Challange Rating vs Party Makeup and Resources

[Axemes]

I have a question pertaining to 5e.

A friend is DMing a campaign and his party is level 3 with a level 2 NPC that is designed only to leach XP and make encounters more difficult. (Gives him more exp to spend).

Another note is the makeup is Barbarian, Bard, Druid, and a Cleric. And after already sending the party through one (deadly raw) encounter he procs them into another by throwing a black pudding at them. The adventurers only had basic cheap starting equipment. No magical items etc.

I also heard he took the max values for the monsters dice rolls because he felt the encounter immediately before wasnt challanging enough for them. (From their recount: 2 players went below 0 briefly)

Was this a bull**** move by the DM? Or no? I know next to nothing about 5e so any input I can pass along is greatly appreciated.

Edit: Cleric is a tempest cleric and the bard snd druid are brand new players I am told. And the previous deadly encounter that day was a harpy nest. For what its worth.

Campaign setting: sailing on ocean waters 90% of the time. Ocean world with little resources available.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Another note is the makeup is Barbarian, Bard, Druid, and a Cleric.

What, did they get bored after reading the first four classes in the book...? :smalltongue:


Was this a bull**** move by the DM? Or no?

Any answer to this question is going to be someone's opinion. It depends on the tone of the game, what the players enjoy, etc. etc.


I also heard he took the max values for the monsters dice rolls because he felt the encounter immediately before wasn't challenging enough for them. (From their recount: 2 players went below 0 briefly)

My opinion? Dropping half the party to 0 in an encounter indicates that it was plenty challenging enough. That's about the right outcome for an encounter billed as 'deadly' and I don't feel it's fair to go harder than that on a regular basis. Definitely not back-to-back. I mean, if you were only having one fight all day or this is a major boss, then yeah, it's okay to build encounters significantly over 'deadly' (though you should look for smarter/more entertaining ways to do that than just 'maximise the numbers'). But it sounds like this DM is using this as his baseline, which I wouldn't be happy with.

Overall, I wouldn't like to play in a game like this, and it's certainly not how I DM.

[Axemes]

What, did they get bored after reading the first four classes in the book...?

That made me chuckle, I will say the Barbarian is supposedly building 'The Scotsman' from Samurai Jack and is said to end up in monk and fighter by level 10. Just for your entertainment.


My opinion? Dropping half the party to 0 in an encounter indicates that it was plenty challenging enough. That's about the right outcome for an encounter billed as 'deadly' and I don't feel it's fair to go harder than that on a regular basis. Definitely not back-to-back. I mean, if you were only having one fight all day or this is a major boss, then yeah, it's okay to build encounters significantly over 'deadly' (though you should look for smarter/more entertaining ways to do that than just 'maximise the numbers'). But it sounds like this DM is using this as his baseline, which I wouldn't be happy with.

Overall, I wouldn't like to play in a game like this, and it's certainly not how I DM.

Thank you I greatly appreciate the input and your time.

I would also appreciate other opinions as well.

[Decstarr]

Is your friend an experienced DM? Asking because the CR always implicates the "standard" resource management, which would be between 6-8 encounters/long rest. Most parties won't have too much trouble with a "deadly" encounter if it is their first and only encounter on this adventuring day. Maybe that's why he feels it is "too easy"?

In general, the CR is something that should be regarded with a little caution at least. The way your party is set up, you probably could handle most meaty baddies that come your way, but if you faced a bunch of kobolds with crossbows in an ambushy situation, you'd prolly be pretty screwed.

In general, I'd advise you guys talk about this at your table. Find out what the DM regards as "too easy", because if someone drops to 0 HP in a fight, there can be several reasons:

1) Fight is indeed challenging
2) Stupid behavior / "clever" tricks that didn't work out so well
3) Bad rolls
4) Lack of resources
5) "Kryptonite" enemy aka hard-countering what your group can do.

If unsure about the difficulty, I can only advise to ask your DM to run test encounters before the session. This way, he can see perfectly well how much impact DICE rolls actually have and how the fights are likely to go.

[DragonBaneDM]

So if we're on the topic of Challenge Rating, remind your friend to watch out for the Defensive CR of his monsters.

The HP brackets are very broad on the Defensive CR scale, but going from median to maximum could still potentially buff things up. Try encouraging them to throw the new monster math into this website (http://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html) for a quick math check to ensure that the monster is still at it's planned Challenge. If not, the XP total of the fight could change, and that's important to keep an eye on.

Edit/Note: Remind your friend that while the 1 dot encounter planner does a great job with the information you can feed it, it doesn't have monster traits that impact Defensive and Offensive Challenge such as incorporeal or pack tactics on it.

It is my opinion that one Deadly encounter per day is a good thing. It could be an exceptionally challenging wandering monster, the boss fight, or even an optional battle that yields a really cool reward. And the cool thing about 5E is that fights go by quickly enough that you can use these intense battles as a great way to break up the usual Medium/Hard balance that the DMG suggests.

Then again, I can get planning two to four Deadly encounters as a way to make a party use all their resources in one day. It helps to make small, interesting dungeons and is helpful if you want to get the party to a new chapter's quest hub and move the plot along.

