Breaking it to a poor DM

[Jack_McSnatch]

Sooo... I have a friend, who is running a game, and... it's pretty bad. It's definitely not the worst game I'very ever played, but... well, he's not so much tripping over DM hurdles as he is barreling headlong into them like an angry, confused bull. Allow me to explain.

He's really into the realms. He's read every forgotten realms book ever, and Elminster is probably his favorite fictional character. You may have already figured out the problem here, but there's more. He's running us through this "epic" story of his, wherein we are psionic students at an Academy Elminster runs alongside Blackstaff. The Time of Troubles happens, followed like a week later by the spellplague. Elminster had his powers stolen by a demon, who deposited the soul in the nine hells of baator. no, that was not a typo, I said demon. We've successfully returned his powers, and now we have to go to thay cause Szass Tam apparently stole the body while we were ****ing around in hell.

Now, the completely messed up history, cosmology, and twisted confusing nonsense is actually kinda fun... until DM breaks out the inescapable cutscene. He does one of these every other game session, in which we encounter some important npc of the realms, who does our job for us, or we run into completely original gods like the" father of monsters" or the "prince of hell." Dunno if they have actual names or not, all we get are these titles. They appear, whereupon the DM asks for a save, which you WILL fail, regardless of whether or not you get a natural 20, you fail. I would say it's worse than giving us no choice in the matter, cause he's giving us the ILLUSION of choice. A thinly veiled illusion at that. He's made up plot points that are immediately lost to the wayside, keeps introducing ill fated, broken mechanics to "make the game more interesting," and... well, it's cringe worthy. He's a great guy, he's fun to game with, he does have good ideas, and it's clear he'd like to tell a story. I mean, I'm by no means a master story teller, some of my earlier campaigns hit similar pitfalls, but he doesn't even think he's hitting pitfalls. He thinks he's been telling the next lord of the rings, and while I really, really don't want to put his story down, or put him off DMing, I would also very much like my player agency. I want to feel like my character is having actual impact on the world, rather than feeling like a second string side character in the unwritten book of Elminster. What do? Should I just continue on in silence, letting my character exist as some mook, or should I try to explain that inescapable cutscenes, while fine in a video game, shouldn't be anywhere near tabletop?

[JNAProductions]

Sooo... I have a friend, who is running a game, and... it's pretty bad. It's definitely not the worst game I'very ever played, but... well, he's not so much tripping over DM hurdles as he is barreling headlong into them like an angry, confused bull. Allow me to explain.

He's really into the realms. He's read every forgotten realms book ever, and Elminster is probably his favorite fictional character. You may have already figured out the problem here, but there's more. He's running us through this "epic" story of his, wherein we are psionic students at an Academy Elminster runs alongside Blackstaff. The Time of Troubles happens, followed like a week later by the spellplague. Elminster had his powers stolen by a demon, who deposited the soul in the nine hells of baator. no, that was not a typo, I said demon. We've successfully returned his powers, and now we have to go to thay cause Szass Tam apparently stole the body while we were ****ing around in hell.

Now, the completely messed up history, cosmology, and twisted confusing nonsense is actually kinda fun... until DM breaks out the inescapable cutscene. He does one of these every other game session, in which we encounter some important npc of the realms, who does our job for us, or we run into completely original gods like the" father of monsters" or the "prince of hell." Dunno if they have actual names or not, all we get are these titles. They appear, whereupon the DM asks for a save, which you WILL fail, regardless of whether or not you get a natural 20, you fail. I would say it's worse than giving us no choice in the matter, cause he's giving us the ILLUSION of choice. A thinly veiled illusion at that. He's made up plot points that are immediately lost to the wayside, keeps introducing ill fated, broken mechanics to "make the game more interesting," and... well, it's cringe worthy. He's a great guy, he's fun to game with, he does have good ideas, and it's clear he'd like to tell a story. I mean, I'm by no means a master story teller, some of my earlier campaigns hit similar pitfalls, but he doesn't even think he's hitting pitfalls. He thinks he's been telling the next lord of the rings, and while I really, really don't want to put his story down, or put him off DMing, I would also very much like my player agency. I want to feel like my character is having actual impact on the world, rather than feeling like a second string side character in the unwritten book of Elminster. What do? Should I just continue on in silence, letting my character exist as some mook, or should I try to explain that inescapable cutscenes, while fine in a video game, shouldn't be anywhere near tabletop?

Talk to him. Explain that he's got cool ideas, but they're coming out poorly. Explain your grievances, and, if you're not having fun, let him know you won't be playing with him unless the issues are addressed.

If you are having fun, despite all the flaws, then still talk to him and try to get them addressed, but don't quit. Fun is what matters, in the end.

