Level up - the most boring class/subclass level?

[Sirdar]

When a 9th level Bard reach level 10 he gets a Bardic Inspiration upgrade (d8 -> d10), Expertise in 2 skills, Magical Secrets (2 spells), a new cantrip and a second 5th level spell slot. Pretty sweet!

When a 9th level Champion reach level 10 he gets to choose a second fighting style. How boring is that!

Is there some class/subclass in the PHB that gets an even more uninspiring level than the Champion at level 10? What is the worst class/subclass level in your opinion?

[nickl_2000]

Probably Way of the Shadow Monk at level 10 (as most boring, not worse class. I like the class/subclass).

You get 5 extra feet of movement in combat and 1 more Ki.

[Specter]

I really don't see how a second fighting style is boring. I'd be more bored by Improved Combat Superiority (d8 to d10? Whatever).

If you count multiclassing, going Pal/Rgr/Bar/Mnk for 5 levels and then taking 5 fighter levels gets you absolutely nothing at level 5.

[tomce795]

The Fighter is a simple class with the Champion archetype. You can dish out a lot and take a lot. Sure stuff like improved critical and extra fighting styles doesn't sound as flashy as a lot of the other classes, but it's simple and effective. That's what the Fighter is good at. Being simple and effective.

[Sirdar]

I really don't see how a second fighting style is boring. I'd be more bored by Improved Combat Superiority (d8 to d10? Whatever).

If you count multiclassing, going Pal/Rgr/Bar/Mnk for 5 levels and then taking 5 fighter levels gets you absolutely nothing at level 5.

Yeah, the Improved Combat Superiority is not particularly fancy either. I still prefer it to another fighting style though (unless UA is allowed).

A second extra attack that doesn't stack with the first one is of course unbeatable. If I were the DM and one of my players wanted to take that path, I would definitely offer him/her something else - like a (boring) second fighting style. :smallwink:

[Armored Walrus]

Getting another fighting style is exactly the same as finding a sword+1 or shield+1, for example. Not too boring, IMO.

[Aett_Thorn]

If we're sticking with official material, I'd say Ranger level 6: Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer improvements.

Depending on your DM and the campaign, these might do absolutely nothing for you.

[ZealousObject]

13th level Rogue-Theif's Use Magic Device
It is tied to a completely optional part of the game, and even if you have magic weapons or arms or doodads someone else can probably use it better.

[Gryndle]

away from books at the moment, but Monk 14th level maybe ? Tongue of Sun and Moon. weee I can talk to anyone now. everyone else got what?

[ZorroGames]

away from books at the moment, but Monk 14th level maybe ? Tongue of Sun and Moon. weee I can talk to anyone now. everyone else got what?

Two words.

Role Play.

Something frequently ignored in many OD&D campaigns and I suspect still under utilized.

[Consensus]

away from books at the moment, but Monk 14th level maybe ? Tongue of Sun and Moon. weee I can talk to anyone now. everyone else got what?

It's 13th level but yeah nothing else happens there. In monk 13's defense it is between an ASI and diamond soul

[ZorroGames]

Two words.

Role Play.

Something frequently ignored in many OD&D campaigns and I suspect still under utilized.

Having sneaked up behind the <fill in the blank> I evasdrop on their nefarious scheming.

Etc.,

[Sirdar]

AFB - What does Tongue of Sun and Moon actually give you (game mechanics)?

[Consensus]

AFB - What does Tongue of Sun and Moon actually give you (game mechanics)?

T o n g u e o f t h e S u n a n d M o o n

Starting at 13th level, you learn to touch the ki of other

minds so that you understand all spoken languages.

Moreover, any creature that can understand a language

can understand what you say.

[nickl_2000]

AFB - What does Tongue of Sun and Moon actually give you (game mechanics)?

You can understand all spoken languages and any creature that can understand a spoken language can understand what you say.


EDIT: Dang, Ninjaed

[BiPolar]

Berserker Path Barbarian is pretty bad:

Intimidating Presence...Us a non-primary stat (CHA) to spend an action on attempt to Frigthen. Use an action to extend the duration.

I mean, at least have it key off of a Primary stat! And maybe bonus action instead of action.

