How do you rule Turn Undead

[Tanarii]

Turned undead may not move to a space within 30ft of the Cleric. If they can't move, they have to may take the Dodge action.

I had a player new to my table, but not 5e, complain when I had an turned undead creature run directly away from him. Apparently his previous DMs had ruled as long as it couldnt move directly to a square outside thirty feet from the character on its first square of movement, it couldn't move at all. Since I play ToTM that's basically the equivalent of any undead in 1-25ft being forced to dodge, with any at 26-30 being able to move (but away).

Now, I've always played it as turned undead can can freely move away, or even at a right angle to, the cleric. Just so long as they move out of the area by the end of their move. I've seen arguments they could even right past run by the cleric so long as they end out of the 30ft, but as the DM I personally choose not to have them move closer so that's a non-issue for my games.

How do you DM Turn Undead? Anyone know of any dev clarifications or commentary on the matter?

[GPS]

RAW, they spend their turn getting as far away from you as possible. They also, of course, cannot attempt to get closer to you. Don't where all this not moving stuff comes from, but you're right on that ruling and that previous DM is wrong if you're ruling this RAW.

PHB Ref (from the "Channel Divinity: Turn Undead" description):
"A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. "

[Tanarii]

Here's the entire text of the Class Feature for the Cleric:
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead
As an action, you present your holy symbol and speak a prayer censuring the undead. Each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action.

[GPS]

Here's the entire text of the Class Feature for the Cleric:
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead
As an action, you present your holy symbol and speak a prayer censuring the undead. Each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action.
Oh, my bad. 1-29 ft. Dodge action if blocked, move away if not, 30+ ft. move away seems like the only interpretation I can find in this. They can't willingly come close to the character.

[Tanarii]

Oh, my bad. 1-29 ft. Dodge action if blocked, move away if not, 30+ ft. move away seems like the only interpretation I can find in this. They can't willingly come close to the character.
Depends on how you interpret 'move into a space within 30ft'. Because if it the space they're eventually moving to (ie end of turn), it's possible the furthest they can end the turn from the Cleric is by moving right past them. For example if the undead is next to the Cleric but in a corner. If it means for each individual part of the move, they can't.

Remember 5e was designed to work with Theater of the Mind, so 'space' doesn't necessarily mean 'square'.

That's why I'm asking.

[GPS]

Depends on how you interpret 'move into a space within 30ft'. Because if it the space they're eventually moving to (ie end of turn), it's possible the furthest they can end the turn from the Cleric is by moving right past them. For example if the undead is next to the Cleric but in a corner. If it means for each individual part of the move, they can't.

Remember 5e was designed to work with Theater of the Mind, so 'space' doesn't necessarily mean 'square'.

That's why I'm asking.
Ah, I getcha. I feel like if an undead creature had to choose between willingly moving past the cleric and getting as far away when turned, the not willingly moving towards the cletic when turned thing would trump the getting as far as possible thing. This would cause the undead to stay in place and dodge instead of taking a movement path past to the cleric.

Try as I might, an exaustive search I can't find a sage advice about Turn Undead pertaining to the movement of the undead creature in the SA compendium. Maybe check the podcast.

[Sigreid]

I read it as the undead will move away from the cleric. It cannot move closer the cleric under any circumstances while turned. If the only directions it can move would put it closer to the cleric, it's walled in for example, it can only take the dodge action. In that situation I would describe it as pressing itself against the wall farthest from the cleric.

So, if a cleric turned a zombie north of him. it could run north, east or west. it could not run south, south east or south west as those directions would put it closer to the cleric.

[Tanarii]

the not willingly moving towards the cletic


It cannot move closer the cleric under any circumstances while turned.Interesting. Because the thing it seems to go out of its way to avoid saying is 'cannot [willingly] move closer to the cleric'. Instead it merely says must spend its turn moving as far away as it can, and cannot move into a space within 30ft. It's entirely possible for an undead to move closer to a cleric, if it ends up moving as far away as it can. For example if it starts 40ft away, it can move 10 ft towards the cleric, then circle around the cleric at 30ft, to exit out a passage on the other side and end up 50 ft away from the cleric, which would meet the requirement. It spent its turn moving as far away as it can from the cleric, assuming there was no way to end up further than 50ft away via another route. The moving away restriction is explicitly for the totality of how it spends its turn.

