Armored support character 20 levels build

[ZorroGames]

DEX based mountain dwarf "magic machine gun" build. Just a bit product of theory building. Point Buy. PHB only available to player.

ST 12+2
DE 15
CO 15+2
IN 8
WI 14
CH 8

Somewhere between 1st and 4th you replace your light Crossbow with a heavy Crossbow. You start with Chain Mail. You start with Shield and Rapier (finesse)

Optional Feats allowed.

Level 4 DE+1, CO+1. 16 and 18 respectively.
Level 6 Crossbow expert.
Level 8 DE +2 now an 18.
Level 10 Heavy Armor Master.
Level 12 DE+2 now a 20.
Level 14 Sharpshooter.
Level 16 CO +2 now a 20.
Level 19 Mobile.

No guarantee campaign goes to 20th plus level of course. :smallbiggrin:

So, if the goal is a Mountain Dwarf William Tell does that build do a good job?

Thanks in advance

[Bloodcloud]

It's quite suboptimal. The strenght doesn't really add anything. Heavy armor master is likely lost given you are more of a ranged combatant anyway. A hand crossbow deals more damage than the heavy because of the extra attack from crossbow master (and fit better with the machine-gun fell you want).

Mobile requires melee attack so it is all but wasted. Sharpshooter is taken really late, and it should be a priority for any archer character.

You'd be better of with any race that grant DEX, but if you are set on dwarf, the other dwarf subrace (AFB, the one that grant wisdom, Hill?) would be an improvement, as wis is never lost. Keep with light armor, prioritize crossbow expert, then dex, then sharpshooter, then resilient wis. Then maybe alert?

[Corran]

Strength should start at 10 instead of 12, for a 27 point buy. (you used 29 points as is)
Make a mention that the class is a fighter too.
The next step is to determine which fighter archtype you want for this character. (I am assuming eldritch knight, for the ''magic'' part of the ''magic machine gun'' description)
Idont see much value in HAM (heavy armor master) and in raising CON(stitution) for an archer, unless perhaps the aim is to shoot from point blank range quite regularly? (which since having crossbow expert is fine)

[ZorroGames]

The character being theorized was mountain dwarf so pretty much a given.

Damn math error, grr.

[ZorroGames]

HAM drops the damage from hits.

Champion archetype is not melee specific from what I am reading. Weapon attacks are weapon attacks. Melee is not specified on pages 72-73.

Other than Ring Mail, heavy armor requires ST 13 or better.

[ZorroGames]

Hand CB 1D6 and shorter range than HCB 1D10 and longer range.

Start shooting, keep shooting, trust your HAM/heavy armor in close and keep shooting. Weapon and shield if you must.

Mobile might deserve rethink, thanks.

[Corginin]

HAM drops the damage from hits.

Champion archetype is not melee specific from what I am reading. Weapon attacks are weapon attacks. Melee is not specified on pages 72-73.

Other than Ring Mail, heavy armor requires ST 13 or better.

Many of the Battlemaster Fighter Maneuvers work with any weapons and not just melee if you wanted other options.

[ZorroGames]

It looks like you need a hand to reload any Crossbow and you still get one shot whether it is Hand/Light/Heavy CB.

I think I want 1D10 over 1D8 over 1D6 with all other things being equal.

[ZorroGames]

Many of the Battlemaster Fighter Maneuvers work with any weapons and not just melee if you wanted other options.


I will reread Battlemaster again, thanks.

[nickl_2000]

It looks like you need a hand to reload any Crossbow and you still get one shot whether it is Hand/Light/Heavy CB.

I think I want 1D10 over 1D8 over 1D6 with all other things being equal.

Yes, 1 shot per round and you must have a free hand to re-load. However, if you have the Crossbow Expert feat, you can fire a crossbow more than once per round. It really is necessary if you are doing a ranged fighter build.

[ZorroGames]

Mobile still increases speed by 10 feet, even if retrograde. :smallwink:

Dash in difficult terrain still is without costing extra.

Does shooting point blank range in melee count? I would think it does not count as a melee attack. Losing the not provoking is not a huge loss.

