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AslanCross
2007-08-01, 06:15 AM
I was writing up some NPCs for my campaign, and came up with the following idea. My campaign is set in Cormyr in the Forgotten Realms, but I'm pretty sure this idea can be applied to any setting if it does indeed fly.

1. Ms. Paladin meets Mr. Paladin during a crusade, falls in love with him, and they get married. They come from two different but allied paladin orders. (The guy is a Paladin of Tyr, and the girl is a Paladin of Torm).
2. They move to a new land (in this case, Suzail in Cormyr). The guy remains a paladin of Tyr and is known commonly as such, while Mrs. Paladin takes on a different identity: That of a swashbuckler. She is still known to be Mr. Paladin's wife, but the feeling she gives off to everyone is that she is a CG adventuring swashbuckler (maybe even CN) who never spends time with her husband.
3. The truth is that Mrs. Paladin is still very much an LG Paladin, but has levels in Gray Guard (Complete Scoundrel paladin PrC that allows a looser interpretation of paladin duty). As such she often goes around town disguised as Mr. Paladin's sour-faced, obese maid to collect information and spy on nobles that are suspected of corruption and treasonous activities. Alternatively she appears in her Swashbuckler adventurer outfit in the tavern. Still, Mrs. Paladin networks with her husband's order to disseminate information she's uncovered.
In other words, she's conceptually similar to Bruce Wayne.

Does Mrs. Paladin still make sense as an actual paladin?

JellyPooga
2007-08-01, 06:23 AM
Yeah, I don't see why not.

Contrary to popular belief, the Paladin class does not have 'Stick up your Butt' as a class feature. Nor does it require your character to be a "Holier-than-thou-clad-in-full-plate-armour-wielding-a-greatsword-screaming- blue-murder-'cos-that-guy-over-there-registered-evil-on-his-evilometer" type guy.

The only (real) requirement for being a Paladin is that you be an active force for Good in the world. How you go about it is up to you.

Mrs. Paladin sounds like a good character concept to me.

Zincorium
2007-08-01, 06:39 AM
As truthfulness is an important concept for a paladin to take to heart, if not an actual requirement, 'ol Mrs. Paladin should make an attempt to avert the truth as little as she can get away with and still maintain a low profile. There's no reason for a paladin to be blatant about the position and requirements of his/her duties, and a bit of circumstantial misdirection is certainly okay, but if the time comes when she must decide whether to remain true to the ideals or continue the masquerade, the ideals should come first. Even doubt in this matter is unbefitting a paladin.

Just make sure to take care and view everything in terms of whether it's truly right or not. Most players know what's in the best interest of the greater good, whether they act on it is what determines the ease they can play a paladin with. I personally have very high standards for a paladin's mortal decisions, but at the same time I don't make it too hard, if nothing else a paladin has the deities of goodness and light to fall back upon when the way becomes clouded and uncertain.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-01, 07:11 AM
Well, a paladin does not have to truthfully answer the question of "what character class are you", since that question doesn't make any sense in character.

The White Knight
2007-08-01, 08:17 AM
Well, a paladin does not have to truthfully answer the question of "what character class are you", since that question doesn't make any sense in character.

Aye, but the question "Are you a Paladin?" can arguably hold merit, where "Are you a Rogue?" does not.

Wulfram
2007-08-01, 08:23 AM
A true Paladin could conceivably go undercover, but would be very bad at maintaining a false identity for very long. They're still bound by their code, which ties them very much to a LG persona.

CG would be maintainable a quite a bit longer than CN, but people are going to catch on eventually.

Of course, the Grey Guard class is all about getting around the Code*, but it's still problematic. You still need a good reason to violate it, and I don't think a desire not to be known as a Paladin really qualifies, unless the revelation of your status would directly endanger lives.

*which is why I don't consider them true paladins, not that this is really relevant.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-01, 08:32 AM
Actually, if you're portraying a swashbuckler and someone asks if you're a paladin you could act all sarcastic, say "Pfft... Yea... sure, I'M a paladin." and then mimic walking around with a holier than thou attitude.

