Womb of the Earth: an obscure spell with abuse potential?

[Jowgen]

Womb of the Earth is a 1st level cleric spell from Dragon 279 p. 35. It's Transmutation, casting time of 15 minutes, Range of Close, an Area of 15 ft burst +10 ft/level, with an Instantaneous (D) duration. The text is as follows:


This spell transform a wilderness area of light vegetation, like a natural clearing or the site of a recent forest fire, into a patch of ground ready for cultivation that enables food plants to grow to harvest maturity in 24 hours. Plants and animals currently inhabiting the site are not harmed or destroyed; both simply move to the edges of the new field. The speall clears furrows in the ground and fertilizes in a manner best suited to the type of seed specified by the caster. Farmers must still tend the garden as it grows, removing weeds and pests.
Residual magic lingers in the patch of ground. Within 24 hours after the food plants are harvested, the surrounding plants and animals retake the land. No sign remains that the ground was ever cultivated. The spell cannot be cast on densely forested areas, nor on places cleared of trees by farmers or others acting on their behalf.

Being able to grow any type of "food plant" within the area to harvesting maturity in a mere day seems like it could be quite useful beyond just producing food for people. Thoughts anyone?:smallconfused:

[GilesTheCleric]

I rated it red (below average) and said this about it: "Grows crops in a scaling area to maturity in 24 hours. Way better than Control Weather."

I'm sure you could find some highly valuable crops tucked away somewhere. The best use I could see for it is that it removes vegetation -- if you want to deny an enemy the means to use Entangle near your keep, then this will do the job. There's other spells that do the same, but this one is first level.

The only other use I could think of is as a means of creating teleports to areas you've never been to before (may not work via RAW), if you have seen an area of this spell in action before. Alternatively, it could allow for you to close off teleportation to a specific spot -- either use it yourself to allow you to teleport into an area for 24 hours, or to prevent a foe from teleporting in for 24 hours.

[Coidzor]

Well, making areas of city park so that you can deliberately use this spell as necessary is kosher as long as you don't hire farmers to do it. I can see it being used in certain Tippyverses to quickly grow something within the protective bounds of the city that can't be made with Wish or Miracle or True Creation.

[Honest Tiefling]

I could see it being used to grow oak trees, since acorns are a valuable crop and still eaten in certain cuisines. Heck, pine tar is eaten so I guess that is now a food plant. It would require a bit of finagling to assume you could harvest the wood, but it might be a nice trick at lower level.

Only other use is growing mass amounts of olives to make into oil, which might be quite useful in a siege situation alongside just eating the darn things.

[Gildedragon]

Womb of the Earth is a 1st level cleric spell from Dragon 279 p. 35. It's Transmutation, casting time of 15 minutes, Range of Close, an Area of 15 ft burst +10 ft/level, with an Instantaneous (D) duration. The text is as follows:



Being able to grow any type of "food plant" within the area to harvesting maturity in a mere day seems like it could be quite useful beyond just producing food for people. Thoughts anyone?:smallconfused:

Fey Cherry trees. Make it grow to fruit-bearing size in a day... Age it a year per casting (up to the next maturing of the fruit)

[J-H]

In game? Poppies/opium, lotus, etc. Crops used for rare dyes. Rare flowers for the queen.

Any plant with a high value per lb.

[Coidzor]

Fey Cherry trees. Make it grow to fruit-bearing size in a day... Age it a year per casting (up to the next maturing of the fruit)

Oh, yeah, that would do it.

[Vizzerdrix]

Sounds like it can force crops to grow in adverse comditions as well. Maybe grow rare spices, or rice in a desert.

[Solaris]

I could see it being used to grow oak trees, since acorns are a valuable crop and still eaten in certain cuisines. Heck, pine tar is eaten so I guess that is now a food plant. It would require a bit of finagling to assume you could harvest the wood, but it might be a nice trick at lower level.

Only other use is growing mass amounts of olives to make into oil, which might be quite useful in a siege situation alongside just eating the darn things.

