Would this be non-good or evil?

[Jon_Dahl]

In my campaign, sahuagins have been raiding the coastline and sinking ships extensively during the past six months or so. Now the players have decided to do something about it.

Sahuagins are lawful evil and religious. An NPC ally, "the Sage of the Seventeen Seas", will suggest the following idea to the PCs:
"Two weeks from now, the Sahuagin will have an important religious fest where they attempt to please their god with blood and violence. Brutal ceremonial duels are an important part of this fest with plenty of blood sacrifices. Several years ago, I learned how these ceremonies work.

The idea is that you contact (via Sending spell) a notorious sahuagin high priest, whose name I know. I can describe him in some detail so you can use a spell to contact him. You have to say the special 'fighting words' of the Sahuagin: 'Test your courage I will, you mackerel, consider thyself challenged' and then tell the name of the fest, a well-know beach and mention the word "midnight".

When they arrive at the beach, most likely you will be subjected to horrible rites and any mistake will cause dozens or hundreds of Sahuagin to attack you. But if you succeed, you can kill of their champion and demoralize them, because they don't believe that can be defeated. Sahuagin will not break their word if you follow the rules of the ceremony and duel."

In the ceremony, the PCs (three 9th-level PCs and one 11th-level PC) will face two hundred sahuagin warriors, clerics and wizards. The PCs will have do all kinds of awful things like drink the blood of an aquatic elf (but the origin of the blood will be unknown), swear to follow the rules and not cause any dishonor to Sekolah (LE deity) and if any of the PCs die, the body will be eaten by the sahuagin on the spot. The PCs will not be forced to kill anyone, since the Sekolah clerics will be happy to ritually murder all sahuagins that lose their fights.

If the PCs do as they are told and they defeat the champions, the "sea devils" will be shocked and in awe and keep quiet for a few months, during which time the aquatic elves and humans will be able organize resistance and gather their forces to defeat the sahuagin.

If this ok? Would this cause a paladin to fall?

[tyckspoon]

It's probably not good, considering the source of what your PCs will be asked to do, but as you've outlined it so far I don't think it's unacceptable. Your Paladin will probably find the swearing part highly distasteful, but unless the gods in your world have a No Others Before Me policy I think it's ok (that is, as long as the oath only applies to the duration of and conduct related to the ritual combats. Swearing to obey Sekolah's rules for life should be obviously unacceptable to Good characters in general, and especially to any Clerics/Paladins/other divinely-associated characters.)

As long as the things they're asked to do in the ceremonies don't involve personally wilful involvement in evil acts (ie, not just partaking of the ceremonial blood being shared to everybody, especially when they don't know the actual source of the blood, but something like.. I don't know, being asked to personally sacrifice an innocent life to bless the games.) If they would be asked to personally participate in clear evil, the Paladin would have to refuse and find a way to deal with the consequences of that or not swear into the combat at all and then find a different way to assist the rest of the party without violating the terms of the games and getting them all killed.

[tedcahill2]

In my campaign, sahuagins have been raiding the coastline and sinking ships extensively during the past six months or so. Now the players have decided to do something about it.

Sahuagins are lawful evil and religious. An NPC ally, "the Sage of the Seventeen Seas", will suggest the following idea to the PCs:
"Two weeks from now, the Sahuagin will have an important religious fest where they attempt to please their god with blood and violence. Brutal ceremonial duels are an important part of this fest with plenty of blood sacrifices. Several years ago, I learned how these ceremonies work.

The idea is that you contact (via Sending spell) a notorious sahuagin high priest, whose name I know. I can describe him in some detail so you can use a spell to contact him. You have to say the special 'fighting words' of the Sahuagin: 'Test your courage I will, you mackerel, consider thyself challenged' and then tell the name of fest, a well-know beach and mention the word "midnight".

When they arrive at the beach, most likely you will be subjected to horrible rites and any mistake will cause dozens or hundreds of Sahuagin to attack you. But if you succeed, you can kill of their champion and demoralize them, because they don't believe that can be defeated. Sahuagin will not break their word if you follow the rules of the ceremony and duel."

In the ceremony, the PCs (three 9th-level PCs and one 11th-level PC) will face two hundred sahuagin warriors, clerics and wizards. The PCs will have do all kinds of awful things like drink the blood of an aquatic elf (but the origin of the blood will be unknown), swear to follow the rules and not cause any dishonor to Sekolah (LE deity) and if any of the PCs die, the body will be eaten by the sahuagin on the spot. The PCs will not be forced to kill anyone, since the Sekolah clerics will be happy to ritually murder all sahuagins that lose their fights.

If the PCs do as they are told and they defeat the champions, the "sea devils" will be shocked and in awe and keep quiet for a few months, during which time the aquatic elves and humans will be able organize resistance and gather their forces to defeat the sahuagin.

If this ok? Would this cause a paladin to fall?

I think it would be an evil act to drink the blood of a sentient race. I mean, maybe if the blood was provided willingly that would be a different story, but come on, their not going to provide it willingly.