[Darth Ultron]

What do? Should I just continue on in silence, letting my character exist as some mook, or should I try to explain that inescapable cutscenes, while fine in a video game, shouldn't be anywhere near tabletop?

Say something.

I recomend strong, harsh and honest....but if you want to do luck warm, nice and politically correct then do it that way..

[JNAProductions]

Say something.

I recomend strong, harsh and honest....but if you want to do luck warm, nice and politically correct then do it that way..

What does politically correct have to do with this? At all? I'm going to assume that being honest with his friend doesn't involve racial slurs, unless something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

I'll echo the sentiment of honesty, but not harshness. You can be perfectly polite and friendly while honestly pointing out someone's mistakes.

[Geddy2112]

I second telling him politely, but frankly, your greviences with the campaign.

A good way to break it easy is to start by telling him the things that you like and the things he is doing right, before letting him know you have no interest in his god NPC cutscenes.

[Zanos]

He's really into the realms. He's read every forgotten realms book ever, and Elminster is probably his favorite fictional character. You may have already figured out the problem here, but there's more. He's running us through this "epic" story of his, wherein we are psionic students at an Academy Elminster runs alongside Blackstaff. The Time of Troubles happens, followed like a week later by the spellplague. Elminster had his powers stolen by a demon, who deposited the soul in the nine hells of baator. no, that was not a typo, I said demon. We've successfully returned his powers, and now we have to go to thay cause Szass Tam apparently stole the body while we were ****ing around in hell.
http://i.imgur.com/kFqHcuC.jpg

He might have flipped through the pages while looking at them, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't read any of them.

[frogglesmash]

I agree with everyone saying you should be honest with the guy, but I have a couple further pieces of advice.

1. Before you tell him what you feel is wrong with his campaign, be very clear with him that you don't think he's a bad DM, but an inexperienced DM. This will hopefully set a more constructive tone for the following discussion.

2. Don't air all your grievances at once, he probably won't remember half of them, and it'll be a major downer for him. Instead address problems 1 or 2 at a time, as they arise.

3. Don't air your grievances during play, it'll just disrupt gameplay, and make him more likely to react defensively.

4. If possible suggest potential solutions for problems you are pointing out.

[Yahzi]

explain that inescapable cutscenes, while fine in a video game, shouldn't be anywhere near tabletop?
Point him to Kindle Unlimited (or better, Royal Road, Gravity Tales, Fictionpress, etc.).

Cut-scenes belong in a novel, not a game. He can write a novel and lots of people will read it and enjoy it. :smallbiggrin:

[BWR]

If a polite, serious discussion doesn't appeal to you (I strongly recommend ignoring Darth Ultron's 'advice'), just link him to this thread. It will avoid the problems of a face to face and give him time to react and think about it on his own.
These things are generally best handled in person but sometimes a concisely written post can work wonders.

[Fouredged Sword]

I, as a DM, use cut scenes. They are very useful when you want the party to go in a specific direction and not completely derail the plot. As a player I hate them.

Luckily I have found a solution. I use the token system suggested in M&M. If you, as DM, want the players to fail at something enough to force the issue you can. Be honest about it. Don't ask them to roll and then fudge the numbers. That's just dishonest. Dishonesty is bad. As a DM you can be deceptive, sneaky even, but you should never be dishonest. A plot twist is not the same as changing the rules of the game behind your player's back.

So the solution is to not be dishonest. Just say "So and so casts spell X, you all have Y happen. This is fate, here is your fate token." Fate tokens can be used to automatically roll a 20 (Or force an enemy to roll a 1) on any d20 roll. Need a crit or to make a save, well you have fate on your side.

This does three things. First, it rewards your players with a bribe whenever they let you get away with taking away agency from them. I had a player who bought a vaporal scythe and would go "Woop! Cut scene!" whenever it happened because it gave her an autokill every damn time and she loved it. Second, it keeps things fair. If you force the players to all roll 1's then you let them force the game to give them a 20 when THEY want one in return. The third thing it does it cause you, as DM to stop and think before you throw in a cutscene that forces player failure. If your players start building up fate points faster than they spend them you should slow down. If you let the points build up too much the party WILL stomp all over an encounter at some point and you deserve it because you stomped all over them repeatedly.

[jdizzlean]

when i first made an attempt to dm back in the day, i was very linear about the story line. I had no back ups for when the PC's invariably broke my mold and i would force them back into it simply by it being done to them while they sleep by a sorceror or some other malarky. it sounds an awful lot like your dm wants you to follow a specific story line, and also has no contingencies in place for when you also invariably dont.

