Ah, here we go now: 35 point-buy for each character, + level and racial adjustments.

{table=head]Character|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha
Roy|20|8|14|14|14|12
Elan|14|16|14|8|10|18
Belkar|18|18|14|11|8|10
Haley|8|21|14|14|9|14
Durkon|15|8|18|11|20|8
Vaarsuvius|8|20|11|19|12|8
[/table]

Roughly plausible, I think.

[mockingbyrd7]

That she certainly did not. But it's not needed for her build.

Extra Lay on Hands, extra hit dice, and extra BAB.

The battle transcripts ndicates that she gets exactly 3 attacks with her primary and 2 attacks with her secondary weapon.

What, you mean, aside from whipping Redcloak and his 16+ CoDzilla levels?

Roy had a +5 weapon which he wouldn't normally be entitled to until close to epic level. Miko was missing her secondary weapon and had just lost all her supernatural abilities, it is also not unlikely that her primary weapon was attuned for use only by a paladin (Holy Avenger, say) and thus conferred little benefit in combat.

Yes. That is why I gave Miko Dex 16, rather than 18. Please, do the Math.


Ah, here we go now: 35 point-buy for each character, + level and racial adjustments.

{table=head]Character|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha
Roy|20|8|14|14|14|12
Elan|14|16|14|8|10|18
Belkar|18|18|14|11|8|10
Haley|8|21|14|14|9|14
Durkon|15|8|18|11|20|8
Vaarsuvius|8|20|11|19|12|8
[/table]

Roughly plausible, I think.

From what I've seen, in story terms, not metagaming terms, I would stat them somewhere around...

{table=head]Character|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha
Roy|18|10|18|16|13|13
Elan|12|16|12|8|8|20
Belkar|16|18|14|11|7|10
Haley|8|21|14|16|9|16
Durkon|15|8|18|10|20|8
Vaarsuvius|8|14|10|20|14|9
[/table]

Just my opinions from what I've seen.

[Chronos]

Yes. That is why I gave Miko Dex 16, rather than 18. Please, do the Math.I did the math. Apparently, though, I didn't do the math correctly. My apologies.

Your estimates on the other characters look mostly reasonable, but I would make a few changes. Elan, I'd think would have a bit less strength, or his Dashing Swordsman quip ability wouldn't really help him. Belkar, I'd give a higher Int (he's very cunning, when it benefits him) but a lower Cha (the only thing he uses Charisma for is Intimidate, and he probably has a lot of ranks in that). Haley probably doesn't have a strength penalty, since Vaarsuvius explains to Haley that e grabbed a lighter loot bag than she did since e has a strength penalty, so I'd increase her strength and decrease Con. And the Giant has described Vaarsuvius as having "no real attack bonus with rays", which would suggest a low dex (so probably put those points into Con instead).

[Kioran]

Ah, here we go now: 35 point-buy for each character, + level and racial adjustments.

{table=head]Character|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha
Roy|20|8|14|14|14|12
Elan|14|16|14|8|10|18
Belkar|18|18|14|11|8|10
Haley|8|21|14|14|9|14
Durkon|15|8|18|11|20|8
Vaarsuvius|8|20|11|19|12|8
[/table]

Roughly plausible, I think.

That´s, of course, assuming the Characters are equal. Of course, according to Rich, they do not have hard-and-fast stats, but I don´t think they´re equal. V, for example, comes of far to good. V is squishy and doesn´t even have much Dex, for example. Some of the stats don´t match with my perception as well, but that was the glaring exception.
I don´t think they´re "point bought".......

[belboz]

Str 14, Dex 18, Con10, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 22


I dunno...I'm certainly not one to advocate *confusing* Cha with social skills, but a 22 Cha means that, even if Miko never bothered to put a single rank into Diplomacy (which I could believe, class skill or no), she should have a +6 bonus to untrained diplomacy rolls based on pure natural talent. That's an average roll of 16.5.

Does Miko strike you as making an average of 16.5 on her Diplomacy checks?

[BobTheDog]

After level 5 or 6, Paladin becomes a bit of a dead class. You get nothing special other than spells (4th level and lower), extra remove diseases, and extra smites.

Actually, there is one BIG reason to keep leveling up as a paladin: Smite damage = paladin level

[Kioran]

I dunno...I'm certainly not one to advocate *confusing* Cha with social skills, but a 22 Cha means that, even if Miko never bothered to put a single rank into Diplomacy (which I could believe, class skill or no), she should have a +6 bonus to untrained diplomacy rolls based on pure natural talent. That's an average roll of 16.5.

Does Miko strike you as making an average of 16.5 on her Diplomacy checks?

I don´t know, but for me, a high modifier in anything, up to and including seduction skills in some RPG-sytems, do not necessarily include automatic action. That modifier doesn´t do much unless she´s actually trying - which, most of the time, she isn´t. Apart from that, in most games, PCs are immune to social skill checks.......

