Is RHD a class?

[Yklikt]

For example, can if I am a Manticore, do I have levels in the Magical beast class? Or the Manticore class?

Please do not go explaining to me how RHD works. I get it, with the HP and BAB and saves and all. I want to know whether or not it counts as a class, like 'Fighter class'.

[Dagroth]

For example, can if I am a Manticore, do I have levels in the Magical beast class? Or the Manticore class?

For many purposes, Racial Hit Dice are the same as Class Levels. They count for determining when you get Stat Bonuses. They count for Max Ranks in Skills, they count for when you get Feats. They even count as levels for determining your Initiator Level for Tome of Battle maneuvers.

They do not count for purposes of LA buy-off... which, I think, is the only place they don't count.

[Yklikt]

For many purposes, Racial Hit Dice are the same as Class Levels. They count for determining when you get Stat Bonuses. They count for Max Ranks in Skills, they count for when you get Feats. They even count as levels for determining your Initiator Level for Tome of Battle maneuvers.

They do not count for purposes of LA buy-off... which, I think, is the only place they don't count.

You are not answering what I asked. Is it a class?

[Morcleon]

You are not answering what I asked. Is it a class?

It is not a class.

[martixy]

RHD means Racial Hit Die.

They behave in the same way as a class with absolutely no class features.

They are Hit Die, that are based on the creature's type(a little bit misleading to call them racial in that context, but it still makes sense).

[Yklikt]

It is not a class.

Thanks. Could explain a bit more on why it's not because I don't really get the reasons what makes something a class or not.


RHD means Racial Hit Die.

They behave in the same way as a class with absolutely no class features.

They are Hit Die, that are based on the creature's type(a little bit misleading to call them racial in that context, but it still makes sense).

Look, I get all that. Never did I ask anyone to explain to me how RHD works.

I asked whether there is something about them that is make them a class like 'outsider class' or 'Balor class' just like we have the 'fighter class' or not.

[Necroticplague]

Yes, it is.

Skills: A lycanthrope gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of its animal form, as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. (Animal is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any animal Hit Die.) Any skill given in the animal’s description is a class skill for the lycanthrope’s animal levels. In any form, a lycanthrope also has any racial skill bonuses of the base creature and of the base animal, although conditional skill bonuses only apply in the associated form.
In order to Multiclass into Animal, Animal must be a class. Since there's nothing about Animal RHD that would make them more of a class than other RHD, then all RHD must be classes.

[Yklikt]

Yes, it is.

In order to Multiclass into Animal, Animal must be a class. Since there's nothing about Animal RHD that would make them more of a class than other RHD, then all RHD must be classes.

Does that mean special abilities from race are class features when you have RHD?

[Starbuck_II]

For example, can if I am a Manticore, do I have levels in the Magical beast class? Or the Manticore class?

Please do not go explaining to me how RHD works. I get it, with the HP and BAB and saves and all. I want to know whether or not it counts as a class, like 'Fighter class'.

RHD counts as a favored class for multiclassing (In fact, some even mention it doesn't count against them). Like an NPC they need multiple to raise CR.

[Dagroth]

I think the relevant point is... why are you asking?

Can you take "Levels of Outsider" if you're a Human? No.

Do RHD "Levels" count for multiclassing penalties? No.

A class is something that anyone with an Int of 3 or higher can take. A Prestige Class is something that anyone with an Int of 3 or higher can take if they meet the prerequisites.

A Racial Hit Die is something that can only be taken by a member of a race.

Humans could, theoretically, take levels of "Humanoid (Human)" just like a Hobgoblin has levels of "Humanoid (Goblinoid)".

A Stonechild has 2 levels of "Outsider" and could take more if they really wanted to... or they could take Class Levels instead, which are generally better.

The only times Racial Hit Die are specifically referred to as "levels" are:
1) Lycanthrope, afflicted. You have to take "Animal Levels" to match up to the RHD of the animal.
2) Savage Progression. A way to play a race that has a bunch of LA & RHD starting at character level 1. More information on this can be found in Savage Species... though some other books have some information on this (Dopplegangers in Races of Destiny, Stonechilds in Races of Stone, etc.).


