tedcahill2
2017-05-05, 10:30 AM
The skills system in 3.5e D&D is designed to quantify nearly every activity that a player character might do, and apply a skill check to it. I have thought a lot about condensing down the skills list, which stands at around 50 skills, but every time I do I end up compromising them by making certain combinations that kinda sorta make sense, but not really, and I'm trading logic for simplicity. Like it sort of makes sense to combine Knowledge Nature and Survival; but it makes no sense that both a scholarly wizard and a ranger would have the same capabilities in the woods.
Instead of condensing and combining skills, many suggest to simply give players more skill points, and by and large I'm sure that works. I came up with another idea, skill groups.
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What are Skill Groups?
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A skill group is a set of 2 to 3 skills, depending on the "value" of the skills in the set, in which skill points can be used to buy ranks, that in turn count as ranks for each of the skills in the set.
The reason I think skill groups are a fitting solution to the issue of "too many skills not enough skill points" is it effectively provides additional skill points, but with a theme that fits that of the class it's associated with.
I would encourage players and DMs to come up with skill groups they feel are appropriate to their characters, as whatever list we come up with here will not be exhaustive. However as a guide line, skill groups should be thematically appropriate to the role or style of play that the class is typically associated with. They are not meant to be a way to discount exactly the skills your player wants them to. For example: I don't care that you want your barbarian to be a master of disguise, you will not convince me to give you a skill group for bluff and disguise.
Their will likely always be some over lap between two characters of the same class, most rogues, regardless of their play style, may very likely take the stealthy skill group for hide and move silently. My vision for skill groups are to use them as a way to further define what your character is particularly focused on being good at, and as a result of that focus you can invest in your core skills more efficiently.
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How do Skill Groups work
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Upon taking 1st level in a class, the player chooses one skill group, from their class list (below), per 2 base skill points per level provided by that class (Cleric = 1, Barb = 2, Bard = 3, Rogue = 4). Each class (will have) has a list of skill groups that is about 3 to 4 times more than the number they can choose (Cleric = 3-4, Barb = 6-8, Bard = 9-12, Rogue = 12-16). By having many more skill group options than a class is able to choose should help ensure some variety among members of the same class. You can invest a number of skill points, earned from that class, to buy ranks in your skill groups up to your class level. Ranks in a skill group cannot be purchased using crossclass skill points. Each rank in a skill group counts as 1 rank in each of the skills in the set. Additional skill ranks are purchased using all the normal rules for class/cross-class and max ranks.
By limiting ranks in skill groups to class level you can never reach max ranks in a skill through the skill group alone. You would have to spend additional skill points to reach max ranks. Some skill groups will include skills that are normally cross-class skills for the class, and just because they are included in a skill group does not make them class skills. Ranks in a crossclass skill, that's part of a skill group, can exceed the normal rules for max ranks in a cross-class skill, however you still could not buy additional ranks, since you've exceeded the max ranks for a cross class skill. For example: a level 5 barbarian with 5 ranks in the hunting skill group, would effectively give him 5 ranks in Knowledge Nature, and Survival. He could then spend 3 more skill points to bring survival to the maximum 8 ranks, but since Knowledge Nature is a cross class skill for a barbarian, and the max ranks for a cross class skill is 4 at that level, he could not spend additional skill points to increase it.
If you are using skill groups you should not also use skill synergies.
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Ways to Get Skill Groups
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In addition to your class, I am looking at races as a way to get more skill groups.
Some examples:
Elves getting the Perception (Listen, Spot) skill group.
Gnomes getting the Tinker (Open Lock, Disable Device) skill group.
Humans and Half-elves getting to choose any one skill group.
Dwarves getting the Stone Craft (Appraise, Knowledge Arch/Eng) skill group.
Additionally, the plethora of feats that give +2 to two skills should all be changed as follows:
You immediately gain 2 ranks in the [feat name] ([skill one], [skill two]) skill group. Furthermore you can spend skill points, from any source, to purchase additional ranks, not to exceed your character level, in the skill group.
Special: If acquiring a skill group causes you to exceed max skill ranks in a skill, the excess skill points should be reallocated to another skill. Skill points reallocated in the way cannot be invested in skill groups.
While class based skill groups would limit ranks to your level in the corresponding class, groups gained from your race or a feat would be limited to your character level.
