"Dragon Arrows"

[SangoProduction]

So, let's say there's an area that's particularly plagued by "dragon swarms", but really just does not want to leave for whatever reason. Is there any resource they can use to penetrate dragon's hide? They certainly don't "want" to be in melee with a napalm-spewing lizard from hell. In fact, they'd probably be using ballistas when they can manage it.

But regardless, that hide is really tough, and offers a lot of protection. What ways are there around it for relatively "non-spellcaster-y" peoples?

EDIT: This is intended for 3.5, but as this is all theoretical, I wouldn't mind hearing pathfinder solutions.

[Vizzerdrix]

Depends on the DR. Ranged has a bit of trouble getting around DR without investment. Id say dip peerless archer for ranged power attack. If Im remembering it right, it will also allow enchanting arrows without being a caster so they can combine RPA with bane. Tack on alchemy arrows and capsules with a naturaly high str score and large size and now you are doing enough damage to get their attention.

[Coidzor]

So in Pathfinder, Red Dragons have DR 5/Magic at Young Adult and it goes up two age categories later to DR 10/Magic at Mature Adult. In 3.5, all Chromatic and Metallic Dragons get the same DR 5/Magic at Y.Adult and DR 10/Magic at M.Adult.

So Ballistas should be doing enough damage to give Young Adult Red Dragons a bad day if they're being silly enough to tank hits from massed artillery.

If you're working in Pathfinder, then the Stone Discus spell creates permanent stone with the property of eventually bypassing various types of DR, including DR/Magic, with a high enough CL.

Develop a way to spam that at the necessary CL and spam Fabricate or Stone Shape and you could make throwing stones, stone sling bullets, stone cannon balls, stone shot, and possibly stone tips for arrows and bolts. Or, depending upon how intact the discus is after striking its target, craft it into things mundanely.

[SangoProduction]

I'm talking more about penetrating their natural armor. lol. But yeah. Dealing tiny amounts of damage, ignoring natural armor is probably not that helpful. The peerless archer thing is probably something most of the people aspire to be. That is a good one.

Oh. They have DR as well. Well, that makes sense, honestly.

[5ColouredWalker]

So... Best way to make them 'touch attacks'.

Have them use Arrows with the tips replaced by either Alchemists Fire or Acid... Or some other damaging flask. Doesn't actually exist but would work as a homebrewed weapon for the region.

[Coidzor]

Not that many ways to non-magically boost the attack bonus of a ballista, alas.

Ballista: 3d8, avg. 13.5 damage
Average roll will not damage Very Old+ Dragons, does only minor damage to Mature Adult+ Dragons.

Medium creature has -4 to attack with one.

Light Catapult: 4d6, avg. 14 damage
Average roll will not damage Very Old+ Dragons, does only minor damage to Mature Adult+ Dragons.

Heavy Catapult: 6d6, avg. 21 damage
Average roll will damage even Great Wyrm Dragons, although it is very minor damage.

Catapult: DC 15 check w/BAB, Int, and modifiers. Cannot crit, and have a DC 15 Reflex save for half damage.

Thankfully Dragons don't have great Dexterity, but they're still going to basically auto-pass the save from Mature Adult onward due to Dragon HD.

Warrior 1 w/ Int 15: +3 to hit DC 15
45% chance to hit on first attack regardless of AC

With direct line of sight, chance to hit increases by 10% per miss to a maximum of a 95% chance of hitting on the 6th+ attack.

With spotter, chance to hit increases by 5% per miss to a maximum of a 70% chance of hitting on the 6th+ attack.

Has a 1 round interval between attacks it can make.

Black Dragons: AC 15(Wyrmling), 17(V.Young), 19 (Young), 22(Juvenile), 24(Y.Adult), 27(Adult), 29(M.Adult)

NPC Warrior 1 w/ Dex 15: -1 to hit w/Ballista
Has to roll 16+ to hit Wyrmling, 18+ to hit V.Young, and has to roll a nat 20 to hit Young+.


Blue Dragons: AC 16(Wyrmling), 18(v.Young), 21(Young), 23(Juvenile), 26(Y.Adult), 28(Adult), 31(M.Adult)

NPC Warrior 1 w/ Dex 15: -1 to hit w/Ballista
Has to roll 17+ to hit Wyrmling, 19+ to hit V.Young, and has to roll a nat 20 to hit Young+.