Does that mean special abilities from race are class features when you have RHD?

No. Racial Abilities are always Racial Abilities. You don't lose them if you somehow get permanently level drained of Racial Hit Dice; you can't retrain Racial Feats like you can Class Feats; etc.

[Yklikt]

I think the relevant point is... why are you asking?

Can you take "Levels of Outsider" if you're a Human? No.

Do RHD "Levels" count for multiclassing penalties? No.

A class is something that anyone with an Int of 3 or higher can take. A Prestige Class is something that anyone with an Int of 3 or higher can take if they meet the prerequisites.

A Racial Hit Die is something that can only be taken by a member of a race.

Humans could, theoretically, take levels of "Humanoid (Human)" just like a Hobgoblin has levels of "Humanoid (Goblinoid)".

A Stonechild has 2 levels of "Outsider" and could take more if they really wanted to... or they could take Class Levels instead, which are generally better.

The only times Racial Hit Die are specifically referred to as "levels" are:
1) Lycanthrope, afflicted. You have to take "Animal Levels" to match up to the RHD of the animal.
2) Savage Progression. A way to play a race that has a bunch of LA & RHD starting at character level 1. More information on this can be found in Savage Species... though some other books have some information on this (Dopplegangers in Races of Destiny, Stonechilds in Races of Stone, etc.).

It adds to your level. But is it a class? You are not answering that.

[zergling.exe]

Yes, it is.

In order to Multiclass into Animal, Animal must be a class. Since there's nothing about Animal RHD that would make them more of a class than other RHD, then all RHD must be classes.

That says "as if they had mutliclassed", meaning they didn't actually multiclass, they just did something equivalent (i.e. gained RHD).

[Coidzor]

Thinking of RHD as having "levels" in Giant or Monstrous Humanoid is mostly a way to help make them more easily understood, rather than any kind of support for the idea of multiclassing into them.

[Yklikt]

Thinking of RHD as having "levels" in Giant or Monstrous Humanoid is mostly a way to help make them more easily understood, rather than any kind of support for the idea of multiclassing into them.

But you can still start with them even if you can't multiclass into them.

[Necroticplague]

That says "as if they had mutliclassed", meaning they didn't actually multiclass, they just did something equivalent (i.e. gained RHD).
In order for 'as if they had multiclassed' to have any meaning, multiclassing must be possible in the first place.


Does that mean special abilities from race are class features when you have RHD?

No. Racial abilities are always racial abilities, never class features. Even if you get it from a class-like progression (such as Template Classes or Racial Classes), it's still a racial ability.

[Dagroth]

It adds to your level. But is it a class? You are not answering that.

I'm not sure why you want to know.

By RAW, no Racial Hit Dice are not Class Levels.

Functionally, they do pretty-much everything that Class Levels do... so saying they are not Class Levels can be deceiving and/or confusing.

What are you trying to exploit by saying they are (or are not) Class Levels?

Can you have 5 Hit Dice of Outsider and 20 levels of Wizard and not be Epic? No.

If you have 5 Hit Dice of Dragon and 15 levels of Sorcerer, is your next level automatically an Epic Level? Yes.

[Yklikt]

I'm not sure why you want to know.

By RAW, no Racial Hit Dice are not Class Levels.

Why, though.

I'm not trying to exploit anything specific but it is something I thought of.

[Coidzor]

But you can still start with them even if you can't multiclass into them.

For NPCs, yes.

For PCs, only with DM approval.

NPCs can advance by RHD on the DM side of things, but that's generally just representing a more powerful individual, not one that got XP and leveled up.

One of the differences between levels and RHD is that one can get class levels as one gains sufficient XP, while RHD can only be gained by already extant characters via some unusual means, such as contracting lycanthropy.


In order for 'as if they had multiclassed' to have any meaning, multiclassing must be possible in the first place.

"As if," when used in this sort of way,has more to do with helping to understand something and less to do with literally saying something happened.

If they actually multiclass into Animal, then it should just read as saying that they just multiclass into Animal.

[Dagroth]

In order for 'as if they had multiclassed' to have any meaning, multiclassing must be possible in the first place.

