Methods for mass destruction (i.e. crater-creating spells/attacks and such)?

[Schattenbach]

Of course, there's epic spellcasting (and when increasing the damage dices to d20 and/or using specific epic spell factors from Champions of Ruin that make area and/or damage scale with caster level, any Energy and/or Destroy seed based attacks become quite a bit scarier at destroying things ... what with CLx20 untyped destroy seed based damage combined up to 4xCLx20 of various energy types within CLx20 feet radius ... and making Rain of Fire's area and/or damage scale with caster level might be enough to burn some mountain range to the ground over these 20 hours or to raze entire countries if they don't have something to block it.) ... but what other things are there to (besides Control Wind or Earthquake as typical means to destroy lots of things) are there that are good at ruining stuff (either through physical attacks or through AoE that's actually powerful enough to destroy some pesky wall made out of stone)? Disintegrate continues to destroy pretty much all layers of nonmagical stuff in its way through its special effect, while things like Firestorm (with some additional metamagic put on top of it, I guess) might be able to raze quite a bit (assuming we're talking about Packed Earth) of ground (if one so wishes), but they still lack the necessary punch to do anything much to actual stone and such (assuming we're not talking about something quite high powered epic level thing like some Firestorm with Energy Admixture (Sonic), Intensify and Searing used by some caster that increases the cap to something like 40d6 or so, and even that might not be enough unless one actually manages to target the same square multipe times at once). Things might get a lot easier if one rules that non-stronghold structures don't use the layered walls as such (and are also destroyed inch for inch), but otherwise, it seems quite hard to actually wreck (solid) stuff (regular soil and such is the expection to that, I guess), or did I miss someting? Even the breath weapons of (most) dragons are quite disappointing in that regard.

Anyway, I'm interested what decent ways there are to wreck the landscape, damage or destroy and mountains such, etc.

Has someone some helpful advice and/or some interesting ideas?

Thanks in advance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorcerer 9
Domain Access ACF (CC) for the Creation domain (SC) so you have Create Water as a 1st level Sorcerer spell.
Take Sanctum Spell (CA), a +0 metamagic feat that decreases the spell's effective level by one when used outside your designated sanctum, similar to how Heighten Spell works.
Take Rapid Metamagic (CM) so your metamagic spells don't have an increased casting time.

One standard action and one 4th level spell slot: Cast Arcane Fusion (CM) > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > etc.

[Segev]

Geas a beholder into disintegrating the mountain? It'd take a while, but he could do it.

[The_Jette]

Sorcerer 9
Domain Access ACF (CC) for the Creation domain (SC) so you have Create Water as a 1st level Sorcerer spell.
Take Sanctum Spell (CA), a +0 metamagic feat that decreases the spell's effective level by one when used outside your designated sanctum, similar to how Heighten Spell works.
Take Rapid Metamagic (CM) so your metamagic spells don't have an increased casting time.

One standard action and one 4th level spell slot: Cast Arcane Fusion (CM) > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > Cast a Create Water and a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion > etc.

Would this really work? Sanctum spell says that the spell slot needed to cast the spell is the same as normal, which indicates that it would still count as a 5th level spell to prepare, and that Arcane Fusion would count itself as a 5th level spell for the purposes of the fusion, it would just be treated as a 4th level spell for the purposes of DCs and Globes of Invulnerability. At least, that's how I read it...

[JNAProductions]

Would this really work? Sanctum spell says that the spell slot needed to cast the spell is the same as normal, which indicates that it would still count as a 5th level spell to prepare, and that Arcane Fusion would count itself as a 5th level spell for the purposes of the fusion, it would just be treated as a 4th level spell for the purposes of DCs and Globes of Invulnerability. At least, that's how I read it...

Then what would be the point of Sanctum spell? You decrease your spell level for what benefit?

[The_Jette]

Then what would be the point of Sanctum spell? You decrease your spell level for what benefit?

The decrease in level is not the benefit of the Sanctum spell. It's the cost of casting it outside of your Sanctum. The benefit of Sanctum spell is that it counts as a higher level spell while inside your sanctum. So, your Sanctum Fireball you prepared in your 3rd level spell-slot acts as a 4th level spell inside your sanctum, but only a 2nd outside it, effectively being weaker because you're outside of your Sanctum. It's a give and take kind of thing, and really only useful for NPC villains who aren't leaving their home because they're too busy fighting off random adventurer's.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Arcane Fusion doesn't say it lets you cast a spell that would be prepared in a 4th level slot, it says it lets you cast a 4th level spell.