Green Dragons: see Black Dragons, increase Young, Y.Adult, and M.Adult ACs by 1.


Red Dragons: See Blue Dragons, increase Juvenile, Adult, and M.Adult ACs by 1.


White Dragons: AC 14(Wyrmling), 16(V.Young), 18(Young), 21(Juvenile), 23(Y.Adult), 26(Adult), 28(M.Adult)

NPC Warrior 1 w/ Dex 15: -1 to hit w/Ballista
Has to roll 15+ to hit Wyrmling, 17+ to hit V.Young, 19+ to hit Young, and has to roll a nat 20 to hit Juvenile+.

[Fouredged Sword]

3.5 had rules for volley fire that allowed for one skilled archer to lead a ton of mook archers to deal a lot of damage in a single attack. Your archery captain is a high dex elite array with weapon focus and every other attack booster you can find. Everyone else is just skilled enough to hit the low check to match his shot.

You do much less damage than if you fired the arrows all individually, but you deal it all at once (to bypass DR) and with a single attack roll at the highest attack bonus (bypassing high armor).

A weapon oil of magic weapon or adept with the magic weapon spell can resolve the DR magic issue. Enchant a quiver and pass the arrows out one each for a 50 person volley. It's cheaper than buying everyone +1 bows. Though, that said, a dragonbane ballista would not go wrong. That said, a mobile formation that can fire from outside the dragons double move distance and retreat into breath weapon proof medium sized accessible bunkers to hide when the dragon get's close may last longer than a weapon that the dragon can simply tear up and fly off with.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I wonder if we can safely work dirigables and ornithopters ( from a&eg) into this.

[SangoProduction]

3.5 had rules for volley fire that allowed for one skilled archer to lead a ton of mook archers to deal a lot of damage in a single attack. Your archery captain is a high dex elite array with weapon focus and every other attack booster you can find. Everyone else is just skilled enough to hit the low check to match his shot.

You do much less damage than if you fired the arrows all individually, but you deal it all at once (to bypass DR) and with a single attack roll at the highest attack bonus (bypassing high armor).

A weapon oil of magic weapon or adept with the magic weapon spell can resolve the DR magic issue. Enchant a quiver and pass the arrows out one each for a 50 person volley. It's cheaper than buying everyone +1 bows. Though, that said, a dragonbane ballista would not go wrong. That said, a mobile formation that can fire from outside the dragons double move distance and retreat into breath weapon proof medium sized accessible bunkers to hide when the dragon get's close may last longer than a weapon that the dragon can simply tear up and fly off with.

good points

[khadgar567]

I am gonna aproch our lizard problem from spheres of might perspective with oversized weapons , arrow spit, pinning barrage, head shot, perfect shot, targetted assault talent i can shoot them dragons from quite a range and each getting large heavy cross bow damage and with some steel forge love to this combo by buying whinder and reloading clip one i can non stop shoot them for few turns

[Darrin]

Coat the arrowheads with blister oil (Races of Stone). You get a bunch of applications for a relatively low cost (1d8 applications for 15 GP), and you can stack applications up to an arbitrarily high Xd4 damage. The Fort save is mostly ignorable for dragons (DC 15), but presumably you're firing a lot of arrows at once... for every 20 arrows, odds are the dragon is going to roll a '1' on at least one of those.

Now, there may be some rules quibbling about what happens to the arrows after they hit. You may argue that since the arrow is still embedded in the flesh of the dragon, it has to make a Fort save every subsequent round until the arrow is removed. But there are two problems with this: 1) The Blister Oil entry doesn't really discuss what happens on subsequent rounds, so it's not clear if the Fort save is made for every round of contact or just the initial round. And 2), RAW says the arrow is destroyed when it hits a target. So even if the blister oil forces Fort saves on multiple rounds, the object it was on no longer exists, so there's no reason to make a Fort save. The solution here is mostly just fire more arrows until the dragon blows a Fort save. Or switch to harpoons, which explicitly stay embedded until removed.

[Gildedragon]

For +5gp per arrow: making them of Cyrite will overcome DR v Magic.

Coating them with a contact poison is handy too: eventually the dragon will roll a 1
Hitting is easy: v touch AC

[Fouredged Sword]

For +5gp per arrow: making them of Cyrite will overcome DR v Magic.