Uh, no.

"He soared through the air as if he flew... but he crashed into the ground anyway."

Flying was not possible in the first place.

[Yklikt]

In order for 'as if they had multiclassed' to have any meaning, multiclassing must be possible in the first place.

Can't you say 'as if he was flying' even though it is not possible for human to fly?

Well, never mind.

[Yklikt]

For NPCs, yes.

For PCs, only with DM approval.

NPCs can advance by RHD on the DM side of things, but that's generally just representing a more powerful individual, not one that got XP and leveled up.

One of the differences between levels and RHD is that one can get class levels as one gains sufficient XP, while RHD can only be gained by already extant characters via some unusual means, such as contracting lycanthropy.

So... You are also saying not a class.

[Coidzor]

Why, though.

Arbitrary designer decision, focus on class levels as things PCs have and RHD being more of a monster thing, tradition, saving space by not having to write up 20-level class tables for each Type.

That's probably about it.

[The_Jette]

It adds to your level. But is it a class? You are not answering that.

I've got to ask the obvious question: are you a Troll? Because your post is very troll-like. If RHD were a class, then anyone could take levels in it. Since a human can't take levels in "Dragon" to gain Dragon RHD, no, they're not a class. However, for the purpose of figuring out your ECL (effective class level), you have to take into consideration your racial hit dice and level adjustment, because a human with 5 levels of cleric isn't as powerful as a young adult red dragon with 5 levels of cleric. And, no, racial features are not the same as class features. Racial features are determined by what you are. Class features are what you learn. A wizard learns to cast spells. A sorcerer learns to channel the internal magic within them. A minotaur doesn't need to learn how to have horns on its head; nor does a dwarf need to learn how to have darkvision.
That being said, using the Savage Species guide is a way of taking a race and making a "young" or "immature" version of the main race, so that if you want to play an Incubus in a group of level 3 characters you still can. It doesn't make your race into a class. It just lets you start at a lower level.

[Zexionthefirst]

Why, though.

This reminds me of when I thought a friend to play. She asked me why you get a +1 if your strength of 13 or a +3 with a Wisdom of 16. There's not a reason. It's because that's how the game is designed.

RHD are not a class, because it's how the game is designed. ECL is you racial hit dice+class hit dice+Level adjustment. That means that RHD and Class levels are different. They work similar enough that you can conceptualize them, but they're not the same.

Now: If you are a DM, you can alter that with house rules. If you're a player, you can talk to your DM about Savage Progression. But, if you're just asking to ask, the answer is "Because that's how the game was made."

Edit: ninja'ed

[Yklikt]

Why do you think I seem like a troll, Jette?

[Dagroth]

Why do you think I seem like a troll, Jette?

Because you're asking "why" without giving a reason why you want to know the distinction.

You said you don't want an explanation of how Racial Hit Dice work... but knowing how they work is part of why they are different from, but share most traits with, Class Levels.

What is gained if RHD are Class Levels? What is gained if RHD are not Class Levels?

[Yklikt]

Because you're asking "why" without giving a reason why you want to know the distinction.

You said you don't want an explanation of how Racial Hit Dice work... but knowing how they work is part of why they are different from, but share most traits with, Class Levels.

What is gained if RHD are Class Levels? What is gained if RHD are not Class Levels?

I don't know, I find it interesting.

[Buufreak]

Meanwhile, he is trying to use his half baked logic from this thread to try and unfound the entire basis and rules of the Villain Comp. No big deal, definitely not a troll.

[Necroticplague]

Uh, no.

"He soared through the air as if he flew... but he crashed into the ground anyway."

Flying was not possible in the first place.

Your analogy helps make my point. Even if he isn't capable of flying, in order for 'as if he flew' to have any meaning, than flying must be possible to something, at least conceptually. Similarly, in order for 'as if multiclassing as an animal' to have any meaning, than multiclassing as an animal must be possible by something, otherwise that statement would have literally no meaning.

[Zexionthefirst]

Meanwhile, he is trying to use his half baked logic from this thread to try and unfound the entire basis and rules of the Villain Comp. No big deal, definitely not a troll.