I was also thinking that you could use it to grow fruiting trees to make bonsai really quickly, but that would be more trolling the DM than doing anything useful.
... Not that I wouldn't pay good money to get that kind of a spell going in real life, mind. Raising baby trees is great fun in and of itself, but it's still kind of disheartening to think that I'll be in my forties or fifties by the time most of my seedlings are ready to even start training.

[Segev]

I was also thinking that you could use it to grow fruiting trees to make bonsai really quickly, but that would be more trolling the DM than doing anything useful.
... Not that I wouldn't pay good money to get that kind of a spell going in real life, mind. Raising baby trees is great fun in and of itself, but it's still kind of disheartening to think that I'll be in my forties or fifties by the time most of my seedlings are ready to even start training.

Kinda makes you jealous of elves, doesn't it?

[Solaris]

Kinda makes you jealous of elves, doesn't it?

No kidding. We're just starting to get going right when we peter out and keel over. TANJ.

As an aside, I once developed a setting wherein elves got physically weaker and ill if they got too far from a tree, and if they were in close enough proximity to a tree of sufficient size they got stronger for it. I came back to it a bit later and realized that effectively meant every elf PC was going to be into bonsai.

[Gildedragon]

No kidding. We're just starting to get going right when we peter out and keel over. TANJ.

As an aside, I once developed a setting wherein elves got physically weaker and ill if they got too far from a tree, and if they were in close enough proximity to a tree of sufficient size they got stronger for it. I came back to it a bit later and realized that effectively meant every elf PC was going to be into bonsai.

Or livewood carvings... or into acorns
Or grafting bits of trees to themselves.

[Bad Wolf]

Hmm. The spell says all plants/animals move to the edge of the spell area. If it wasn't for the casting time, I'd say you have the perfect spell to push a Paragon Legendary Tiger off a cliff.

[Jowgen]

Sounds like it can force crops to grow in adverse comditions as well. Maybe grow rare spices, or rice in a desert.

You'd have to make sure the area counts as "light vegetation" to start with, but good point.


In game? Poppies/opium, lotus, etc. Crops used for rare dyes. Rare flowers for the queen.

I think the tricky part is what qualifies as a food plant. For example, the Mertoran Leaf drug is ingested chewed/ingested; which may or may not qualify.


Fey Cherry trees. Make it grow to fruit-bearing size in a day... Age it a year per casting (up to the next maturing of the fruit)

Hmmm... considering the 3000 gp price tag on a sapling and the 10 gp/exp crafting cost reduction on these, this could potentially be ludicrously profitable. You gotta keep in mind that "While it produces blossoms every year, a fey cherry tree only creates cherries once a decade.". So the initial casting would get us from seed to 10 year old cherry in 24 hours. Even if we go with regular cherry, that's a respectable amount of magical wood and potential saplings.

Problem though, I don't see repeated castings working as is. For one, the area with the Fey Cherry might no longer count as light vegetation, but even if it does, each casting clears any currently present vegetation out to the edge. One could just move from place to place with all the Fey Cherry seeds and plant grove upon grove of the them on a daily basis though. Could actually be more efficient.

Alternatively... what would happen if we tied Womb of the Earth to a Hallow spell?

[weckar]

I could see it being used as a divination effect in an Eco-campaign to PROVE the forest was brought down by humanoid hands, and not "natural decay".

[Bronk]

Problem though, I don't see repeated castings working as is. For one, the area with the Fey Cherry might no longer count as light vegetation, but even if it does, each casting clears any currently present vegetation out to the edge. One could just move from place to place with all the Fey Cherry seeds and plant grove upon grove of the them on a daily basis though. Could actually be more efficient.


I don't think that this part would be a problem, because the second 24hr stage of the spell erases the first.

[Gildedragon]

Hmmm... considering the 3000 gp price tag on a sapling and the 10 gp/exp crafting cost reduction on these, this could potentially be ludicrously profitable. You gotta keep in mind that "While it produces blossoms every year, a fey cherry tree only creates cherries once a decade.". So the initial casting would get us from seed to 10 year old cherry in 24 hours. Even if we go with regular cherry, that's a respectable amount of magical wood and potential saplings.