Or you could say, "A paladin? You mean like those guys in tin cans swinging a great sword and spouting all that religious stuff? No, I'm not one of them."

Unfortunately, it all boils down to a bluff/sense motive check

AslanCross
2007-08-01, 08:52 AM
I tend to summarize the paladin's code as doing what is good, what is lawful, and what is honorable.
Here are the justifications I can think of:
1. It is a good act because it actively seeks out what is evil in the system and exposes it in order to destroy it.
2. It is a good act because it is protective not only of Mrs. Paladin but the safety of common people who might get caught up into the whole political mess if they knew what Mrs. Paladin was doing.
3. It is a lawful act because Mrs. Paladin does this to weed out the bad parts of the government.
4. It is a lawful act because Mrs. Paladin still does not take matters into her own hands and allows due process to continue.
5. It is honorable because Mrs. Paladin does this at great personal risk, and I daresay greater than being on active police duty. Being in the center of the mess, if her cover is blown it would be over for her very quickly.
6. It is honorable because Mrs. Paladin does not use her cover to assassinate evil nobles or even threaten them into submission.

That said, the Gray Guard's Lv 1 class feature lessens the impact of dishonorable actions that have been committed on behalf of the paladin's cause and faith. (Ie, stabbing an evil cleric in his sleep, or doing this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compscoundrel_gallery/102042.jpg).)
You still end up falling, but atoning is easier. At Lv 10 you don't need to atone at all, as long as your actions were done for your cause and faith. Of course, this doesn't excuse outright immoral actions like slaughtering an orphanage.
Also, Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery are among the Gray Guard's class skills. In any case I still don't think Mrs. Paladin is even in danger of falling as long as she stays within the six parameters I outlined above.

The Prince of Cats
2007-08-01, 09:01 AM
Honesty may be a virtue, but being forthright is not a requirement. The trick would be less denying what she is and more keeping the question from ever coming up.

A paladin should never profit from deceit, but I see no reason why a paladin must put their life or their mission/cause in jeopardy for the sake of honesty. Lawful good is not lawful stupid...

AdversusVeritas
2007-08-01, 09:03 AM
3. It is a lawful act because Mrs. Paladin does this to weed out the bad parts of the government.
4. It is a lawful act because Mrs. Paladin still does not take matters into her own hands and allows due process to continue.With this sort of justification, I'd allow it in any of my games. After all, we have law enforcement officers who do this sort of thing in the real world. I'd probably want the PC to be doing her investigations as part of her order rather than acting on her own, but I don't automatically chalk up any lying as unlawful. For example, lying to protect your family is dishonest, but it is also loyal, so I wouldn't automatically consider it unlawful.

Everyman
2007-08-01, 09:13 AM
Frankly, this is one of the most interesting paladin NPCs I've ever seen. Not only does your NPC have her own unique traits, but she isn't breaking the code. Bending it perhaps...but not breaking it.

The only part of the official paladin code that she is a bit wobbly on is the "act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)" part. Frankly, I think requiring paladins to tell the truth CONSTANTLY is just too much for anyone to expect. Yes, your NPC might be misleading people around her a bit, but I wouldn't exactly equate that with dishonesty. Since she's a Grey Guard, I see no reason to penalize her.

Nice NPC.

Stephen_E
2007-08-01, 09:18 AM
As a Paladin I'd consider what she's doing ok so long as she doesn't flat out lie. A decent Bluff skill would be a good idea, but yeah, even if someone asks if she's a paladin, the simple answer is "Of course I'm a paladin!" with a smile and a chuckle. She tells the truth, and in most situations she's going to get a whopping bonus to her bluff simply because people will assume that no one hiding their identity wil openly tell you so with a simple question.

Of course if you're using that abortion of a Paladin prestige class called the Grey Guard, anything goes. (In case it's not clear I think the designer of that class suffered from "I want to play evil PCs but claim to be a saint!" syndrome.)

