E6 Dread Necromancer

[tedcahill2]

How well does the dread necromancer hold up in an E6 campaign?

[nolongerchaos]

It's a little tricky to say. They've got their fear aura but are a level shy of their pretty cool familiar. It's E6, so you can pick one up with some feats though.

More problematic is your lack of Animate Dead, being a 4th level spell for DNs, on top of not getting Undead Mastery at 8th level. You'd need Arcane Disciple for a Death good or something like Fell Animate and metamagic reducers in order to get reliable undead creation, and then some of the Corpsecrafter line to get undead equivalent to a non-E6 DN.

Aside from the hang-up with making your own undead, the DN has a pretty solid chassis for E6: enough spells known to make a sorceror quite envious, DR/bludgeoning AND magic, a fear Aura, a hard-to-resist touch attack, and for the cost of a feat, unlimited out of combat self-healing.

In a nutshell, creating undead will likely take a large amount of investment, but if that's not your focus, then you've got a lot to work with.

[ATHATH]

If you're having trouble finding some undead to Rebuke, you could have an Artificer friend create some Robes of Bones (https://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x).

[OldTrees1]

It's a little tricky to say. They've got their fear aura but are a level shy of their pretty cool familiar. It's E6, so you can pick one up with some feats though.

More problematic is your lack of Animate Dead, being a 4th level spell for DNs, on top of not getting Undead Mastery at 8th level. You'd need Arcane Disciple for a Death good or something like Fell Animate and metamagic reducers in order to get reliable undead creation, and then some of the Corpsecrafter line to get undead equivalent to a non-E6 DN.

Aside from the hang-up with making your own undead, the DN has a pretty solid chassis for E6: enough spells known to make a sorceror quite envious, DR/bludgeoning AND magic, a fear Aura, a hard-to-resist touch attack, and for the cost of a feat, unlimited out of combat self-healing.

In a nutshell, creating undead will likely take a large amount of investment, but if that's not your focus, then you've got a lot to work with.

Animate Dead can be picked up as a 2nd level spell at 4th level via Advanced Learning. (Undead Master adds 2nd level Animate Dead as an option to select)
Edit: Forgot it was 2nd

[nolongerchaos]

Animate Dead can be picked up as a 1st level spell at 4th level via Advanced Learning. (Undead Master adds 1st level Animate Dead as an option to select)

I don't think I've seen that before. What book is it from?

[OldTrees1]

I don't think I've seen that before. What book is it from?

Dragon Compendium Vol 1 is the splatbook in question
https://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Compendium-Dungeons-Dragons-Vol/dp/0977007146

[Inevitability]

Er... the Death Master has Animate Dead as a 2nd-level spell, not a 1st-level spell. Precocious Apprentice or Extra Spell would work, but Advanced Learning wouldn't (not unless you get two levels of casting-advancing PrCs before taking your fourth Dread Necromancer level).

[OldTrees1]

Er... the Death Master has Animate Dead as a 2nd-level spell, not a 1st-level spell. Precocious Apprentice or Extra Spell would work, but Advanced Learning wouldn't (not unless you get two levels of casting-advancing PrCs before taking your fourth Dread Necromancer level).

Thanks for the correction. However the 4th level Advanced Learning can still select a 2nd level Necromancy spell (they can select "a level no higher than that of the highest"). It is the alternate class feature that is limited to 1 lower.

[Inevitability]

Thanks for the correction. However the 4th level Advanced Learning can still select a 2nd level Necromancy spell (they can select "a level no higher than that of the highest"). It is the alternate class feature that is limited to 1 lower.

Problem solved, then.

[Gemini476]

Thanks for the correction. However the 4th level Advanced Learning can still select a 2nd level Necromancy spell (they can select "a level no higher than that of the highest"). It is the alternate class feature that is limited to 1 lower.

Unfortunately, though:

Advanced Learning (Ex): At 4th level, a dread necromancer can add a new spell to her list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a cleric or wizard spell of the necromancy school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the dread necromancer already knows. Once a new spell is selected, it is added to that dread necromancer's spell list and can be cast just like any other spell she knows. If a spell is both a cleric spell and a wizard spell, use the lower of the two spell levels (when different) to determine what level the spell is for a dread necromancer. A dread necromancer gains an additional new spell at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.


The Death Master is neither a Cleric nor a Wizard, I think, so that's an issue.