To me, the only question is what exactly not moving to a space within 30ft means. Is it for each moment of movement, or the final destination? How does it work if it's already in a space within 30 ft of the cleric, but can end up outside that space by moving within it? Because that may or may not be for the totality of its turn.

[sightlessrealit]

I'd say it depends on the undead at least that how I would rule it.

A simple zombie I feel would probably wish to run in the opposite direction of it. If it can't it stay's there and take the dodge action. Something with a bit more intelligence would have a respectful fear of it's enemy but would use tactics to move into a position that was more advantageous but still away from it.

[Corran]

I read it as the undead will not be able to move at all if within 5-25 feet from you, but then again that's silly compared to how we were used to turn undead working. I dont think that was the RAI of it (assuming I am reading the RAW correctly and assuming RAW is not ambiguous enough).

[hymer]

I ruled it (as late as last night) as the turned undead fleeing, even when they must move through spaces within 30' to get far enough away. I wouldn't be opposed to other DMs ruling it the other way, though it's pretty weird and makes turn undead quite a bit better.

It seems one it would be worth asking for a clarification on from the Sage.

[EvilAnagram]

I read it as they cannot move to a point within 30' of you, as in the point to which they are moving must be outside that 30' range.

[Laserlight]

My ruling would be that
A) they may not move closer to you if they are within 30ft of you;
B) if they're outside 30ft, they may move closer as long as they don't get within 30ft and end the turn farther away from you than they started.
C) if they can't get farther away without getting with 30ft of you, they Dodge

[Nettlekid]

Hmm, I can absolutely see how RAW can be read as "There is a zone of 30 ft from the Cleric into whose spaces any Undead creature cannot move" so I get the notion of "If a Zombie Dwarf 5 feet from the Cleric can't get 30 feet in one movement then since it can't move to a space 30 feet from the Cleric it can't make a move" as being rules-consistent. But I think that RAI, applying context to the situation, the Undead should be able to do what you proposed and run as far as it can. If the Cleric is the source of holy energy which is disruptive to the Undead then being 20 feet away feels better than being 10 feet away, and if an Undead can get from 10 feet to 20 feet it would do so. The "if it can't move it must Dodge" clause is there to describe what happens if you box a Zombie in the corner.

[Tanarii]

My ruling would be that
A) they may not move closer to you if they are within 30ft of you;
B) if they're outside 30ft, they may move closer as long as they don't get within 30ft and end the turn farther away from you than they started.
C) if they can't get farther away without getting with 30ft of you, they Dodge
If I'm reading this right, I run it pretty close. Basically, they can move in a circle around you at the same distance, if the goal is to get further away during their movement, and so long as they don't end their move within 30ft of you. If they start within 30ft and can't do that, they dodge instead.

[Luvia]

cant undead do a dash or something to double their move? Or can undead not do that at all in 5ed?

[Beelzebubba]

They run as far and as fast away from you as possible.

Mindless undead do so in a straight line directly away, and if they get caught by walls or other impassable objects they cower as well as they can in that space.

Intelligent undead can, within reason, zig or zag - while going away from you the whole time - to get around obstacles to be able to get further away.

[Puh Laden]

If turned movement counts as "unwilling movement" it could move to a space within 30ft of the cleric. But iirc that would also mean no opportunity attacks. Though that might not be right, since its using its own movement.

[LtPowers]

If turned movement counts as "unwilling movement" it could move to a space within 30ft of the cleric. But iirc that would also mean no opportunity attacks. Though that might not be right, since its using its own movement.

This would be a reasonable interpretation, except for the fact that it would mean that a turned creature can never move willingly, in which case why specify places to which it cannot willingly move?

Edit: In other words, the fact that some particular subset of willing movement is prohibited by the rule implies that turned creatures can, in fact, move willingly.


Powers &8^]