[nickl_2000]

Does shooting point blank range in melee count? I would think it does not count as a melee attack. Losing the not provoking is not a huge loss.

No, it is still a Ranged attack. Beyond that, making a ranged attack within 5 feet of a hostile creature causes you to make the attack at disadvantage.

[ZorroGames]

Yes, 1 shot per round and you must have a free hand to re-load. However, if you have the Crossbow Expert feat, you can fire a crossbow more than once per round. It really is necessary if you are doing a ranged fighter build.
See above, CB Expert at level 6.

[nickl_2000]

See above, CB Expert at level 6.

Woops, missed that. You can also ignore the disadvantage as well since you have it.

[ZorroGames]

Okay, CH become 13.

That makes 27 points.
12 is 4, 15, is 9, repeat, 8 is 0, repeat, 13 is 5 = 27.

[ZorroGames]

Woops, missed that. You can also ignore the disadvantage as well since you have it.

No biggie, thanks for making me check. After the math error I went back to check.

[rbstr]

Crossbow Expert lets you ignore the loading property. That means you get to shoot a heavy crossbow as many times as you have an attack. That part is fine.

The character just doesn't make much sense mechanically.
You're a making a ranged dex-based character. Having more Con than dex is a bit silly. And you're really wasting a lot of resources on heavy armor. Even if you want to let yourself get up close that Heavy Armor Master could be nearly useless depending on the kinds of encounters a DM would run.
Light armor will give you nearly as much AC and make way more sense with your stats.

[ZorroGames]

So, I acknowledge that are suboptimal elements in the build.

But given it was designed for a particular character (Mountain Dwarf that had his fill of ogre breath up close and personal one too many times) :smallbiggrin: and even with an IN and WI of 8 decided there had to be a better way, how about this:

ST 14 (to allow the Heavy Armor) (12+2)
DE 15 ( for the Level 4 ASI)
CO 17 ( for the level 4 ASI, hp boost) (15+2)
IN 8
WI 8
CH 13 (nice guy, to role play balance not close to a genius)

No promise to reach level 20 but let me theorize.

Level 4 up DE and CO 1 each.
Level 6 CB expert
Level 8 HAM (character RP build and damage reduction)
Level 10 Sharpshooter (to build on level 6 feat)
Level 12/14/16 up the DE and CO for ups/shooting skill
Level 19 I have no idea.

Better given the parameters?

[ZorroGames]

?.. A hand crossbow deals more damage than the heavy because of the extra attack from crossbow master...

How?

Both need reloading. I do not see how the hand cb fires more than a LCB or HCB in Crossbow Expert Feat as written.

[Bloodcloud]

Crossbow expert allows you to make an extra shot with a hand crossbow as a bonus action. So at level 5 if all hit connects, thats 2d10+6 (17 avg) (assuming 16 dex) vs 3d6+9 (19.5 avg). The difference is even greater with sharpshooter's +10

Honestly everything works against everything in your build.

You get high AC and damage resist, but ranged attack. So you are either under utilising your range advantage or not using your high AC/HP.
You can't make OA with a range weapon, so you have no stickiness to tank effectively.
You lose one of the most significant benefit of mobile by using ranged attack, and don't nearly need the movement because you can fire in melee anyway and have a high ac, coupled with the range to reach your enemies.
Your race and subrace choice bring nothing to an archer build.
Your strenght is way higher than needed for a ranged build, but not high enough to wear full plate without a penalty.
Crossbow expert comes in a level too late, you'll be stuck at one attack for the whole of level 5.
There is zero synergy in your build.

[ZorroGames]

[QUOTE=Bloodcloud;21993875]Crossbow expert allows you to make an extra shot with a hand crossbow as a bonus action. So at level 5 if all hit connects, thats 2d10+6 (17 avg) (assuming 16 dex) vs 3d6+9 (19.5 avg). The difference is even greater with sharpshooter's +10[/QUOTE

You still need to reload correct? Where do you get the second shot from one weapon? It would be valuable if you were in melee and swinging a weapon.