So yeah, you'll need to go Dread Necromancer 3/Full casting PrC 2/Dread Necromancer 1 if you want Animate Dead. Unfortunately that's easier said than done - there's not a lot of full-casting PrCs that a spontaneous class can enter at level 4. I certainly can't think of any off the top of my head.

[Lazymancer]

@Gemini476: I think, the only real option is Paragnostic Apostle via having 3rd-level spell-like ability. Lesser planetouched (both aasimar with Daylight and tiefling with Deeper Darkness - via feat) qualify.

You can also try for Anima Mage, but it needs 3 feats (provided Versatile Spellcaster is ruled as granting next level spell). If you are going to waste feats, Arcane Disciple of some death god (Death/Grave/Undeath domains) is much better option. You don't cast Animate often and it doesn't require saving throws.

[Fouredged Sword]

This is one of those cases that, as DM, I would allow a level 6 dread necromancer to take a feat to pick up animate dead as a ritual spell taking an hour per HD of undead you raise to cast. Access to a single 4th level spell as a ritual for a class based around that spell seems fine for the power level of E6.

Before you get that feat you are still pretty viable, not so much as a caster but rather the fact that you are tanky and likely undead so you have a ton of immunities. You will be stuck with native undead, but finding a few human skeletons wandering around a cursed area shouldn't be TOO hard, and you can always purchase an artificer made scroll of animate dead or two to tide you over.

[Gemini476]

If Versatile Spellcaster counts as casting higher-level spells, can't you just get Animate Dead through that method?

[DEMON]

When everything else fails, Arcane Discpile (Death or Undeath) should do the trick, provided you have 13+ WIS.

Edit: Yeah, I just noticed this was already suggested a few times, so that's what I get for being blind.

Anyways, Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell as your 1st/3rd level feats should also work, allowing you to pick AM with Advanced Learning at 4th level.

[Lazymancer]

If Versatile Spellcaster counts as casting higher-level spells, can't you just get Animate Dead through that method?
While GM might allow early access to 2nd-level spells, it's unlikely he'll give access to 4th-level spells. It's E6, after all.

[DEMON]

While GM might allow early access to 2nd-level spells, it's unlikely he'll give access to 4th-level spells. It's E6, after all.

You only need to get access to 3rd level spells as 4th level, so you can take it off the Cleric's list with Advanced Learning.
Normally, you have access to level 2 spells at 4th, so Versatile Spellcaster (+Heighten Spell, if need be) should qualify you.

[Gemini476]

While GM might allow early access to 2nd-level spells, it's unlikely he'll give access to 4th-level spells. It's E6, after all.

If the DM won't allow the Dread Necromancer to grab 4th-level Animate Dead through Versatile Spellcaster cheese, I find myself doubtful that they'd allow them to grab 3rd-level Animate Dead through a different variety of Versatile Spellcaster gouda.

(You aren't getting 2nd-level Animate Dead, after all - it's not a Cleric or Wizard spell.)

[Zanos]

Er... the Death Master has Animate Dead as a 2nd-level spell, not a 1st-level spell. Precocious Apprentice or Extra Spell would work, but Advanced Learning wouldn't (not unless you get two levels of casting-advancing PrCs before taking your fourth Dread Necromancer level).
You might be better off just playing a Death Master, actually. The best thing about Dread Necromancer for undead comes at 8th level, which obviously never happens in E6.

[nolongerchaos]

You only need to get access to 3rd level spells as 4th level, so you can take it off the Cleric's list with Advanced Learning.
Normally, you have access to level 2 spells at 4th, so Versatile Spellcaster (+Heighten Spell, if need be) should qualify you.

Advanced Leaning requires the spell to be one level below the highest you can cast, so you'd actually need access to 4th level spells to pick up Animate Dead as a Cleric spell. I offered what suggestions I did in my earlier post because, as mentioned twice now I believe, I can't imagine a DM that wants to run an E6 game being happy with such obvious cheese.

(And don't try to say there's no cheese trying to gain regular enough access to 4th level spells so you can learn and cast that 3rd level spell at level 4 in a game-type designed to only have regular access to 3rd level spells. The DM has chosen a low power cap for a reason, and probably won't appreciate such antics.)