Problem though, I don't see repeated castings working as is. For one, the area with the Fey Cherry might no longer count as light vegetation, but even if it does, each casting clears any currently present vegetation out to the edge. One could just move from place to place with all the Fey Cherry seeds and plant grove upon grove of the them on a daily basis though. Could actually be more efficient.

Alternatively... what would happen if we tied Womb of the Earth to a Hallow spell?

Hmmm. Yeah. It doesn't work that well with Fey Cherry trees. Though the first casting does more than 10 years' growth. It takes the tree from a fey cherry pit to a fully fruiting fey cherry tree in 24 hrs...
a quick look-see said it takes cherry trees some 7 years post planting to produce fruit. Fey cherry trees seem to be 10x slower than normal cherries so 50 to 70 years of growth with a casting is not bad. Gives one something considerably bigger than a sapling.

Problem: after the 24 hrs pass the land reverts to its uncultivated form... one needs to TP the trees out somehow.

[daremetoidareyo]

Masters of the wild has an entire subsection on infusions, and how to use profession Gardner to cultivate the proper herbs

[Jowgen]

Masters of the wild has an entire subsection on infusions, and how to use profession Gardner to cultivate the proper herbs

Had a look, and it seems like this spell single-handedly does away with the need for cultivation via the gardening mechanics described there.


Hmmm. Yeah. It doesn't work that well with Fey Cherry trees. Though the first casting does more than 10 years' growth. It takes the tree from a fey cherry pit to a fully fruiting fey cherry tree in 24 hrs...
a quick look-see said it takes cherry trees some 7 years post planting to produce fruit. Fey cherry trees seem to be 10x slower than normal cherries so 50 to 70 years of growth with a casting is not bad. Gives one something considerably bigger than a sapling.

Problem: after the 24 hrs pass the land reverts to its uncultivated form... one needs to TP the trees out somehow.

The reset only happens after harvesting. Whether this means just the cherries or also the wood itself I can't tell; but as long as one can avoid completing the harvest, there should be no problem. Even if there is one, tying the spell to a Hallow spell so that it's active throughout the area for a year seems like it could solve the issue.

I went with 10 years to first maturation because it says that is the frequency with which the tree produces fruit (despite anual flowering). I personally figure that Fey Cherries grow at roughtly the same rate as regular cherries (whom they "closely resemble") up until maturity, but then just continue to grow until reaching their max "larger than a giant sequioia" size. There really isn't much to say one way or the other RAW-wise.

Either case, I think one should be able to stack plant-growth on.

[PraxisVetli]

Seems relevant:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479663-Magical-Plants-and-Where-to-Find-them

[Solaris]

Or livewood carvings... or into acorns
Or grafting bits of trees to themselves.

Seeds, branches, and pieces of wood are not trees. They're pieces of them.
That's like pointing at a severed arm and calling it a person.

[Gildedragon]

Seeds, branches, and pieces of wood are not trees. They're pieces of them.
That's like pointing at a severed arm and calling it a person.

Livewood pieces are whole living plants though.
There's a couple other staves that are also trees throughout the books
As to being into acorns: specifically acorns of far travel

[Jowgen]

As a minor addendum to this thread, the following is what I've found to be the most efficient way to use this spell for supplying communities with food and materials.

Cast Hallow and tie Womb of the Earth to it. Now, Womb of the Earth's "spell effect lasts for one year and functions throughout the entire site, regardless of the normal duration and area or effect". All food plants of the specified type planted within the hallow area during the next year now grow to harvest maturity in 24 hours.

Into this area you plant Pomow (SoS p. 51); a hardy, climate-adaptible, spherical and high protein fruit crop, who's stalk starts to grow a new sphere as soon as the old one is plucked. As a bonus, it's stalk sprouts fibers that can be used as cotton and the rind is sturdy/sharp enough to shave with. If acquisition of starter seeds is an issue, a Basket of Delights (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030613a) can easily produce a ripe Pomow bulb.