Coating them with a contact poison is handy too: eventually the dragon will roll a 1
Hitting is easy: v touch AC

Arrows only work for one shot before breaking. That means it is cheaper to use a potion of magic weapon to get a 1gp per arrow stack. The +1 to hit and damage adds up to a large bonus, the damage especially for volley fire.

I think the "best" method is for a small battalion of specially trained dragonslayer halflings to pull this off. They can stack 4 to a square. You have 200 or so of them and they operate in two formations of 100 halflings. They form a square of 25' x25'. The halflings are equipped with two sets of equipment. First you have your archer halflings. These fellows are wielding the exotic weapon greatbows for maximum damage. The second set are wielding tower shields and carrying extra tower shields on their backs up to their maximum encumbrance. Each corner of the formation has three shield carriers and one archer. Each edge has two shield carriers and two archers. All interior squares have 1 shield carrier and 3 archers.

Each block can fire a 55 arrow volley. The shielders stand ready with readied actions to provide full cover with their tower shields. If the dragon attempts to attack a group they throw up total cover in all directions but down and turtle. They can't attack, but the dragon must laboriously break their tower shields. While they are doing this the second formation 350ft away is attacking the dragon with volley fire. They are within bow range but outside a double move for the dragon so he cannot charge them.

It is then a race between the dragon blasting the formations to break their shields and the volley fire killing the dragon. A big enough dragon can tank the attacks and full attack enough to cut holes in the formation enough to kill it. It is stuck killing a few people a round with full attacks because the tower shields can absorb the full attack or breath weapon and then be dropped and replaced with a carried shield. The dragon needs to deal enough damage to break the tower shield and still have enough attacks to kill the halfling behind it or else the halfling just pulls out a new shield the next round.

All in all it is likely the most cost effective way to kill an adult dragon you can find. It takes maybe a few thousand gold and requires no high level characters. You need two archers with good attack bonuses, but a fighter 3 seems like an ideal fit.

This fails the first dragon with a breath weapon powerful enough to kill the formation wholesale despite the tower shields. At that point you really need an invisible ubercharger on a flying mount to kill the dragon first before it can attack. The halfling formations are then just bait.

[Fizban]

A weapon oil of magic weapon or adept with the magic weapon spell can resolve the DR magic issue. Enchant a quiver and pass the arrows out one each for a 50 person volley.
Basic Magic Weapon only has a single target, you need Greater Magic Weapon to do the 50 arrow split, or Metaphysical Weapon.

Interesting how Blister Oil doesn't have any notes whatsoever regarding offensive use, you'd think they'd have acknowledged it one way or another. The words "bare skin" can be used against this plan since the goal is to deal with scaly natural armor, scales not being skin. Fishing for 1's to get 2 points of damage is expensive even at that price.

I maintain the same things I suggested in the other thread. The most lethal substance you can throw at a living creature aside from Voidstone is Green Slime. Other than that, stockpiles of contact poison such as the infamous Black Lotus extract, which as a plant should be farmable except for the whole point of it being expensive because it's super-rare, which it wouldn't be if it was farmable.

Rimefire Ice deals cold damage on contact, but it also vaporizes at room temperature and specifies either on hit or per round of contact. Stygian Ice deals 1d6 with a will save to prevent a further 2 wisdom damage, but still melts at room temperature (and is much more expensive), though the melting also produces a sickening effect. Nets with bits of Stygian Ice in them could be good, but they're expensive, short range, and would be destroyed quickly, so not so good.

The problem is that no matter what nifty substance you come up with, if it's not an existing item with a delivery method you have to fiat the delivery method anyway. There is no non-magical source of bow range touch attack. The Gnome Calculus gives precedent for launching flasks, historical ballistae launched stones before they had ballista bolts, but launching a pot of slime is still fiat. Contact poison can be delivered via a weapon or a touch attack, but putting it on an arrow would be a weapon, so allowing that to work with a ranged touch attack is still fiat.

[Calthropstu]

Launching flaming pitch would work on any dragon not immune to fire.
Launching acid would work against those not immune to acid.
Firing nets large enough to entangle a dragon is also an option.
Portable hole/bag of holding attached to a ballista bolt (or planeshift spells) will send the dragon away.
Allied/Hired/summoned/enslaved giants can hurl boulders.
Allied mounted flyers can take the fight to the skies, bombarding with acid/alchemist fires.