[DEMON]

If the DM won't allow the Dread Necromancer to grab 4th-level Animate Dead through Versatile Spellcaster cheese, I find myself doubtful that they'd allow them to grab 3rd-level Animate Dead through a different variety of Versatile Spellcaster gouda.

(You aren't getting 2nd-level Animate Dead, after all - it's not a Cleric or Wizard spell.)

It depends.

Getting access to 4th level spells could be seen as a dangerous precedence for said DM. But he might look more favorably on spending your only Advanced Learning to add a single 3rd level spell, that is normally on your spell list (albeit at a 4th level) and is also a 3rd level Cleric spell (so it's already available in E6 campaign through Clerics).

Or, the DM could just provide this to his player as a capstone feat (Animate Dead as spell like ability usable once per day, req: 6 levels of Dread Necromancer) and be done with it. No need for cheese or workarounds at all, everyone is happy.

[DEMON]

Advanced Leaning requires the spell to be one level below the highest you can cast, so you'd actually need access to 4th level spells to pick up Animate Dead as a Cleric spell. I offered what suggestions I did in my earlier post because, as mentioned twice now I believe, I can't imagine a DM that wants to run an E6 game being happy with such obvious cheese.

(And don't try to say there's no cheese trying to gain regular enough access to 4th level spells so you can learn and cast that 3rd level spell at level 4 in a game-type designed to only have regular access to 3rd level spells. The DM has chosen a low power cap for a reason, and probably won't appreciate such antics.)

No, it does not:



The spell must be a cleric or wizard spell of the necromancy school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the dread necromancer already knows

If you know 3rd level spells, you can pick a 3rd level Cleric spells with advanced learning. The spell itself is already freely available in an E6 campaign as 3rd level spell, just not on the regular DNs spell list.

I'm not going to argue with the rest of your post, it's irrelevant for this discussion, I'm not even suggesting regular access to 4ths.

[Zanos]

You might have some problems using AL to take a 3rd level spell at your 4th class level, when you don't know 3rd level spells.

But yeah, Clerics and Death Masters anyone with Arcane Discipline with certain domains can all cast Animate Dead in an E6 campaign.

[DEMON]

You might have some problems using AL to take a 3rd level spell at your 4th class level, when you don't know 3rd level spells.

But yeah, Clerics and Death Masters anyone with Arcane Discipline with certain domains can all cast Animate Dead in an E6 campaign.

Versatile Spellcaster could work with a willing DM, Versatile Spellcaster and Highten Spell should work RAW.

If a DM does not allow that, there's still Arcane Disciple, or just good old wands (this option might not work, either, depending on how the DM handles spells on a class' spell list that are unavailable to 6th level caster of a particular class).

[Lazymancer]

You might have some problems using AL to take a 3rd level spell at your 4th class level, when you don't know 3rd level spells.
The "not knowing" bit is debatable. The class is poorly worded. It's the chicken or the egg problem, basically.


Since DN clearly doesn't know spells until he "gains access" to them, strict interpretation of prerequisites for "gaining access" as "already knowing spells" will prohibit DN from knowing any spells whatsoever. It's not like Dread Necromancer can know spells before he would learn them.

Therefore, the only reasonable interpretation of "gaining access" is the potential to cast spells, not actually "knowing" spells already. And Versatile Spellcaster provides such potential.

I.e. it's not cut-and-dried that RAW Dread Necromancer should not get spells of the next spell level via Versatile Spellcaster.

[Fouredged Sword]

This is E6. The whole thing is an addition tacked on to the existing system. If the DM wants to screw you over he will, full stop. "If DM willing" can be tacked on to everything.

[Zanos]

Yeah, I don't think most E6 DMs are going to be huge fans of ultra-technical rules debates so that you can get unintentional advantages.

[Lazymancer]

Hey, I'm not the one suggesting use of Versatile Spellcaster to get to the 4th level spells in E6 (it's the opposite, in fact).

I'm simply pointing out that you can't say that Versatile Spellcaster unambiguously does not grant access to next spell level.

[Godskook]

Runestaves and Knowstones are options?

[Gemini476]

Runestaves and Knowstones are options?

They both require you to have them on your spell list and IIRC be of high enough level to cast the spells normally, which would make them pretty pointless for fixed-list casters.

[Fouredged Sword]

Depending on the reading Extra Spell may be an option. Another odd option may be to take a Chameleon level at level 6 to gain access to every 2nd level spell in the game.