some help with animate dead

[fish175]

Hello guys.

I've just started a campaign with some friends and i wanted to be a dread necromancer.
i've read the handbook but came of with a question that i cant find an answer to.
according to MM1:

Special Attacks: A skeleton retains none of the base creature’s
special attacks.
Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of
the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that
improve its melee or ranged attacks. A skeleton gains the following
special qualities.
Even though it says this serveral people writes that a Leopard would be a good choice for animate dead because of pounce and rake.
Doesn't the Leopard lose pounce and rake when becoming undead and if it does, would it be a good house rule that it doesnt?
What are you experiences with this?

[Florian]

Pounce and rake are (Ex) qualities, so a Leopard retains those.

[fish175]

In MM1 they are located under the Leopard special attacks?

[Florian]

In MM1 they are located under the Leopard special attacks?

That doesn´t matter. "It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks". So, they´re (Ex), they are retained.

[fish175]

yes it says

It retains any extraordinary special qualities that
improve its melee or ranged attacks
the focus i have is on the bold.
Doesn't it mean that it only counts special qualities which is a seperate category than special attacks?

[Florian]

yes it says

the focus i have is on the bold.
Doesn't it mean that it only counts special qualities which is a seperate category than special attacks?

Wrong focus. The paragraph highlights that the template retains (Ex), dropping everything else.

[Inevitability]

Wrong focus. The paragraph highlights that the template retains (Ex), dropping everything else.

...

What exactly is the purpose of the two words that come afterwards, then?

'Special qualities' are a defined game term, you know.

[Crake]

...

What exactly is the purpose of the two words that come afterwards, then?

'Special qualities' are a defined game term, you know.

Correct, the special quality reference is to abilities that improve it's natural attacks, as stated. So a special ability that increased the threat range of your claw attack for example would be kept, but a special attack of it's own is lost, so something like trample, or in this case, pounce and rate, are lost.

[Zexionthefirst]

...

What exactly is the purpose of the two words that come afterwards, then?

'Special qualities' are a defined game term, you know.



Many creatures have unusual abilities, which can include special attack forms, resistance or vulnerability to certain types of damage, and enhanced senses, among others. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). See the Glossary for definitions of special abilities.

The emphasis is mine. None, the entry for skeletons says: It retains any extraordinary special qualities that
improve its melee or ranged attacks. As we've just seen, there are no special qualities that affect "melee or ranged attacks"

Page 6 is also the only place where we are given a definition of Special Qualities. In the glossary, it is simply lumped under "special abilities". Thus, if a special ability is (EX), and improve melee or ranged attacks, it is retained by a skeleton.

Edit: But really, what do I know :smallredface:

[Zexionthefirst]

On the other hand, and Owlbear has Improved Grab (EX) as a special attack. A skeletal Owlbear does not. Thus, I figure I was wrong on my last post. A Leopard would lose pounce and rake when becoming undead.
Remember, kids! Do all your research before posting a conclusion. And sleep before posting on a forum.

[ksbsnowowl]

As we've just seen, there are no special qualities that affect "melee or ranged attacks"

Yes there are, they just aren't very common. There is even an example in the templated stat block in the Skeleton Template. The Cloud Giant retains the "Oversize Weapon" special quality, as it improves his melee attacks (by allowing him to wield a larger weapon than normal for his size.)

[Zexionthefirst]

Yes there are, they just aren't very common. There is even an example in the templated stat block in the Skeleton Template. The Cloud Giant retains the "Oversize Weapon" special quality, as it improves his melee attacks (by allowing him to wield a larger weapon than normal for his size.)

You're about five hours late, I already called myself out for being wrong. Using an example from the Skeleton Template.

[The_Jette]

You're about five hours late, I already called myself out for being wrong. Using an example from the Skeleton Template.

To be fair, a lot of people don't bother to read any further than the post that makes them want to respond to see if anyone responded to it. Heck, some people don't even read the entire post...