What's Villain Comp? A PbP game? Nevermind. I did the thing, and found it.

[Buufreak]

What's Villain Comp? A PbP game?

If you would kindly go to the 3.5 forum main page, and scroll down ever so slightly, you will see it. Heck, even giving the old ctrl+F function a go would do wonders.

[Esprit15]

I don't know, I find it interesting.

So has a sufficient answer been given? They aren't class levels.

[zergling.exe]

Your analogy helps make my point. Even if he isn't capable of flying, in order for 'as if he flew' to have any meaning, than flying must be possible to something, at least conceptually. Similarly, in order for 'as if multiclassing as an animal' to have any meaning, than multiclassing as an animal must be possible by something, otherwise that statement would have literally no meaning.

But they could just have said that you are multiclassing into Animal, and it would mean the exact same thing, only now they are telling you that you can multiclass into Animal. By saying "as if" they are telling you to gain the RHD in the same way that leveling works. Not that you can take levels in Animal.

[Esprit15]

Hey, lookie what I found. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21984392&postcount=52)

[Zanos]

I don't know, I find it interesting.
What a load of crap.


I have found something:

Skills: A lycanthrope gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of its animal form, as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. (Animal is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any animal Hit Die.) Any skill given in the animal’s description is a class skill for the lycanthrope’s animal levels. In any form, a lycanthrope also has any racial skill bonuses of the base creature and of the base animal, although conditional skill bonuses only apply in the associated form.

If you can multiclass to Animal, Animal is a class. So all RHD are classes. So all the people in this competition who advanced the RHD should have done it as associated so all those builds are illegal!

C'mon man, your "I don't want to know for any reason, I just find it interesting" disguise is so paper thin I could breathe on it and it would rip in half.

No, RHD are not class levels. Maybe try asking on a different forum next time you want to pretend you have no reason to be invested in the discussion.

[Zexionthefirst]

If you would kindly go to the 3.5 forum main page, and scroll down ever so slightly, you will see it. Heck, even giving the old ctrl+F function a go would do wonders.

Actually, I jumped onto your profile, figuring you'd posted in said thread. Edited my original post, but it seems like you were on the response page. I will keep those tips in mind, though. I feel rather silly for not even thinking of the ctrl+F option.

Anywho, thank you. :smallsmile:

[Necroticplague]

Looking over the rules for advancing creatures, seems to muddy this a bit.

Monsters And Class Levels

If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters.

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s "monster class" is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size.
On one hand, the bolded specifically refers to class levels and RHD as seperate things. However, the very next sentence refers to it as a favoured class, thus indicating it is a class. Not even a 'never takes XP penalties for it, as if it was a favoured class', like what they do with the lycanthropy section, it flat-out is a favored class.

However, looking further, the fact that advancing by class and advancing by RHD are seperate entries leads me to believe that my initial position was incorrect. If RHD were class levels, they'd fall under 'advancing by class', and not need their own section.

[The_Jette]

Your analogy helps make my point. Even if he isn't capable of flying, in order for 'as if he flew' to have any meaning, than flying must be possible to something, at least conceptually. Similarly, in order for 'as if multiclassing as an animal' to have any meaning, than multiclassing as an animal must be possible by something, otherwise that statement would have literally no meaning.

"Flying was not possible in the first place" was implied to mean "flying for him was not possible..." Like wise, it can be assumed that in the sentence the "as if multiclassing" was its own idea, only raising animal hd, instead of taking a class. If he were a natural lycanthrope the animal hd would be built in as part of his race, but it isn't. He's not naturally an animal, therefore everything that a natural animal would have as part of their being would not be normal to him. Or, you can continue taking the interpretation of the sentence that makes the least amount of sense and roll with it. I have no control there.

[Yklikt]

What a load of crap.

C'mon man, your "I don't want to know for any reason, I just find it interesting" disguise is so paper thin I could breathe on it and it would rip in half.

No, RHD are not class levels. Maybe try asking on a different forum next time you want to pretend you have no reason to be invested in the discussion.

Well, it being interesting is a reason you know.