[Behold_the_Void]

As I recall, the Giant has said that Roy's Constitution is fairly low for a fighter, and the fact that he would have made a good wizard puts his intelligence at at least 15.

Miko probably has fairly low wisdom (11 or maybe a touch higher), high charisma, reasonable strength, good dexterity, and low constitution.

Remember, Charisma can be force of personality. Say what you will about Miko, she has a definite presence. Even with an average of 16.5 on her diplomacy rolls, her abrasive personality means she never bothers to roll anything than, say, intimidate (also charisma based).

[Gez]

A Point Buy of 35, which seems the standard

The DMG certainly assumes that the standard is 25, with options for 22, 28 and 32.

Also, the "elite array" used to quickly make elite NPCs is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 -- and it is a 25-point buy set.

[Ithekro]

I guess that is why I asked about the older Comeliness being high for Miko while her Charism would be average or even low. An attractive but tactless Paladin.

Was Comeliness only in the Oriental Adventures, or was that strictly an AD&D thing from the early 80s?

[bluish_wolf]

I never liked linking appearance or comeliness to a number. That's way to subjective to tie down.

[Hiest, monkey]

I looked at this thread and said to myself, look at the book an LG sor/pally concept is briliant, the low hit die are balanced with the high, the spell selection is awesome, the familiar and mount together already add a formidable offence. Make it the rare sharpshooter oriented palladin. Their stragety being if it benifits the greater good screw fair fights, this agrees well with a sorcerors lifestyle, and the whole build opens up the opertunity to take that dragon aprentice thingy prestige class.

Now most people are thinking, hey this is off opic, but my theory is that miko uses illlusion magic to make it look like she really is using monk abilities, and is actually the wild card for team pally. Also sorcerors are generally pompous jerks. explains miko's atitude. Its a joke people. but it explain Xkon and Nale...

[Yeril]

Roy had a +5 weapon which he wouldn't normally be entitled to until close to epic level.

From the description I would say he has a +6 weapon

+5 of undead bane (hence the green light of zombie whoopass)

but that doesn't help in this situtation unless miko is a vampire

[BobTheDog]

I never liked linking appearance or comeliness to a number. That's way to subjective to tie down.

Well, you can take the DMG advice on "Charisma vs. character traits" (somewhere on the 100 NPC traits area):

If you want a high-Charisma character with half his face burned, assume that he's got the personality to compensate. Or the other way around, and you have a female paladin that can get a fighter infatuated with her looks despite her total lack of tact.


From the description I would say he has a +6 weapon

+5 of undead bane (hence the green light of zombie whoopass)

but that doesn't help in this situtation unless miko is a vampire

A +5 bane weapon is still a +5 weapon in everything except price. (And this matters when you need to beat down things with #/epic DR.)

[mockingbyrd7]

From the description I would say he has a +6 weapon

+5 of undead bane (hence the green light of zombie whoopass)

but that doesn't help in this situtation unless miko is a vampire

It activated against both Miko and Sabine, and it seemed that those blows hurt more than the others:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html

[mockingbyrd7]

Oh, and my opinion on Miko's stats...

{table=head]Character|Str|Dex|Con|Int|Wis|Cha
Miko|16|18|13|14|11|16
[/table]

[leo_neil316]

The thing about mikos build I don't get is actually her feats.

I mean, not counting her paladin and monk class feats, she has to have atleast exotic weapon proficiancy, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting and ambidextrous. So if we're assuming she's level 16ish she'll only have another one?

Considering her (probable) lowish str and high dex that'd be weapon finness. But she still ends up being a lvl 16 primary combat character with low hp, and not enough stuff to guarantee hits, or to avoid taking them (No spring attack? No weapon focus?) I mean, yeah she'll have saves out the wazzo and that'll hurt casters but that won't help her if she ever ends up toe to toe with a decently equip'd pure melee..................

Hang on, I'm getting deja vu here.

Unless monks get the same thing as rangers with the dual wield and I just forgot.................

[Kioran]

The thing about mikos build I don't get is actually her feats.

I mean, not counting her paladin and monk class feats, she has to have atleast exotic weapon proficiancy, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting and ambidextrous. So if we're assuming she's level 16ish she'll only have another one?

Considering her (probable) lowish str and high dex that'd be weapon finness. But she still ends up being a lvl 16 primary combat character with low hp, and not enough stuff to guarantee hits, or to avoid taking them (No spring attack? No weapon focus?) I mean, yeah she'll have saves out the wazzo and that'll hurt casters but that won't help her if she ever ends up toe to toe with a decently equip'd pure melee..................

Hang on, I'm getting deja vu here.

Unless monks get the same thing as rangers with the dual wield and I just forgot.................

