Running under total defence

[Avianmosquito]

I just killed a PC. I mean, I killed him all over the road. The idiot charged a platoon of infantry whose only purpose was supposed to be to get the party to leave town, and got a bullet-pointed presentation on why he's too dumb to live. But before he committed suicide by firing squad, he made this comment. "I'll be fine, I'll advance under total defence, so they need a nat 20.", and when I reminded him they were 300 feet off, he said he'd run. Under total defence. I nixed that, though he would still have been thoroughly ventilated either way. I was pretty sure you can't run under total defence, but was I right? It caused a bullet hell of an argument.

Also, my apologies for that last pun.

[LTwerewolf]

Total defense is a standard action. Running requires the standard action to be done, therefore the two are mutually exclusive unless he's got a way to have an extra standard action every single round. They also lose their dex bonus to AC when running unless they have the feat.

[Avianmosquito]

Total defense is a standard action. Running requires the standard action to be done, therefore the two are mutually exclusive unless he's got a way to have an extra standard action every single round. They also lose their dex bonus to AC when running unless they have the feat.

That's what I thought. Also, his dex bonus was only +1 anyway. He was a heavy cleric in plate.

[death390]

however a standard action total Defense with a standard move action would be possible.

The standard action Aid Another has nothing about ranged attacks but i would assume that like the melee version you could Aid Another so the platoon that attacked the same target could +2 a couple of shooters attack rolls or they could stack 3 aid per shooter and each shooter gets +6 to hit. heck depending on the size of the group you could go all in and have 9 of them aid per shooter and get +18 to hit. he was ventilated PERIOD! at a enhanced movement speed plus the quick trait fastest he could move would be 30+10+30 (haste/ expeditious retreat) =70ft/rnd pluss the enemy group could move backward while firing single shots and standard medium sized char is 30ft meaning that he could only close 40ft/rnd. 300ft/40 = 7.5 rounds (round up to 8) so 8 rounds of hime being basically guaranteed hit by probably multiple shooters.

[LTwerewolf]

No mention of the flaw or the spell were mentioned, and being in full plate his move speed would have been 20, not 30 (plus any run would be 3x speed, not 4x speed). He's moving 20 speed per round instead of your 70.

[Avianmosquito]

however a standard action total Defense with a standard move action would be possible.

The standard action Aid Another has nothing about ranged attacks but i would assume that like the melee version you could Aid Another so the platoon that attacked the same target could +2 a couple of shooters attack rolls or they could stack 3 aid per shooter and each shooter gets +6 to hit. heck depending on the size of the group you could go all in and have 9 of them aid per shooter and get +18 to hit. he was ventilated PERIOD! at a enhanced movement speed plus the quick trait fastest he could move would be 30+10+30 (haste/ expeditious retreat) =70ft/rnd pluss the enemy group could move backward while firing single shots and standard medium sized char is 30ft meaning that he could only close 40ft/rnd. 300ft/40 = 7.5 rounds (round up to 8) so 8 rounds of hime being basically guaranteed hit by probably multiple shooters.

What happened was he just tried to run for it and got shot. So he tried to slow down to normal move speed (20ft/round, heavy armor) and outheal the platoon's .94 calibre rain. Sure, they take two rounds to reload but that's five times he gets a full 30-round volley with a 15% hit rate at 2d10 damage per ball. He got killed on volley #3.

Edit:
Technically, they're minie balls, which are not ball shaped. And they're .79, not .94. .94 calibre balls would be the game's muskets, these were musket-rifles.

[death390]

not to mention the platoon could backup as fast/faster than him.

[Avianmosquito]

not to mention the platoon could backup as fast/faster than him.

They didn't even have to move, they just gave him a baker's dozen bleeding holes on the last volley alone, including one confirmed critical. You can't outheal that kind of output at 7th level, especially when the final volley kills you flat dead from full hp.

Edit:
He had 45hp, that last volley did 71. Yeah. He thought this was a good idea. That is the kind of player we are talking about. The kind that picks a fight with a group that can blast him down in one round once he's within one range increment.

[ArendK]

Total defense is a standard action that precludes any attack actions. So he could move at his regular movement speed barring any move or swift action special abilities allowing faster movement.

[Fizban]

And that's why you always carry a tower shield.


The standard action Aid Another has nothing about ranged attacks but i would assume that like the melee version you could Aid Another. . .
No, you could not. It says right there that it only works for melee, which is why you can take specific abilities that let you do it at range.