I shoot HCB, I reload.

I shoot Hand CB, I reload.

I attack with a melee weapon and shoot as bonus (one shot) RAW then I reload. Where is second shot you are showing?

You do not RAW get a shot, reload, shoot again in third point on page 165.

[Mortis_Elrod]

So, I acknowledge that are suboptimal elements in the build.

But given it was designed for a particular character (Mountain Dwarf that had his fill of ogre breath up close and personal one too many times) :smallbiggrin: and even with an IN and WI of 8 decided there had to be a better way, how about this:

ST 14 (to allow the Heavy Armor) (12+2)
DE 15 ( for the Level 4 ASI)
CO 17 ( for the level 4 ASI, hp boost) (15+2)
IN 8
WI 8
CH 13 (nice guy, to role play balance not close to a genius)

No promise to reach level 20 but let me theorize.

Level 4 up DE and CO 1 each.
Level 6 CB expert
Level 8 HAM (character RP build and damage reduction)
Level 10 Sharpshooter (to build on level 6 feat)
Level 12/14/16 up the DE and CO for ups/shooting skill
Level 19 I have no idea.

Better given the parameters?

unless I'm mistaken fighter gets an extra asi or feat at 6 and not both 6 and 10 (rogue gets an extra at 10)

[ZorroGames]

Deleted frustrated comment.

WTHeck is OA?

[ZorroGames]

unless I'm mistaken fighter gets an extra asi or feat at 6 and not both 6 and 10 (rogue gets an extra at 10)
Yes, you are correct - 10 is Martial archetype feature.

[ZorroGames]

unless I'm mistaken fighter gets an extra asi or feat at 6 and not both 6 and 10 (rogue gets an extra at 10)

ASI at 4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, and 19. Not 10.

[ZorroGames]

Crossbow expert allows you to make an extra shot with a hand crossbow as a bonus action. So at level 5 if all hit connects, thats 2d10+6 (17 avg) (assuming 16 dex) vs 3d6+9 (19.5 avg). The difference is even greater with sharpshooter's +10

Honestly everything works against everything in your build.

You get high AC and damage resist, but ranged attack. So you are either under utilising your range advantage or not using your high AC/HP.
You can't make OA with a range weapon, so you have no stickiness to tank effectively.
You lose one of the most significant benefit of mobile by using ranged attack, and don't nearly need the movement because you can fire in melee anyway and have a high ac, coupled with the range to reach your enemies.
Your race and subrace choice bring nothing to an archer build.
Your strenght is way higher than needed for a ranged build, but not high enough to wear full plate without a penalty.
Crossbow expert comes in a level too late, you'll be stuck at one attack for the whole of level 5.
There is zero synergy in your build.

I am not aware what OA means.

AC and HP I remember from the past.

I never said I was going to full plate, just mentioned Chainmail.

[Mortis_Elrod]

ASI at 4, 6, 8, 12, 14, 16, and 19. Not 10.

Yes. so why do you have sharpshooter ( a feat) listed in your build . (both the quoted one and original)

[Bloodcloud]

Crossbow expert removes the loading property, so you can shoot as many times as you have attacks. Thus you have your second attack at ftr 5 and third at level 11.

Crossbow expert also allows you to shoot once more as a bonus action

Link: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats/

Read that. It should help.

OA is attack of opportunity.

Chainmail (AC16) is also worst than studded leather with 20 dex (AC 12+5 = 17)

[Bloodcloud]

Now, I realise I mght have sounded harsh, so I'm willing to help if you need a way to realise your vision.

There is no optimised way to be both heavily armored and wielding a bow or xbow with point buy stats. But, mountain dwarf with a range attack can work. Moutain dwarf wizard abjurer is pretty well regarded, tanky, armored, ready to tangle in melee. It would also work with Warlock I'd reckon, and edritch blast can be quite machine-gun like. Hex feels quite like a dwarve grudge thing.

Throw build are undersupported in 5e, but could be workable. You'd eliminate the need for dex, and streamline your build greatly. Just get your dm to handwave the drawing rule or give you a magical returning weapon.

