How bad is the Seeker class?

[Marcloure]

From time to time I read people saying that the Seeker is one of the weakest classes of D&D 4E. I'm not fully aware of what he does, aside from being kind a "druid archer", but I think the class concept interesting to say the least.
As I'm not sure about the impact of a character with the class in game, I came to ask here. Is the class weak like "just don't pick it, ever" or more like "there are almost always a better choice"? And how far behind it is from the rest? Can it be good with the right build? Finally, for what reason more precisely it is considered a bad class?

[ThePurple]

Is the class weak like "just don't pick it, ever" or more like "there are almost always a better choice"?

The latter. 4e was designed with balance in mind so even the *worst* class is still going to be functional.


Finally, for what reason more precisely it is considered a bad class?

Seeker, like Runepriest, is bad primarily because it lacks the sheer breadth of splat-content that classes that were released earlier in 4e's run received. Both of them have a lot of potential, but there wasn't any follow up to that. While it's not entirely *intentional*, there's an extremely strong correlation between the amount of additional content that is created for a class and the power level of the class.

[Kurald Galain]

As I'm not sure about the impact of a character with the class in game, I came to ask here. Is the class weak like "just don't pick it, ever" or more like "there are almost always a better choice"?

That depends on what you're looking for.

If you want a controller, as which the seeker is advertised, then the answer is "just don't pick it, ever". Control is all about large area effects (which the seeker lacks), inflicting nasty conditions (the seeker barely gets beyond slow/prone, and does so about ten levels later than any serious controller), and zone/wall powers (which the seeker doesn't get at all). The solution is to instead make a wizard, and take the Moonbow Initiate feat so you can use a bow as your implement.

If you want a striker, or a straightforward damaging class using a bow, then the answer is "there is always a better choice". The class is OK at dealing damage, but by no means great. It's on par with the hexblade and executioner, which are also fairly weak strikers.

[Yakk]

If you want a nature-themed without refluffing magic-bow class, the seeker does it.

I'd advise Hybrid Ranger|Seeker (Dex & Wis) even there.

I've done some fun things with Seeker basic attack and Ranger Hunter basic attack stuff. Many Seeker powers count as basic attacks; the Essentials Ranger has a burst hail of basic attack ability.

If you can get foes clustered into a 3x3 area, you can shoot each one and make them explode, damaging each other, getting an insane number of damage instances. (3x3 foes, the middle one can get tapped 9 times in a single standard action, but only static damage expression)

But almost all Seeker AOE abilities rely on foes adjacent to your target. And it has next to no ability to force adjacency. So the entire class falls apart once the DM adapts at all to "clumping together is a bad idea".

A lot of 4e optimization comes from putting together options that the designers didn't think fit together to get higher than expected returns. To this end, more options means more optimization; Seeker came from the last PHB, after which they mostly abandoned the class. There was no "primal power" for the seeker, and a shortage of Dragon mag content.

[Meta]

If you like making Ranged Basic Attacks, the Seeker is serviceable.

My favorite build is Avenger|Seeker.

You'll want a high strength and wisdom, using your hybrid talent to get the +1 to hit with thrown weapons and STR to AC. Then snag Distant Vengeance at level 2, and now you've got extremely accurate RBAs, that also become quite damaging as you pick some Paragon tier feats like Primal Eye and Painful Oath, in addition to the host of magic items that improve them. I enjoyed playing a Dwarf that throws Mordenkrads once you gain a couple of levels, but the build is entirely functional from level 1 onwards. Human would be another solid choice, especially as the third at-will really allows you to function in and out of melee if needed.

[MwaO]

Eh, they're not bad. They have a Dragon 413 article that greatly improved their choices and then they have just enough strong control powers to be meaningful. They don't really do the normal control options, but...
Tidal Shot is a solid at-will - area 1, slides

Encounters:
Flickering Arrow is a decent 'penalize attacks at a -2 within 6 of target' at 1st level.
Into the Black Bog is penalize damage for 2 targets
Feyjump Shot is swap and daze two targets if you hit them both.
Bonds of Moonlight is restrain two targets save ends
Wisp Shot is dazed, can't use Standard Actions, save ends.