Stephen

Person_Man
2007-08-01, 09:22 AM
Why would a Paladin of Torm the True choose to live such an un-Paladin-like lifestyle? Wouldn't it require constant lying and duplicity? And why would she take such a passive role? Gray Guard lets you skirt your Paladin code, but it doesn't remove the basic motivation for being a Paladin in the first place.

And how is it logistically possible? Where is she getting so many ranks in Disguise and Bluff? If she's living and working in this area for a long period with two persona, maintaining an alter ego without magical aid is impossible. Statistically, its only a matter of time before you rolls poorly on her Disguise check and someone else rolls high on their Spot check. Then her cover is blown.

Maybe if she were a Paladin of some other god. And maybe if she has access to Alter Self. Interesting idea, but it just doesn't gel for me personally.

MrNexx
2007-08-01, 09:43 AM
FWIW, I've seen a couple alternate Paladin codes recently; one of them I think would make this difficult, the other would not.

The first is based on the 8 virtues of Ultima; Compassion, Honesty, Honor, Humility, Justice, Sacrifice, Spirituality, and Valor. I think the strict interpretation of honesty that this code has would make this kind of long-term deception untenable.

The second is a bit simpler, and a bit more flexible. It's the simple question "What Would Superman Do?" If it's something Superman would do, it's allowed to a paladin. Since we know Superman has a penchant for disguises as a way of gathering information, it would be acceptable to a WWSD paladin.

I could see a Torm paladin being of the WWSD type; the importance is the duty owed to one's superiors. An excerpt from "Faiths and Avatars" (the 2nd edition version of Faiths and Pantheons, but whereas F&P put everything in one book, the deity trilogy in 2nd edition spread it over 3 books FILLED with detail).


A few adventuring Tormtar are permitted more leeway in their personal deeds than other clergy of the faith, but in return for this personal discretion as to their activities, they are pledged to tithe heavily (60% or more, plus payment for magical aid) to the church and to observe and report back on all they can of regions, beasts, and concerns their brethern seldom see so that the church of Torm can know Faerun as well as possible (despite the static demands of guardianship). Torm himself often speaks to his clergy members to provide guidance and to reassure doubtful priests that a fellow Tormtar who is an adventurer is allowed to act thus and so in Torm's full favor (or that Torm is displeased and the following penance shall be placed on the individual).

hewhosaysfish
2007-08-01, 09:55 AM
Why would a Paladin of Torm the True choose to live such an un-Paladin-like lifestyle?

From dictionary.com

true
–adjective
1. being in accordance with the actual state or conditions; conforming to reality or fact; not false: a true story....

...4. firm in allegiance; loyal; faithful; steadfast: a true friend....


I think they call him "the True" with the latter meaning, being god og duty and all. Which isn't to say that he's not truthful but no more so than any other LG god or most LN ones or even some of the LE ones.

AslanCross
2007-08-01, 09:58 AM
Point taken on the alter self thing. I was thinking that she already moved into the city in her swashbuckler guise and never ever appeared as a paladin, not even in private. Since she's an NPC and does most of this "off-screen," I'd say that she doesn't roll disguise and bluff checks in the first place. (Though that may be a flimsy excuse.)

IMO people wouldn't be making spot and sense motive checks against her in the first place because they have nothing to base their suspicions on. She wouldn't be lying to anyone's face. (Except perhaps in the event that she asks a wrong question, and she may be discovered---plot hook for PCs.)

As far as I can tell, Torm's "The True" epithet refers to duty, not necessarily truthfulness. (ie, his other epithet, "The Loyal Fury")
Quoted from Faiths and Pantheons:

Dogma: Salvation may be found through service. Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Strive to maintain law and order. Obey your masters with anticipation. Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals. Bring painful, quick death to traitors. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or alternatives, not additional laws. Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerun.

Then there's the Debts:
The Debt of Persecution: Aid the establishment of good faiths to repay the persecution of other goodly religions.
The Debt of Dereliction: Expend every resource possible to eliminate the cults of Cyric and Bane, and work against the Zhentarim.
The Debt of Destruction: The clergy must record locations of dead and wild magic areas and do what they can to heal the wounds of the Weave.
Stand vigilant against corruption within goodly organizations.

