Help with feat picks for missile mage

[Mike Miller]

I am starting out at level 4, grey elf. I want to go force missile mage and argent savant and mostly just fire off magic missiles. I need combat casting for prereq and I want arcane thesis. What metamagic would work well with this build? Or other feats? So far I was thinking empower, maybe maximize, and twin. Is repeat good for this?

[Venger]

a bunch of resources here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?97421-Magic-Missile-Build) but really anything you'd use on a standard mailman is probably appropriate enough.

[Deeds]

Fell Drain metamagic and invisible spell seem good.

For items: arcane gloves and pearls of power level 1. :p

[Crake]

Knowledge devotion I believe is a standard go-to for a force missile mage. +1-5 damage per missile increases your numbers pretty well, and it also makes empower better than maximize for 1d4+6 damage. Empower gets you 1d4*1.5+9 damage, for a damage range of 10-15, while maximize just does a flat 10 damage, so empower's minimum damage is equal to that of a maximized one. Saves you a metamagic level along the way.

[ATHATH]

On the items side of things, having Gloves of the Starry Sky, a Spellwurm, and/or a Mnemonicus might be nice. You might want to also pick up Heighten Spell and/or Quicken Spell, which will allow you to shoot out more missiles per round and/or increase the number of spell slots that you can use to cast Magic Missile.

[ATHATH]

Since Athasian Humans pick up a few powers known and have a sizable amount of PP, being one and picking up the Harden Energy, Snowcasting (for use with Hardened Energy), Bull Blast, and/or Concussive Blast feats might be a decent idea.

[Agahnim]

You don't need Heighten spell to cast MM from slots higher than level 1. Heighten would only increase the actual spell level of Missiles cast from such slots, increasing things that rely on spell level (such as save DC and globes of invulnerability). Seems pretty useless for this spell.

[Uncle Pine]

Reserves of Strength (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) will allow you to shoot 1-2 additional missiles with each casting, eventually breaking the limit of 5 missiles at 8th level or higher. See if you can grab Iron Will (its only prerequisite) from a visit to the Otyugh Hole instead of one of your 7 feats. A way to be immune to stun to go along Reserves of Strength would also be nice (scroll down here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) for a small list of items that do that, the Quick Recovery feat from Lords of Madness also works).

[Venger]

grab snowcasting and born of three thunders while you're at it. primitive caster is also a good choice since you can add the somatic back in for a +1 to cl.

[Inevitability]

Repeat may be overkill here. It's got the same target as the previous casting, but in many cases your initial barrage (or follow-up attacks from your allies) may already have killed it.

By the way, this isn't a feat suggestion, but have you considered becoming a dragonborn? Your ability scores are favorably changed, and you get something nice like flight or darkvision. It's not like gray elf gives something you need, other than the intelligence boost and elf subtype.

Also, as you're a caster and therefore want to go first, try to pick up a hummingbird familiar. If you can, take the 3rd-level elf wizard substitution level from RotW, which doubles the initiative bonus it grants from +4 to +8. Finally, pick Improved Initiative to get another +4.

[Crake]

Repeat may be overkill here. It's got the same target as the previous casting, but in many cases your initial barrage (or follow-up attacks from your allies) may already have killed it.

By the way, this isn't a feat suggestion, but have you considered becoming a dragonborn? Your ability scores are favorably changed, and you get something nice like flight or darkvision. It's not like gray elf gives something you need, other than the intelligence boost and elf subtype.

Also, as you're a caster and therefore want to go first, try to pick up a hummingbird familiar. If you can, take the 3rd-level elf wizard substitution level from RotW, which doubles the initiative bonus it grants from +4 to +8. Finally, pick Improved Initiative to get another +4.

Considering that, for a build like this, a high int score isn't at all necessary, I gotta assume he's going an elf for the flavour of being an elf. Being a dragonborn kinda ruins that flavour, and if we're going with suggestions to deviate from that, I'd have to say human is a far better option, the bonus feat would help immensely.

[Mike Miller]

Thanks for all the input! Yes, the elf is just flavor. Lots of good ideas though

[Eldariel]

Don't forget that both, Shield and Globe of Invulnerability (Any) entirely block this angle of attack, not to mention Magic Immunity, so have some backup plans at the ready. Supernatural Spell from Dweomerkeeper would work, but that's a bit far up and hard to qualify for. Easier to Dispel most protections (optimize a bit for it) and prepare other spells to deal with Golems and the like.

[Venger]

Thanks for all the input! Yes, the elf is just flavor. Lots of good ideas though

if you're rolling elf for flavor, I assume you don't want to be necropolitan. in that case, consider taking a dragonmark and mark of the dauntless to become immune to stunning so you can freely use born of three thunders.

[Inevitability]

if you're rolling elf for flavor, I assume you don't want to be necropolitan. in that case, consider taking a dragonmark and mark of the dauntless to become immune to stunning so you can freely use born of three thunders.

Reserves of Strength also becomes much more attractive in this case.