When I started the thread I was not thinking of the villainous comp, but then I realized it might have something to do with it too. I was sure then because necroticplagues post was very convincing. So not so much now.

No need for insults.

[Yklikt]

So has a sufficient answer been given? They aren't class levels.

I guess that is all I can go on for now if everyone seems to agree.

I don't really understand some of what you all are saying but some parts make sense and most of you are better at this anyway.

[Buufreak]

I guess that is all I can go on for now if everyone seems to agree.

I don't really understand some of what you all are saying but some parts make sense and most of you are better at this anyway.

Its not a matter of right and wrong, or who is better. It is a matter of English syntax, in which a metaphor or simile is used to compare two things that are very similar, but regardless are different, and therefore not equal.

[Yklikt]

Its not a matter of right and wrong, or who is better. It is a matter of English syntax, in which a metaphor or simile is used to compare two things that are very similar, but regardless are different, and therefore not equal.

Ok, look I'm sorry but I am not English and I don't really get the words you are using at all.

[ngilop]

HUGS ARE AWESOME!!!!!

I think you need to not pay attention to necroticplague getting confuzzled on some points in their first position :)

but instead pay attention to these next 5 words
Just a small town girl....

[Dagroth]

Ok, look I'm sorry but I am not English and I don't really get the words you are using at all.

A Metaphor is a story or phrase about something that gives meaning to something else. The story of "The Sour Grapes" is about a Fox who can't reach some grapes on a vine, so the Fox says "they were probably sour anyway". This is a metaphor for saying something that you can't have would not have been worth the effort to get.

A Simile is a word or phrase that is similar to another word or phrase... using something the reader/listener knows about to describe something the reader/listener doesn't know about. Saying "Like with Class Levels, a monster gains +1 to any stat the DM chooses with every 4 Racial Hit Dice they have. A monster that already has 4 or more Racial Hit Dice is assumed to have already used these stat bonuses.

There are many areas where Racial Hit Dice function the exact same as Class Levels... but they are not Class Levels.

Racial Hit Dice function as Class Levels for the purpose of Multiclassing for a Lycanthrope. They are treated as Favored Class levels for the purpose of Multiclassing, so you can have 7 Racial Hit Dice and 2 levels of Sorcerer and not have to take a Multiclassing penalty.

Racial Hit Dice are neither Associated nor Non-Associated Levels for the purpose of determining the CR of a monster. There is no set formula (that I know of) to determine what adding a set number of Racial Hit Dice adds to the CR of a monster. After all, adding 10 Dragon HD to a Red Dragon produces very different results compared to adding 10 Dragon HD to a Dragon Turtle. Adding 10 Vermin HD to a Giant Centipede produces very different results as well...

Yet clearly, in the 3 above cases, you're not increasing the CR of each monster by 10.

In the end, Racial Hit Dice are not Class Levels because the book says they are not Class Levels. One can attempt to figure out why they are not Class Levels, but it is pure speculation.

Before 3rd Edition, there were no rules for playing Monsters as PCs. There were no rules for Monsters gaining Class Levels. There were Monsters who had class abilities, and Character Race packages developed that players could use... but there was no "this is how you do it".

3rd Edition kept some stuff from 2nd Edition, while greatly expanding it as well. Part of the reason for all the different types of Racial Hit Dice were because people wanted to play Monsters as Characters. But, rather than simply make all monsters with Class Levels (which would've made most monsters too powerful), they created differing types of Racial Hit Dice... each giving different skills, different BAB & different Save progressions.

Yet, they clearly didn't want players to either be stuck taking Racial Hit Dice and never taking Class Levels... or deciding that taking Racial Hit Dice was better than taking Class Levels. Thus, they formulated the rules the way they did.

[Doug Lampert]

Racial Hit Dice are neither Associated nor Non-Associated Levels for the purpose of determining the CR of a monster. There is no set formula (that I know of) to determine what adding a set number of Racial Hit Dice adds to the CR of a monster. After all, adding 10 Dragon HD to a Red Dragon produces very different results compared to adding 10 Dragon HD to a Dragon Turtle. Adding 10 Vermin HD to a Giant Centipede produces very different results as well...