You can use Sanctum Spell with a 4th level spell to use a Lesser Metamagic Rod (3rd or lower) with it.

You can use Sanctum Spell with a 4th level spell to put it in a Spell Storing weapon (3rd or lower).

You can use Sanctum Spell with a 5th level spell to make it count as a 4th level spell in order to cast it via Arcane Fusion.

[ATHATH]

The legality of the Sanctum Spell+Arcane Fusion combo has been debated for a long time- can we all just accept that different people/DMs will have different interpretations as to how they interact and move on (at least while in this thread)?

Didn't Red Fel make a Collateral Damage Man thread/competition a while back?

[The_Jette]

Arcane Fusion doesn't say it lets you cast a spell that would be prepared in a 4th level slot, it says it lets you cast a 4th level spell.

You can use Sanctum Spell with a 4th level spell to use a Lesser Metamagic Rod (3rd or lower) with it.

You can use Sanctum Spell with a 4th level spell to put it in a Spell Storing weapon (3rd or lower).

You can use Sanctum Spell with a 5th level spell to make it count as a 4th level spell in order to cast it via Arcane Fusion.

I'm still not convinced this is how it should work, since Sanctum spell changes the effective level, not the actual level. It's supposed to be a penalty for casting your Sanctum spell outside of your Sanctum, not a beneficial ability. But, starting an argument over interpretation would do no good, so I guess it's up to the individual DMs to determine if this would work. In my opinion, it wouldn't. But, it's obvious that most people are of the other opinion. So, I'm just gonna bow out.

[icefractal]

However,

When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know.
It refers to spells known, not to spells being cast. Sanctum Arcane Fusion becomes a 4th level spell when you cast it, not before. It isn't even a 4th level spell when it's prepared ... it's either a 5th level or a [unknown] level spell. It's debatable if you even "know" Sanctum Arcane Fusion at all - it isn't appearing on your spells known list, and would you say that owning a Lesser Rod of Empower means you "know" Empowered Fireball? But even if you did count as knowing it, it wouldn't be a 4th level spell until it was cast.


Or to use another WotC game with more solid rules as an example -

Kithkin spells and Soldier spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.

X: Until end of turn, creatures you control have base power and toughness X/X and gain all creature types.
If you use Mirror Entity, can you cast a normally non-Soldier creature like Spellskite for 1 less?
No. Because Spellskite isn’t a creature you control until it reaches the battlefield. The fact that it’s going to be a Soldier once you cast it doesn’t mean it qualifies.

[Segev]

Sanctum Spell shenanigans are more fun, to me, for shoving 4th level spells into arrows of spell-storing.

[Anthrowhale]

The_Jette is correct. Sanctum Arcane Fusion does not work because the Arcane Fusion uses the slot not the spell level and the slot is unchanged. There is one plausible positive use for a decrease in spell level associated with Invoke Magic.

For blowing things up, the baseline spell is 'Erupt' from Serpent Kingdoms. A Hathran Cleric using Circle Magic to hit caster level 40 does 400 fire damage (Fort/2) in a 4000' radius that explicitly damages objects.

The other two standouts are Flash Frost Fimbulwinter (40 damage in a 40 mile radius with circle magic) and Apocalypse from the Sky (10d6 {Fire,Acid, or Sonic} in 400 mile(!) radius).

[Segev]

There's also the classic locate city bomb.

[Anthrowhale]

Arcane Fusion doesn't say it lets you cast a spell that would be prepared in a 4th level slot, it says it lets you cast a 4th level spell.
...
You can use Sanctum Spell with a 5th level spell to make it count as a 4th level spell in order to cast it via Arcane Fusion.

If you believe this, then you believe that Arcane Fusion[Searing Maximized Empowered Energy Admixture[Fire] Twin Orb of Fire, Searing Maximized Empowered Energy Admixture[Fire] Twin Lesser Orb of Fire] is legal since Searing Maximized Empowered Energy Admixture[Fire] Twin Orb of Fire is a 4th level spell.

However, the Arcane Fusion errata says:

If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.

In this context "adjusted spell level" is the metamagic adjusted spell slot. The metamagic adjusted spell slot of Sanctum Arcane Fusion is L5, and this errata makes clear that Searing Maximized Empowered Energy Admixture[Fire] Twin Orb of Fire is not legal.