[Zanos]

The concentrated volley rules say that the leader makes an attack roll against DC 20 using their intelligence modifier, and the creature in the targeted square is hit once for damage equal to 1/5th of the arrows in the volley. They get a DC 15 reflex save to half damage, with some modifiers. Maximum team size is 10 archers.

So a setup like this is probably good:
Archer Captain
Any +2 Int Race Warrior 4 w/Elite Array
Str 13 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 17 Wis 10 Cha 8
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Archer
Human Warrior 1 w/Standard Array
Str 12 Dex 13 Con 11 Int 9 Wis 10 Cha 8
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot

Composite Longbows with +1 str mod.
Oils of magic weapon are, obviously, quite helpful.

Not much else really matters. The higher you can get the captain the better, the only critical aspect is that he has good BAB and good Intelligence. Rapid shot effectively doubles our damage here, so it's pretty important for everyone.

So a 10 man squad as above has the captain roll a +7 vs DC 20, admittedly not great. On a success the target takes 4d8+4 damage with a DC 15 reflex save to half. 22 average damage isn't bad. If the dragon makes the save, and dragons are notoriously bad at reflex saves, it should overcome the DR enough to give the dragon some pause.

With oils of magic weapon, or some 5th level wizards with rods of lesser chaining, we can outfit our wannabe dragonslayers with some +1 arrows or bows, upping the damage to 4d8+8, the DC to 16, and make it overcome the dragon's DR/Magic.

Desirable adjustments are to make these guys fighters instead of archers, which gives them an extra feat they could spend on grabbing bonebows or greatbows, increasing the damage to 4d10+8. A higher level captain increases the chance to actually hit, and better GMW applications of course add more damage.

These squads aren't exactly super potent on their own, and a dragon strafing a city with it's breath weapon is going to give it a bad time, but a moderately well defended outpost should be able to drive off some lesser dragons, if not kill them. A juvenile red dragon against, say, 10 of the above such squads is going to take 4d8+8(26) damage 4 (40% chance to hit) times. The dragon has a 75% chance to make the save for half damage, so we've got .25(26*4)+.75*.5(26*4) = 65 damage average per round of fire. The dragon's only got 168 HP, so this gives him some second thoughts.

[Gildedragon]

Pelting with sleep smoke or other unconsciousness poisons will render the dragon helpless against a lot of things

[Darrin]

Pelting with sleep smoke or other unconsciousness poisons will render the dragon helpless against a lot of things

Nope. Dragon type is immune to sleep and paralysis effects.

[Zanos]

Nope. Dragon type is immune to sleep and paralysis effects.
Magical sleep, so sleep poison should work okay.

[Coidzor]

So a 10 man squad as above has the captain roll a +7 vs DC 20, admittedly not great. On a success the target takes 4d8+4 damage with a DC 15 reflex save to half. 22 average damage isn't bad. If the dragon makes the save, and dragons are notoriously bad at reflex saves, it should overcome the DR enough to give the dragon some pause.

Touch AC, yeah, but Reflex Saves? They have All Good Saves, and by the time they're big enough to be taking on cities, they have very good odds of success.

Dragons vs. DC 15 Reflex


Black Dragon:
Passes on a 10 as Very Young
Passes on a 5 as Young Adult
Passes on a 2 as Mature Adult

Blue Dragon:
Passes on a 10 as Wyrmling
Passes on a 6 as Juvenile(4 as Young Adult)
Passes on a 2 as Mature Adult

Green Dragon:
Passes on an 11 as Wyrmling(9 as Very Young)
Passes on a 5 as Young Adult
Passes on a 2 as Mature Adult

Red Dragon:
Passes on a 10 as Wyrmling
Passes on a 5 as Juvenile
Passes on a 2 as Adult

White Dragon:
Passes on a 10 as Very Young
Passes on a 6 as Young Adult (4 as Adult)
Passes on a 2 as Old

Brass Dragon:
Pass on 10 as Very Young
Pass on 5 as Young Adult
Pass on 2 as Mature Adult

Bronze Dragon:
Pass on 10 as Wyrmling
Pass on 6 as Juvenile (4 as Young Adult)
Pass on 2 as Mature Adult

Copper Dragon:
Pass on 11 as Wyrmling (9 as Very Young)
Pass on 5 as Young Adult
Pass on 2 as Mature Adult