[Jon_Dahl]

I think it would be an evil act to drink the blood of a sentient race. I mean, maybe if the blood was provided willingly that would be a different story, but come on, their not going to provide it willingly.

So they should insist on knowing what the blood is? If they just drink it, the paladin falls, right?

[Inevitability]

I think it would be an evil act to drink the blood of a sentient race. I mean, maybe if the blood was provided willingly that would be a different story, but come on, their not going to provide it willingly.

Where does it say that? The closest rule I could find was in the BoED, which says that 'killing a good creature in order to harvest its parts or organs is an evil act'. This is obviously not the case here (the PCs aren't the ones doing the killing, for one).

Drinking a sentient creature's blood is just gross, not evil. It'd be a different story if the PCs killed the elf themselves, but they didn't.


So they should insist on knowing what the blood is? If they just drink it, the paladin falls, right?

For the love of Wee Jas, don't do this. Making the paladin fall for something he isn't aware of isn't just rude to the player, it's boring fluff-wise. It's up there with placing a magic trap of Deathwatch in the floor and claiming the paladin falls by accidentally activating it.

"You fall because you're not doing what I think you should do." is bad GMing.

[tedcahill2]

So they should insist on knowing what the blood is? If they just drink it, the paladin falls, right?

I think that if he has no idea what it is, and they simply thrust the cup onto him and he drinks it only to realize after he drinks that it was blood, then that wouldn't cause the paladin to fall.

If he knowingly drinks the blood of a sentient creature, he would fall.

If you want to go that route, where he unknowingly drinks blood, it could be some sort of blood tea with an infusion of dark magic, that way you can describe the smell, appearance and taste as something other than blood. Then only after the fact do they come around a corner (or something) and see aquatic elves strung upside down with their blood dripping into the same cup they just drank from.

[tedcahill2]

Where does it say that? The closest rule I could find was in the BoED, which says that 'killing a good creature in order to harvest its parts or organs is an evil act'. This is obviously not the case here (the PCs aren't the ones doing the killing, for one).
I think this can be argued two ways. Yes the Paladin isn't killing anyone, which is for sure an evil act. If he is aware that someone was murdered to obtain the blood, and he drinks it, that could also be considered evil. Not as evil, but still evil.

On the other hand, maybe it's not. Maybe a few hail Marys and a donation to the church would be enough to clear the paladin's conscience.

[Jon_Dahl]

For the love of Wee Jas, don't do this. Making the paladin fall for something he isn't aware of isn't just rude to the player, it's boring fluff-wise. It's up there with placing a magic trap of Deathwatch in the floor and claiming the paladin falls by accidentally activating it.

"You fall because you're not doing what I think you should do." is bad GMing.

I completely agree with you. I was just trying to understand his point.

[Inevitability]

I think this can be argued two ways. Yes the Paladin isn't killing anyone, which is for sure an evil act. If he is aware that someone was murdered to obtain the blood, and he drinks it, that could also be considered evil. Not as evil, but still evil.

I agree completely, though I'd like to specifically stress that if the paladin just takes the blood and chugs it, he shouldn't fall. Consuming blood honestly does not have to be that suspicious: tons of cultures do it.

[denthor]

Is this is your own creation?

Yes it is evil have it changed slightly have the party represent and fight for the paladin god against any that would willingly chose to fight as a champion of theirs.

This makes it a test of faith in good vs evil. Have the sea monster drink from the cup to prove that they are righteous an dedicated offer the cup to any who would dare drink.

If the paladin chooses to willing drink he gets to do so after witnessing them he falls he can see it is some kind of blood.
D&D is about choices especially for paladins. After all if the party finds shallow Graves a paladin can choose not to disturb the dead an not loot the bodies an still fail to have his companions follow suit. Or he can join take the loot an be no better.

[Inevitability]

If the paladin chooses to willing drink he gets to do so after witnessing them he falls he can see it is some kind of blood.

Explain where it says drinking blood that may very well be animal in origin is evil, please.

[Karl Aegis]

Sounds like this part of the ritual should be associated with Law, so the blood should be blessed into Axiomatic blood for you. Even if it's unholy blood you really shouldn't take damage or lose faith or anything. Making the blood unholy is another thing because you would use a Transmutation [Evil] spell to make it.

If you aren't drinking magically enhanced blood call those guys out on their crap. Demand their esoteric ritual beverages to be sanctified. Drinking non-sanctified blood is just weird like the guys who insist you must drink clam and tomato cocktails with beef jerky.

[Jon_Dahl]

Sounds like this part of the ritual should be associated with Law, so the blood should be blessed into Axiomatic blood for you. Even if it's unholy blood you really shouldn't take damage or lose faith or anything. Making the blood unholy is another thing because you would use a Transmutation [Evil] spell to make it.

If you aren't drinking magically enhanced blood call those guys out on their crap. Demand their esoteric ritual beverages to be sanctified. Drinking non-sanctified blood is just weird like the guys who insist you must drink clam and tomato cocktails with beef jerky.