Also, check out those class optimization guides, they are full of info and well made: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377491

[ZorroGames]

Okay, big reveal time:

And why I put the label roleplay instead of optimization on the thread.

This was s challenge character to be built as Mountain Dwarf William Tell with tons of restrictions by the challenger.

Must be a mountain dwarf. Check.

Must use a HCB after starting with a LCB because "... William Tell is not Robin Hood...". Sigh. Right, no long/short bows. Musicians with a background in Literature, humph.

Oh, of course, "No min-max munchkins," because this character is "Role Play, not Roll Play." This from someone who played zgnomes in OD&D/1st ed. AD&D? Double sigh.

Start with Chain Mail because, "... Leather gives you the forbidden Longbow." Grumble.

Sword and Board "just because." "No polearms" implied. At this point I just went with the flow...

LCB to start (see above.)

Pack? "Whatever."

Oh and don't tell any of the forums "Why" until after this last weekend - pity because of forum withdrawal? I'll take the pity.

Okay.

So I took the challenge. And I ended up with a 20 level build trying to match those "parameters" aka chains.

Optimization fail but I might just try this character after all the work.

[ZorroGames]

Crossbow expert removes the loading property, so you can shoot as many times as you have attacks. Thus you have your second attack at ftr 5 and third at level 11.

Crossbow expert also allows you to shoot once more as a bonus action

Link: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sageadvice_feats/

Read that. It should help.

OA is attack of opportunity.

Chainmail (AC16) is also worst than studded leather with 20 dex (AC 12+5 = 17)

See my insane challenge above. 😤😳🙄🤣

Thanks, I will check your links out. This anchor is being to appeal to me as a challenge as she knew it would.

[ZorroGames]

Crossbow Expert lets you ignore the loading property. That means you get to shoot a heavy crossbow as many times as you have an attack. That part is fine.

The character just doesn't make much sense mechanically.
You're a making a ranged dex-based character. Having more Con than dex is a bit silly. And you're really wasting a lot of resources on heavy armor. Even if you want to let yourself get up close that Heavy Armor Master could be nearly useless depending on the kinds of encounters a DM would run.
Light armor will give you nearly as much AC and make way more sense with your stats.

Yeah, see my challenge reveal above.

[ZorroGames]

So, before I show what I ended up with, let me get a clarification on two Feats.

CB Expert, I think I understand and with a HCB kiss off the third point about melee and Hand CBs. Shoot fast, shoot often, shoot up close and personal without disadvantage.

Sharpshooter pretty much piles on with the no disadvantage at long range, the cover removals for half/three-quarter, and the option of -5 to get +10 damage.

In a dungeon maybe not so relevant but in the open field maybe quite useful.

So, am I understanding these two feats correctly?

[ZorroGames]

Okay here is where this challenge character ended up.

If I decide to play this character ever this is not how I would build it (and I still put role play in front of mechanical optimization.). * = where I would make changes in my char.)

Mountain Dwarf Fighter (William Tell model)

Point buy.

ST 14+2 *
CO 14+2 (because HPs always help)
DE 14
IN 10 (because I don't like excessive dump stats)
WI 10 *
CH 10 *

Chain Mail *
Rapier and Shield
LCB (buy HCB soonest)
Explorer's pack

Background Guild Artisan (Woodcarvers, Coopers, and BOWYERS)

Level and choice:

1) Fighting Style +2 Archery
2) Action Surge
3) Martial Archtype Champion
4) DE=16
5) Extra attack
6) Cross Bow Expert
7) Martial Archtype Feature - Imp. Crit.
8) DE=18
9) Indomitable
10) (via Champion) Fighting style Defense (+1 AC).
11) Extra Attack (2)
12) Sharpshooter
13) Indomitable (2)
14) De=20
15) Martial Archtype Feature Super Crit.
16) CO=18
17) Action Surge (2) Indomitable (3)
18) Survivor
19) CO=20
20) Extra Attack (3)

Again, not how I would build William Tell of the Dwarves exactly but it satisfied my challenger.

Thanks for letting me ramble.