Gold Dragon:
Pass on 9 as Wyrmling
Pass on 5 as Juvenile
Pass on 2 as Adult

Silver Dragon:
Pass on 10 as Wyrmling
Pass on 5 as Juvenile
Pass on 2 as Adult

[Zanos]

Touch AC, yeah, but Reflex Saves? They have All Good Saves, and by the time they're big enough to be taking on cities, they have very good odds of success.
They have all good saves but their dex never increases, unlike their Con and Wis. Still true, but it isn't save for none, it's save for half. And an actual city should have more than 100 archers. Of course, powerful dragons also have spells and frightful presence. But barring specific spell selections you can actually bury a dragon in concentrated volleys imperial guard style (https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder25/38689025.jpg). The good thing about this method is that it roles against a flat DC(20), and even the dragon making it's roll doesn't negate the damage.

[Guizonde]

why not high-explosives? iirc, there is gun-powder available (at least in greyhawk). all you really need is lots of it. either toss a fuse in a barrel and catapult it, or set a trap. if i may recommend a trap, a live cow on top of 16 barrels of gunpowder will probably make a hungry dragon regret an easy meal. if you're feeling cruel, add nails to the barrels. if you're of a southern alignment, broken glass, rock salt, and a passing peasant with a torch should make any character lose a few "good points".

you could always use this mechanic to create "shaped arrows". you take an arrow, hollow out its body, fill with powder, and add a striker in its tip. if you don't have access to gunpowder, my bet would be ballistae, siege crossbows, or scorpion repeater ballistae.

(i suggest this because it's a mundane solution equivalent to a caster's favorite solution).

[khadgar567]

why not high-explosives? iirc, there is gun-powder available (at least in greyhawk). all you really need is lots of it. either toss a fuse in a barrel and catapult it, or set a trap. if i may recommend a trap, a live cow on top of 16 barrels of gunpowder will probably make a hungry dragon regret an easy meal. if you're feeling cruel, add nails to the barrels. if you're of a southern alignment, broken glass, rock salt, and a passing peasant with a torch should make any character lose a few "good points".

you could always use this mechanic to create "shaped arrows". you take an arrow, hollow out its body, fill with powder, and add a striker in its tip. if you don't have access to gunpowder, my bet would be ballistae, siege crossbows, or scorpion repeater ballistae.

(i suggest this because it's a mundane solution equivalent to a caster's favorite solution).
only setting i know have gunpowder is eberon and pathfinder which my build still works with cannon the only thing is class and level needed to fight the draco swarm

[Fouredged Sword]

You don't prevent a sufficiently old dragon from taking a city. You raise the levy and field an army to drive it away after the fact. An adult red dragon is a CR 15 threat. That is the sort of thing you have legends about and no mundane army is going to do more than make it actually plan before it smashes your forces flat.

But an adult red dragon is also legendarily rare. If you have swarms of dragons you are looking at maybe young at the oldest. Still young enough that they are on the prowl looking for territory to claim. A young red dragon can be threatened by sufficient numbers of archers. An adult red dragon will simply be invisible or such other silliness because while you are a mundane army HE is a low mid level caster. There is a point you really do need magic to fight magic.

For a wyrmling each volley is deadly dangerous. It only has an AC of 16, so direct attacks are likely the way to go, and it will die in about 15 arrows or so. A young dragon is about the limit of what I would expect a purely mundane force to be able to face. The game just has too much basic magic and equipment hurdles that are "You must be this tall to fight this monster" built in.

So basically in my mind, anything with access to fourth level spells is going to be a pain for a mundane millitary to fight if for no other reason than they will be swarmed with undead on top of the dragon due to that bringing animate dead into the equation.

[Gildedragon]

Hmmm v dragon swarms aligning oneself with a tougher dragon with tribute and vassalage is probably a good idea

[Lazymancer]

I'm assuming "non-spellcastery people" mean Warrior 6 and Expert 6 as the toughest characters, but what does "dragon swarm" mean? If we talking a bunch 10-20 year old dragons, they can be easily handled by militia.

Older dragons, however, are quite different.

First and foremost, I don't see them battling army on the terms of said army. Even the dumbest White is sufficiently bright by this time to understand that this is not the best idea. In fact, even most of wyrmlings will get the hint quite soon and will resort to organized raids on poorly defended villages instead of challenging humans directly, turning the whole situation into ****ing Vietnam. But that's beside the point.

The point is that old dragons are superior not only physically, but also mentally. Most are near or above genius-level by the old age.