Telonius
2007-08-01, 10:01 AM
It's the simple question "What Would Superman Do?" If it's something Superman would do, it's allowed to a paladin.


What? Why, I'm just a mild-mannered reporter.

I'd say this paladin would be allowed under that rationale. :smallbiggrin:

Renegade Paladin
2007-08-01, 10:25 AM
I see two hangups here.

1.) The idea that you need to be a gray guard to do this kind of thing. You don't. In fact, the class sucks. The only thing it lets you get away with is stuff that blatantly violates the code, though theoretically only when you have a good reason. And if your reason is good enough (and the act doesn't involve sacrificing puppies and orphans) a reasonable DM will probably be easy on you.

2.) It's the paladin of Torm that's doing this? Dude, Torm is all about righteousness, chivalry, truth, duty, and all the other stereotypical knightly jazz. Tyrrans are a lot more likely to go in for that kind of thing. Torm wouldn't drop her from the roster for it I think, but he wouldn't exactly approve. When I made a paladin with this character concept, I specifically made him a Tyrran rather than a Tormite or Lathanderite like I usually play especially because of this concern.

Other than that, no, I don't see how this violates your average paladin's code.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-08-01, 10:28 AM
Recently, I played a Paladin doing some undercover snooping to solve a series of robberies. In a sense, he bluffed his way through a couple criminal contacts through half-truths and leading questions: "I'm looking for <stolen item>", which the unwitting informant assumed meant he wanted to buy it. He never lied, nor would he have if asked a direct "are you a Paladin?" or "are you working with the cops?" question, and all he did to disguise himself was tuck his holy symbol under his collar and scuff up his armor a little. Still, he did feel bad about the deception through omission involved, and wondered after catching the criminal if there wasn't a more Good/honorable way of handling it. But I have a fairly lenient DM, and we're in a fairly lenient setting, so I'm only in trouble if I want to use it as a plot hook.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-01, 10:31 AM
As a Paladin I'd consider what she's doing ok so long as she doesn't flat out lie.

Well, no. The loophole that "you weren't technically lying because..." does not change the fact that you're actively trying to deceive someone. I'm not saying paladins can never lie (except if their stick is big enough), but hiding behind the letter of the law to break the spirit of the law is not virtuous.

bugsysservant
2007-08-01, 10:35 AM
For most paladins, especially grey guards, you can feel free to hide your identity. But a paladin of Torm... I don't know. Does she have a good reason for acting like a swashbuckler, like infiltrating a ring of slavers? Does she do it for fun (which is chaotic anyway)? If she has a reason, I would allow it, though I would be wary of doing so because of her god, and if not, I would say she couldn't.

BelFire
2007-08-01, 11:07 AM
Hmmm....as for paladins, whenever I've played them I was taught by my DM that the rules of the code are not created by man. Man is falable (spelling?). Its your deity who desides what is and what isn't against the rules. If the PC's feel dooped, tough s***. Lol, I guess the real question is as stated before, to pick apart the lawful and good axis and see if she measures up. I know that it is not uncommon for authorities to go under cover, without magical aid. And I honostly believe that it gets easier for them (bonus to bluff checks yo). This doesn't mean that they have lost their way. It means that they are doing a horrible job because by doing so they can get an shot glass more of descency then the next guy. Some mass media examples, Jack Bauer from 24. He goes under cover because its better that he be there to save lives then anyone else. Or Jason Bourne, from the books not the movies. He went undercover and lived his lie for three years, all for the end game. Is your paladin lawful? Does she follow a set of rules, stand for order, and believe it is wholly better for everyone that that order remains? Is she good? Does she do what she does to protect people? Would she give her life to save one of the criminals she hunts? Lol, sorry, I'm babbling. Over all this is an awesome PC.

calebcom
2007-08-01, 11:47 AM
As far as any paladin I've ever played is concerned and any Paladin in any game I've ever run is concerned.