[Zexionthefirst]

To be fair, a lot of people don't bother to read any further than the post that makes them want to respond to see if anyone responded to it. Heck, some people don't even read the entire post...

That's fair. And, to also be fair, I only called myself out for my conclusion about keeping pounce being wrong. He called me out for saying "As we've just seen, there are no special qualities that affect "melee or ranged attacks"." That is something I didn't address in my followup.

ksbsnowowl, sorry if my response seemed defensive.

[Zanos]

As above, it would lose pounce and rake, because they're special attacks. If you can get you hands on awaken undead, though, that restores extraordinary racial abilities.

[ksbsnowowl]

ksbsnowowl, sorry if my response seemed defensive.

It's all good.

[fish175]

So all this means that there are almost no creatures better others when using "just" animate dead. I know abot the cloud giant and the hydras but other than that most of it doesn't matter?

[Inevitability]

So all this means that there are almost no creatures better others when using "just" animate dead. I know abot the cloud giant and the hydras but other than that most of it doesn't matter?

The remorhaz has a damage-increasing special quality.

[fish175]

What's the ability called??

[Quertus]

So all this means that there are almost no creatures better others when using "just" animate dead. I know abot the cloud giant and the hydras but other than that most of it doesn't matter?

I prefer to use children - especially the relatives of adventurers. The looks on their faces is priceless, they will almost always come for revenge, and adventurers carry the best loot.

[Inevitability]

What's the ability called??

It's called Heat, and adds 8d6 points of fire damage to all attacks as long as you can convince your DM a mindless creature can still be 'enraged'.

[fish175]

The problem with that ability is that it's the creature that becomes hot not just the attacks so i know that my Dm would rule against it.

[Zanos]

So all this means that there are almost no creatures better others when using "just" animate dead. I know abot the cloud giant and the hydras but other than that most of it doesn't matter?
Strength, dexterity, size, hit dice, natural weapons and movement modes are primary concerns. Natural armor matters for zombies.

[Inevitability]

The problem with that ability is that it's the creature that becomes hot not just the attacks so i know that my Dm would rule against it.

Why? Because the special quality does more than enhance basic attacks?

[John Longarrow]

I prefer to use children - especially the relatives of adventurers. The looks on their faces is priceless, they will almost always come for revenge, and adventurers carry the best loot.

We REALLY need a like for this! :sabine:

[Eldariel]

So all this means that there are almost no creatures better others when using "just" animate dead. I know abot the cloud giant and the hydras but other than that most of it doesn't matter?

Dragons have special rules for Zombification and Skeletonification in Draconomicon, most saliently they don't have the usual HD limits and Zombie Dragons retain Breath Weapons and they're just all kinds of badass. Other than that, yeah, Hydras are incredible Zombies in particular due to their own quirks and there are few others.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah a zombie silver dragon makes for one of the best undead battle mounts you can find. They have a breath weapon that is sod paralysis that you and your minions are immune to, a 150ft fly speed to counter the single action a round, and are nice and tough with good natural attacks to discourage people from meleeing you.

[fish175]

Yeah a zombie silver dragon makes for one of the best undead battle mounts you can find. They have a breath weapon that is sod paralysis that you and your minions are immune to, a 150ft fly speed to counter the single action a round, and are nice and tough with good natural attacks to discourage people from meleeing you.


Dragons have special rules for Zombification and Skeletonification in Draconomicon, most saliently they don't have the usual HD limits and Zombie Dragons retain Breath Weapons and they're just all kinds of badass. Other than that, yeah, Hydras are incredible Zombies in particular due to their own quirks and there are few others.

Yes the skeletal dragon template makes up for a lot but that's pretty far down the road HD wise.


Why? Because the special quality does more than enhance basic attacks?

Because it technically doesn't enhance its attack but just the body. The fact that it deals Ekstra Dmg hit is just a byproduct.