The Pomow maxes out at 1-2 ft diameter. Assuming one gives each plant a 1 ft planting berth, you can fit 711 Pomow plants in the area, which is also how many you can harvest in a day. Going by watermelons, which are on average a bit over 1.5 ft in diameter (like the pomow), each Pomow should weigh about 8 lb. Giving a bit of leeway, that is about 8 x 700 = 5600 lb of food. The average humanoid needs 1 lb of good quality food/day, so that is the exact number of people that can be fed (not accounting for the 3 days someone can go without food without penalty). That is comfortably within the population range of a Large town or the low-end of a small city. If Plant Growth stacks on top of this, we up the production to about 7500, which is a mid-range small town.

So, with just 2 (maybe 3 spells) cast 1/year, costing 2000 gp in components for Hallow+1 (so 5.48 gp/day), we can feed a really Large Town or small-mid range Small city. Considering that the cheapest readily consumable food items in A&E cost 1 gp/lb, this is a rather significant saving. This method also takes up barely any space, requires only a minimal workforce of gardners/pest-controlers, needs no fertilizers, has no environmental impact AND provides the town with all the cotton-type fiber it could need (plus razors for personal grooming).

I personally also consider being able to magically feed (not to mention clothe) large populations without having to rely on resetting create food and water traps to be quite a nice touch (no offense to the Emperor).

[Gildedragon]

As a minor addendum to this thread, the following is what I've found to be the most efficient way to use this spell for supplying communities with food and materials.

Cast Hallow and tie Womb of the Earth to it. Now, Womb of the Earth's "spell effect lasts for one year and functions throughout the entire site, regardless of the normal duration and area or effect". All food plants of the specified type planted within the hallow area during the next year now grow to harvest maturity in 24 hours.

Into this area you plant Pomow (SoS p. 51); a hardy, climate-adaptible, spherical and high protein fruit crop, who's stalk starts to grow a new sphere as soon as the old one is plucked. As a bonus, it's stalk sprouts fibers that can be used as cotton and the rind is sturdy/sharp enough to shave with. If acquisition of starter seeds is an issue, a Basket of Delights (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030613a) can easily produce a ripe Pomow bulb.

The Pomow maxes out at 1-2 ft diameter. Assuming one gives each plant a 1 ft planting berth, you can fit 711 Pomow plants in the area, which is also how many you can harvest in a day. Going by watermelons, which are on average a bit over 1.5 ft in diameter (like the pomow), each Pomow should weigh about 8 lb. Giving a bit of leeway, that is about 8 x 700 = 5600 lb of food. The average humanoid needs 1 lb of good quality food/day, so that is the exact number of people that can be fed (not accounting for the 3 days someone can go without food without penalty). That is comfortably within the population range of a Large town or the low-end of a small city. If Plant Growth stacks on top of this, we up the production to about 7500, which is a mid-range small town.

So, with just 2 (maybe 3 spells) cast 1/year, costing 2000 gp in components for Hallow+1 (so 5.48 gp/day), we can feed a really Large Town or small-mid range Small city. Considering that the cheapest readily consumable food items in A&E cost 1 gp/lb, this is a rather significant saving. This method also takes up barely any space, requires only a minimal workforce of gardners/pest-controlers, needs no fertilizers, has no environmental impact AND provides the town with all the cotton-type fiber it could need (plus razors for personal grooming).

I personally also consider being able to magically feed (not to mention clothe) large populations without having to rely on resetting create food and water traps to be quite a nice touch (no offense to the Emperor).

This is pretty fantastic.
Slapping on a Plant Growth spell makes it even better...
Biggest hurdle is finding the clearing though.

also the Hallow spell solves a lot of the "how to get a good fey cherry tree"...
10 years per day, that makes it age 35 centuries over the course of the year (plus whatever much it needs to age to grow to fruiting maturity)...
All that's needed is a solid way to teleport the tree out.