I.e. if there is a lot of old dragons, why aren't those dragons ruling the local population already? Not to mention, it should take approximately 0.005 seconds for an adult Red to come up with the idea of subjugating locals.



... For Red, Brass, and Gold dragons, replace the bombs with acid flasks. But, you'll need to be playing Pathfinder to craft those without levels in spellcasting classes.
One of the less known tricks is to get caster level via spell-like abilities and thus qualify for Craft (Alchemy). FAQ says it should work.


only setting i know have gunpowder is eberon and pathfinder which my build still works with cannon the only thing is class and level needed to fight the draco swarm
Eberron quite explicitly doesn't have any gunpowder.

[Fouredged Sword]

I.e. if there is a lot of old dragons, why aren't those dragons ruling the local population already? Not to mention, it should take approximately 0.005 seconds for an adult Red to come up with the idea of subjugating locals.


Why? What use does a red dragon have for a bunch of humanoids? If the dragon has a use for those people they are likely already in charge. That said, unless you are doing something like digging up gems like good little kobolds the dragon likely has little use for you. Why subjugate people and then try to live on top of a population you cannot control? It takes a government to rule a kingdom and few dragons have the desire to run a government when it is easier just to take what they want.

And those who do want to rule have an easy enough time doing so. Note the numerous barbarian (white) lizardfolk (black or green) or kobold (all colors) kingdoms that answer to dragons.

[Lazymancer]

All this gold will not mine itself. And just because you aren't digging up gems right now doesn't mean you can't be made to. Or, at least, supply those who dig.

As for the reason to subjugate - because people are there where dragon is. That was the premise: dragons swarms in the populated area. OP was considering it from the persepctive of the local populace, while I consider it from the dragon's point of view: they will hardly recognize natives' right to govern themselves. It's not "we are guests here" mindset, but "there are untapped resources here". Consequently, the Red in question will not fly away to rule some distant barbarian/lizardfolk lands, but will do it where he is ... swarming.

And this means, the battlefield will hardly be limited to a bunch of archers/siege engineers making pin cushions out of dragons.

[Fizban]

They have all good saves but their dex never increases, unlike their Con and Wis. Still true, but it isn't save for none, it's save for half. And an actual city should have more than 100 archers. Of course, powerful dragons also have spells and frightful presence. But barring specific spell selections you can actually bury a dragon in concentrated volleys imperial guard style (https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder25/38689025.jpg). The good thing about this method is that it roles against a flat DC(20), and even the dragon making it's roll doesn't negate the damage.
You get one full-time guard per 100 people. You need 1,000 populaton per 10 archer group. Assuming they all have the right feats and assemble instantly, each 10 archer rapid shot group deals 2d8+2 after reflex, assuming they have magic arrows and their leader hits. Each leader has to hit AC 20, including the penalty for distance. That's a large popluation requirement and a lot of caveats.

The actual reliable solution is that all (or even just enough of) the highest level NPC in a city value the existence of their city, and respond to threats accordingly. Adventurers are hired for outside jobs, but there are more than enough high level NPCs (read: a dozen 10th+ level spellcasters) in a large city to turn back any individual threat that's not grossly out of their league or actually fighting smart. The only thing that threatens a city is an army with city-tier magical support.

Town and villages not so much, small cities maybe, but the maximum guardsmen in a small city is only 50-120. The 10-24d8 they could put out under perfect circumstances still isn't so impressive compared to the half dozen 7th+ level spellcasters that should be around. Towns and villages don't have enough guards or archers to do much of anything against a high AC threat that can wipe entire units.


Incidentally, the classic city threat is a dragon, but dragons are terrible at attacking cities. Big target, short range breath weapon, no or easy DR, only one energy immunity, no weapon use. Higher level demons and devils have DR/alignment that's way harder to pierce, multiple resistances and immunities, teleport at-will, can use longer range weapons and spell like abilities, and can often summon their own personal squad of similarly tough goons. Glabrezu have reverse gravity at will, Hezrou have 3 blasphemies per day, Vrocks have telekinesis and murder spores, Hellcats are naturally invisible, Bone Devils have it at-will, Gelugons have AoEs and walls and illusions, the Ekolid apocalypse is far more terrifying than wights, a Nabassu have a 30' negative level death gaze, Yochlol have dominate at-will, Steel Devils have greater command at-will, and even a Mezzoloth has cloudkill 2/day. Hellwasp Swarm will kill anyone who doesn't have buckets of holy water or acid actively in their hand ready to throw.