Strength, dexterity, size, hit dice, natural weapons and movement modes are primary concerns. Natural armor matters for zombies.

Thx. I've started a sheet for all the creatures I can find sorted by HD made into skeletons


I prefer to use children - especially the relatives of adventurers. The looks on their faces is priceless, they will almost always come for revenge, and adventurers carry the best loot.

With enough bluff you can convince the child that it was the parents fault that they die even though you kill them you may potentially have a slaymate

[Madara]

Genie keep their ability to fly as skeletons (Just thought I'd mention how wonderful they are)

[The_Jette]

Genie keep their ability to fly as skeletons (Just thought I'd mention how wonderful they are)

Genies have bones?!?!?!

[Inevitability]

Genies have bones?!?!?!

They're living creatures, are outsiders rather than elementals, need to breathe normally, and can eat and sleep if they want to. There's no reason to assume they don't share one more part of human physiology.

[Zanos]

Most outsiders do have bones. There's some pictures of dissections of fiends in FC I/II, for example.

[Eldariel]

Yes the skeletal dragon template makes up for a lot but that's pretty far down the road HD wise.

Well, between Desecrate and CL boosters, you can get fairly impressive dragons faifly early. Zombies in particular; they fly and breathe. Lots of good options exist: I made a short thread on the topic here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499642-Best-Dragon-to-Zombie-Dragon).

[Fouredged Sword]

And if its getting a body you are having trouble with a purchased scroll of pao will turn a large ox corpse into a large dragon corpse permanently.

[noob]

But then the paoed undead might have trouble once hit by dispel magic.
Nobody wants his undead beat sticks to stop working from a single dispel magic.

[Eldariel]

But then the paoed undead might have trouble once hit by dispel magic.
Nobody wants his undead beat sticks to stop working from a single dispel magic.

Rarely a problem as PAO scrolls have a CL of 15. 26 is a hefty dispel check to make early on when you'd use this combo.

[noob]

Rarely a problem as PAO scrolls have a CL of 15. 26 is a hefty dispel check to make early on when you'd use this combo.
Then it means that the scroll probably was expensive(relatively to your wealth at that time) when your bought it if the probability of the spell being dispelled was low.
Or that you are abusing a staff and umd but then the opponent can do so too(or heck just use mage disjunction it is the baseline solution to everything for everybody but adventurers fighting someone carrying loot).

[Eldariel]

Then it means that the scroll probably was expensive(relatively to your wealth at that time) when your bought it if the probability of the spell being dispelled was low.
Or that you are abusing a staff and umd but then the opponent can do so too(or heck just use mage disjunction it is the baseline solution to everything for everybody but adventurers fighting someone carrying loot).

Relatively expensive at 3000gp stock price (CL15 is standard for a level 8 spell) but frankly, well worth the cost in this case - PAO is bonkers-broken and thus super-efficient. Scrolls in general are generally quite good for cost-efficiency.

[Fouredged Sword]

Relatively expensive at 3000gp stock price (CL15 is standard for a level 8 spell) but frankly, well worth the cost in this case - PAO is bonkers-broken and thus super-efficient. Scrolls in general are generally quite good for cost-efficiency.

Or, if you can find a level 15 caster of dubious morals you can hire him to cast the spell directly for 1200gp, much more reasonable.

[Madara]

Two Words:
Marvelous Pigments

Who needs PaO to make corpses when you can just create them like some sort of god?

[Fouredged Sword]

Two Words:
Marvelous Pigments

Who needs PaO to make corpses when you can just create them like some sort of god?

That may not work depending on the reading of the value clause. The value of a large dragon corpse is likely higher than 2000gp. Dragon skin and such count as valuable materials.

That said, if it works? At level 10 paint yourself a young adult force dragon corpse. Or a pile of dragon bodies and chain command undead to control them all without worrying about control pool.

EDIT - hrmmm... May have to research the best dragon you can pain that is under 1000 ft^3.