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Skill Groups (I could use a hand expanding on this part) work in progress
------------------------------------------------------------------
Below are some of the skill groups I've thought up:
Academia - Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history)
Acrobatics - Balance, Tumble
Athletics - Climb, Jump, Swim
Deception - Disguise, Forgery
Thievery - Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope
Spycraft - Bluff, Disguise
Linguistics - Decipher Script, Speak Language
Perception - Listen, Spot
Arcana - Knowledge (arcane), Spellcraft
Stealth - Hide, Move Silently
Psionics - Psicraft, Knowledge (psionics)
Hunter - Knowledge (nature), Survival, Use Rope
Tinker - Disable Device, Open Lock
Animal Affinity - Handle Animal, Ride
Nature Affinity - Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature)
Focus - Autohypnosis, Concentration
Spelunking - Climb, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Use Rope
Investigation - Search, Sense Motive
Steetwise - Knowledge (local), Gather Information
Cosmology - Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes)
Medicine - Knowledge (nature), Heal
Persuasion - Diplomacy, Intimidate
Mercantilism - Appraise, Diplomacy
Interrogation - Intimidate, Sense Motive
Aristocrat - Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Sense Motive
Agility - Balance, Escape Artist
Meticulous - Appraise, Decipher Script
Arcane Affinity - Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Psionic Affinity - Psicraft, Use Psionic Device
Negotiation - Diplomacy, Sense Motive
Autonomous - Autohypnosis, Knowledge (psionics)
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Class Skill Groups
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Barbarian
Hunter (kn nature, survival, use rope)
Athletic (climb, jump, swim)
Perceptive (listen, spot)
Spiritual (kn nature, kn religion)
Animal Affinity (handle animal, ride)
Animalistic (handle animal, intimidate)
Bard
Linguist (decipher script, speak language)
Magician (escape artist, sleight of hand)
Arcane Affinity (kn arcane, spellcraft)
Mercantile (appraise, diplomacy)
Persuasive (bluff, diplomacy)
Deceptive (disguise, forgery)
Performer (perform any 2)
Artist (artistry any 2) <-- new skill, don't worry about it for now
Meticulous (appraise, decipher script)
Negotiator (diplomacy, sense motive)
Trickster (bluff, disguise)
Aristocratic (diplomacy, kn nobility, sense motive)
Cleric
Cosmology (kn religion, kn the planes)
Healer (heal, kn nature)
Divine Affinity (kn religion, spellcraft)
Templar (concentration, kn arcane)
Druid
Animal Affinity (handle animal, ride)
Nature Affinity (handle animal, kn nature)
Empathetic (diplomacy, heal)
Healer (heal, kn nature)
Divine Affinity (kn religion, spellcraft)
Fighter
Athletic (climb, jump, swim)
Animal Affinity (handle animal, ride)
Knightly (diplomacy, kn nobility and royalty)
Blacksmith (craft weapons, craft armor)
Instead of condensing and combining skills, many suggest to simply give players more skill points, and by and large I'm sure that works. I came up with another idea, skill groups.
------------------------------------------------------------------
What are Skill Groups?
------------------------------------------------------------------
A skill group is a set of 2 to 3 skills, depending on the "value" of the skills in the set, in which skill points can be used to buy ranks, that in turn count as ranks for each of the skills in the set.
The reason I think skill groups are a fitting solution to the issue of "too many skills not enough skill points" is it effectively provides additional skill points, but with a theme that fits that of the class it's associated with.
I would encourage players and DMs to come up with skill groups they feel are appropriate to their characters, as whatever list we come up with here will not be exhaustive. However as a guide line, skill groups should be thematically appropriate to the role or style of play that the class is typically associated with. They are not meant to be a way to discount exactly the skills your player wants them to. For example: I don't care that you want your barbarian to be a master of disguise, you will not convince me to give you a skill group for bluff and disguise.
Their will likely always be some over lap between two characters of the same class, most rogues, regardless of their play style, may very likely take the stealthy skill group for hide and move silently. My vision for skill groups are to use them as a way to further define what your character is particularly focused on being good at, and as a result of that focus you can invest in your core skills more efficiently.
------------------------------------------------------------------
How do Skill Groups work
------------------------------------------------------------------
Upon taking 1st level in a class, the player chooses one skill group, from their class list (below), per 2 base skill points per level provided by that class (Cleric = 1, Barb = 2, Bard = 3, Rogue = 4). Each class (will have) has a list of skill groups that is about 3 to 4 times more than the number they can choose (Cleric = 3-4, Barb = 6-8, Bard = 9-12, Rogue = 12-16). By having many more skill group options than a class is able to choose should help ensure some variety among members of the same class. You can invest a number of skill points, earned from that class, to buy ranks in your skill groups up to your class level. Ranks in a skill group cannot be purchased using crossclass skill points. Each rank in a skill group counts as 1 rank in each of the skills in the set. Additional skill ranks are purchased using all the normal rules for class/cross-class and max ranks.