[Beechgnome]

Berserker Path Barbarian is pretty bad:

Intimidating Presence...Us a non-primary stat (CHA) to spend an action on attempt to Frigthen. Use an action to extend the duration.

I mean, at least have it key off of a Primary stat! And maybe bonus action instead of action.

Also, having your opponents run away from you and not attacking actually makes it harder to sustain your rage. So it works at cross-purposes to your other abilities. I'd only use it if not raging or near death.

[dejarnjc]

I always thought the 9th level assassin feature were particularly lame for 90+% of campaigns.

[Specter]

Oh yeah, how could we forget that first paladin level? Detecting some creatures and 5hp of long-rest healing, that's just plain sad.

[Sirdar]

I can understand that it is hard to design all classes such that they get a similar power increase each and every level. Some get their candy at level 2 and some at level 3 etc. But there are quite a few class-levels that feels unjust. Like the ones mentioned so far in this thread. And is there any level 10 class/subclass feature that can compete with what the Bard gets at that level?

But some differences are deceptive and are actually quite well designed. For instance, compare the Fighter class with every other martial class that gets extra attack at level 5. The other classes also get som additional feature at that level. Seems unfair until you realize the automatic scaling of Action Surge (when taking the attack action) you get at the same time.

[JellyPooga]

13th level Rogue-Theif's Use Magic Device
It is tied to a completely optional part of the game, and even if you have magic weapons or arms or doodads someone else can probably use it better.

Wow. Really? That's one of the best and most interesting abilities a Rogue can access IMO. Yes, it's dependent on your GM handing out magic items, butt it can really switch up your game. All those wands the Sorcerer isn't really using anymore? Yours to play with. Playing a pre-set module with a Staff of the Woodlands and no Druid in the party? No worries, you can use it! UMD has a lot of very exciting possibilities.

[Vaz]

Warlock 8. You get an ability score increase, and an additional spell known.

**** ye, you get another 4th level spell! Whoo! But you don't get another spell slot. So you can't really cast it. You're a warlock, so you cherry picked from your 4th level spells which 2 you were going to take at 7th level. If you chose not to take a 4th level spell, then you're not fussed about gaining another one and it's only "nice to have". With a Cha +2 Race, you're already at 20 if you rolled (Primary Stat, and most roll a 16+ somewhere in there stats), and if you did capped point buy, you've either now hit that 20, and got a spare +1 elsewhere, or a feat, which anyone else can take anyway, except you're limited to a Charisma one to hit that Cap.

You've waited for 11,000XP to get a spell you don't want or need, nor really cast, and all you get from it is the same as everyone else. And then have to wait for another 14,000 XP to get something. You've literally got 25,000XP as a 7th level character to wait until you get something nice.

[Corran]

Oh yeah, how could we forget that first paladin level? Detecting some creatures and 5hp of long-rest healing, that's just plain sad.
Love them both. Love the first paladin level. These two abilities (along with aura of protection courage and divine smite), are what sets the paladin apart from other classes and make him special, from a theme point of view.

Yeah, not a strong level mechanically, but I like it for other reasons and I dont find it boring personally.
--------
For the most boring level, I would probably say level 20 for classes with not ''strong'' capstones. Meaning capstones that aren't flashy, because it is just a lot more enjoyable to get a capstone that looks good in action, rather than one that might be good, yet does not show in an entertaining way. (thinking of bard, sorcerer and warlock)

[Flashy]

Wow. Really? That's one of the best and most interesting abilities a Rogue can access IMO. Yes, it's dependent on your GM handing out magic items, butt it can really switch up your game. All those wands the Sorcerer isn't really using anymore? Yours to play with. Playing a pre-set module with a Staff of the Woodlands and no Druid in the party? No worries, you can use it! UMD has a lot of very exciting possibilities.

The main problem with Use Magic Device is just that the list of items with race/class restrictions other than "Spellcaster" is vanishingly small, and the Arcane Trickster got the ability to use anything with the spellcasting restriction way back at 3rd level.

You're accessing the staff list, the bardic instruments, the holy avenger, the necklace of prayer beads, the dwarven thrower and that's it.