[Jowgen]

You may be interested in perusing my arsenal (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480986-The-Voidstone-Arsenal-For-when-you-really-want-stuff-gone).

[Matrota]

You can always use the wightocalypse/locate city bomb.

Feats required: Fell Drain Spell (LM), Snowcasting (FB), Flash Frost Spell (PH2).

Spells required: Summon Component (1st, CM), Locate City (1st, RoD).

Get within 100 miles of the city, cast Summon Component (1st, swift) for a handful of snow, use Snowcasting to cast Flash Frost (+1) Fell Drain (+2) Locate City (4th). Everything in a 10 mile per caster level radius is covered in a layer of ice, and every creature in that area takes 2 cold damage. Anyone damaged by it also gains a negative level.

Spam this spell/metamagic combo until you run out of 4th and 5th level spells.

Anyone who gains as many negative levels as their hit dice is killed and becomes a Wight (uncontrolled). Every low level commoner, expert, and warrior in the city turns into a Wight, and turns on any of their neighbors who managed to survive. Anyone slain by the Wights becomes one as well.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Zancloufer]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17769136&postcount=35

Collateral Damage man. You pretty much turn an unsuspecting commoner into a walking catastrophe. I mean it's only 216 sonic damage per round in a 40' radius, but has a chance to send survivors flying and will allow your target to literally walk through castles and mountains.

[Braininthejar2]

Have some cross-class ranks in knowledge: architecture and engineering. Use summon nature's ally to summon thoqquas. drill red hot tunnels through walls, earth and rock.

[flappeercraft]

You can always get thousands of 100 Ton rocks and Shrink them down with Shrink Object with the same command word and put them into a golden bag of holding, then use Greater Teleport into the Mesosphere and open it upside down and scream the command word.


The legality of the Sanctum Spell+Arcane Fusion combo has been debated for a long time- can we all just accept that different people/DMs will have different interpretations as to how they interact and move on (at least while in this thread)?

Didn't Red Fel make a Collateral Damage Man thread/competition a while back?

He did. Here is what I like to call the Body of the Fun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17769136&postcount=35)

[Gruftzwerg]

How about mass clone production? Infinite "Body outside Body" cheese to fill the multiverse with clones of yourself until everything else gets squeezed to death?^^

> BoBaFeat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503665-quot-TO-BoBaFeat-quot-Body-outside-Body-amp-Moment-of-Clarity)

[Calthropstu]

Telekenesis can hurl boulders like a siege engine.
Meteor swarm can punch a breach in a wall.
Summoned monsters such as a trex or earth elementals can wreck some serious devestation.
Polymorph any object can remove entire sections of wall, and if you turn it into a powerful monster it will destroy even more.
Transmute rock to mud can topple buildings by turning bedrock they are built on.
A gate opened to an evil plane will level a city if done right.
The bag of holding/portable hole trick can destabilize a building when a portion of it is pulled out of the prime material.
Fireball will ignite a thatch roof.

[ShurikVch]

Destroying the world as we know it, a Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?227513-Destroying-the-world-as-we-know-it-a-Handbook)
Some of those methods could be scaled down to destroy just some limited part of the world
(Especially #7, 14, and 19)

[Calthropstu]

I think you guys are going out of scope here. Earthquakes (and the other stuff mentioned in the op) are hardly "destroy the world" type of spells.
It sounds like he is looking for tricks to obliterate a town or smash through a fortress... not make the earth explode.

[Fizban]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17769136&postcount=35

Collateral Damage man. You pretty much turn an unsuspecting commoner into a walking catastrophe. I mean it's only 216 sonic damage per round in a 40' radius, but has a chance to send survivors flying and will allow your target to literally walk through castles and mountains.
At least until the ground is pulverized from beneath him and the only direction available to walk is down.

[Calthropstu]

At least until the ground is pulverized from beneath him and the only direction available to walk is down.

Yeah, the life expectancy of that commoner is not very long.

[Red Fel]

Didn't Red Fel make a Collateral Damage Man thread/competition a while back?

I did. And people have focused on the "Body of the Fun" post from that thread. But I'd like to point out a different one: Dragonmarks.

See, the neat thing about Dragonmarks is that anybody of the appropriate race could potentially have one. Even someone with levels in Commoner.

Anyhow, in that thread everyone loves, user avr posted this idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17763931&postcount=3): a Commoner/ Dragonmarked Heir with the Lesser Mark of Storm. I became somewhat enamored of the idea, and started a separate thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363006-Building-a-Tempest) to explore it.