Edit:
Wishferns!
Wish for more wishferns... go towards infinite wishes!

[Jowgen]

This is pretty fantastic.
Slapping on a Plant Growth spell makes it even better...
Biggest hurdle is finding the clearing though.

also the Hallow spell solves a lot of the "how to get a good fey cherry tree"...
10 years per day, that makes it age 35 centuries over the course of the year (plus whatever much it needs to age to grow to fruiting maturity)...
All that's needed is a solid way to teleport the tree out.


Edit:
Wishferns!
Wish for more wishferns... go towards infinite wishes!

I think the ammount of sped-up growth you can get out of a Fey-cherry depends on how long it actually takes it to get to Harvesting Maturity. After that, it'll continue to grow normally (with ideal fertilization), but that should be it. You still ought to get a pretty respectable tree though, and if it comes to it you can always grow several simultaneously (if your goal is harvesting wood or making lots of cuttings). To teleport it, the high-end option would be to make it into a stronghold (they are explcitly ideal for having stuff built into them) and enhance said stronghold with the teleporting ability from SBG. Though I'd find the Crawling one way funnier.

The Wishferns I don't see working sadly. Any attempt to coax the wish blossom to produce its blossom early or push it to produce multiple blossoms at once results in the immediate death of the plant. Pretty sure using miracle-grow magic qualifies.

[Calthropstu]

Potential abuses: Are dryad trees considered a pissible valuable crop? Mass spawn dryads ftw.
Rare spell components?
You should be able to easily spawn plant monsters that as valuable reagents... if the monsters are dangerous enough, you can protect a town with it.
Disrupt an attack with dangerous crop monsters with a first level spell? Yes please!

[Zaq]

As a minor addendum to this thread, the following is what I've found to be the most efficient way to use this spell for supplying communities with food and materials.

Cast Hallow and tie Womb of the Earth to it. Now, Womb of the Earth's "spell effect lasts for one year and functions throughout the entire site, regardless of the normal duration and area or effect". All food plants of the specified type planted within the hallow area during the next year now grow to harvest maturity in 24 hours.

Are you sure that you can put whatever spell you want into a Hallow effect? Hallow is, I admit, ambiguously written, but it kind of looks like it contains a whitelist.

If you're correct and you can just slap an arbitrary Instantaneous spell into a Hallow effect (with the "regardless of the normal duration" clause taking over), that opens some REALLY weird doors. Fireball. Teleport. Raise Dead. Fire Shuriken. Planar Familiar. Word of Recall. Genesis.

I don't think this works. If it does work, it belongs in the Dysfunctional Rules thread. (And I will note that Hallow isn't super clear about the caster of Hallow even being able to—or required to—cast the spell that's being tied to Hallow, which is itself dysfunctional.)

Granted, WotE feels like the correct duration is 24 hours anyway, since it looks like the intended effect is roughly "target area is suddenly transformed into a super-fast-growing field, and then 24 hours later, it goes back to normal." But apparently that's not RAW. Even so, the idea of Hallow being arbitrarily open is a little troubling in its implications.

[Jowgen]

Are you sure that you can put whatever spell you want into a Hallow effect? Hallow is, I admit, ambiguously written, but it kind of looks like it contains a whitelist. transformed into a super-fast-growing field, and then 24 hours later, it goes back to normal."

It's a common topic of discussion. The whitelist can't be said to be worded in an exclusive fashion, but the spell provides no guidelines on how to limit what spells are permissalbe. Trying to work from the example spells doesn't help much either, as it includes not only area spells with tangible effects, but also targeted touch spells (e.g. Aid), close-range targeted spells (e.g. cause fear) and Divinations (e.g. detect magic). Personally, I use the rule of thumb of whether the spells makes sense as an effect that would "functions throughout the entire site".

That being said, even without Hallow, you can still get the same basic effect (for feeding people) with a single Minor Schema of the spell that is activated daily (400 gp). It's just not elegant.