[Potato_Priest]

Savage critical at barbarian level 9 is the worst/lamest. You get plenty of cool stuff in barbarian before that, but levels 8-13 are a real drag.

[Cl0001]

A bunch of level 20 abilities. A good amount of warlock levels. A good amount of wizard levels, a lot of fighter levels. In all honesty, the first couple levels in classes are good, then they get boring afterwards.

[MrStabby]

Oh yeah, how could we forget that first paladin level? Detecting some creatures and 5hp of long-rest healing, that's just plain sad.

Stabilising dying characters up to 5 times per day at level 1 isn't bad at all.

[Zene]

Stabilising dying characters up to 5 times per day at level 1 isn't bad at all.

Not just stabilizing, actually bringing them up. Plus all weapons and armors, and shields. Pal 1 is actually quite good.

Druid 1, I'd say, is the weakest of the classes' first levels. But still not so bad.

[JellyPooga]

The main problem with Use Magic Device is just that the list of items with race/class restrictions other than "Spellcaster" is vanishingly small, and the Arcane Trickster got the ability to use anything with the spellcasting restriction way back at 3rd level.

You're accessing the staff list, the bardic instruments, the holy avenger, the necklace of prayer beads, the dwarven thrower and that's it.

That's a short list, I'll grant, but also an impressive and versatile one nonetheless, that any Arcane Trickster would give his eye teeth to use, given half a chance.

[MrStabby]

Not just stabilizing, actually bringing them up. Plus all weapons and armors, and shields. Pal 1 is actually quite good.

Druid 1, I'd say, is the weakest of the classes' first levels. But still not so bad.

Yes, sorry - should have picked better words!

Ranger 1 can be utterly useless.

Some of the higher level cleric levels can seem dull if you have other casters - things like word of recall seem less good when you have a couple of wizards with teleport.

[Zalabim]

AFB - What does Tongue of Sun and Moon actually give you (game mechanics)?

I had to say this, because I always have to say this: Subtitles.

Which makes sneaking up and eavesdropping on an enemy a little awkward.

Goblin A "What are these symbols scrolling by up/down there?"
Goblin B "Oh, those're so the audience knows what we're saying. We must be in narrative focus right now."
Monk "They've started breaking the fourth wall. They're onto me."

[Solunaris]

Oh, this one is easy; Sorcerer 20 is the lamest level I've ever seen. You get the amazing ability to regain 4 Sorcery Points after a short rest. At this point, that amount is paltry and to add insult to injury it is the first instance of a resource of yours refreshing on a short rest.

You also get another 7th level spell slot and 1 maximum sorcery point, but I'd rather take the level 1 abilities of any other class than Sorcerer 20.

[Vorok]

Going with the PHB, several classes get levels where they don't get anything (apart from new spells available, either through getting higher spell slots or through things like domain spells). Imo, getting nothing is pretty boring.

Bard 7/11
Cleric 3/7/9/13/15
Druid 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17
Paladin 9/13/17
Ranger 9/13/17
Sorcerer 5/7/9/11/13/15
Warlock 5/7/9/18
Wizard 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17

[Vaz]

Going with the PHB, several classes get levels where they don't get anything (apart from new spells available, either through getting higher spell slots or through things like domain spells). Imo, getting nothing is pretty boring.

Bard 7/11
Cleric 3/7/9/13/15
Druid 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17
Paladin 9/13/17
Ranger 9/13/17
Sorcerer 5/7/9/11/13/15
Warlock 5/7/9/18
Wizard 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17

The new spell level is the getting something, though. If you think that Warlock 8 is better than Warlock 7, you should probably re-evaluate your parameters.

[JellyPooga]

Ranger (PHB) in general gets pretty uninspiring after level 5. Levels 9, 13 and 17 stand out because all they get is access to their next level of spells, which other spellslingers have been playing with for several levels (at least) already. Not lacklustre, per se, but it's hardly the most exciting thing to be "catching up" on other characters.