The basic premise is that the Lesser Mark of Storm gives you, as an SLA, Control Winds. At a high enough CL, which is pretty straightforward that SLA lets you conjure a massive tornado. Specifically, one with a radius of about 720 feet, which lasts for about 3 hours. So, pretty heavily destructive - anything that isn't underground or a single uniform block of earth is basically going to be torn apart. Everything in the radius is making a save every round - that's every 6 seconds. After 1800 saves, you're pretty much guaranteed to fail at least one, and once you do, the highly destructive wind does the rest.

And again, it's something any Half-Elf can use. Literally any. Once a day (or twice with the right class levels), a three-hour tornado destroys target city. A tornado you control, and can redirect, weaken, strengthen, or shape. Have fun with that.

[The_Jette]

I did. And people have focused on the "Body of the Fun" post from that thread. But I'd like to point out a different one: Dragonmarks.

See, the neat thing about Dragonmarks is that anybody of the appropriate race could potentially have one. Even someone with levels in Commoner.

Anyhow, in that thread everyone loves, user avr posted this idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17763931&postcount=3): a Commoner/ Dragonmarked Heir with the Lesser Mark of Storm. I became somewhat enamored of the idea, and started a separate thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363006-Building-a-Tempest) to explore it.

The basic premise is that the Lesser Mark of Storm gives you, as an SLA, Control Winds. At a high enough CL, which is pretty straightforward that SLA lets you conjure a massive tornado. Specifically, one with a radius of about 720 feet, which lasts for about 3 hours. So, pretty heavily destructive - anything that isn't underground or a single uniform block of earth is basically going to be torn apart. Everything in the radius is making a save every round - that's every 6 seconds. After 1800 saves, you're pretty much guaranteed to fail at least one, and once you do, the highly destructive wind does the rest.

And again, it's something any Half-Elf can use. Literally any. Once a day (or twice with the right class levels), a three-hour tornado destroys target city. A tornado you control, and can redirect, weaken, strengthen, or shape. Have fun with that.

Last I checked, Control Winds was the Greater Dragonmark. It's just as easy to get, needing only the race and two previous dragonmark levels, but also has a minimum level of 9, since you need 12 ranks in two skills.

[Red Fel]

Last I checked, Control Winds was the Greater Dragonmark. It's just as easy to get, needing only the race and two previous dragonmark levels, but also has a minimum level of 9, since you need 12 ranks in two skills.

Huh, you're right. Least was Gust. It has been awhile, my bad. But yeah, still easy enough to get.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help thus far and sorry for the late reply. After the forum was done for a while, I somehow forgot about this thread.

When not ignoring the rules from the stronghold builders guide, blowing up somewhat more powerful structures seems quite difficult, because one supposedly has to first wreck that 10-to-10 feet section to damage the layer below/behind. As those sections can have quite a bit of HP (5 ft. thick section of unworked stone has 900 HP, 3 in. thick section of ubworked stone has 90 HP, 6 in. of wood has 60 hp, 1 ft. thick section of Masonry has 90 HP, 3 ft. thick section of Hewn stone has 540 HP, while - according to the Stronghold builder's handbook ... though now that I think about it ... was packed Earth stated out anywhere else in DnD 3.5/D20 modern/D20 future? - the typical 3ft. thick layer of packed earth has measly 30 HP, even if these 30 HP are likely still enough to survive not fully powered fire balls), unworked stone and Hewn stone in particular, and, because they're objects, most energy damage and such dealt to such layers of material is greatly reduced.

So what I'm looking for is something that fullfills at the very least the following criterias ...

# has enough damage output to blast through at least one layer of material (lets use unworked Stone with its 900 HP per layer and insignificant 8 hardness here as benchmark ... which is actually quite difficult, as most things - even most epic spells - just don#t do nearly enough damage for that) ... one could rule also ignore the rule from the stronghold builders handbook and damage the material per inch or feet instead (which at least makes it easier to destroy), if there is no decent alternative at hand or doing otherwise would be too much of a hassle, though, so its fine to suggest stuff that somewhat ignores this (in this case maybe even somewhat silly) rule and instead assumes 1 ft. or 1 inch thick material layers that one has to get through.
# continues to inflict its full regular damage (i.e. the layers that it destroyes beforehand don't suckup its damage output, which would've resulted in only leftover damage damaging the next layer of material) to the layers of material damage until either stopped by something it cannot destroy or it reaches the end of its area of effect.