The method is in the SRD, and your monster manual, right next to the rules about associated and non-associated class levels.

Aberration, construct, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, ooze, plant, undead, vermin +1 per 4 HD added
Animal, magical beast, monstrous humanoid +1 per 3 HD added
Dragon, outsider, nonassociated class levels +1 per 2 HD or 2 levels added
Directly associated class levels +1 per level added

+10 HD to a dragon (that does not increase size or age category) is +5 to CR.
+10 HD to an vermin is +2 to CR. (+2.5, but then you round down.)

[dude123nice]

Ok, look I'm sorry but I am not English and I don't really get the words you are using at all.

Then either learn English or go to a forum in another language. This is purely a matter of opinion and if you don't understand the language of course you won't be able to follow the discussion. Fact is everybody is just speculating because, like many things in 3.5 and tabletop games in general, this matter has never been officially clarified.

[ShurikVch]

Note: there are some amount of monstrous classes/savage progressions - so, from this point, RHD will be a class

[Dagroth]

Note: there are some amount of monstrous classes/savage progressions - so, from this point, RHD will be a class

Still not a Class, just an alternate way to take LA/RHD and divide up how you pay for it and receive the benefits.

[ShurikVch]

Still not a Class, just an alternate way to take LA/RHD and divide up how you pay for it and receive the benefits.Check the Savage Species, Appendix 1: Sample Monster Classes - all monsters there have their own monstrous classes as favored, such as:
Favored Class: Annis hag.How it can be a "Favored Class" without being a Class?

[weckar]

...Because monstrous classes are an explicitly different way to gain RHD. The RHD are a class feature rather than being the class itself.

[Zexionthefirst]

Check the Savage Species, Appendix 1: Sample Monster Classes - all monsters there have their own monstrous classes as favored, such as:How it can be a "Favored Class" without being a Class?

Please feel free to take a look at page 25 of Savage Species.


This system is an alternative to the monster advancement system presented in the Monster Manual.

They count as favored classes because the book is using alternate rules to take both RHD and Level Adjustment, combine these two things, and turn them into Monster Classes. Please note: When using this system, you are gaining RHD from your levels of the monster class. Just as a base class gets hit dice from itself.

A level 2 Ranger with 2d8 ranger hit dice = a level 2 character.

A level 2 Minotaur with 2d8 Minotaur hit dice = a level 2 character.

And I'll say this again. Savage Species is an alternative to the monster advancement system presented in the Monster Manual. It is not being used unless the DM says it is. And when it is being used, it replaces other rules, meaning they do not conflict.

In conclusion: RHD are not a class. They can come from a Class, but they are not a class.

Edit: Ninja'd by weckar

[Deadline]

For example, can if I am a Manticore, do I have levels in the Magical beast class? Or the Manticore class?

Please do not go explaining to me how RHD works. I get it, with the HP and BAB and saves and all. I want to know whether or not it counts as a class, like 'Fighter class'.

Yes, and no. RHD function like class levels in pretty much every way with a couple of notable differences:


A monster's Racial levels always count as a favored class.
The rules for advancing CR by adding class levels are different than the rules for advancing CR by adding RHD, as per the rules in the Monster Manual.


That second one is the part that is relevant to your concerns in the Villain Competition threads.

[zergling.exe]

Please feel free to take a look at page 25 of Savage Species.


They count as favored classes because the book is using alternate rules to take both RHD and Level Adjustment, combine these two things, and turn them into Monster Classes. Please note: When using this system, you are gaining RHD from your levels of the monster class. Just as a base class gets hit dice from itself.

A level 2 Ranger with 2d8 ranger hit dice = a level 2 character.

A level 2 Minotaur with 2d8 Minotaur hit dice = a level 2 character.

And I'll say this again. Savage Species is an alternative to the monster advancement system presented in the Monster Manual. It is not being used unless the DM says it is. And when it is being used, it replaces other rules, meaning they do not conflict.

In conclusion: RHD are not a class. They can come from a Class, but they are not a class.

Edit: Ninja'd by weckar

And the fact that Savage Species is 3.0 and not 3.5. LA and monsters taking levels were still in their infancy.