The one that really takes the cake for me, though? Ranger Level 10...Woo! Level up! Let's see here...I get another situational bonus to exploration stuff that is largely overlooked anyway, ok...and what else? Hide in Plain Sight? Cool! That sounds awesome. What does that do?...*reads*...Oh...Soooo, I'm never going to use that. I'll just stick with Pass Without Trace thanks. Er, do I get anything else? No? Huh...well, hooray for the extra HP I guess. What really makes it a kick in the teeth is the fact that almost everyone else gets some awesome feature at level 10;

Bard: Expertise, Magical Secrets and BI die goes up to d10
Cleric: Divine Intervention
Druid: Natures Ward (not too exciting, but pretty powerful) OR Elemental Wild Shape (aka: Moon Druids second "power plateau")
Fighter: (EK) Eldritch Strike
Paladin: Aura of Courage
Rogue: ASI
Sorcerer: (an extra) Metamagic
Warlock: Patron Feature
Wizard: Some of the most iconic School Features (Improved Abjuration, The Third Eye, Empowered Evocation)

[GlenSmash!]

PHB ranger 20 is pretty boring.

[Vogonjeltz]

Berserker Path Barbarian is pretty bad:

Intimidating Presence...Us a non-primary stat (CHA) to spend an action on attempt to Frigthen. Use an action to extend the duration.

I mean, at least have it key off of a Primary stat! And maybe bonus action instead of action.

It's an action so that it doesn't interfere with your bonus action attack from Frenzy.


Also, having your opponents run away from you and not attacking actually makes it harder to sustain your rage. So it works at cross-purposes to your other abilities. I'd only use it if not raging or near death.

It doesn't cause the opponent to run away, it just prevents them from getting closer and gives disadvantage to all their attacks...which is amazing. It also requires only one saving throw and after that can be renewed indefinitely, which is also amazing and worthwhile.

So it screws a target in combat and by just being anywhere near the weaker party members prevets them from closing to melee range. Again, quite useful considering it can be done at will and in conjunction with Frenzy.


Oh, this one is easy; Sorcerer 20 is the lamest level I've ever seen. You get the amazing ability to regain 4 Sorcery Points after a short rest. At this point, that amount is paltry and to add insult to injury it is the first instance of a resource of yours refreshing on a short rest.

You also get another 7th level spell slot and 1 maximum sorcery point, but I'd rather take the level 1 abilities of any other class than Sorcerer 20.

Based on the bolded statement, I think I might have a bridge to sell you.
Also, this mystery box. There could be anything inside...even a mystery box!



Druid level 12 only nets an ASI. By that time the average druid has put Wisdom to 20 from the two previous ASI making this one pretty well near useless.
Everything else mentioned so far is more useful than an ASI to a character who doesn't really benefit from most feats and has reached 20 on their primary stat.

[Potato_Priest]

Druid level 12 only nets an ASI. By that time the average druid has put Wisdom to 20 from the two previous ASI making this one pretty well near useless.
Everything else mentioned so far is more useful than an ASI to a character who doesn't really benefit from most feats and has reached 20 on their primary stat.

It's hard to make that case for savage critical: barbarian level 9. It's an extremely minor damage increase, while the druid with their ASI could take tough for 26 more HP, resilient(con) for concentration checks, that feat that gives you more health after a short rest for more sustainability, a cool non-combat feat like actor or keen mind, or just bump a secondary stat like constitution, which is would give a smaller bonus to concentration, saving throws, and hp. All of those will probably give more mechanical benefit than savage critical, which gives you at best a 1/10 chance of dealing an extra 6.5 damage on top of what you normally get (reckless attacking with a greataxe), or an average of +.65 damage per attack, with no corresponding increase to accuracy.

[DeAnno]

Yeah, the Improved Combat Superiority is not particularly fancy either. I still prefer it to another fighting style though (unless UA is allowed).

ICS is better if you commonly use your dice to add to d20 rolls instead of damage rolls. This mainly applies to users of -5/+10 who spam Precision Attack, and also Monster Hunters and Scouts who use them defensively with saves or AC.

If you're not that type of Maneuver user, then yeah, I'd say it's pretty terrible.

[DragonSorcererX]

The Fighter is a simple class with the Champion archetype. You can dish out a lot and take a lot. Sure stuff like improved critical and extra fighting styles doesn't sound as flashy as a lot of the other classes, but it's simple and effective. That's what the Fighter is good at. Being simple and effective.