The correct response to a sufficiently high AC would be volley fire, which still requires replacing all instances of "archers" and "arrows," but since muskets were actually used for volley fire it's about the smallest jump. Concentrated volleys are actually pretty inaccurate against medium targets (as coordinating requires you to hit AC 20, which is why you have sergeants), but area only requires 15 and if you might hit even with the splash deviation. Or at least it would be the right move if it weren't for being direct fire weapons, which restrict the usefulness of the volley considerably.

It should be noted that unless they were strung out in a single rank, cover bonuses apply, unless you waive those for formations. Doesn't actually matter if they were already fishing for 20's, unless you use impacting cover rules.

[Psyren]

If you have the Mobility feat, you can get a bonus equivalent in size to Total Defense while being able to run full-tilt.

[The_Jette]

If you have the Mobility feat, you can get a bonus equivalent in size to Total Defense while being able to run full-tilt.

Mobility only counts against Attacks of Opportunity made from moving out of someone's threatened space.

[Psyren]

Mobility only counts against Attacks of Opportunity made from moving out of someone's threatened space.

If you're fast enough, that's pretty much all you'd need to worry about :smalltongue:

[Avianmosquito]

And that's why you always carry a tower shield.

They still would have killed him when he got close. They had BaB +3, dex +1, weapon focus (musket-rifle) and point blank shot. Inside 120ft they had +5, inside 30ft +6, the only reason he didn't get annihilated on the first volley was a -4 from range (he only closed to 240ft on his run). His AC was only 19, with a tower shield (which would mean he'd need a smaller sword or an exotic proficiency) that would have been 23. Holding fire for the last round would have allowed them to hit 15% against AC 23. As the dice fell, he would have taken five bullets including a confirmed crit on the last volley. Even after that he'd be surrounded by combatants with 13hp and AC 14. That's also assuming they allowed the fight to go to melee instead of just backing up and shooting more, since they had 30ft move rates with 4x run speed. This attack was suicide regardless.


It should be noted that unless they were strung out in a single rank, cover bonuses apply, unless you waive those for formations. Doesn't actually matter if they were already fishing for 20's, unless you use impacting cover rules.

They have a feat for that, but I can't remember if that was in the game already or if that's something I added for this setting. Either way.

[Fizban]

You use the full cover ability of the tower shield to ignore all the ranged attacks on the way in. Assuming they allow you to close the gap, you don't die until you come out from behind they shield and they mob you. A mild improvement, but then he'd get to learn that even without the guns he was 100% gonna fail.

[Avianmosquito]

You use the full cover ability of the tower shield to ignore all the ranged attacks on the way in. Assuming they allow you to close the gap, you don't die until you come out from behind they shield and they mob you. A mild improvement, but then he'd get to learn that even without the guns he was 100% gonna fail.

Not to mention that he'd take a -2 once he did start attacking them. Totalling that up, he'd have +4 (+5 Bab, +1 enhancement, -2 tower shield), against 30 3rd-level warriors with AC 14 and 13hp, getting stabbed and shot to death by NPCs with scimitars and musket-rifles. Good luck with that!

Could be worse, they could have been jannisaries instead of regulars. Then he'd be fighting FIFTH level NPCs with better stats (16 dex and 12 con, otherwise the same), and he'd be even more boned.

Suffice to say, he's not my brightest player. And he's a purest. I allowed them to use 72 flat or 4d6 and drop the lowest, since we NEEDED powerful characters for this campaign (I mean, we're working against a fascist theocracy here, that's why they're willing to drop a platoon on two guys), and he insisted he do 3d6 straight down. That's why he's a cleric, I might add. He rolled 11, 12, 10 on his physical stats, and 7, 15, 17 for mental stats. He chose cleric to make use of his highest stat, then picked up his bastard sword and full plate as his only weapons... Despite being in a setting with guns and having better dex than strength. I can only hope he's roleplaying his 7 int.

Oh, but surely his new character (no resurrection) is better, right? NOPE! He still insisted on 3d6 straight down, and he got 13, 11, 11, 12, 18, 9. And we now have a sorcerer and are relying on a ranger for healing. "Take bard.", she said. "We need somebody who can heal.", she said. Did he listen? Of ****ing course not.

If I sound frustrated, that's because I am.

[Fizban]

My response would simply be to refuse. Demanding to play an underpowered character is just as bad as demanding to play an overpowered one. If you have any room to put your foot down, this would be a time to do it.