Material plane threats? Giants are way more dangerous, social creatures with siege level rock throwing and various magical breeds.

[Calthropstu]

Actually, when dragons were more numerous on faerun this actual scenario was more common.

There was a point in time where dragons ruled much of faerun directly. The elves rose to challenge them, ultimately winning out over the course of thousands of years of war.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think we are forgetting a consideration. The classic is the classic for a reason. A mid level fighter on a flying mount with a lance is a deadly threat to a dragon. A pegusus or gryphon knight can deal 100hp of damage in a charge. That is a real and deadly threat to just about anything that is out in the open air. 5 such knights can do a lot to defend a city without the need for a massive standing army.

[Zanos]

You get one full-time guard per 100 people. You need 1,000 populaton per 10 archer group. Assuming they all have the right feats and assemble instantly, each 10 archer rapid shot group deals 2d8+2 after reflex, assuming they have magic arrows and their leader hits. Each leader has to hit AC 20, including the penalty for distance. That's a large popluation requirement and a lot of caveats.
That doesn't seem like very many. Maybe I'm overestimating the size of medieval towns. In any case I'd imagine the ratio of guards to general population would be much higher in an area that's at constant threat of dragon attack. I don't think warrior 1 is exactly a full time guard, either.


The actual reliable solution is that all (or even just enough of) the highest level NPC in a city value the existence of their city, and respond to threats accordingly. Adventurers are hired for outside jobs, but there are more than enough high level NPCs (read: a dozen 10th+ level spellcasters) in a large city to turn back any individual threat that's not grossly out of their league or actually fighting smart. The only thing that threatens a city is an army with city-tier magical support.
Yes, but "a wizard did it" was explicitly NOT what the OP was looking for.

[Fouredged Sword]

That doesn't seem like very many. Maybe I'm overestimating the size of medieval towns. In any case I'd imagine the ratio of guards to general population would be much higher in an area that's at constant threat of dragon attack. I don't think warrior 1 is exactly a full time guard, either.


I don't think the comparison to medieval towns works very well. In medieval times towns didn't have guards. Cities had police under various names, but not really guards ether, not in the "protect from outside threats" sense. What you had was the local lord and his men, all nobility and their personal men at arms, and the levy. The basic idea is that every single man of adult age was expected to be able to fight. You could be a full time farmer, but you where expected to pick up a pike or bow when your lord called for a levy and march with everyone else.

You didn't have guards to defend the town. Everyone was expected to fight to defend the town.

Of course you also didn't have fire breathing horse sized lizard superweapons attacking, so I would expect a 3.5 town to have significantly more resources dedicated to survival.

[Fizban]

That doesn't seem like very many. Maybe I'm overestimating the size of medieval towns. In any case I'd imagine the ratio of guards to general population would be much higher in an area that's at constant threat of dragon attack. I don't think warrior 1 is exactly a full time guard, either.
You are most likely overestimating their size, yes. A medieval city of dnd metropolis size fits within a single square mile and is only about 12 times the size of a high school (of 2,000 or so students). 1:100 guards for dnd is actually more than the 1:150 number given on the web page I'm using.

Yes, but "a wizard did it" was explicitly NOT what the OP was looking for.
No mass magical production required, you're just having the existing elite class participate. Frankly I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree, but if you want dnd 3.5 answers the 3.5 DMG's class and level demographics make it clear that massed archers are in short supply and the towns small enough to need special measures can't afford most of them. The full time guards might be drawn from the PC classed ranks instead of the warriors, but they're still mostly 1st level. There's a reason people hire adventurers, and adventurer-tier NPCs that live in town are the town's greatest weapon by default.

I don't think the comparison to medieval towns works very well. In medieval times towns didn't have guards. . . You didn't have guards to defend the town. Everyone was expected to fight to defend the town.

Of course you also didn't have fire breathing horse sized lizard superweapons attacking, so I would expect a 3.5 town to have significantly more resources dedicated to survival.
Specifically the DMG says "full-time guard or soldier," with a further 1 in 20 being militia or conscriptable soldiers. The high level NPCs and their gear, many of whom will most likely be nobles or equivalent (born or retired adventurers in positions of power), as well as any adventurers (PCs) in the area, are those resources dedicated to survival.