Simple and effective = every turn I say "I attack with my sword... and that's it...".

[ZorroGames]

Simple and effective = every turn I say "I attack with my sword... and that's it...".

I suspect the monsters wish the fighter would quit chopping them up too.

Half the fun of a straight up fighter is either the role play (cue terrible accents and monologues) or the sheer pleasure of Feats for their own sakes.

[Vaz]

Simple and effective = every turn I say "I attack with my sword... and that's it...".

And the Ranger attacks them with his bow, and the Swashbuckler uses Booming Blade, and the Warlock uses Eldritch Blast, and the Druid turns into a bear and then attacks, and a monk uses Flurry of Blows until either they or the opponent is dead...

Exactly the same.

[Trampaige]

Going with the PHB, several classes get levels where they don't get anything (apart from new spells available, either through getting higher spell slots or through things like domain spells)
Warlock 5/7/9/18

Literally invocations at all of those levels.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'd say commoner, but it's actually level 11 that is the worst. No BaB and no save increase. :smallamused:

[Vogonjeltz]

It's hard to make that case for savage critical: barbarian level 9. It's an extremely minor damage increase, while the druid with their ASI could take tough for 26 more HP, resilient(con) for concentration checks, that feat that gives you more health after a short rest for more sustainability, a cool non-combat feat like actor or keen mind, or just bump a secondary stat like constitution, which is would give a smaller bonus to concentration, saving throws, and hp. All of those will probably give more mechanical benefit than savage critical, which gives you at best a 1/10 chance of dealing an extra 6.5 damage on top of what you normally get (reckless attacking with a greataxe), or an average of +.65 damage per attack, with no corresponding increase to accuracy.

Toughness is 2 hp per level, so it's only 24 HP, worse that only applies while they're in their normal form because statistics get replaced when transformed.

And Brutal Critical is worth an extra d12 on one out of every 20 attacks (once every 10 rounds without reckless attack, one every 7 rounds for a Berserker), or once every approximately 10 attacks with Reckless Attack (Once every 5 rounds for totem warrior, once every ~3 rounds for a Berserker).

That means it'll come into effect basically every single combat. Kind of a big deal.

I'd almost certainly pick up Savage Attacker for a Barbarian though, that can be a big deal on a critical hit if you happen to roll below average on damage the first time (or even if you happen to roll well, but do better the second time, since it's advantage on damage rolls).

[TheUser]

Toughness is 2 hp per level, so it's only 24 HP, worse that only applies while they're in their normal form because statistics get replaced when transformed.

But you retain all features from class, race and other sources. Could you potentially Hill Dwarf Druid with the Tough feat and get +3 hp/level to animal forms?

[Vaz]

No.

/letters

[DragonSorcererX]

And the Ranger attacks them with his bow, and the Swashbuckler uses Booming Blade, and the Warlock uses Eldritch Blast, and the Druid turns into a bear and then attacks, and a monk uses Flurry of Blows until either they or the opponent is dead...

Exactly the same.

Yeah but, magic will always be infinite times cooler... now, if there were ToB maneuvers in 5e, and not only those few tricks the Battle Master can do, I would respect pure martial characters...

[ZorroGames]

Yeah but, magic will always be infinite times cooler... now, if there were ToB maneuvers in 5e, and not only those few tricks the Battle Master can do, I would respect pure martial characters...

Really. Stick with what you like and let the meatshields do what they like. Respect? Well, at least you didn't say you hated the Martial characters.

[DragonSorcererX]

Really. Stick with what you like and let the meatshields do what they like. Respect? Well, at least you didn't say you hated the Martial characters.

I don't hate them, I hate Wild Sorcerers and Halflings/Hobbits/Kenders, and I like the Battlemaster a little bit and would play one, but I would like to have those cool maneuvers back... :smallfrown:

[TheBirba]

Savage critical at barbarian level 9 is the worst/lamest. You get plenty of cool stuff in barbarian before that, but levels 8-13 are a real drag.



It's hard to make that case for savage critical: barbarian level 9.

Barbarians also increase their Rage bonus damage at lvl 9. That's not too shabby.

Rangers have it way worse at lvl 10.