Good>Lawful


If being Lawful is going to get people killed just because it's "Honorable" My paladins will do what NEEDS to be done to see to it lives are saved and evil is stopped.

They'll always try the honorable way if they can, but if the only way to stop the BBEG who's slaughtering orphanages full of kids is to lie my way into his fortress and kill him in his sleep. I and my Paladins would do it in a heartbeat.

What's more honorable? Stopping a murderer, or letting him go because your "Honor" gets in the way.


Evil is Selfish. If your personal honor gets in the way of you saving someones life, you've just committed a very selfish and thereby evil act.




Very nice PC, I don't see why that PC needs Grey Guard though.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-01, 11:50 AM
Mmm. That's my interpretation as well, but I'd prefer to think that my paladin would fall for such an action. He's dropping the lawful for the good, but it's still showing a non-lawful bent. Such an action should be rare, and he should atone for it.

Person_Man
2007-08-01, 11:59 AM
The second is a bit simpler, and a bit more flexible. It's the simple question "What Would Superman Do?" If it's something Superman would do, it's allowed to a paladin.

Great, now I have the overwhelmingly urge to play a Paladin that can shoot lasers from his eyes.

Cleric 5/Prestige Paladin 3/Full caster progression PrC X with access to the Destruction domain (Disintegrate) and the Ocular Spell feat (so that you can store two castings of Disintegrate in your eyes).


Back on topic, keeping her true identity secret from the get go would solve the Disguise problem in most circumstances (unless someone from out of town who has seen you before visits). But you're still going to have to make constant Bluff checks in your interactions. If you fail a Diplomacy check, then the person you're talking to doesn't necessarily do what you want. But if you fail a Bluff check (which is an opposed roll, unlike Diplomacy), then the person you're talking to doesn't believe you and will usually be too suspicious to continue interacting. Certainly its do-able if you're careful about the circumstances. But it will definitely be a very roleplaying heavy game.

Wulfram
2007-08-01, 12:04 PM
I'm struggling to see the point of the swashbuckler guise. No one who's up to any serious mischief is going to confide in a Good aligned Paladin's spouse, even if she is an independent adventurer.

I'd have thought she'd be better off having a nice varied set of alter-egos who are free of ties to Paladins, and who can be easily dumped when the Code makes it necessary to break character.

MrNexx
2007-08-01, 12:06 PM
Great, now I have the overwhelmingly urge to play a Paladin that can shoot lasers from his eyes.

Cleric 5/Prestige Paladin 3/Full caster progression PrC X with access to the Destruction domain (Disintegrate) and the Ocular Spell feat (so that you can store two castings of Disintegrate in your eyes).

Try a Radiant Servant of Pelor; you get Searing Light as a SLA.

Roderick_BR
2007-08-01, 02:01 PM
"Are you a rogue?"
"No."

"Are you a paladin?"
"I'm a warrior. That's all you need to know."

"Do you follow a deity?"
"My beliefs are not in check here."

Direct responses that while are avoiding the truth, are not lies.
If he has a reason to stay undercover, a DM could allow it for RP purposes.

tannish2
2007-08-01, 02:52 PM
greygaurd turns the stick up a paladins ass from oak to a flexible plastic, and if you take more it completely removes it, or instead use paladin of freedom from unearthed arcana, then theres that whole "staff of attonement" thing that could work

AslanCross
2007-08-01, 04:51 PM
Thanks for all the responses, guys. This discussion has been very helpful. I might reconsider her being an agent of Torm, that part isn't really necessary.

This NPC was meant to be the mentor of a PC paladin of Torm whose player wanted to eventually make him a gray guard. It will be very difficult for the PCs to get her true identity as the common folk thinks she's a CG swashbuckler who is all but estranged from her husband. (She is not, in fact she goes home every night.) Mr. Paladin never lies ("She is an ally of justice" or "She is a force of mysterious righteousness."), but of course he protects her identity.