[Avianmosquito]

My response would simply be to refuse. Demanding to play an underpowered character is just as bad as demanding to play an overpowered one. If you have any room to put your foot down, this would be a time to do it.

Especially when it's a party of 2 and there's no room for anybody not pulling their weight, yeah. But if he leaves, we don't have a game anymore. This campaign was already designed for three people, we're already down one. Plus side is, I'm certain this new character won't last very long. Like, at all. I let him start at 7th level to keep up with the party, but do you know how much HP a 7th-level sorcerer with 11 con has? Yeah, 17. And of course he has AC 11. Gee, I wonder how that'll work out when people start shooting at him with their guns.

I can just imagine this guy in our next game. Nya-Za'Thoth rises from the caldera and he runs in with his 10th-level paladin or whatever like "Come on guys, we can take it!". And our party will be like "Jim, it's a CR 30. You need a will save just to cast divine spells in its presence. We all took ability damage for LOOKING AT IT. It is impossible to permanently kill! Dear gods, man! Run away!". Then he'll die and blame me because he attacked a creature any sane man would flee from.

[Ellrin]

It sounds to me that you need to have a talk with this guy. Tell him that this sort of thing might fly in other circumstances, but with such a small, limited party, it would really help everyone if what he was playing was a little less roll-determined and a little more role-determined. I mean, if he wants to be a purist, let him, but tell him he needs to make at least a little compromise in light of the situation, just so everyone can have fun.

If I were in your position, I'd make the suggestion that he can roll his stats however he wants (within reasonable limits, of course), build his character however he wants, but that you have the right to be final arbiter on his class choice (so that it fits the party role required), and you reserve the right to make him reroll a stat line that is just too crippling. Of course, if he feels like he's being too shoehorned into something he doesn't want to play by this, you could always suggest that he take a few more liberties with rolling his stats.

Another pretty underpowered option that gives more flexibility for him to choose something more party-essential would be to tell him he can assign stats from the elite array. They'll be a bit underwhelming still, but if you can get him to assign stats, he'll at least probably be thinking more in terms of "what's good for the party" than "what's good for my stat block."

Regardless of what you suggest, if he refuses to admit there's an issue, you may just need to call it off. No game sucks, believe me, but it's better than only one stubborn player having any fun.

I'd also suggest that you stress to him that there will be forces that the party will face that they will not be able to overcome; explain to him that this is a conscious world design choice, and that running away or thinking outside the stab-stab box are valid (and sometimes necessary) tactics.

All that said, for the meantime, throw your ranger a free wand of CLW (add it on top of a pile of loot if you want to be subtle about it) so she doesn't feel like she's being forced into a role she didn't ask for.

[Avianmosquito]

While the site was down, we ran another session. He showed up with a completely different character, since his sorcerer hadn't been introduced yet. Same ability rolls, but a favored soul. He's been less suicidal this time, though he hasn't really had an opportunity. Maybe he was roleplaying, and his higher int is responsible for his better behaviour this time?

[Psyren]

While the site was down, we ran another session. He showed up with a completely different character, since his sorcerer hadn't been introduced yet. Same ability rolls, but a favored soul. He's been less suicidal this time, though he hasn't really had an opportunity. Maybe he was roleplaying, and his higher int is responsible for his better behaviour this time?

Another possibility is that the FS is what he wanted to be all along, and he was killing off his old character intentionally.

[weckar]

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but a Cha 9 Sorcerer would not be able to cast any spells anyway, right?

[finaldooms]

That is correct...minimum needed is 10 ..thenbup to19

[Avianmosquito]

He has 18 charisma, and favored souls ALSO use charisma.

[Crake]

That's what I thought. Also, his dex bonus was only +1 anyway. He was a heavy cleric in plate.

The AC bonus from total defense is a dodge bonus, which you lose whenever you would normally lose your dex bonus to AC, which is what makes this particular combination hilarious.

[zergling.exe]

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but a Cha 9 Sorcerer would not be able to cast any spells anyway, right?

Avian's posting them in the order Int, Cha, Wis and not the standard Int, Wis, Cha. I had to double check myself, but the cleric is the same with the last number being highest (Wis).

[Avianmosquito]

Avian's posting them in the order Int, Cha, Wis and not the standard Int, Wis, Cha. I had to double check myself, but the cleric is the same with the last number being highest (Wis).

I would like to note I'm hardly the only person who does that.

[Psyren]

I would like to note I'm hardly the only person who does that.

It's how the books do it though so it can be a bit confusing. For example, all the sample NPCs in the Complete books use Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha.