Psionic VS (Arcane) Magic: Spy World

[Xar Zarath]

So if say magic/psionics were real in real life, which would be better in terms of espionage/secrecy and quiet takeover plots? Psionics or (Arcane) Magic, no Divine spells/magic?

Which system would be best to subvert say for example a world class spy org like the CIA or even to takeover our dear Playground and run it from the shadows?

[flappeercraft]

The advantage on psionics is the fact that there are no verbal or somatic components meaning you can use it without doing anything that can be seen which can be replicated on arcane magic but through metamagic.

The advantage of Arcane magic is that it is more extense, more classes that use it, more spells by a longshot than there are powers and in general more variety on what there is.

So lets take the good and the bad apart on each system

Arcane:
Advantage
1. More arcane spells than powers by a longshot (CM and CA are basically all purely dedicated to only arcane, plus all other books have at least something for arcanes and also a lot of gems like SpC or PHB2, meanwhile for psionics CP and XPH with a small amount of books having some additional powers)
2. Lots of exclusive and useful spells. (Ex. Chain of eyes, Glibness)
3. Many more classes and PrC's that use Arcane
4. Metamagic>Metapsionics, although less relevant to what is being discussed depending on the situation it might take weight
5. Epic Magic (IIRC there is no Epic Magic equivalent of psionics but I might be wrong)

Disadvantage
1. Most can be seen if cast in plain sight (Can be solved through Still Spell, Whispercast from LoM or Sleight of hand use from RoS)
2. Most can be heard if cast on public (Can be solved through Silent Spell or Whispercast from LoM)

Psionics:
Advantage
1. Augmenting powers, although less relevant due to what is included here
2. Power Points system
3. Mental action to use
4. Metafaculty

Disadvantage
1. Not as extensive of a list (Can be solved through StP Erudite)
2. Not as much exclusive powers (No solution)

This is basically what I was able to find, probably missed some stuff

[ryu]

So if say magic/psionics were real in real life, which would be better in terms of espionage/secrecy and quiet takeover plots? Psionics or (Arcane) Magic, no Divine spells/magic?

Which system would be best to subvert say for example a world class spy org like the CIA or even to takeover our dear Playground and run it from the shadows?

Assuming no access to each other's bag of tricks? Arcane has ice assassin, mind rape, and by combining the two the ability to learn the entire mind of any person desired followed by swiftly replacing them with perfect imitation replicas all loyal to the original caster. That's a damn hard trick to top in the subversion game. It also has other nightmarishly competent tricks.

[Gildedragon]

A con against arcane:
Spell Components
One could just take eschew components feat, but otherwise some of the stuff can get tricky.

[ryu]

A con against arcane:
Spell Components
One could just take eschew components feat, but otherwise some of the stuff can get tricky.

I mean.... I can be invisible, inaudible, intangible, AND freedom of movement at the same time if necessary. What exactly is supposed to be the problem with requiring a spell component pouch when they literally cost one gold and can be bought in mass quantity because of it?

[Gildedragon]

I mean.... I can be invisible, inaudible, intangible, AND freedom of movement at the same time if necessary. What exactly is supposed to be the problem with requiring a spell component pouch when they literally cost one gold and can be bought in mass quantity because of it?

one is assuming the casting not the economics are what's ported over. That's a different sort of magic. Far realms magic.

Thus I assume that the components need to be got individually.
it is all easily solved with eschew materials. Mayhap a suboptimal feat but I'd rather not be risking rabies or digging around a bag full of bat poop.

For real world domination I suspect the bard list might have it in the bag: glibness

[ryu]

one is assuming the casting not the economics are what's ported over. That's a different sort of magic. Far realms magic.

Thus I assume that the components need to be got individually.
it is all easily solved with eschew materials. Mayhap a suboptimal feat but I'd rather not be risking rabies or digging around a bag full of bat poop.

For real world domination I suspect the bard list might have it in the bag: glibness

That feat is no longer suboptimal in a world where the DM houserules how material components work. At that point it is necessary and assumed. Also no. Nothing in the bard list compares to psions or wizards.

[Calthropstu]

The biggest spell in the psion subterfuge arsenal is true mind switch. There's nothing more catastrophic to an enemy camp than having their leaders suddenly become secret enemies. Charge in, acting as an assassin... get to the target, true mind switch, then decerberate your old body.