[Jack_McSnatch]

I strongly recommend ignoring Darth Ultron's 'advice'

His name is 'Darth Ultron.' If I were dumb enough to take advice from a robot sith, I'd likely be dead. Come to think of it, how can a robot be a Darth? He'd have no access to the force.

Anyway back on topic, thank you for the advice everybody. I think I know how to deal with this now.

[Jack_McSnatch]

I, as a DM, use cut scenes. They are very useful when you want the party to go in a specific direction and not completely derail the plot. As a player I hate them.

Luckily I have found a solution. I use the token system suggested in M&M. If you, as DM, want the players to fail at something enough to force the issue you can. Be honest about it. Don't ask them to roll and then fudge the numbers. That's just dishonest. Dishonesty is bad. As a DM you can be deceptive, sneaky even, but you should never be dishonest. A plot twist is not the same as changing the rules of the game behind your player's back.

So the solution is to not be dishonest. Just say "So and so casts spell X, you all have Y happen. This is fate, here is your fate token." Fate tokens can be used to automatically roll a 20 (Or force an enemy to roll a 1) on any d20 roll. Need a crit or to make a save, well you have fate on your side.

This does three things. First, it rewards your players with a bribe whenever they let you get away with taking away agency from them. I had a player who bought a vaporal scythe and would go "Woop! Cut scene!" whenever it happened because it gave her an autokill every damn time and she loved it. Second, it keeps things fair. If you force the players to all roll 1's then you let them force the game to give them a 20 when THEY want one in return. The third thing it does it cause you, as DM to stop and think before you throw in a cutscene that forces player failure. If your players start building up fate points faster than they spend them you should slow down. If you let the points build up too much the party WILL stomp all over an encounter at some point and you deserve it because you stomped all over them repeatedly.

I think I'm gonna show him this. Pardon my ignorance, but what is M&M, besides candy coated chocolate?

[jdizzlean]

I think I'm gonna show him this. Pardon my ignorance, but what is M&M, besides candy coated chocolate?


I'm gonna guess mutants and masterminds, it's a superhero/comic based RPG

[Gildedragon]

I, as a DM, use cut scenes. They are very useful when you want the party to go in a specific direction and not completely derail the plot. As a player I hate them.

Luckily I have found a solution. I use the token system suggested in M&M. If you, as DM, want the players to fail at something enough to force the issue you can. Be honest about it. Don't ask them to roll and then fudge the numbers. That's just dishonest. Dishonesty is bad. As a DM you can be deceptive, sneaky even, but you should never be dishonest. A plot twist is not the same as changing the rules of the game behind your player's back.

So the solution is to not be dishonest. Just say "So and so casts spell X, you all have Y happen. This is fate, here is your fate token." Fate tokens can be used to automatically roll a 20 (Or force an enemy to roll a 1) on any d20 roll. Need a crit or to make a save, well you have fate on your side.

This does three things. First, it rewards your players with a bribe whenever they let you get away with taking away agency from them. I had a player who bought a vaporal scythe and would go "Woop! Cut scene!" whenever it happened because it gave her an autokill every damn time and she loved it. Second, it keeps things fair. If you force the players to all roll 1's then you let them force the game to give them a 20 when THEY want one in return. The third thing it does it cause you, as DM to stop and think before you throw in a cutscene that forces player failure. If your players start building up fate points faster than they spend them you should slow down. If you let the points build up too much the party WILL stomp all over an encounter at some point and you deserve it because you stomped all over them repeatedly.

This is pretty good.
Might steal it next time I DM a fleshandblood group

[Jack_McSnatch]

I'm gonna guess mutants and masterminds, it's a superhero/comic based RPG

Huh. I've played that system even. I don't know why that didn't come to mind. Thank you

[Braininthejar2]

This is so much nicer than me and my group. :smallsmile:

Last time we had a bad DM, we started pointing out plot holes in-character...

[PacMan2247]

Maybe it's a little hackneyed, but I've always been a fan of the criticism sandwich: you tell them something they're doing right, something that needs to be fixed, and then something that's good again. If you can't find a second good thing, and you're struggling to decide which bad thing to use, it's often time to cut your losses. I've been on both sides of it, and it does help to soften a blow and then to remind the person that you're having this conversation because they're worth it to you.

[John Longarrow]

For myself, I don't use cut scenes and I don't force the characters to follow a script. I've been in too many games that run that way and I've found running a sandbox gives much more interesting stories.

I'd talk to your DM and explain one thing that hasn't been brought up; what your characters want to do. Not the players mind you, the characters. In the game I'm running they've decided to go on an ocean voyage to seek out the best brewing equipment they can buy. How many modules, dungeons, or adventure paths are that personally rewarding?