Dailies
Swarming Bats is a big area attack that then gives you movable difficult terrain
Ensnaring Shot is a 'you're in the burst 1 zone and likely staying there'
Spider Thicket is an area 2 weakened+rearrange
Fey Sinkhole is a 'you're in the burst 1 zone and staying there
Captivating Missile is an RBA that dominates.

And then Inevitable Shot makes things interesting. So as an example, say there are three targets within 7 of each other - not too uncommon. You Feyjump Shot and teleport them 3 on a hit - so all are now in area 1 burst. Then you AP for Ensnaring Shot. Or you can move up and maybe push the guy with your minor into the burst 1 range and then you AP for Ensnaring Shot - but you also get to hit the guy you hit with an extra RBA of Biting Swarm, penalizing his attack. Once you do Ensnaring Shot, you can immobilize them all save ends each time their turn starts up. And as they're in burst 1 formation, repeatedly hit them with Tidal Shot as they struggle to get out of the zone and if you can, target opponents in such a way to try to get them in there too.

[MwaO]

If you like making Ranged Basic Attacks, the Seeker is serviceable.

My favorite build is Avenger|Seeker.

You'll want a high strength and wisdom, using your hybrid talent to get the +1 to hit with thrown weapons and STR to AC. Then snag Distant Vengeance at level 2, and now you've got extremely accurate RBAs, that also become quite damaging as you pick some Paragon tier feats like Primal Eye and Painful Oath, in addition to the host of magic items that improve them. I enjoyed playing a Dwarf that throws Mordenkrads once you gain a couple of levels, but the build is entirely functional from level 1 onwards. Human would be another solid choice, especially as the third at-will really allows you to function in and out of melee if needed.

And in the Expect Table Variation zone. Seeker powers are not Avenger Melee Powers and access to options do not have to provide benefits.

[Meta]

And in the Expect Table Variation zone. Seeker powers are not Avenger Melee Powers and access to options do not have to provide benefits.

I assume you're referring to Distant Vengeance? The relevant text for those who don't know it offhand:
"you gain the benefit of your oath of enmity on all ranged basic attacks against your oath of enmity target."

Hybrid oath doesn't mention melee attacks only, it's avenger and avenger PP attacks, but I get what you're saying. Unless they changed it after PHB3.

It seems reasonably clear cut as 'specific beats general,' but sure, always good to check with your DM.

[Yakk]

Aside

One thing I find missing from 4e controllers is a controller class feature. "It is in the powers" only gets so far.

Imagine a seeker with a set of features tied to "creatures offering cover to your target" (and while we are at it, the seeker suffers no penalty for cover).

Then, inevidible shot would consider creatures offering cover as if you where at the first target's location.

You'd be drawing lines crossing the battlefield, and restricting enemy options that way.

One could even have "magnetic arrow: slide up to 1d4 creatures 2 squares to a square that would offer cover on your target", that pulls foes into lines for you to exploit.

Others can slow/immobalize/ignight/prone/daze/stun/dominate (!)/etc.

[MwaO]

I assume you're referring to Distant Vengeance? The relevant text for those who don't know it offhand:
"you gain the benefit of your oath of enmity on all ranged basic attacks against your oath of enmity target."

Hybrid oath doesn't mention melee attacks only, it's avenger and avenger PP attacks, but I get what you're saying. Unless they changed it after PHB3.

It seems reasonably clear cut as 'specific beats general,' but sure, always good to check with your DM.

"The power functions as normal, except that you can apply the effect only when you make a melee attack using an avenger power or an avenger paragon path power."

That's the text from both compendium and PHB3.

That makes it specific vs. specific, not specific vs. general - both hybrid Oath and Distant Vengeance are modifying Oath of Enmity. And there's a reading which allows both specifics to work. Namely, the benefit of Hybrid Oath of Enmity on a non-melee and/or non-Avenger power is nothing. Distant Vengeance allows you to gain that benefit. Which is nothing.

[Meta]

You're right, I double checked it too quickly and read censure's "avenger powers and PP powers," instead of oaths.

I feel like the feat is more specific, but I get your interpretation.

Player builds a character and has this feature. Player reads PHB2 and sees how it normally works. But then there's a restriction. Okay, no problem. Later on in their career, they take a feat that allows them to use their feature in new way.

Take feat -> class feature works in new way.