[Thurbane]

As loathe as I am to jump into this particular discussion, whether RHD are counted as a "class" or not varies a little depending on exactly which rule or section is being referenced.

It's a question I've raised (specifically in regards to RHD counting towards initiator level) before: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481284-3-5-Couple-of-RHD-Questions

While the majority of the rules support a flat "no" in answer to the question of RHD being counted as a class, I personally don't believe it is an ironclad 100% thing.

FWIW, I will not be changing the rules of the Villainous Comp, or declaring past builds "Illegal!" based on the attempts of one embittered forum member (and strongly suspected duplicate account of a banned member) to try and ruin others fun.

[ShurikVch]

And when it is being used, it replaces other rules, meaning they do not conflict."Don't conflict" you say?
When it used, NPC Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) can feed as usual, but PC Barghest is incapable to - because got nerfed variant of Feed
Athach (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/athach.htm) may be advanced up to 28 HD - but not by Savage Species rules - because class stops at 19th level, and there are (AFAIK) no [epic] monster progressions


And the fact that Savage Species is 3.0 and not 3.5. LA and monsters taking levels were still in their infancy.Monster Class: Wight (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=3) (October, 2004)
Favored Class: Wight. The best multiclassing choice for a wight is rogue.

[Gullintanni]

In order for 'as if they had multiclassed' to have any meaning, multiclassing must be possible in the first place.

Not really. Lycanthropes can operate in a manner that is like multiclassing into Animal HD. What this triggers is a hypothetical situation that is specific to Lycanthropes, but without broader language, many different, logical inferences can be made from the statement within the SRD.

Generally speaking, characters can not simply multi-class to difference race, ergo, RHD are not a class.
Lycanthropes treat acquired HD as multi-classing, ergo RHD are a class.

Both are valid logical inferences. The former inference has broader support throughout the rules of 3.5, and the latter inference can be explained away as a case of specific trumps general; Under the scope of the game rules, the latter is the weaker of the two inferences, IMHO.



Monster Class: Wight (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=3) (October, 2004)

One of the interesting consequences of this article is that it sets a precedent for Monster Class levels as being distinct from RHD. Wight is an 8 level class that grants 4 RHD. Thus, RHD are not a class, but rather, in this case, a class feature belonging to Monster Classes.

EDIT: Also, this whole topic is a rules quagmire. This is where sane gaming goes to die (Much like the "Is Spellcasting Na, Su, Ex, or Sp" debate). :smalltongue:

[PacMan2247]

Racial hit dice are not a class, just as fighter hit dice are not a class. They are features of their respective classes, and can be advanced using standard rules within core rulebooks. Many monster classes include levels without hit die progression because of the power of other class features; these levels are accounting for the level adjustment assigned to the particular monster as a result of these features. Once the level adjustment and base racial hit dice are accounted for, additional racial hit dice can be used to progress the monster, but as has been noted, that is a suboptimal way for a creature of 3 or greater Intelligence to advance.

[Zexionthefirst]

"Don't conflict" you say?
When it used, NPC Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) can feed as usual, but PC Barghest is incapable to - because got nerfed variant of Feed
Context would be a thing here. The whole quote includes the line: "Savage Species is an alternative to the monster advancement system presented in the Monster Manual." This has the lovely effect of being an indicator that the line you pulled is saying that the monster progression rules are being replaced by the alternate rules from Savage Species.

As such, I don't see the relevance of the Barghest. But what do I know, I'm just a kid.


Athach (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/athach.htm) may be advanced up to 28 HD - but not by Savage Species rules - because class stops at 19th level, and there are (AFAIK) no [epic] monster progressions

Monster Class: Wight (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=3) (October, 2004)
Oddly enough, Libris Mortis is not the same book as Savage Species.

[Thurbane]

EDIT: Also, this whole topic is a rules quagmire. This is where sane gaming goes to die (Much like the "Is Spellcasting Na, Su, Ex, or Sp" debate). :smalltongue:

At my own table (and I'll freely admit this is probably a house rule) I let RHD be applied in whatever manner is most beneficial to the character in question, in the vast majority of cases.