[TIPOT]

Knowledge devotion I believe is a standard go-to for a force missile mage. +1-5 damage per missile increases your numbers pretty well, and it also makes empower better than maximize for 1d4+6 damage. Empower gets you 1d4*1.5+9 damage, for a damage range of 10-15, while maximize just does a flat 10 damage, so empower's minimum damage is equal to that of a maximized one. Saves you a metamagic level along the way.

Pretty sure knowledge devotion doesn't work on magic missile as it's not a weaponlike spell.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Knowledge Devotion does not specify weapon damage, so anything time damage is dealt Knowledge Devotion shows some love.

[Venger]

Reserves of Strength also becomes much more attractive in this case.
yeah, MoD provides immunity to dazing also

Pretty sure knowledge devotion doesn't work on magic missile as it's not a weaponlike spell.

knowledge devotion applies to all damage rolls in an encounter. it isn't precision damage, so it's not weaponlike spells only.

[Crake]

Pretty sure knowledge devotion doesn't work on magic missile as it's not a weaponlike spell.

As others have said it applies to all damage rolls, not just weapon damage rolls. Additionally, to anyone who would argue that it should only apply once to the spell, I ask you this: If you had force resistance 5 by some means, would you resist each missile separately? I think most people would say yes. In that case, each missile is a separate damage roll, and since knowledge devotion makes no mention that it can only apply once to each spell (unlike warmage's edge for example, which specifically calls that out), it will apply to every missile.

[tiercel]

As others have said it applies to all damage rolls, not just weapon damage rolls. Additionally, to anyone who would argue that it should only apply once to the spell, I ask you this: If you had force resistance 5 by some means, would you resist each missile separately? I think most people would say yes. In that case, each missile is a separate damage roll, and since knowledge devotion makes no mention that it can only apply once to each spell (unlike warmage's edge for example, which specifically calls that out), it will apply to every missile.

I can't help but think that a campaign world in which magic missile can be made literally twice as effective (or more) at the cost of a single feat is going to have a lot more prevalent use of the shield (or nightshield, SpC) spell, items thereof, Brooches of Shielding, etc than it might otherwise, because anyone who doesn't do so will be that much more vulnerable to casual murder from 1st level spell slots (never mind actual metamagicked versions in higher spell slots).

Make a one trick pony too good at that one trick, and you can't really complain if the hard counter to the trick becomes a lot more common. (Especially as shield and nightshield are good for more than just lactose intolerance.)

[Venger]

I can't help but think that a campaign world in which magic missile can be made literally twice as effective (or more) at the cost of a single feat is going to have a lot more prevalent use of the shield (or nightshield, SpC) spell, items thereof, Brooches of Shielding, etc than it might otherwise, because anyone who doesn't do so will be that much more vulnerable to casual murder from 1st level spell slots (never mind actual metamagicked versions in higher spell slots).

Make a one trick pony too good at that one trick, and you can't really complain if the hard counter to the trick becomes a lot more common. (Especially as shield and nightshield are good for more than just lactose intolerance.)

well, that'd be any given campaign, since that's how the rules work.

if you take at least 3 levels of force missile mage, you can punch through anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Crake]

I can't help but think that a campaign world in which magic missile can be made literally twice as effective (or more) at the cost of a single feat is going to have a lot more prevalent use of the shield (or nightshield, SpC) spell, items thereof, Brooches of Shielding, etc than it might otherwise, because anyone who doesn't do so will be that much more vulnerable to casual murder from 1st level spell slots (never mind actual metamagicked versions in higher spell slots).

Make a one trick pony too good at that one trick, and you can't really complain if the hard counter to the trick becomes a lot more common. (Especially as shield and nightshield are good for more than just lactose intolerance.)

Sure, that's all well and good, it stops mages from casually just picking up those two for a good blast of damage, though force missile mage has a class feature that specifically overcomes those counters. But let's be fair, by the time you can start ramping out damage from magic missiles in that regard, other, much more devastating spells are coming online. Fireball alone outdamages an empowered, maximum knowledge devotion roll at level 5 if you hit at least 2 people. Average damage on that is 38.25, average damage on fireball's 5d6+5 (also assuming knowledge devotion, cause why not) is 22.5 per person, so it's not like magic missile is suddenly far and away the best option now, just because knowledge devotion got applied to it.

[Twurps]

Don't forget that both, Shield and Globe of Invulnerability (Any) entirely block this angle of attack, not to mention Magic Immunity, so have some backup plans at the ready. Supernatural Spell from Dweomerkeeper would work, but that's a bit far up and hard to qualify for. Easier to Dispel most protections (optimize a bit for it) and prepare other spells to deal with Golems and the like.

to be fair: A Force missile mage does get 'overpowering missile' at lvl3, giving it options to bypass shield.

[Eldariel]

to be fair: A Force missile mage does get 'overpowering missile' at lvl3, giving it options to bypass shield.

True, that does help and that's something I had actually forgotten about. Globes and magic immunity & al. are still something to keep in mind (notably Angel-subtype contains a 20' radius Lesser Globe of Invulnerability). And Overpowering Missile does require a caster level check, which is something to build towards.