It suddenly goes on life support because they want to question "you."
You now ARE the command structure.

Does not top ice assassin + mindrape, but comes close.

[Xar Zarath]

Assuming no access to each other's bag of tricks? Arcane has ice assassin, mind rape, and by combining the two the ability to learn the entire mind of any person desired followed by swiftly replacing them with perfect imitation replicas all loyal to the original caster. That's a damn hard trick to top in the subversion game. It also has other nightmarishly competent tricks.

Hmm...no access to each other's tricks. Wouldn't want to break it any further now would we?


The biggest spell in the psion subterfuge arsenal is true mind switch. There's nothing more catastrophic to an enemy camp than having their leaders suddenly become secret enemies. Charge in, acting as an assassin... get to the target, true mind switch, then decerberate your old body.

It suddenly goes on life support because they want to question "you."
You now ARE the command structure.

Does not top ice assassin + mindrape, but comes close.

Well, there was Life Force Exchange in 2nd. Necromancy spell and did the whole permanent mind switch thing but it was necromancy so your "soul" goes into the opponent and vice versa. Then there's of course magic jar for temp work.

Pathfinder has some great stuff from their Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Intrigue. There's a spell in UM known as Malicious Spite. Basically make target hate someone so much all they do is plot and strive to hurt that person real bad until they die.

[ryu]

Hmm...no access to each other's tricks. Wouldn't want to break it any further now would we?



Well, there was Life Force Exchange in 2nd. Necromancy spell and did the whole permanent mind switch thing but it was necromancy so your "soul" goes into the opponent and vice versa. Then there's of course magic jar for temp work.

Pathfinder has some great stuff from their Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Intrigue. There's a spell in UM known as Malicious Spite. Basically make target hate someone so much all they do is plot and strive to hurt that person real bad until they die.

I mean if both sides start filching tricks this is gonna get really minor in terms of differences real fast.

[DrMartin]

The biggest spell in the psion subterfuge arsenal is true mind switch. There's nothing more catastrophic to an enemy camp than having their leaders suddenly become secret enemies. Charge in, acting as an assassin... get to the target, true mind switch, then decerberate your old body.

It suddenly goes on life support because they want to question "you."
You now ARE the command structure.

Does not top ice assassin + mindrape, but comes close.

I would argue that in this scenario Mind Seed is even more destabilizing than true mind switch. Now everybody is you :smallbiggrin:

Clairovoyant sense, Object Reading and Sensitivity to Psychic Impression open up a lot more information gathering than comparable 2nd level arcane divinations, if that is a factor.

If considering the whole arsenal though, I agree that spells like Ice Assassin, Mindrape and PaO will win the race

[fire_insideout]

Arcane has Geneis with the time trait, so wizards have infinite time to figure out countermeasures and devise operations. I'd say that's a pretty hefty advantage.

[The_Jette]

I would argue that in this scenario Mind Seed is even more destabilizing than true mind switch. Now everybody is you :smallbiggrin:

Okay, Agent Smith, you need to calm down for a bit...

[Psyren]

Putting TO aside, Psionics has the edge with divinations (particularly since theirs don't need to involve outsiders with politics/agendas of their own) while Arcane has the edge with illusions and conjurations. Psionics inherent lack of components also gives them a small edge in social situations.

[ryu]

Putting TO aside, Psionics has the edge with divinations (particularly since theirs don't need to involve outsiders with politics/agendas of their own) while Arcane has the edge with illusions and conjurations. Psionics inherent lack of components also gives them a small edge in social situations.

I mean what even is the point of this comparison if you're disallowing the best tricks? That's basically ceding that arcane is so far better than psionic it's obvious and that we should disallow such in an attempt to make this supposedly equal opportunity comparison of means ''fair'' when the two quite clearly have noticeably different levels of power here.

[Psyren]

I mean what even is the point of this comparison if you're disallowing the best tricks? That's basically ceding that arcane is so far better than psionic it's obvious and that we should disallow such in an attempt to make this supposedly equal opportunity comparison of means ''fair'' when the two quite clearly have noticeably different levels of power here.