Seems legit, but they will charge 30 gp for that.

[Karl Aegis]

Seems legit, but they will charge 30 gp for that.

Okay, not killing the vile monsters that use a festival as a money-making scheme might make your paladin fall. If they weren't there exclusively to kill some of these guys they might break the "associate with evil creatures" clause here. They're bringing the drinks AND forcing you to pay for them? I don't know how you can get much eviler. Truly, these are vile creatures indeed.

[tedcahill2]

Explain where it says drinking blood that may very well be animal in origin is evil, please.

There are a lot of things that the books don't come right out and say is an evil act. That's why we're having this discussion isn't it?

[Gildedragon]

So no judgement but keep this in mind:
Don't make the paladin fall with a gotcha or build the paladin falling into the plot.
Just don't.
If it worries you: take the blood drinking out of the thing. Heck make it a snub from the Sags to the PCs... With a Kn Local or Religion or a Sense Motive check to realize that they're being insulted.

[Jon_Dahl]

Okay, not killing the vile monsters that use a festival as a money-making scheme might make your paladin fall. If they weren't there exclusively to kill some of these guys they might break the "associate with evil creatures" clause here. They're bringing the drinks AND forcing you to pay for them? I don't know how you can get much eviler. Truly, these are vile creatures indeed.

Thank you. I find the idea that 30 gp spellcasting fee can be the key between a scenario where a 9th-level paladin falls and a scenario where said paladin does not fall intriguing.

[Waker]

I see nothing wrong with this at all. As stated, there are cultures that place significance in acts of drinking blood and consuming flesh (or proxies), so I doubt the act would be all that strange coming from a race of sharkish people. The only way it could be evil is if the Paladin knew in advance it was from a slain Sea Elf and even then I would put it as more of a grey area, since the character didn't participate in the killing at all. Extremely distasteful and nauseating? Sure. Falling from grace? No.

[Keltest]

I don't think a paladin would fall, exactly, but I feel like he would be having some sort of seizure or attack when he starts messing with the evil ritual blood juice. Unholy water and paladins don't mix. Otherwise, "beating up the champion of an enemy army in ritual combat for the protection of others" is right up a paladin's alley.

[John Longarrow]

The religious in your party should, rightfully, decline to take part in any aspect of the ceremony that would violate their beliefs.
The sahuagins, being highly religious, would not only accept this fact, the party would gain respect in their eyes for not abandoning faith.

Let the Paladin swear by their own God, as is proper, to adhere to the rules of combat.

No need to drink blood or involve themselves in rituals that are against their beliefs. Doing so would should dishonor in the eyes of the sahuagins.

[Inevitability]

There are a lot of things that the books don't come right out and say is an evil act. That's why we're having this discussion isn't it?

I don't think a discussion is needed here at all. Drinking blood you don't know the origin of is morally not any different from eating a cheap tavern's 'meat stew of the day', and I've never seen anyone suggest the second is evil.

[ATHATH]

Honestly, I think that even if the Paladin knew where the blood came from, he wouldn't fall. The elf's already dead; not drinking its blood isn't going to help anything. Heck, even if the blood was unholy "water", I don't think he'd fall. It might even be a Good act, seeing as the Paladin is enduring extreme pain (as someone mentioned above, unholy water and Paladins don't mix) for the sake of saving others.

[ATHATH]

Who is the Paladin's deity? Even if they think that some of this stuff is technically Evil, they might decide to give the Paladin a "free pass" (which might be paid for by doing some community service projects later or something) due to the circumstances.

[Jon_Dahl]

Who is the Paladin's deity? Even if they think that some of this stuff is technically Evil, they might decide to give the Paladin a "free pass" (which might be paid for by doing some community service projects later or something) due to the circumstances.

Pelor, paladin's deity is Pelor (10 characters).

[Telonius]

My 2cp: drinking the blood wouldn't cause him to fall. If anything it's a Chaotic act, not an Evil one. (Drinking it would not inflict injury on anyone or disrespect life). As a one-time action, yeah, it's gross; but it isn't enough to flip his alignment.

The oath would be a bit trickier to handle, but he's holding to the letter of the vow. He doesn't mean to dishonor Sekolah (who he probably thinks has very little honor anyway), he intends to defeat Sekolah in honorable combat.

[PaucaTerrorem]

For the Pally I can see this as a good entry into Grey Guard. Knowingly doing something wrong for the greater good seem right in line.

See what the Pally does then talk to the player after the session. Get inside their head and figure out how to play it. Maybe advise them of the paths before them.

[tedcahill2]

I don't think a discussion is needed here at all. Drinking blood you don't know the origin of is morally not any different from eating a cheap tavern's 'meat stew of the day', and I've never seen anyone suggest the second is evil.

I agree, I said it would only be evil if they knew someone was murdered to get it. Even if they found out later that was the case, I would say it's only evil if they knew prior to drinking it, and still chose to drink it.