Still, as far as I can tell, the dogma of Torm's church is duty. I haven't seen more specific material that says it involves always being forthright.

RiOrius
2007-08-01, 05:33 PM
Well, no. The loophole that "you weren't technically lying because..." does not change the fact that you're actively trying to deceive someone. I'm not saying paladins can never lie (except if their stick is big enough), but hiding behind the letter of the law to break the spirit of the law is not virtuous.

I just wanted to make sure that this point was made again. Well-thought out and thorough deception is, IMHO, not mitigated if you maintain it without outright lying, in the grand scheme of things. Saying that you're not technically lying is a way to rationalize your misdeeds, and appease your conscience; it is not a way to get around the rules.

Now, that's not to say that Paladins can't lie every now and then. But to constantly act in a manner that is intended to deceive? Such a Paladin would fall in my campaign.

As for Gray Guard, by my reading the only advantage granted by the class is that the Atonements necessary to regain its powers won't cost XP (unless we're talking Gray Guard 10).

That said, I'm not saying that all deception is clearly Evil, just that it's un-Paladinish. Cops go undercover--but they're not Paladins. Superman has an alter ego--but he's not a Paladin. And, while the duty Mrs. Paladin is doing is noble and probably necessary for the greater Good, it is still not something a Paladin should be doing. Get a CG Rogue, or even a Cleric, to do the not-pure-as-the-driven-snow work. It's not befitting a Paladin.

PS: Whoever came up with the "What would Superman do?" metric clearly hasn't read this site (www.superdickery.com) (warning: mild adult language; still PG-13, IMHO).

X15lm204
2007-08-01, 05:34 PM
This is a great idea; I would love to play a PC like this. I am not a fan of the Gray Guard class - I don't like the idea of a class that exists solely to let Paladins ''get away'' with things against their code - but if she's supposed to be a mentor for a PC who wants to play one I suppose it's justified. You should stick with Torm, though: while his character at first seems the "perfect paladin, epitome of law and good" type, any of his fluff that goes deeper than that, especial that which you provided yourself, shows that he is the perfect patron for a character like this.

Belteshazzar
2007-08-01, 05:51 PM
One word Duh na nuh na nuh na nuh Batman.

Vorgen
2007-08-01, 09:41 PM
But I've always thought of Batman as the perfect example of chaotic good.

MrNexx
2007-08-01, 09:46 PM
Some say that the "Dark Knight" era Batman is more LG.

Foeofthelance
2007-08-01, 10:36 PM
I don't see anything wrong with it, even if she were a regular Paladin and not a Grey Guard. I don't recall seeing anything in the rules about Paladins having to wear full plate while beating people over the head with their faith. As long as she carries her holy symbol, and is willing to identify herself to the proper authorities, she should be alright. She can even leave the holy symbol tucked under her shirt, or if she really wants to be sneaky, have it carved into a belt decoration or button or somesuch.

Remember, in game there are no such things as class levels and class descriptions. If pressed, she can always admit to being a holy warrior or a champion of good and leave it at that. This is neither a lie, nor a mistruth. Have fun!

Pestlepup
2007-08-02, 02:51 AM
This is a bit off topic, but strangely enough, in my opinion Grey Guards have even stricter code than the average paladin. Why? Because they have to take extreme responsibility and care not to abuse the slight lenience they're given. A Grey Guard does not have the luxury of erring in judgement, since they're not only facing the Fall, but likely execution in the hands of their brethren. Not to mention the potential they have for harming innocents when circumventing the code. In order to remain pure enough to fight evil, they must tread an even more precarious path than normal paladins.

For a totally random analogy, if you were given the Death Note ,could you use it for good without succumbing to evil. :smallsmile: (Granted, you'd have to know what I'm talking about for that to make sense. :smallredface:)

Matthew
2007-08-02, 08:45 PM
The second is a bit simpler, and a bit more flexible. It's the simple question "What Would Superman Do?" If it's something Superman would do, it's allowed to a paladin.