Of course arcane has a higher ceiling :smallconfused: It's the most supported magic system in the game, with the largest quantity of material and therefore the most potential for unbalanced interactions to slip through development. That's obvious to the point of banality.

All psionics can do to compete is to steal all of arcane's tricks, which Tippy demonstrated. But I don't find such things to be interesting or typical.

[Segev]

Lead sheeting just became mandatory for construction of secure rooms. (Blocks scrying)

Charm effects make social engineering breeches far more hazardous. The need to be observant of protocol to the point of being a jerk even to your closest friends and most neighborly coworkers skyrockets. Secure facilities already have "no tailgating" policies, requiring you to observe everybody badge in if you're holding the door for them, and not to allow anybody to come in with you if they can't badge in. Even if they're friends and you know and trust them. This becomes all the more important when that person you know and trust might only be such because you've been charmed.

Suggestion effects mean you also have to get to the point where "it's just a silly inconvenient rule" isn't a valid suggestion to give. It has to be as unreasonable as if they were suggesting you walk through East St. Louis wearing expensive jewelry and screaming taunting racial slurs at everybody you pass.

And that's not even getting into the havoc dominate could wreak.


HEck, half this stuff you wouldn't need social engineering to access facilities for; you could just charm somebody in a bar or restaurant and then suggest that they want to impress you with their knowledge and that no, that isn't something they REALLY need to keep secret. (Ideally, need-to-know would kick in, but with magic...)

Legend lore and metafaculty would both allow you to get all the information you need to manipulate a target who has access you want, and would also potentially get you loads of secret information on its own.

Assuming it fools cameras (which is a good assumption, I think), disguise self can let you impersonate people, too, during infiltrations.


Counter-espionage now requires lots of dispel magic, making all your badge IDs have protection from chaos on them (you want Chaos in this case because you're a generally lawful organization and you may not always be being particularly good or evil), and much heavier training in people-reading so that your people can make those Sense Motive rolls to detect mind control.

Like I said, lead becomes a prominent architectural feature in any secured room.

Delay teleport is common in any area where people might want to spring a surprise attack, as well.

[ryu]

Of course arcane has a higher ceiling :smallconfused: It's the most supported magic system in the game, with the largest quantity of material and therefore the most potential for unbalanced interactions to slip through development. That's obvious to the point of banality.

All psionics can do to compete is to steal all of arcane's tricks, which Tippy demonstrated. But I don't find such things to be interesting or typical.

Was that not literally the premise question of the thread?

[Zanos]

All psionics can do to compete is to steal all of arcane's tricks, which Tippy demonstrated. But I don't find such things to be interesting or typical.
To be fair, psionics can actually steal all of everyone's tricks, and use them better than them by stacking its own tricks on top of that.

I don't think component suppression is a small advantage though, you're going to be casting spells at +1/+2 with silent and still to be able to get that same effect, and being able to cast an undetected charm is going to make psionic infiltrators quite a bit more valuable. Magic seems cool but waving your arms and muttering a bunch of stuff in dead and non-existent language and then someone starts acting real friendly to you is super obvious. They probably won't assume that you're magical, but they'll know something is going on, especially when a lot of people in this profession probably have skill focus(sense motive).

[Psyren]

Was that not literally the premise question of the thread?

Depends on the optimization level, hence my answer. If PO, each has their strengths and weaknesses, with arcane having more toys overall. If TO, it really doesn't matter because each can plunder the other.

[lord_khaine]

Arcane has Geneis with the time trait, so wizards have infinite time to figure out countermeasures and devise operations. I'd say that's a pretty hefty advantage.

No it does not. You cant change the time trait in the most recent version of genesis.

[Xar Zarath]

Depends on the optimization level, hence my answer. If PO, each has their strengths and weaknesses, with arcane having more toys overall. If TO, it really doesn't matter because each can plunder the other.

For the thread I did have PO in mind more than TO. Because once TO, it all becomes moot and everyone might as well as StP Erudites.

Thread wise, the implications of Divination spells could have far reaching consequences for intelligence gathering. How do you stop someone from scrying you, if you already have a dossier on them. Lead is useful but even then it could still be relatively useless if, no one knew about the spy having actual magic.

Vision spells could also break the spy game. But what and how would Vision spells be best utilised?