By limiting ranks in skill groups to class level you can never reach max ranks in a skill through the skill group alone. You would have to spend additional skill points to reach max ranks. Some skill groups will include skills that are normally cross-class skills for the class, and just because they are included in a skill group does not make them class skills. Ranks in a crossclass skill, that's part of a skill group, can exceed the normal rules for max ranks in a cross-class skill, however you still could not buy additional ranks, since you've exceeded the max ranks for a cross class skill. For example: a level 5 barbarian with 5 ranks in the hunting skill group, would effectively give him 5 ranks in Knowledge Nature, and Survival. He could then spend 3 more skill points to bring survival to the maximum 8 ranks, but since Knowledge Nature is a cross class skill for a barbarian, and the max ranks for a cross class skill is 4 at that level, he could not spend additional skill points to increase it.
If you are using skill groups you should not also use skill synergies.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ways to Get Skill Groups
------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition to your class, I am looking at races as a way to get more skill groups.
Some examples:
Elves getting the Perception (Listen, Spot) skill group.
Gnomes getting the Tinker (Open Lock, Disable Device) skill group.
Humans and Half-elves getting to choose any one skill group.
Dwarves getting the Stone Craft (Appraise, Knowledge Arch/Eng) skill group.
Additionally, the plethora of feats that give +2 to two skills should all be changed as follows:
You immediately gain 2 ranks in the [feat name] ([skill one], [skill two]) skill group. Furthermore you can spend skill points, from any source, to purchase additional ranks, not to exceed your character level, in the skill group.
Special: If acquiring a skill group causes you to exceed max skill ranks in a skill, the excess skill points should be reallocated to another skill. Skill points reallocated in the way cannot be invested in skill groups.
While class based skill groups would limit ranks to your level in the corresponding class, groups gained from your race or a feat would be limited to your character level.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill Groups (I could use a hand expanding on this part) work in progress
------------------------------------------------------------------
Below are some of the skill groups I've thought up:
Academia - Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history)
Acrobatics - Balance, Tumble
Athletics - Climb, Jump, Swim
Deception - Disguise, Forgery
Thievery - Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope
Spycraft - Bluff, Disguise
Linguistics - Decipher Script, Speak Language
Perception - Listen, Spot
Arcana - Knowledge (arcane), Spellcraft
Stealth - Hide, Move Silently
Psionics - Psicraft, Knowledge (psionics)
Hunter - Knowledge (nature), Survival, Use Rope
Tinker - Disable Device, Open Lock
Animal Affinity - Handle Animal, Ride
Nature Affinity - Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature)
Focus - Autohypnosis, Concentration
Spelunking - Climb, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Use Rope
Investigation - Search, Sense Motive
Steetwise - Knowledge (local), Gather Information
Cosmology - Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes)
Medicine - Knowledge (nature), Heal
Persuasion - Diplomacy, Intimidate
Mercantilism - Appraise, Diplomacy
Interrogation - Intimidate, Sense Motive
Aristocrat - Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Sense Motive
Agility - Balance, Escape Artist
Meticulous - Appraise, Decipher Script
Arcane Affinity - Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Psionic Affinity - Psicraft, Use Psionic Device
Negotiation - Diplomacy, Sense Motive
Autonomous - Autohypnosis, Knowledge (psionics)
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Class Skill Groups
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Barbarian
Hunter (kn nature, survival, use rope)
Athletic (climb, jump, swim)
Perceptive (listen, spot)
Spiritual (kn nature, kn religion)
Animal Affinity (handle animal, ride)
Animalistic (handle animal, intimidate)
Bard
Linguist (decipher script, speak language)
Magician (escape artist, sleight of hand)
Arcane Affinity (kn arcane, spellcraft)
Mercantile (appraise, diplomacy)
Persuasive (bluff, diplomacy)
Deceptive (disguise, forgery)
Performer (perform any 2)
Artist (artistry any 2) <-- new skill, don't worry about it for now
Meticulous (appraise, decipher script)
Negotiator (diplomacy, sense motive)
Trickster (bluff, disguise)
Aristocratic (diplomacy, kn nobility, sense motive)
Cleric
Cosmology (kn religion, kn the planes)
Healer (heal, kn nature)
Divine Affinity (kn religion, spellcraft)
Templar (concentration, kn arcane)
Druid
Animal Affinity (handle animal, ride)
Nature Affinity (handle animal, kn nature)
Empathetic (diplomacy, heal)
Healer (heal, kn nature)
Divine Affinity (kn religion, spellcraft)
Fighter
Athletic (climb, jump, swim)
Animal Affinity (handle animal, ride)
Knightly (diplomacy, kn nobility and royalty)
Blacksmith (craft weapons, craft armor)