Heh, heh. I use the lesser known "What would Hercules do?" (The Legendary Journeys version).

KIDS
2007-08-03, 06:57 PM
Of course this is completely fine; I'm quite sick of the above described "holier than thou metal cans with evilometers" stereotypes and this one, while remaining holy and etc etc., is a welcome example of a change.

Renegade Paladin
2007-08-03, 11:13 PM
You should stick with Torm, though: while his character at first seems the "perfect paladin, epitome of law and good" type, any of his fluff that goes deeper than that, especial that which you provided yourself, shows that he is the perfect patron for a character like this.
"If Torm the True told you I'm guilty of breaking some cosmic law, you'd be fools not to believe him. He can't lie, the dolt, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to get you to believe otherwise." -- Cyric, responding to charges levied against him by Torm in the court of Cynosure, in the novel Prince of Lies.

Torm is, by nature of his portfolio, personally incapable of committing deception. I can't see him being too thrilled about this.

MrNexx
2007-08-04, 08:42 AM
"If Torm the True told you I'm guilty of breaking some cosmic law, you'd be fools not to believe him. He can't lie, the dolt, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to get you to believe otherwise." -- Cyric, responding to charges levied against him by Torm in the court of Cynosure, in the novel Prince of Lies.

Torm is, by nature of his portfolio, personally incapable of committing deception. I can't see him being too thrilled about this.

I quoted a bit earlier saying that Torm is, indeed, sometimes supportive of these actions.

qube
2007-08-04, 12:15 PM
a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.quite simple: does she still act with honer? would a (good) RL priest lie about who or what he is?

I'dd say she could bend the truth a little about who she is, if its for a good cause, but otherwise she shouldn't lie.

NPC: Who are you?
paladin: Yust someone who's willing to help ...

if, on the otherhand someone asks for her real identity, she should come forth and say she's a paladin.

MrNexx
2007-08-04, 02:40 PM
NPC: Who are you?
paladin: Yust someone who's willing to help ...


NPC: Who are you?
Paladin: No one of consequence.
NPC: I must know.
Paladin: Get used to disappointment.

IOW, I'm not going to tell you a lie, but I'm also going to refuse the truth.

(And no, I'm not suggesting Wesley was a paladin, but the quote come to me)

Freshmeat
2007-08-05, 11:21 AM
edit: [ignore this message] too short

SolkaTruesilver
2007-08-05, 12:45 PM
I was considering having a Bard/Paladin (only 2 levels of paladin) in our game. We are fighting cultists of demons, and I was considering being the infiltrator.

The problem is, even if I don't do anything *evil* while infiltrating the bad guys' organisation, is it considered falling-worthy to lie in order to accomplish the job? Like, lying about by beliefs (yhea, Bamophet is the badass around. We really should try to get him rule the world), decisions of actions (Yhea. Raping these girls sounds nice!), and the such?

Even if:

1- He is actively trying to make the cult fail in their attemps
2- He will actually do anything to save peoples if he can (even if he lied about it previously)

Kurald Galain
2007-08-05, 12:57 PM
IOW, I'm not going to tell you a lie, but I'm also going to refuse the truth.

Marge: Homer! Where are you going?
Homer: Awww, I'm not going to lie to you, Marge...
(Homer runs off)

MrNexx
2007-08-05, 01:13 PM
I was considering having a Bard/Paladin (only 2 levels of paladin) in our game. We are fighting cultists of demons, and I was considering being the infiltrator.

The problem is, even if I don't do anything *evil* while infiltrating the bad guys' organisation, is it considered falling-worthy to lie in order to accomplish the job? Like, lying about by beliefs (yhea, Bamophet is the badass around. We really should try to get him rule the world), decisions of actions (Yhea. Raping these girls sounds nice!), and the such?

Even if:

1- He is actively trying to make the cult fail in their attemps
2- He will actually do anything to save peoples if he can (even if he lied about it previously)

That's very not-paladin. He could infiltrate. I would say that him lying would be a chaotic act, which would threaten his paladinhood. And the actions are going to lose him his shiny armor permanently.