As it's been mentioned before ... how well would collisio/impact damage from heavy objects (like through incredibly heavy and/or fast objects) do?

[Anthrowhale]

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17773363&postcount=61) does 2300 acid damage (full damage to objects not 1/2 or 1/4) in a 4 mile radius.

[Gruftzwerg]

# has enough damage output to blast through at least one layer of material (lets use unworked Stone with its 900 HP per layer and insignificant 8 hardness here as benchmark ...
...
# continues to inflict its full regular damage (i.e. the layers that it destroyes beforehand don't suckup its damage output, which would've resulted in only leftover damage damaging the next layer of material) to the layers of material damage until either stopped by something it cannot destroy or it reaches the end of its area of effect.


I can offer you my clawlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish&p=21828287#post21828287)build: (4attacks per full attack)
min. dmg per Hit= 284 dmg
average dmg per Hit= 680 dmg
max dmg per Hit= 1087 dmg


With pounce every turn (due to Stagger) it should be not much of a problem to get rid of a stone wall or a lil mountain with a lil bit more time^^.

As far as I know there are not many (read different) builds for this task. Either you go for some kind of ubercharger (I would recommend Stagger for max dmg all the time), or find yourself an optimized blaster build (but I don't know many with that high DPR).

[Bebbit]

Thanks for the help thus far and sorry for the late reply. After the forum was done for a while, I somehow forgot about this thread.

When not ignoring the rules from the stronghold builders guide, blowing up somewhat more powerful structures seems quite difficult, because one supposedly has to first wreck that 10-to-10 feet section to damage the layer below/behind. As those sections can have quite a bit of HP (5 ft. thick section of unworked stone has 900 HP, 3 in. thick section of ubworked stone has 90 HP, 6 in. of wood has 60 hp, 1 ft. thick section of Masonry has 90 HP, 3 ft. thick section of Hewn stone has 540 HP, while - according to the Stronghold builder's handbook ... though now that I think about it ... was packed Earth stated out anywhere else in DnD 3.5/D20 modern/D20 future? - the typical 3ft. thick layer of packed earth has measly 30 HP, even if these 30 HP are likely still enough to survive not fully powered fire balls), unworked stone and Hewn stone in particular, and, because they're objects, most energy damage and such dealt to such layers of material is greatly reduced.

So what I'm looking for is something that fullfills at the very least the following criterias ...

# has enough damage output to blast through at least one layer of material (lets use unworked Stone with its 900 HP per layer and insignificant 8 hardness here as benchmark ... which is actually quite difficult, as most things - even most epic spells - just don#t do nearly enough damage for that) ... one could rule also ignore the rule from the stronghold builders handbook and damage the material per inch or feet instead (which at least makes it easier to destroy), if there is no decent alternative at hand or doing otherwise would be too much of a hassle, though, so its fine to suggest stuff that somewhat ignores this (in this case maybe even somewhat silly) rule and instead assumes 1 ft. or 1 inch thick material layers that one has to get through.
# continues to inflict its full regular damage (i.e. the layers that it destroyes beforehand don't suckup its damage output, which would've resulted in only leftover damage damaging the next layer of material) to the layers of material damage until either stopped by something it cannot destroy or it reaches the end of its area of effect.

As it's been mentioned before ... how well would collisio/impact damage from heavy objects (like through incredibly heavy and/or fast objects) do?

Level 6 Summon Nature's Ally gives you Oreads (FF 134). They can cast Earthquake 1/day, which deals 100 damage to structures, bypassing hardness and not reduced by half.
Use higher level slots to summon more and you can get a decent amount, increasing the damage they can do. Plus they each get Transmute Rock to Mud 3/day, which can help even more.

[TallerSpine]

This build has been around a while, but still awesome.

Half-ogre (the Races of Destiny version) barbarian 5, warhulk 10, hulking hurler 3
Figure out its medium load (a few million pounds, IIRC), have some mages fabricate a massive iron ball (I think I calculated it to be somewhere around 3 feet in diameter). Have the mages enchant it with the returning property. A single hit deals hundreds of thousands of d6's of damage. If that doesn't make it through the hewn stone, I don't know what will!

[Baby Gary]

an easy way to destroy a lot of stuff with a 1st level commoner. guess what it is (hint it is a flaw) get the pig bound flaw on a commoner and watch the city be destroyed, along with the commomer