It sounds like you're not a part of this game, though. What are the opinions of his players? I've definitely gone into games solely because my friend DMing it promised me a challenging game where my character had a really high chance of death. It was just what I was looking for at the time. Maybe they signed on for a similar experience?

[Axemes]

Is your friend an experienced DM? Asking because the CR always implicates the "standard" resource management, which would be between 6-8 encounters/long rest. Most parties won't have too much trouble with a "deadly" encounter if it is their first and only encounter on this adventuring day. Maybe that's why he feels it is "too easy"?

This would be his first time I believe. He has bragged about co dming an online campaign before but I've no idea or interest in what that is. No offense to anyone here.

[Axemes]

It sounds like you're not a part of this game, though. What are the opinions of his players? I've definitely gone into games solely because my friend DMing it promised me a challenging game where my character had a really high chance of death. It was just what I was looking for at the time. Maybe they signed on for a similar experience?



They're first timers I think and from the screenshots they are not happy about it. I think that it was just the deadly monster that he chose and them having no rest between encounters that made it miserable. I'm appreciating all of the feedback. This is his first dming experience and i dont want his players to walk out on him, it may discourage him from improving and playing more. (If that makes sense. Lol?

[Axemes]

Update: will put in op as well.

Campaign Setting: ocean themed world - stuck at sea and susceptible to the random encounters for weeks on end. Apperently a few sessions where spent just in random encounters while traveling. So they're not thinking its fair that theyre stuck at sea with broken equipment. Etc.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

Everyone interprets the role of dungeon master in a different way and some DMs think their job is to kill the players. Sounds like that's what happening here. Some groups are really into playing that way but if your group isn't, you might want to have a talk together as a group about what you all want out of the game.

[Ninja_Prawn]

have a talk together as a group about what you all want out of the game.

This. The first rule of DMing is that your job is to make sure everyone is having fun. Asking people what sort of game they'd like to play is therefore a good start, as is adjusting your style in response to feedback. Perhaps your DM friend needs to be reminded of this?

This article (http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/) might help to explain things in more detail.

Also, OP, you might want to avoid double-posting. It's better to respond to multiple posts all in one go.

[Beastrolami]

it is really easy, especially with a cleric to survive 5e. dropping to 0 is almost never the end of an adventurer. When a cleric can bonus action heal for 60 ft away, or a druid can hand everyone a goodberry at the beginning of the day, it is surprisingly easy to bring a character back up, and pounce right back on an enemy before it takes out another party member. Because of this, my personal standard for combat is that it isn't challenging unless at least 1 player drops to 0.

That being said, I have a bit of experience both DMing and playing 5e, and expect challenging encounters as a player, and warn players my encounters will be challenging as a DM. However, throwing 2 new players into this is not advisable. When I advertise games on roll20, I don't say new players welcome and warn new players that they will die a lot because they don't know what they are doing.

Is the DM wrong, no. Are the players wrong, no. But, it does seem like you have a bad match for DM and players. if you DM wants to run a challenging campaign for veteran players, he shouldn't subject greenblooded newbies to that kind of horror. In that regard I guess the DM is at fault the most, however, if he warned the players this game was going to be difficult, and they still joined, they don't really have the right to complain. If they can't handle it, they should let the DM know, and leave. If they enjoy the challenge, and think they can eventually step up, and make some change in the world/kill some crazy powerful monsters, let them stay and learn as they go.

[Demonslayer666]

I would not say this is a BS move, but every encounter should not be this difficult.

If he needs help in the future designing appropriate encounters, I would highly recommend donjon.bin.sh and using the random encounter generator.

[Axemes]

it is really easy, especially with a cleric to survive 5e. dropping to 0 is almost never the end of an adventurer. When a cleric can bonus action heal for 60 ft away, or a druid can hand everyone a goodberry at the beginning of the day, it is surprisingly easy to bring a character back up, and pounce right back on an enemy before it takes out another party member. Because of this, my personal standard for combat is that it isn't challenging unless at least 1 player drops to 0.

That being said, I have a bit of experience both DMing and playing 5e, and expect challenging encounters as a player, and warn players my encounters will be challenging as a DM. However, throwing 2 new players into this is not advisable. When I advertise games on roll20, I don't say new players welcome and warn new players that they will die a lot because they don't know what they are doing.

Is the DM wrong, no. Are the players wrong, no. But, it does seem like you have a bad match for DM and players. if you DM wants to run a challenging campaign for veteran players, he shouldn't subject greenblooded newbies to that kind of horror. In that regard I guess the DM is at fault the most, however, if he warned the players this game was going to be difficult, and they still joined, they don't really have the right to complain. If they can't handle it, they should let the DM know, and leave. If they enjoy the challenge, and think they can eventually step up, and make some change in the world/kill some crazy powerful monsters, let them stay and learn as they go.

I agree with a lot of this, but I will state that the dm took average damage for it instead of rolling and instead of engaging the party all together cornered their barbarian and druid with it. The average roll being a plus 18 on hit and the highest health was the barb (?) At 28 I think.

I do apologize. Im still getting information.

Backstory im their old pathfinder dm and feel bad for not being able to offer much advice. Lol