In the book The Heir Apparent, by Joel Rosenberg, one of the characters (not the least bit paladin) infiltrates a group of slavers, with the purpose of killing the leader. He purposefully makes himself a horrible shot in practice, so he doesn't get the "privilege" of raping the local girls they have penned up in one of the huts; it doesn't help the girls, but him trying to help the girls would get him and not help them any.

When asked questions about things, he delibrately lies, but he also does a lot of misleading counter-questions... when asked what boat he wants to be on, instead of answering "Yours" to the guy he's going to kill, he asks where the food will be better... a natural question for a mercenary, and one that disarms the opponent.

A paladin in this situation would have to skate very carefully; it may be impossible.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-08-05, 01:32 PM
If their God or code tells them to, yes.

Wait... can a god tell their Paladins to fail...

Fawsto
2007-08-05, 09:10 PM
Btw, I believe that that kind of Ms. Paladin can work even without the Grey Guard (Yergh!) Crap, I mean, Prestige Class.

The only problem someone would see is the fact of the Lie. So thereby I post my statement, not every Lie is evil, not every Lie is Chaotic, some Lies are necessary, Some lies save good people's asses often.

Paladin Lie prohibited? Crap. Is mostly Like having to say that you are a Paladin while you are sneaking inside of a evil cult. Makes no sense. A possible situation in Ms. Paladin's life.

Now, I can see many sistuations that Ms. paladin would have to lie, but if she does so to protect the good people and vanquish evil, being in a way that brings no harm to anyone, even to the bad guys, is totaly accepteble.

Ssiauhll
2007-08-05, 11:43 PM
Clark Kent lived a secret life and I think we can all agree that Mr. Kent is as LG as they come.

Josh the Aspie
2007-08-06, 12:28 AM
I think your concept needs a bit of adjustment, but the end goal you're looking for is doable.

It is against a Paladin's code to lie. Breaking their code continually would cause them to fall.

I think the parts of your concept that are rubbing people the wrong way are the fact that she's giving people the impression, specifically, that she's CG, and they assume she may be lying to do so. Then there's also the 'spy about town maid'.

Personally, just having someone out and around town that seeks out and reports back on gossip is fine. Having a lying, cheating person who dishonestly goes after the information is not.

However, from the discussions a lot of people have been having here, and the 'assumptions' people make about paladins, just have her do things that adhear to the paladin code that people don't think of as being lawful or paladiny. Have her go out on the town, get soused, wear revealing clothes, hang out with bards, and generally have a somewhat insulting sense of humor to people she doesn't like.

If her marriage vow said she'd be faithful to her spouse, but not forsake others, and she discussed it with her husband and got his consent to do so, she could even sleep with various dashing young men as a part of her activities.

Some forms of deception are well within a Paladin's code.

Acting on information given by a turn coat of an opposing army, the paladin general leaves some troops to give the impression that his defenses are still manning the west wall in force, while putting much of his force behind the east wall so that when the forces come up through the drainage grate, his forces are ready to pounce on them and slaughter them.

Deception is involved, but he did not lie. He just used strategy and allowed the enemy to make a deadly assumption.

By the same token, there are stereotypes, positive and negative, about paladins and monks. A monk or a paladin can be a drunkan filandering braggart just as much as any other class can.

Someone I know from our local RPGA chapter once played a Paladin who, rather than walking old ladies across the streets, demanded they return to their homes... and then went out of his way to make sure the venerated elder had everything she needed. He also slept around because, as a hero, and a prime example of his race, it was his duty to uplift the people by having as many children as he could.

As an example of the last, I once played a rogue ranger who was a reserve scout for the dwarvish army, and who had ranks in craft locksmithing, and craft clockwork. He didn't steal, and he didn't cheat, he drank, but not to excess, and the law and community were everything to him. I only mention that he was lawful because I've run into people that think you can't have an LG rogue.

The definitions of law and order that people use, as well as their interpretation of the paladin class are FAR to narrow.