Yeah, the TWF is pretty suboptimal - but then, all major OoTS(escept Durkon) characters make one mechanically unsound decision:

- Roy is Fighter, after lvl 12
- Haley has ranged attacks
- Belkar is Halfling, which costs strength and gives your weapon worse damage dice
- Vaarsuvius, as far as I can tell, banned conjuration
- Elan is Bard and simply sucked at everything until he became dashing Swordsman

the list goes on, but, incidentally, only villains are somewhat optimized. This is not surprising, since they wouldn´t be worth their CR otherwise........

[bluish_wolf]

- Haley has ranged attacks
the list goes on, but, incidentally, only villains are somewhat optimized. This is not surprising, since they wouldn´t be worth their CR otherwise........

What's wrong with ranged attacks? She's a rogue, not a fighter.

[Kioran]

What's wrong with ranged attacks? She's a rogue, not a fighter.

Back somewhere in the "I don´t like Haley" -Thread, there´s a detailed listing of the reasons, but to give you a short synopsis:

- Sneak Attack is a Rogues main source of damage
- Range attacks don´t flank
- Even without flanking, Combat Expertise/Improved Feint would enable her to use her maxxed out bluff to let her Sneak Attack opponents - in melee

The long and short of it is that while it´s better for her squishyness, it puts a crimp in her style if you consider damage output

[Iranon]

Considering her (probable) lowish str and high dex that'd be weapon finness. But she still ends up being a lvl 16 primary combat character with low hp, and not enough stuff to guarantee hits, or to avoid taking them (No spring attack? No weapon focus?) I mean, yeah she'll have saves out the wazzo and that'll hurt casters but that won't help her if she ever ends up toe to toe with a decently equip'd pure melee


However, if you consider her modus operandi (lone paladin sent on dangerous tasks), the whole thing still makes sense. Depending on whether she actually wears armour, she might be able to outrun melee threats that prove to be too much (stunning fist helps as well, as she demonstrated against Roy), and her otherworldly saving throws ensure she will have a decent change of avoiding most auto-kills.

If you scrap the idea that she'll only face manageable encounters because the DM will always be fair, her build seems fairly good. Unless you consider builds that deviate from the theme - incorporating a fair amount of magic or sneaky stuff - she was quite good at smiting things she can handle while still being able to survive things she can't.

[Chronos]

I mean, not counting her paladin and monk class feats, she has to have atleast exotic weapon proficiancy, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting and ambidextrous. So if we're assuming she's level 16ish she'll only have another one?First of all, they took out the Ambidexterity feat in 3.5: It's now part of Two-Weapon Fighting. Second, you're forgetting that she's human, and thus gains a bonus feat. So she has three other feats than the ones you list. There's also evidence that she has Power Attack and Cleave, both generally considered pretty good choices. Certainly, there are some good choices that she doesn't have room for, but that's going to be true for any non-fighter warrior.

As for Belkar being a halfling, on net, he gets about -2 to damage (actually only -1.5, since he uses daggers, though you could still debate the prudence of using daggers), +2 to AC, and nice bonuses to his stealth skills. Given Belkar's style, it's actually not all that bad a choice.

[leo_neil316]

Gah and Gah your right, that makes it quite a bit better. And at a guess I'd say probally extra smiting as the other (cause hey its miko).

And theres nothing wrong with high level fighters. There isn't anything especially stupidly broken -good- about them like some cheesy things we could name. But theres nothing wrong with them either.

[Alfryd]

From what I've seen, in story terms, not metagaming terms, I would stat them somewhere around...
Oh, and my opinion on Miko's stats...
Entirely plausible, but I was constrained in certain respects by the analyses of the Class & Level Geekery thread.

I did the math. Apparently, though, I didn't do the math correctly. My apologies.
Not to worry.

Haley probably doesn't have a strength penalty...
I think it's explicitly mentioned somewhere that Str was her dump stat. Combat analysis indicates Con 14+. Belkar's changes are plausible.

As I recall, the Giant has said that Roy's Constitution is fairly low for a fighter, and the fact that he would have made a good wizard puts his intelligence at at least 15.
Quite plausible, but combat analysis indicates Con of 16 or more. I took the shallower estimate.

The DMG certainly assumes that the standard is 25, with options for 22, 28 and 32.
I meant standard within the OOTSverse, going by the most formidably-endowed characters.

Does Miko strike you as making an average of 16.5 on her Diplomacy checks?
Here, you're assuming she makes any.

I never liked linking appearance or comeliness to a number. That's way to subjective to tie down.
When someone manages to define Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma in a consistent, unambiguous and concise fashion, I will consider caring about this.


I looked at this thread and said to myself, look at the book an LG sor/pally concept is briliant...
The 'Galadriel Build' is indeed interesting, but you're best off only taking a level or 2 in Paladin then. I would think.

Yeah, the TWF is pretty suboptimal...
The benefit of TWF is that it allows Miko to either concentrate damage on a single foe or spread it out over many with relative ease, which would be handy if she often deals with gangs of enemies much lower level than her. She's not a PC, after all. Cleave and Power Attack would fit this contingency too.